---> just a question

Satan_Hates_Me

if muhammed was record on video camera saying salat, zakat, hajj whatever, is what it is or what it is not, would you follow it?

How important is the messenger of GOD as it relates to the message?(464)

TheNabi

Salaam

I'm of the view that the messenger is directly correlated with the message, and not over and above it.

Joe

Idris

peace SHM,

if muhammed was record on video camera saying salat, zakat, hajj whatever, is what it is or what it is not, would you follow it?

How important is the messenger of GOD as it relates to the message?(464)

first I'd examine his methods (assuming they are worship rituals) then I'd reasonably think them over and examine them in the light of the quran, if I found them to be wrong or I disagree with them then I'd hop through the video camera lens and travel back in time to his days, I'd respectfully ask him how he came to such conclusions and after we thoroughly debated and came to an agreement then I'd travel back through time and hop out of the camera lens happy I got to discuss the particular quran we follow with the person who God inspired it too, to each his own interpretation, the deliverer of this quran was not above studying the quran himself and coming to his own conclusions, he had to do solaa as well wink

p.s.-did you know I could historically prove to you that you practice the ritual prayer the wrong way? just something to think about

Someone

if muhammed was record on video camera saying salat, zakat, hajj whatever, is what it is or what it is not, would you follow it?

How important is the messenger of GOD as it relates to the message?(464)

Peace,

What you can be sure of, is the fact that the messenger would not dare to invent lies against the creator.

unknownuser

Salaams SHM,
first you have to be a firm beleiever that it was the prophet or what ever it is is from the prophet and then if confirmed ,believe 100% without anymore proves of any kind.

I think.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

if muhammed was record on video camera saying salat, zakat, hajj whatever, is what it is or what it is not, would you follow it?

How important is the messenger of GOD as it relates to the message?(464)

The messengers job is to deliver the God's message clearly, and to follow the message. It is possible that one day you might just see "muhamadun" on a video camera discussing these topics, I hope so. The one who hears this message will still be in the same boat we are all in, they must verify the information for contradictions and truthfulness according to the laws that govern the universe.

Satan_Hates_Me

Idris

p.s.-did you know I could historically prove to you that you practice the ritual prayer the wrong way? just something to think about

but i am not just talking abuot solaa/salat. i am discuss following the messenger, obeying the messenger. If we have proof (like video camera recording) of the messenger saying important things about submission, will you obey it.

and if you look in the light of the koran, this is what we are order to do, 464 465

Satan_Hates_Me

Nabi

Salaam

I'm of the view that the messenger is directly correlated with the message, and not over and above it.

Joe

i agree. but how commit you are to that correlation? what would you considered over and above the messenger duties or message. do you think GOD would allow a messenger to say something with no authority? Even if it is not in the koran. and remember a messenger doesnt mean they have a scripture/book.

Satan_Hates_Me

Someone

if muhammed was record on video camera saying salat, zakat, hajj whatever, is what it is or what it is not, would you follow it?

How important is the messenger of GOD as it relates to the message?(464)

Peace,

What you can be sure of, is the fact that the messenger would not dare to invent lies against the creator.

sure. but i question is would you follow it? if the messenger (and remember a messenger doesnt mean one who is given a scripture) deliever a messaage, would you follow it? There are many messenger listed in the koran that didnt have a tanigble book to deliever, just a message.

Satan_Hates_Me

mz357

Salaams SHM,
first you have to be a firm beleiever that it was the prophet or what ever it is is from the prophet and then if confirmed ,believe 100% without anymore proves of any kind.

I think.

i am not just talking about a prophet, but a messenger as well. Someoone inspired to deliever a divine message (who doesnt have a tanigble scripture). they dont always come with a scripture. Would you follow him or her? especially when we read these verse 464 465

Satan_Hates_Me

idolfree1
Peace be upon you,

if muhammed was record on video camera saying salat, zakat, hajj whatever, is what it is or what it is not, would you follow it?

How important is the messenger of GOD as it relates to the message?(464)

The messengers job is to deliver the God's message clearly, and to follow the message. It is possible that one day you might just see "muhamadun" on a video camera discussing these topics, I hope so. The one who hears this message will still be in the same boat we are all in, they must verify the information for contradictions and truthfulness according to the laws that govern the universe.

but isnt that contradicting 464 465? to have an opinion and selective choose what to follow? Today, many of us are view the koran in its entirety. We are the entire book. however, when muhammed preach the koran, he didnt have the entire book. so it is easy for us to say "must verify the information" because we have the complete book.

But in light of verse 464, that is a different stroy. How can one believe that that a person is a messenger yet continue to "verify" his or her information? 464 465

imagine doing these during the time of Muhammed and then look at the decription in the koran of those who did this.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you SHM,

but isnt that contradicting 464 465?

No, how would it contradict?

to have an opinion and selective choose what to follow?

Who is selectively choosing? We are using reason to find out if the message that the messenger brings is from the God. We are told not to be blind followers. When we ascertain if the message has any contradictions or not, then we can know if it is the truth or not.

