The Search for Muhammad has Ended
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The first reply on this issue was only to indicate an exception to this ""Bayt" of God which is for ALL PEOPLE".
Relying on this understanding of yours, I will consider it as a reply to the first question In your opinion, Bayt haram and masjid haram are completely two different "buildings", and they have to be away from each other, too.
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So how can all the people be allowed into the bayt without coming near the masjid?
The exception/prohibition brought in from a certain point in time. Not allowing nearing Masjid automatically disallows specified people from Albait which can be approached only through first passing into Masjid.
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The exception/prohibition brought in from a certain point in time. Not allowing nearing Masjid automatically disallows specified people from Albait which can be approached only through first passing into Masjid.
You have no right to annul an order by God that the bayt is for all people, mentioned more than once , at the expense of masjid where the order to keep mushriks away from it happened only once, just to establish your specific understanding Nowhere in the qur'aan do we have the bayt meaning the masjid or in its vicinity.
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Salaam Pazuzu,
I come to this Forum only to read your posts.
I agree that the other thread became a circus, and this one is in danger of becoming so, too.
I wish people could spare us their pathetic comments, and have patience to wait for you to expose your claims.
I hope you will have the energy and will to continue giving us the precious and logical explanations and information.I shall use this opportunity to congratulate you on your posts which are logical. very well written, seriously exposed and clearly outlined.
I agree with almost all your claims, and they've helped me to understand many unclear parts of the translations of the Qur'an and Islam.
Thank you!
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Salaam Godsubmitter
I do not know what you mean by the thread became a circus. I do not think discussing the masjid or bayt are alien to the subject. If "Muslims" believe that the hajj in its present form was practiced by Muhammad, then he must have been in Mecca. Just saying I do not believe Mecca existed is not enough as long as there is no evidence. Actually, this "circus" you are talking about, here or in the other thread, is full of more evidence than bro Pazuzu submitted, and they could be very helpful to him since he is researching. They do not have to support his theory to be beneficial. In my opinion, those who clap and show complete support without even discussing anything do him more bad than good.
Moreover, we are writing, not talking so that Pazuzu or anyone waits for the us to calm down. He can continue with his thread and later respond to the questions. But neither you nor anyone else has the right to silence people. The thread has not been hijacked by a theme that has nothing to do with where Muhammad is. If Pazuzu wanted to finish his thread without giving others the opportunity to discuss it, he could have posted it all at once. -
If Pazuzu wanted to finish his thread without giving others the opportunity to discuss it, he could have posted it all at once.
As Layeth has done it recently. I may propose that he may put all his article in one go, which might not involve more effort on his part than cut and paste from his computer, by opening a new thread titled the same. And I am sure that thereby his admirers would also not have pass comments like "haphazardly".
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You have no right to annul an order by God that the bayt is for all people, mentioned more than once , at the expense of masjid where the order to keep mushriks away from it happened only once, just to establish your specific understanding Nowhere in the qur'aan do we have the bayt meaning the masjid or in its vicinity.
In about 1400 years billions of people have located the Albait in more or less the middle of the Masjid. If that understanding and physical evidencing is incorrect, and the available structures of both are in different cities or states, that needs to be identified.
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In about 1400 years billions of people have located the Albait in more or less the middle of the Masjid. If that understanding and physical evidencing is incorrect, and the available structures of both are in different cities or states, that needs to be identified.
Not billions of people but in fact hardly a few "Muslim scholars" alleged that a small room somewhere is a bayt of God and the mass of Muslims just followed. What's more interesting is that no messenger of God after Ibrahim (presuming that Ibrahim and his son raised its foundation) has visited this" bayt of God" nor did their followers. God has not told us that those people were wrong for not having visited "His bayt". He told us that they prayed, gave charity, believed in Him only and even fasted, but never visited this "bayt", simply because it is not a structure or a location.
Another point "Mecca" has been ignored, not just by other religions, but also by Muslim rulers themselves. They set their capital in Damascus from the era of Omar Ibn ul Khatab on, and it was never the capital for any of them. Even the Prophet did not bother to live in it after the conquest although it's alleged that he was born there. How can we believe that such a town existed and contained a bayt of God? -
Peace...
too much confusion, pre-conception and opinions on the subject of Beyt / Sanctuary...
let me put my understanding here for whatever it is worth...
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There is no doubt in my mind the places are physical, and there is nothing theologically wrong to find out where they have been / what they are...
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If you re-read the story of Ahl Al Kahfi, (The people of the Cave), when they died, the people have been arguing about how much they slept, how many they were, and wished to build a sanctuary over them, which Allah scorned, as instead of benefitting from the wisdom of the story, people got lost in the details - much as we do here...
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It is very legitimate to find out about one's history, and in fact Allah urges us to do so... so finding out where the Prophets lived and whether what we are being told is correct or not is very acceptable...
