Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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Dear Stilllearning,
I have read and responded to your comment, and I ask that you re-read what you have written since you seem to be unsure what you want.
We all here on this site agree that the Quran be our one and only source of religious law?
If so, then why on earth are you obsessing with what the followers of the messenger may or may not have done/said centuries ago!
Your stance is basically saying, OK, I know the Quran may be saying this, but lets look to the masses for guidance.
Did I not share with you verses saying that the majority are led astray? did I not share a verse stating that the devils will be allowed to pollute the message of every prophet? Did I not share with you the false Christian doctorine for an answer to your question on how the masses can be led astray with none being the wiser?
Let us all please stick to the Quran for evidence and not be emotional about what others before us may/maynot have done.
2134 That is a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.
Salam,
Sorry for going offtopic, but did you receive my PM ?
PEACE
--------------- Student of Allah
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Dear Stilllearning,
I have read and responded to your comment, and I ask that you re-read what you have written since you seem to be unsure what you want.
We all here on this site agree that the Quran be our one and only source of religious law?
If so, then why on earth are you obsessing with what the followers of the messenger may or may not have done/said centuries ago!
Your stance is basically saying, OK, I know the Quran may be saying this, but lets look to the masses for guidance.
Did I not share with you verses saying that the majority are led astray? did I not share a verse stating that the devils will be allowed to pollute the message of every prophet? Did I not share with you the false Christian doctorine for an answer to your question on how the masses can be led astray with none being the wiser?
Let us all please stick to the Quran for evidence and not be emotional about what others before us may/maynot have done.
2134 That is a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.
I think you are talking about the bearing of sins (no soul should bear the sins of another). However the Koran does talk a lot about past prophets and past events and it does recognize the previous scriptures. The Koran also says we do not bear the sin of our parents and spouses who we can be living with. As the case with the Pharoah and his wife and Lot and Noah and their wives. The Koran I think refered to the majority Israelites as being astray (or rather disbelievers) and not Christians.
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Salam Student,
I did...it seems to be a strange glitch (I was also able to see you as having 8 messages - so our IP's must have crossed).
It seems sorted out now.
Dear Bigmo,
The verse I quoted talks about "responsibility" for the actions/thoughts of the people before us (which we clearly are not) - thus to be concerned with finding commonality with the previous generations - while neglecting God's verses - is asking to be misled.
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Dear Layth
We all here on this site agree that the Quran be our one and only source of religious law?
Correct! However 12 pages of this thread, and countless other discussions it seems there is a lack of agreement as to what the Quran has to say on the subject.
If so, then why on earth are you obsessing with what the followers of the messenger may or may not have done/said centuries ago!
ar LaythI am astonished that you fail to grasp the simple point that if at any period in history such a fundemental shift in belief occured not one person appears to have objected to this. Fight against falsehood is not confined to any period of time. Humans (often v tiny minorities) have always resisted against corruption of any kind.
Quran talks about using one's intelligence. Using this criteria do you not think there would be some historical evidence that this event occured somewhere in the history in of approx last 1500yrs.
Your whole flawed argument is based on some obsecure archaelogical evidence which only you appear to have interperted in a particular manner.
As as I am not an archaeclogist (& have no idea as to your expertise in this area) it is difficult for me to discuss the arcaecological evidence with you. However anyone with the very limited understanding of research will explain that even the well established principles in any given field can often be interperted in a contradictory manner. Yet you seem to want turn the entire Islamic history on its head by few flimsy archaelogical statements which even with my limited knowldge sound as credible as a second hand car salesman. As for it being Quranic evidence the discussions on this thread have been more than sufficent to debunk this myth (if the evidence presented here is viewed with an open mind and objectively)Re Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
? Reply #154 on Yesterday at 040250 AM ?
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So it is accepted that
(i) Message of the Quran had spread far during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohd.
(ii) Followers of the Quran to go on Pilgramage/Hajj
(iii) Muslims to pray/salat in a given directionThat is not accurately what I have responded, but I will jump to the subject of your post to save time.
Ok. Perhaps you could redefine your position on the three issues.