Today, many of us are view the koran in its entirety. We are the entire book. however, when muhammed preach the koran, he didnt have the entire book. so it is easy for us to say "must verify the information" because we have the complete book.

Nabiyaan do not bring physical books, the bring a renewed message to mankind of truth. The word "quran" only means reading. You, respectfully, have to get past the traditional tales of books falling from the skies.

But in light of verse 464, that is a different stroy. How can one believe that that a person is a messenger yet continue to "verify" his or her information? 464 465

Anyone that brings you a message is a messenger, but what we try to ascertain from verification is if he is the God's messenger.

imagine doing these during the time of Muhammed and then look at the decription in the koran of those who did this.

When is the time of "muhammad"? And what desription am I looking for? Please show me that description in the reading you are talking about.

Satan_Hates_Me

Nabiyaan do not bring physical books, the bring a renewed message to mankind of truth. The word "quran" only means reading. You, respectfully, have to get past the traditional tales of books falling from the skies.

forget "koran". Prophet bring 'scriptures'. So scripture doesnt mean scripture anymore huh Joe? GOD said he gave SCRIPTURE to prophets, not the koran. (4136, 1758, 7157, 21105) IT WAS WRITTEN in scriptures "And We have written in the Psalms" (21105)

You, respectfully, have to get over the fact the tanigble book were given to prophets. The koran is a tanigble book. and scripture (4141)

Anyone that brings you a message is a messenger, but what we try to ascertain from verification is if he is the God's messenger.

you missed my point. for example muhammed DIDNOT have a complete SCRIPTURE to deliever to his people. when ever he got a verse or two, he will preach it. If you believe he is a mesesnger from GOD , how can you keep 'verifying' each verse reveal to him if you already believe that he was a messenger to begin with?

ex. when he got the first two verses, you believe him and verified the verse. so now you believe he is a messenger from GOD. But everytime he gets a new verse, you would make sure it is true? Take seem very hypocritical.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you SHM,

forget "koran". Prophet bring 'scriptures'. So scripture doesnt mean scripture anymore huh Joe?

My name is Kyle. The nabiyeen recieve al kitaab.

GOD said he gave SCRIPTURE to prophets, not the koran. (4136, 1758, 7157, 21105) IT WAS WRITTEN in scriptures "And We have written in the Psalms" (21105)

The word used is "alzzaboori", what does that word mean?

You, respectfully, have to get over the fact the tanigble book were given to prophets. The koran is a tanigble book. and scripture (4141)

This ever unfolding book of life is indeed glorious.

Quote
Anyone that brings you a message is a messenger, but what we try to ascertain from verification is if he is the God's messenger.

you missed my point. for example muhammed DIDNOT have a complete SCRIPTURE to deliever to his people. when ever he got a verse or two, he will preach it. If you believe he is a mesesnger from GOD , how can you keep 'verifying' each verse reveal to him if you already believe that he was a messenger to begin with?

Brother, I cannot answer a question based on superstition. I don't believe that story you are bringing. Its simple, if someone brings me a statement, I will ascertain if it is true or not to the best of my abiliy, if it is true, I follow it, if it is false, I reject it.

ex. when he got the first two verses, you believe him and verified the verse. so now you believe he is a messenger from GOD. But everytime he gets a new verse, you would make sure it is true? Take seem very hypocritical.

I see where you are going wrong now. One is only a messenger at the time they are delivering a message. So if someone brings a truthful statement, like fire is hot don't touch it with your hands, I can verify that and use that information. All truth is from the God so at that time this person is the God's messanger. Later, if that person comes and says that fire is cold, then they are not the God's messenger, later if they come and say itis hot again, they are the God's messenger.

Just like submitting, you are a submitter (muslim) only when you submit, if you do wrong, you are not in that state.

Satan_Hates_Me

My name is Kyle.

my apologies. i forget i was responding to you and not Nabi.

I see where you are going wrong now. One is only a messenger at the time they are delivering a message. So if someone brings a truthful statement, like fire is hot don't touch it with your hands, I can verify that and use that information. All truth is from the God so at that time this person is the God's messanger. Later, if that person comes and says that fire is cold, then they are not the God's messenger, later if they come and say itis hot again, they are the God's messenger.

so according to your beliefs. Muhammed was only a 'messegner' of GOD when he was only delievering a message (al quran). So he was and was NOT a messenger of GOD?!? So i am a messenger of GOD only when i am speaking the truth. if so, thanks for the compliment. if i only new i had such a responsiblity and title.

So when i said this right now "there is not god but GOD". I was a messenger of GOD, but i am nolonger one now since i am not saying it. roll that is hypocritical for you to be flip-flop like that. If that was the case, the Koran should have wriiten, "You are a messenger of GOD only when you speak the message."

Just like submitting, you are a submitter (muslim) only when you submit, if you do wrong, you are not in that state.