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That faith in Allah involves physical manifestations, such as Temples and Sanctuaries, even if these are natural areas like pazuzu argues has nothing to do with shirk, it is the meaning we attribute to these physical manifestations that can constitute shirk... Allah does emphasise that if it were not through His interventions, pushing people alongside others, there will be no Temples, Synagogues and Sanctuaries where God's name is celebrated... this meaning that it is natural for people to do so... because after all, how would believers congregate if they wished to draw near Allah as a group, as opposed to as singletons... Doesn't Allah love Believers standing side by side as if it is an impenetrable wall?
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Excellent Post! Pazuzu.Articles are worth the likes of a Nobel Candidate.
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He told us that they prayed, gave charity, believed in Him only and even fasted, but never visited this "bayt", simply because it is not a structure or a location.
Alternatively, you need to define it as to what is it--a thought, concept, idea!!!!!
"bayt" would also mean "inhabited location".
Seem there are many locations in Yemen called as "Bayt" or "Buyut".
http//www.tageo.com/index-letter-66-e-ym-v-00.htmThere also location named "Bayt Ibrahim" in Yemen and Iraq. Which one the earliest, i am not sure..
Peace.
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Good Day...
The Arabic text says "Yarfa3u' l qawa3id min al bayti".
The word "yarfa3u" here means he REMOVED or LIFTED something FROM al bayt. There were certain things that were "qawa3id" (stagnating or fixed for a long time), and Abraham removed them.
This is similar to Allah telling Muhamad
{Did We not comfort your chest * And take from you your load * Which had put strain on your back?}...
Note the expression "take from you your load". It means Allah REMOVED the load that was straining Muhamad's back. The Arabic text says "narfa3u 3anka" (We "lifted it" or "removed it".
Abraham REMOVED something.
You said The Arabic text says "narfa3u 3anka"
But, when I checked verse it says "waa3n 3anka"
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=94&verse=1Will you please explain how you arrived to word "narfa3u" in place of "waa3n"?
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Not billions of people but in fact hardly a few "Muslim scholars" alleged that a small room somewhere is a bayt of God and the mass of Muslims just followed. What's more interesting is that no messenger of God after Ibrahim (presuming that Ibrahim and his son raised its foundation) has visited this" bayt of God" nor did their followers. God has not told us that those people were wrong for not having visited "His bayt". He told us that they prayed, gave charity, believed in Him only and even fasted, but never visited this "bayt", simply because it is not a structure or a location.
Another point "Mecca" has been ignored, not just by other religions, but also by Muslim rulers themselves. They set their capital in Damascus from the era of Omar Ibn ul Khatab on, and it was never the capital for any of them. Even the Prophet did not bother to live in it after the conquest although it's alleged that he was born there. How can we believe that such a town existed and contained a bayt of God?Yes, that's quite an interesting point!
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I know this thread is old now. Just came across this research a few days ago and have been researching the "Torah came from Arabia" theory. I've got quite a few questions but I'm going to focus on one for the moment. Pazuzu, you mention there are 200+ names of places in the Torah matching names in Arabia to the letter. Could you please provide some examples or a list of these if possible (a link or something)? I'm interested in this research and that statement caught my eye. Elaboration would be appreciated. Would that definitely prove your theory that the Torah came from Arabia and Israel was actually in Arabia? Very thorough research though )
Thank you
PS is most of your research derived from Salibi's book or do you draw from other authors/your own research? If so, who. Thanx, just curious. -
I know this thread is old now. Just came across this research a few days ago and have been researching the "Torah came from Arabia" theory. I've got quite a few questions but I'm going to focus on one for the moment. Pazuzu, you mention there are 200+ names of places in the Torah matching names in Arabia to the letter. Could you please provide some examples or a list of these if possible (a link or something)? I'm interested in this research and that statement caught my eye. Elaboration would be appreciated. Would that definitely prove your theory that the Torah came from Arabia and Israel was actually in Arabia? Very thorough research though )
Thank you
PS is most of your research derived from Salibi's book or do you draw from other authors/your own research? If so, who. Thanx, just curious.If you are interested in Pazuzu's research and need further evidence please study these books.
In books II and III, you can see many references to Arabic poetry, and Description of Arabia, which match with the names in the Old Testament.
ARABIA The Untold Story
Book 1 The Search for Pharaoh
http//www.scribd.com/doc/132840113/Arabia-The-Untold-Story-Book-1-Search-for-PharaohARABIA The Untold Story
Book 2 Road of the Patriarch
http//www.scribd.com/doc/132844965/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Book-2-Road-of-the-PatriarchARABIA The Untold Story
Book 3 Israel and Sheba
http//www.scribd.com/doc/159441825/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Israel-and-Sheba