What to say on the food?

truthseeker171

Salaam brother

Yes, correct, but it is said

6118
6118 So eat from that on which the name of Allah has been mentioned, if you indeed believe in His revelations.

6121
6121 And do not eat from that which the name of Allah has not been mentioned, for it is wickedness. And the devils they inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you are polytheists.

It is not for you, the Name has to be taken by the one who slaughters and it is compulsory as per 6121.

There seem to be two rulings

The one who slaughters (or may be milks) the animal should mention the name of God over the living animal - verse 2234.
The one who eats any food (meat, fish, bread, fruit, vegetables etc.) should mention the name of God over the food - verse 6118, 6121.

In verses 6118 and 6121 eating in general is mentioned not only the eating of meat.
Preferable to be safe than sorry.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Jafar

These are rulings from the Koran - it seems to be inappropriate to decide for oneself if it is important enough or not, to try to fulfil these orders from the Koran in the best way, in the way that the Koran prescribes.
It is adviced not to be sarcastic about verses of the Koran.

First I see no problems to be sarcastic / critical on anything... including the Quran.

Second I'm being sarcastic on your 'interpretation' of the verse.

Third Trying to debate / finding out the exact saying or uttered words on food is something which is menial / unimportant and meaningless, let's do a test.. what should happen with a mute person? He/she shouldn't ate any food?

Fourth Historically and culturally.. this verse might relates to the context of 'eating food dedicated / blessed to/with the idols' within arab paganism society. There are verses in torah and bible which forbid eating things sacrificed to the idols. Furthermore the bible also forbid eating meat from mis-treated animals, such as killed through strangulation or other painful death. The concept is All lives are holy, killing an animal for purpose of eating are allowable given you must seek a 'blessing' (and pardon) from those who created the life and you must ensure the process shall cause minimum pain to the animal. Tortured animal's meat and meat sacrificed to idols are forbidden to eat. (non-kosher)

Salam / Peace

truthseeker171

Third Trying to debate / finding out the exact saying or uttered words on food is something which is menial / unimportant and meaningless, let's do a test.. what should happen with a mute person? He/she shouldn't ate any food?

This could go anywhere
With this way of reasoning one could try to say that -salat- is unimportant because some persons are not able to do this because they are hindered mentally or physically.

The relevant verses of the Koran tell the believers clearly that the name of God has to be spoken on the food and on the to be slaughtered (and may be to be milked) animal. It is not up to the believers to decide which rulings of the Koran are important or not.

6118 - So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed acknowledge His signs. -

6121 - Do not eat from what God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile ? -

2234 - For every nation We have made a rite that they may mention God's name over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock ... -

The strong wording of verse 6121 indicates the importance of the ruling - it is a vile to eat from what the name of God has not been mentioned on.

For people who can not speak, other people who eat together with them could mention the name of God on the food.
For instance when a mute person eats alone, then following rule of verse 6145 is relevant

... Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Compassionate. -

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

san

"Well, food, i love you. Oh, and my cells, take what you need and leave what you don't. God bless y'all. Live forever.

om nom nom nom nom nom"

Rana

...If you really see a difference between "mentioning the name of God" and uttering "in the name of God".. ...

Peace everyone. Paradox Uncreated it does seem quite picky. I hope it's ok to say Bismillah as even my children do it. It's also something I enjoy because it means a lot to me to think of God before eating.

Rana

And thus,I agree totally with Paradox, that God is life, and that it is natural to mention his name and attributes,and to be in gratitude for his provisions that sustain us.

Nicely put sa`adah

Paradox_Uncreated

Peace everyone. Paradox Uncreated it does seem quite picky. I hope it's ok to say Bismillah as even my children do it. It's also something I enjoy because it means a lot to me to think of God before eating.

Well, God created you to worship him. To do that one needs to eat. So yes, it is in the name/cause of God.

Jafar

This could go anywhere
With this way of reasoning one could try to say that -salat- is unimportant because some persons are not able to do this because they are hindered mentally or physically.

Indeed... 'salat' is is NOT about the 'ritual bowing, kneeling and prostrating'.. it's meaningless
Salat is about 'commandment' or 'binding/attachment to the God's commandment'..
That's why the technicality of 'salat' is unexplained in the quran... (what to say, what's the move etc..)
All people with their limitation should be able to abide toward's God's commandment...

The rites itself are not important.. the COMMANDMENT IS!
Uphold the commandment.. uphold the commandment... uphold the commandment..
That's the consistent and common theme starting from Torah up to Quran... which again people had tendency to pay more details towards the menial and unimportant technicalities..