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These are very important and fundemental issues which Prophet Mohd must have propogated to his followers. Therefore Muslims in his lifetime must have been aware of where to go for Hajj and in which direction to perform Salat. If after the prophets departure from this world, some cunning group decided to change the place of Hajj from Jeruslaem to Mecaa and at the same for the direction of Salat then surely some in the now vast Muslim community, spread across the land (therefore not all would have any personal benefit form Mecaa becoming a centre of Muslim world) would have objected to this corruption being introduced into the religion based on the message of the Quran. So until the 22nd century, when Layth exposed this huge corruption, how come it just passed the whole Muslim world by without a trace or whimper. Are we seriuosly to believe that every Muslim at the time was so gullible that they accepted this huge and monumental shift away from the teachings of Prophet Mohd. Surely historically there must be some record of this or some splinter group who objected to this massive corruption and hence consider the Qibla as stated by Layth.
your response
I understand from your post you are arguing that we should "follow the majority" and therefore agree that if the group consensus says a certain thing, then that must be accurate?
Where, above, I have stated or even vaguely implied that we should "follow the majority" or group consensus is more accurate. I sincerely hope you did not apply similar logic when you wrote your original article.
Thus, using your same logic, we should surrender to the fact that "Jesus is the son of God" because the majority (if not nearly all) Christians say so. And, since Jesus spread his message to various cities at the time, was around for a number of years preaching his message - then it must be true?
My Logic!!!! I think you read what you want to rather than what is actaully written in front of you. there are many Christians who do not believe "Jesus is the Son of God". Historically it is well known the difference in opinion amongst the Christians on this issue. I am sure you have heard of Nissenia (sorry if I have spelt it incorrectly).
In a way (not intended by you) you have actually illustrated my point When any corruption of significant magnitude occurs there will always be some (no matter how small or insignificant) who will oppose it. Christianity is a classic example ie those not believing in Jesus Being Son of God. Any similar examples you could perhaps quote to illustrate your point.
This is what God tells us about the "majority"
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
As for the other part that you have also missed...It is God's Sunna/Way that after every prophet is sent, the devil is allowed to make corruption in his teachings so as to lead people astray
6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - mankind and Jinn devils - to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6113 That is so the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter will listen to it, and they will accept it, and they will take of it what they will.
In light of whatI stated. this is irrelevent and if anything applies more to what you have written.
Finally, before making sarcastic comments about this fact not being known until the 22nd century, a little reading in the Quran and in history would have set your path straight
Intersting you chose to interpert this as a sarcastic comment. You are the only one, I know, who reached the concusion of Phenomenal change in Muslim history and faith. Therfore I felt it to be quite reasonable (in my opinion) to state in this discussion
- Quran talks about a Qibla shift during the life of the prophet;
- Archaeology records the first Qibla as Jerusalem - a fact undisputed by nearly all sects;
- Quranic verses match the area of Jerusalem as the site for the Masjid Al-Haram (not Mecca);
- Quran even calls such place "Bakka" - a name common to Jerusalem, but not to Mecca;
These have already been discussed in detail by many others without any consensus
-Early Muslims had a civil war in which they slaughtered one another - obviously over some major issues;
- Muslim Khalifa (AbdulMalik Bin Marwan) sent an army to destroy the Mecca worshipers and to destroy the Kaaba - while at the same time renovating and decorating the Dome of the Rock.
Yes muslims have fought, slaughtered each other for the past 1500 yrse. Cannot see any relevance to what is being discussed here.
there are so many other points that have been rained in this thread that you can read at your leisure...But the first step is to let go of your attachment to the "majority" and stick rather to the "truth".
"Truth" bit of an arrogant assumption that you have a monoply on this issue (before you claim you did not say, this then read the above carefully and explain what else it could mean).
I dont know where you get this majority issue that you keep repeating (perhaps you could paste where I have stated this). I am beginning to wonder if you are on some kind of intellectual mission to prove your points are against the majority (which somehow confers some kind of moral and intellectual superiority). Therefore if any disagreement with your views, then the opposing views must be of the majority hence your self righteousness confirmed.As the lengthy discussion on this topic shows. Quran has been interperted with diametrically opposing views.