I agree but a person who is select to deliever a message from GOD cannot be one (a mesenger) one minute then be something else the next. It will make is his message inconsistent.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

so according to your beliefs. Muhammed was only a 'messegner' of GOD when he was only delievering a message (al quran).

I cannot discuss this man named "Muhammad" that you are talking of, but in regards to ANY messenger, they are only the descripton of "muhamadun" when they are delivering the message.

So he was and was NOT a messenger of GOD?!?

He was the God's messenger when he delivered the message, when he wasn't delivering the God's message, he was a submitter(following the message).

So i am a messenger of GOD only when i am speaking the truth. if so, thanks for the compliment. if i only new i had such a responsiblity and title.

(2252) ...truly YOU are from the messengers

So when i said this right now "there is not god but GOD". I was a messenger of GOD, but i am nolonger one now since i am not saying it.

Correct.

that is hypocritical for you to be flip-flop like that. If that was the case, the Koran should have wriiten, "You are a messenger of GOD only when you speak the message."

Why should the reading have been written according to your desires? Is it also "flip flop" to say that when you are doing right, you are a submitter(muslim), and when you are doing wrong you are a rejector?

Quote
Just like submitting, you are a submitter (muslim) only when you submit, if you do wrong, you are not in that state.

I agree but a person who is select to deliever a message from GOD cannot be one (a mesenger) one minute then be something else the next. It will make is his message inconsistent.

Please explain how that makes a message inconsistent.

Tony

I agree but a person who is select to deliever a message from GOD cannot be one (a mesenger) one minute then be something else the next. It will make is his message inconsistent.

Then you should know that the prophet made mistakes in his lifetime.

In this verse we are to Allah and His Messenger

And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.

But, in this next verse, the prophet sins.

And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute

See the shift?

Satan_Hates_Me

I cannot discuss this man named "Muhammad" that you are talking of, but in regards to ANY messenger, they are only the descripton of "muhamadun" when they are delivering the message.

it is so hard to reason with you Idolfree. So now there is not such person as muhammed......man you are really comminted to this symbolic yet literal logic are you?

Why should the reading have been written according to your desires? Is it also "flip flop" to say that when you are doing right, you are a submitter(muslim), and when you are doing wrong you are a rejector?

they are call hypocrites (631).
The koran is a tanigble book.

Please explain how that makes a message inconsistent.

for example
if Bob, a messenger, tells you

Bob "human blood is red when expose to oxygen".

then he tell you some minute later

Bob "human blood is green when expose to oxygen".

His statements are inconsistant. now Bod would be considered a inconsistant person. his character will testify against his message.

for you to say Muhammed was only a messenger when he actually speak the message make Muhammed seems inconsistant. Muhammed was a messenger of GOD. his Message was the koran. He was always a messenger once he deliever his message. When he was not speaking, he was still a messenger of GOD. i dont think nor does it seem logical that people can easily qualify as messenger just because they spoke the truth. Kyle, you really need to view the koran in the context.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Quote
I cannot discuss this man named "Muhammad" that you are talking of, but in regards to ANY messenger, they are only the descripton of "muhamadun" when they are delivering the message.

it is so hard to reason with you Idolfree. So now there is not such person as muhammed......man you are really comminted to this symbolic yet literal logic are you?

I am committed to finding out the truth.

Quote
Why should the reading have been written according to your desires? Is it also "flip flop" to say that when you are doing right, you are a submitter(muslim), and when you are doing wrong you are a rejector?

they are call hypocrites (631).
The koran is a tanigble book.

Where is the answer to the above question?

Quote
Please explain how that makes a message inconsistent.

for example
if Bob, a messenger, tells you

Bob "human blood is red when expose to oxygen".

then he tell you some minute later

Bob "human blood is green when expose to oxygen".

His statements are inconsistant. now Bod would be considered a inconsistant person. his character will testify against his message.

So you feel that this man from 1400 years ago was infallible in speech?

for you to say Muhammed was only a messenger when he actually speak the message make Muhammed seems inconsistant. Muhammed was a messenger of GOD. his Message was the koran. He was always a messenger once he deliever his message. When he was not speaking, he was still a messenger of GOD. i dont think nor does it seem logical that people can easily qualify as messenger just because they spoke the truth. Kyle, you really need to view the koran in the context.

Thank you for your advice brother, I think I will be fine using my own reason though.

Satan_Hates_Me

Tony

I agree but a person who is select to deliever a message from GOD cannot be one (a mesenger) one minute then be something else the next. It will make is his message inconsistent.

Then you should know that the prophet made mistakes in his lifetime.

of course human make mistakes. Those mistakes Muhammed made that are mention in the koran have nothing to do with making lies about GOD. For example, no where in the koran where you will find GOD saying Muhammed SAID somthing and attributed it Him. The mistakes muhmmaed made have nothing to do with the message he preach.

Do you honestly think a messenger of GOD will say something wrong about the message. That he or she will actually LIE about GOD, THAT US THE IMPORTANT QUESTION TO EVERYONE.

For example, will he tell you salat is a assembly even though it is not? would he lie about it?