In the bible there are many more verbose statement such as..
I DESIRE COMPASSION NOT ANIMAL SACRIFICE (Hebrew Korban)
I DESIRE JUSTICE NOT BURNT OFFERINGS

And yet people continue to debate / discuss the technical details on how to offer sacrifice or burnt offerings.. which I say it again and again are menial and not important..

Salam / Peace

truthseeker171

Indeed... 'salat' is is NOT about the 'ritual bowing, kneeling and prostrating'.. it's meaningless
Salat is about 'commandment' or 'binding/attachment to the God's commandment'..
That's why the technicality of 'salat' is unexplained in the quran... (what to say, what's the move etc..)
All people with their limitation should be able to abide toward's God's commandment...

The rites itself are not important.. the COMMANDMENT IS!
Uphold the commandment.. uphold the commandment... uphold the commandment..
That's the consistent and common theme starting from Torah up to Quran... which again people had tendency to pay more details towards the menial and unimportant technicalities..

In the bible there are many more verbose statement such as..
I DESIRE COMPASSION NOT ANIMAL SACRIFICE (Hebrew Korban)
I DESIRE JUSTICE NOT BURNT OFFERINGS

And yet people continue to debate / discuss the technical details on how to offer sacrifice or burnt offerings.. which I say it again and again are menial and not important..

There is no need to choose between rituals or being just.
The Koran commands both one has to be a just monotheist and one has to perform some rituals, for instance the ritual washing before the prayer and the fasting of -shahr ramadan-.

One can show that one accepts the commandment from God if one takes the commandments of the Koran as serious as possible.
The Creator tells the believers that there are rites for the nations to uphold, as in verse 2234.

It depends on the context if -salat- means the bond with monotheism, or means the daily prayers connected to the prayertimes.
-Salat- is described in detail in the Koran - even how to - in case of danger.
The postures are there, if one does not take literal words only symbolical.
The text should be to remember God - that is a framework, here the believers have several ways to remember God in any language, as long as these ways are compatible with monotheism, with the Koran.

The commandment of the Koran is to follow the commandments of the Koran in detail when given, or act within the framework when it is given.
You may wonder why the ritual washing is given in detail in verse 443 and 56.

Following the Koran is not just a mind-set, we have to fill in this principle in detail when our Creator gives the details.
So it can be worthwhile to study verses in detail and try to act and live according to them - it seems not to be very hard.

Why you think following verses are in the Koran?
Just to discard them as unimportant?

6118 - So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed acknowledge His signs. -
6121 - Do not eat from what God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile ? -
2234 - For every nation We have made a rite that they may mention God's name over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock ... -

The clear command is to mention the name of God over the food and the relevant animal.
This is also a framework - there are many names of the God in many languages - so believers of different cultures can do this in their own way by expressing thanks to God while mentioning His name.
The important thing is within the framework of upholding monotheism is to follow the clear commands of the Koran - verse 6118 is one of them, the verse says - if you indeed acknowledge His signs. -

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

Peace everyone. Paradox Uncreated it does seem quite picky. I hope it's ok to say Bismillah as even my children do it. It's also something I enjoy because it means a lot to me to think of God before eating.

The believers who intend to follow the Koran alone have a change to check if the traditions that have emerged during the years are correct or not.
The usage of saying -bismiLlah- without being directly inspirated by our Creator seems not to be based on the Koran, it literally means that one speaks or acts -in the name of God-

It is very easy to say a name of God on the food according to verse 6118, while saying grace to God before the meal.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Rana

The believers who intend to follow the Koran alone have a change to check if the traditions that have emerged during the years are correct or not.
The usage of saying -bismiLlah- without being directly inspirated by our Creator seems not to be based on the Koran, it literally means that one speaks or acts -in the name of God-

It is very easy to say a name of God on the food according to verse 6118, while saying grace to God before the meal.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salaam Truthseeker. Couldn't I argue though that to say "in the name of God" is simply a way of saying Gods name on the food. I don't take it to mean that I am acting for God. Or am I missing a point. ???

truthseeker171

Salaam Truthseeker. Couldn't I argue though that to say "in the name of God" is simply a way of saying Gods name on the food. I don't take it to mean that I am acting for God. Or am I missing a point. ???

Salaam Rana

Verse 6118 tells the believers to mention the name of Allah on the food, according to this verse we have to choose one of the names of God.
Following verse shows that there is a difference between the word Allah and the name of Allah.

208 - Allah, there is no god but He, to Him are the beautiful names. -

We can say for instance ar-Rahman ? the Gracious, ar-Razzaq ? the Provider on the food while saying grace to God for the food.

According to the Koran the prophets and messengers said or wrote -bismiLlah- as can be seen in verses 1141 and 2730.
The chapters of the Koran are marked by -bismiLlah-.
So it seems that these words mean that one acts, speaks or writes in the name of God - it is the seal of Godly inspiration, as a contrast to the private words or acts.
The common practice to say -in the name of God- for instance when one enters a house is not found in the Koran and seems not to be the appropriate way to remember God, since it literally means to act in the name of God - that could only be by Godly inspiration.