History, our surrondings, our intellect and multitude of factors make us the individuals we are and influence the judgements we make. As a muslim I would be delighted if all the issues could be resolved by Quranic interpertation. However in this case so far it has not been possible as we have different understanding from the written verses. Therefore we have to use other logical criteria.
WHICH IS VERY SIMPLE IF SUCH HUGE FUNDEMENTAL SHIFT IN ISLAMIC BELIEF SYSTEM OCCURED AT ANY GIVEN POINT. THEN WERE ALL THE MUSLIMS EITHER
(a) COMPLETELY PAGANISTIC DRIVEN AND ONLY TOO GLAD TO GO BACK TO THEIR PAGAN DAYS
(b) WERE SO COMPLETELY IGNORANT OR STUPID THAT NO ONE AMONGST THEM REALSIED THIS HUGE CORRUPTION THAT WAS INTRODUCED IN THEIR FAITHThe above are the two obvious explanations, I can think of, why until now this huge fact been completely and utterly buried.
Please dont keep going on majority/minority issue for that is not what the point I am trying to make.
Regards
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History, our surrondings, our intellect and multitude of factors make us the individuals we are and influence the judgements we make.
Intellect is good. Ditch the rest.
THEN WERE ALL THE MUSLIMS EITHER
(a) COMPLETELY PAGANISTIC DRIVEN AND ONLY TOO GLAD TO GO BACK TO THEIR PAGAN DAYS
(b) WERE SO COMPLETELY IGNORANT OR STUPID THAT NO ONE AMONGST THEM REALSIED THIS HUGE CORRUPTION THAT WAS INTRODUCED IN THEIR FAITHWhat does it matter what "all the muslims" do, when you have a Criterion that is completely independent of any acts of "all the muslims"? (And you still don't want to get accused of having been influenced by the majority !!)
Why don't you set your agenda right? If you take Quran as the only source of religious law, you should not worry about what or what not happened in the past.
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Dear Layth
Correct! However 12 pages of this thread, and countless other discussions it seems there is a lack of agreement as to what the Quran has to say on the subject.
Peace and blessings be upon you,
I don't want you to think I am striving to guide anyone or make people believe me. I am only showing the Moderators/Owners of this website/forum why I do not believe as they believe, striving to expose the teachings they uphold that are contrary to the Quran, and in the process increasing my iman - by using the Quran to prove their assertions incorrect. We are only responsible for ourselves, and our only obligation is to remind. That's it.
I am doing this for me. Those who come behind who are truly guided by Allah will check out both sides and turn to Allah for guidance and explanation. As any Muslim will do.
I will echo the comment to not worry about what anyone else is doing. Focus on what you are doing and what you uphold, so that you do not find yourself among the losers on the Day of Judgment.
"Say 'Shall We tell you who will be the greatest losers in their works?
Those whose striving goes astray in the present life, while they think that they are working good deeds.
Those are they that disbelieve in the signs of their Lord and the encounter with Him; their works have failed, and on the Day of Resurrection We shall not assign to them any weight.
That is their recompense -- Gehenna for that they were unbelievers and took My signs and My messengers in mockery." Surah 18103-106There are people who believe they are rightly guided, but they follow teachings Allah did not reveal. They will be the greatest losers because they associate partners to Him. Their deeds won't even be weighed.
Allah finishes Surah 18 with a very clear statement
"Say. 'If the sea were ink for the Words of my Lord, the sea would be spent before the Words of my Lord are spent, though We brought replenishment the like of it.'
Say 'I am only a mortal the like of you; it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him, who hopes for the encounter with his Lord, work righteousness, and not associate with his Lord's service anyone." Surah 18109-110The Quran contains an explanation of all things. I am not a doubter.
Peace.
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Intellect is good. Ditch the rest.
I wish I was like you, unfortunately I am burned with all the usual human failings of emotion, attatchment, pride, jealousy can etc. I even get exited by 22 men dressed in shorts who kick a round ball about. I even get upset at people dying, same those with much better intellect than me, yet I know it is the only certainty in life. As you can see I have huge amount to ditch. ( (
SalWhat does it matter what "all the muslims" do, when you have a Criterion that is completely independent of any acts of "all the muslims"? (And you still don't want to get accused of having been influenced by the majority !!)
Sorry I dont think you have any idea of the point I am trying to make. I have never suggested follow majority/minority or anybody. The issue under discussion is where Qibla is? In case you have not realised there are two views on this thread. Both have gone in circles, using the Quran, to justify their position. Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before. Therefore logically it must follow that at a partcular point in history this must have occured which completely changed every muslim/non muslims perception of Qibla being in Jerusaelm. Please explain to me what it is you don't understand about the above.
Why don't you set your agenda right? If you take Quran as the only source of religious law, you should not worry about what or what not happened in the past.
Hmmmm! it might have escaped your notice that there is little disagreement here on what the Quran says about where the Qibla is. Unfortunately I am not in possession in the truthmeter that many here possess to enable me to agree with them that it is in Jerusaelm. As using the Quran I am struggling with this position. I am trying to find out when Historically people like me were led up the Garden (obviously not heavenly) path
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Salaam raginaggijjin
Peace and blessings be upon you,
I don't want you to think I am striving to guide anyone or make people believe me. I am only showing the Moderators/Owners of this website/forum why I do not believe as they believe, striving to expose the teachings they uphold that are contrary to the Quran, and in the process increasing my iman - by using the Quran to prove their assertions incorrect. We are only responsible for ourselves, and our only obligation is to remind. That's it.
I am doing this for me. Those who come behind who are truly guided by Allah will check out both sides and turn to Allah for guidance and explanation. As any Muslim will do.
I will echo the comment to not worry about what anyone else is doing. Focus on what you are doing and what you uphold, so that you do not find yourself among the losers on the Day of Judgment.
No I did not think th atat all. Agree we are all responsible for our own actions. I try my best not to make it as an issue that i am right you are wrong, but I am sure as a human I regularly slip up and my ego gets the better of me. I also feel that if I disagree with something which I feel is misrepresenting the Quran then I have to try to respond. Only God knows the truth. I can only go as far my human limitations allow me.
Regards
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I try my best not to make it as an issue that i am right you are wrong, but I am sure as a human I regularly slip up and my ego gets the better of me. I also feel that if I disagree with something which I feel is misrepresenting the Quran then I have to try to respond. Only God knows the truth. I can only go as far my human limitations allow me.
Peace and blessings be upon you and yours,
You are in like company. )
The words of caution are for me as well. May Allah guide us to a right better than this.Peace and blessings.
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Salaam
You are in like company.
The words of caution are for me as well. May Allah guide us to a right better than this.Makes me feel lot more comfortable. No matter how much I try being in the company of 1self (in terms of opinions) is a very lonely place (there my emotional hang ups again). Mind you better be careful if any more and will be accused of just following the majority ;D ;D
Regards
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Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before.
You probably have been used to sunni/shia concepts of personality cults, imams, and leaders... is that the reason you are depicting this forum as some propaganda of "Layth and his followers" ?? Actually, most people here take Quran as their point of departure. If you are not aware of this view being espoused before, it does not give you a right to be sarcastic and arrogant towards the writers and members of this forum. You are being fixated on the idea of "all muslims", and it is your own fault. Here is a lesson for you
Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are just like cattle. No, they are worse off.
We have come to you with the truth, but most of you hate the truth.Confusions, and emotions are a part of a human's life, but what good is a Muslim who does not strive to transcend these illusions ?
Peace.
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AOA
You probably have been used to sunni/shia concepts of personality cults, imams, and leaders... is that the reason you are depicting this forum as some propaganda of "Layth and his followers" ??
Thank you for telling me what I am used to. i can undestand why you think i depicting this forum as some propaganda. I think is the word followers. Which i assure you is genuine mistake and I meant to write & those who agree with him.
Since the view on this forum by Layth and his followers is that it is in Jerusaelm and I am not aware of this view being espoused before
As you can I was rreferring to this particular issue and not to this forum as whole ( however I accept it was inappropriate) . Besides I was not aware that everyone on this forum agrees with Layth on everything. It might come as a shock to you I am also a memebr of this forum.