Probably this habit of saying -in the name of- was taken over from the christian religion, in which it is common to ask God in the name of Jesus.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Rana

wasalaam Truthseeker. Thanks for your reply. It actually does make more sense when you used the example of Bismillah at the start of each surah of Quran. Hmm. So what about the longer version of 'Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem'? Would it suffice?

mmkhan

Salaam bro,

Salaam brother

There seem to be two rulings

The one who slaughters (or may be milks) the animal should mention the name of God over the living animal - verse 2234.
The one who eats any food (meat, fish, bread, fruit, vegetables etc.) should mention the name of God over the food - verse 6118, 6121.

In verses 6118 and 6121 eating in general is mentioned not only the eating of meat.
Preferable to be safe than sorry.

There is only one ruling brother, not two. All aayaats quoted above refers to the same.

Please note that 2234 asks the person who slaughter to take Allah's name on it. And 6118 and 6121 is also referring to that person who slaughtered, if the name of Allah is taken , then eat, or else don't eat.

You will not find even a single aayat asking you take Allah's name ON FOOD before you eat, but Allah's name has to be taken before slaughter ON ANIMAL.

May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

truthseeker171

wasalaam Truthseeker. Thanks for your reply. It actually does make more sense when you used the example of Bismillah at the start of each surah of Quran. Hmm. So what about the longer version of 'Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem'? Would it suffice?

Salaam Rana,

I still would advice to avoid saying the words -bismiLlah-, since these words imply that one is inspirated by God to speak in His name.
According to the Koran - this is what prophets and messengers did.

Ar-Rahman and ar-Raheem are both examples of names/attributes of Allah and could be used.
It might be good to say after the name a sentence to thank God for the food - since God tells the believers to be thankful to Him, as for instance in verse 3112.

For instance
Rahman/Gracious, we thank You for the food that You have provided us with.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

There is only one ruling brother, not two. All aayaats quoted above refers to the same.

Please note that 2234 asks the person who slaughter to take Allah's name on it. And 6118 and 6121 is also referring to that person who slaughtered, if the name of Allah is taken , then eat, or else don't eat.

You will not find even a single aayat asking you take Allah's name ON FOOD before you eat, but Allah's name has to be taken before slaughter ON ANIMAL.

Salaam brother

I understand your point of view, but for now I do not agree.

Verse 6118 - So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed acknowledge His signs. -

The verse does not specify the order to mention the name of God on the food only to the eating of meat.
When only the meat of the livestock would be meant - then one can ask why the words -meat from the livestock- are not used in this verse.
This verse seems to tell that before one eats something, the name of God should be mentioned on it.

The order of verse 6118 helps the believers to remember God regularly throughout the day - added to the daily -salat-, verse 3341.
As said before - it is preferable to be safe than to be sorry.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Paradox_Uncreated

To me "say the name of God"can just mean one thing, and that is bismillah. However maybe a better translation would be "proclaim the name of God".

mmkhan

Salaam brother TS171,

Salaam brother

I understand your point of view, but for now I do not agree.

Verse 6118 - So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed acknowledge His signs. -

The verse does not specify the order to mention the name of God on the food only to the eating of meat.
When only the meat of the livestock would be meant - then one can ask why the words -meat from the livestock- are not used in this verse.
This verse seems to tell that before one eats something, the name of God should be mentioned on it.

The order of verse 6118 helps the believers to remember God regularly throughout the day - added to the daily -salat-, verse 3341.
As said before - it is preferable to be safe than to be sorry.

For the highlighted part above, there are two reasons

1- "Zukira" and "Lam Yuzkari" are the words used in 6118 and 6121, that both word are not referring to the eater in anyways, "zukira" means "has been taken/remembered " and "lam yuzkari" means "has not been taken/remembered ".

2- It always refers to the meat, not to other food, fruits or vegetables. If it refers to all types of foods, then it will really gonna be a problem. In India in almost everywhere, they cut their fruits, vegetables, etc. by doing some idol worship, and it is supplied to the world.

Remember, Allah is aware of all this, so, AlQuraan states

6141
6141 And He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; and palm trees, and plants, all with different taste; and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful.

AlQuraan states of giving its due when you cut on the day of harvest, but DID NOT asked to take/remember the Name of Allah on it on the day of harvest. This may help you understand that taking Allah's name is limited to the animals only.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

truthseeker171

Salaam brother

You have an interesting approach on this subject, but I did not find proof enough to see your way of reading the relevant verses as binding.