Actually, most people here take Quran as their point of departure. If you are not aware of this view being espoused before, it does not give you a right to be sarcastic and arrogant towards the writers and members of this forum. You are being fixated on the idea of "all muslims", and it is your own fault. Here is a lesson for you
I was not being arrogant but responding directly to each point raised ( perhaps you should read them again and you might just spot that you perhaps were being wee little patronising- glass houses stones etc come to mind). No doubt i will learn my lesson but perhaps you need to also learn a lesson and that is to learn to read. Perhaps you can go back and explain how i am fixated with "all muslims". If I am then I suppose it is my fault!
As for the Quran being point of departure ( I think I know what you mean) . As for my departure ponnit you can reach your own conclusion aby reading some of my old posts (not many but quite old).
I would gently request that if you cannot respond directly to the points I have raised then we should terminate this discussion and I wish you a goodbye and genuine apology if I have offended you.Regards
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If you are complacent about accepting the influence of history, surroundings, and a multitude of other factors on your judgment, do you really expect to get your confusion clarified? When has that ever happened? One needs to have an "erased slate" in order to Understand, because Revelation is too pure to have ever manifested on dirty slates. Why don't you compound your judgment with Quran alone, and abandon the influence of history, surroundings and whatever other factors you feel influenced by ?? Faith is half nihilism, remember.
End of argument.
Peace. -
AOA
If you are complacent about accepting the influence of history, surroundings, and a multitude of other factors on your judgment, do you really expect to get your confusion clarified? When has that ever happened? One needs to have an "erased slate" in order to Understand, because Revelation is too pure to have ever manifested on dirty slates. Why don't you compound your judgment with Quran alone, and abandon the influence of history, surroundings and whatever other factors you feel influenced by ?? Faith is half nihilism, remember.
End of argument.
Peace.It is obvious from the above you have no idea to the point i am trying to make. There was never any argument. Agree end of our dialogue as I genuinely feel there was no discussion. As perhaps, mybe my fault for poor articulation, we seem to discussing different issues to each other and fast going nowhere.
regards
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Quran talks about using one's intelligence. Using this criteria do you not think there would be some historical evidence that this event occured somewhere in the history in of approx last 1500yrs.
Your whole flawed argument is based on some obsecure archaelogical evidence which only you appear to have interperted in a particular manner.
As as I am not an archaeclogist (& have no idea as to your expertise in this area) it is difficult for me to discuss the arcaecological evidence with you. However anyone with the very limited understanding of research will explain that even the well established principles in any given field can often be interperted in a contradictory manner. Yet you seem to want turn the entire Islamic history on its head by few flimsy archaelogical statements which even with my limited knowldge sound as credible as a second hand car salesman. As for it being Quranic evidence the discussions on this thread have been more than sufficent to debunk this myth (if the evidence presented here is viewed with an open mind and objectively)And there is the same problem with the sacred months.
Peace.
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Two nights ago I started reading the book " The Natural Republic ". I read in one the chapters that the Qibla is not Mecca but Jerusalem. At first I was a bit skeptical however after reading a few additional articles I'm starting to think that indeed Jerusalem has to be the Qibla. I was a Christian. And i read the Bible. So far to my knowledge none of the prophets, Jews or Christians could have gone to Mecca for pilgrimage. The Bible places ALOT of emphasis on Jerusalem as the place of pilgrimage. Also the Quran did say in Sura 396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
I always thought that the word Bakka was an old word for the city of Mecca however to my astonishment there is a place called Bakka in Jerusalem! Another issue that bothered me was why was Prophet Mohammad so preoccupied with fighting the Byzantium army unless it was of great importance??? And if the Kaaba in Mecca was the original Qibla why is it according to Islamic History that Muhammad prayed in the direction of Jerusalem during the period the Quran was being revealed. The writers of this book make very strong arguments to support the theory that Jerusalem (where the dome of the rock is situated ) is the focal point. I'm beginning to think so to. Does anyone have any comments on this particular topic ?Hello, sounds Very Very interesting.
Pleaz, what is "qibla" and in which "language" ?
I heard about that to, that at th? "beginning", "prayers" was turned to jeru-salem !
What is that book, talking about this ??
Peace on th? Earth and above ours "heads"
Sorry what is Bakka ??? -
The foolish from amongst the people will say "What has turned them away from the qiblah that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west...
Sorry ?