For the highlighted part above, there are two reasons

1- "Zukira" and "Lam Yuzkari" are the words used in 6118 and 6121, that both word are not referring to the eater in anyways, "zukira" means "has been taken/remembered " and "lam yuzkari" means "has not been taken/remembered ".

I agree with you that the wording -zukira- and -lam yuzkari- of verses 6118 and 6121 is rather indirect, but I do not share the point of view that this would mean that those words are not referring to the eater.

The eater can mention the name of God on the food before the actual moment of eating.
When believers eat together, one person can mention the name of God on the food, by this way the name of God is mentioned on the food also for the others.

The words -meat from the live-stock- (that would refer to verse 2234) are absent in verses 6118 and 6121 - so there is not a 100 percent certain linkage with verse 2234.

2- It always refers to the meat, not to other food, fruits or vegetables. If it refers to all types of foods, then it will really gonna be a problem. In India in almost everywhere, they cut their fruits, vegetables, etc. by doing some idol worship, and it is supplied to the world.

6145 - Say, "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood poured forth, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Compassionate. -

This verse is mainly about the regulation on eating meat, but the words -what is corruptly dedicated to other than God- seems to refer to the food in general.
Because of this verse I would avoid to eat for instance rice or an apple that comes from an altar for an idol.

Accidents may happen, also when one eats meat one can not be 100 percent sure if the name of an idol has been mentioned over the animal, unless one has been in 100% control over the total proces of farming and slaughtering. But if we know or should know - then there is a responsibility to avoid this food.

Remember, Allah is aware of all this, so, AlQuraan states

6141
6141 And He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; and palm trees, and plants, all with different taste; and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful.

AlQuraan states of giving its due when you cut on the day of harvest, but DID NOT asked to take/remember the Name of Allah on it on the day of harvest. This may help you understand that taking Allah's name is limited to the animals only.

The mentioning of the name of God is not due on products that are being harvested,
That does not mean that the name of God should not be mentioned on them before they are eaten.
In in my opinion the name of God has to be mentioned on the food in general, also on the meat, even when one is 100% sure that before the slaughtering the name has been mentioned on the living animal.
This seems to be the safest way of reading verse 6118.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mmkhan

Salaam brother,

I agree with you that the wording -zukira- and -lam yuzkari- of verses 6118 and 6121 is rather indirect, but I do not share the point of view that this would mean that those words are not referring to the eater.

The eater can mention the name of God on the food before the actual moment of eating.
When believers eat together, one person can mention the name of God on the food, by this way the name of God is mentioned on the food also for the others.

You agree with the words that I gave you from the aayaats, but how can I agree with you without any word or an aayat? You made two points above , but your point is NOT clear enough as I made my point brother. Please think about it, what could be the purpose of saying something indirect in 6118 and 6121 instead of saying it straight away.

The words -meat from the live-stock- (that would refer to verse 2234) are absent in verses 6118 and 6121 - so there is not a 100 percent certain linkage with verse 2234.

2461 is a big aayat about food and eating in our relatives and friends houses, but "eating only halaal" is absent in this aayat, so what does it mean? Can we eat even if they cook pork?

There are always relations in between aayaats, you have to relate each one with another in appropriate way with the SAME usage of words in the aayaats.

6145 - Say, "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood poured forth, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Compassionate. -

This verse is mainly about the regulation on eating meat, but the words -what is corruptly dedicated to other than God- seems to refer to the food in general.
Because of this verse I would avoid to eat for instance rice or an apple that comes from an altar for an idol.

Do you think it is possible? We have already taken a try on this, it is impossible to find any food in my place that comes without idol worship . And it is not possible for every single person to grow and harvest his own food and Allah knows this all. By His grace and blessing, he never prohibit other food except animals if Allah's name is not taken on it.

Accidents may happen, also when one eats meat one can not be 100 percent sure if the name of an idol has been mentioned over the animal, unless one has been in 100% control over the total proces of farming and slaughtering. But if we know or should know - then there is a responsibility to avoid this food.

Please read 72 and 202

The mentioning of the name of God is not due on products that are being harvested,
That does not mean that the name of God should not be mentioned on them before they are eaten.
In in my opinion the name of God has to be mentioned on the food in general, also on the meat, even when one is 100% sure that before the slaughtering the name has been mentioned on the living animal.
This seems to be the safest way of reading verse 6118.

Please answer me for the highlighted part above. How did you get to that conclusion? We are not allowed to put words in the mouth of Allah nor we can correct what is said in AlQuraan brother. He knows everything and clearly mentioned everything separately. Please think about it, we cannot twist the words of AlQuraan to fit our understanding, but we have to agree with what is already said, whether we like it or not, we have to agree.

Brother, please relate all the aayaats under discussion and think on it.

May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan