---> just a question
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idolfree
You are having PRE CONCIEVED ideas that a messenger brings some type of Miracle as proof, rather than logical arguments.
i know you phlilosphy. things you cannot explain, you view symbolically. i cant even debate with you because nothing is tanigble in your eyes. to you every proof a messenger gets is "arguments" which baliantly contradicts koran verses(2832). to you the koran is not even a book, which balianly contradicts the koran. (101, 964)
what you fail to realize is the messenger dont get scriptures. the only "PRE CONCIEVED ideas " i have is the messengers come with proof. i accept their proof. YOUR "PRE CONCIEVED ideas " is symbolilsim and word play.
I think most people here agree to that, I go one stepfurther and i hope others will also agree after time, that the word "muhammadun" is only a description of a righteous person who appreciates the God and His Laws.
this is a perfect example.
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Salaam SHM
You never answered my question. What was Muhammad's proof for the rakat that you prove via the 19 miracle?
Joe
the koran
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Peace,
I would like to know how Muhammad got it from the quran. Can you show me how he, not being knowledgeable of the 19 miracle as people are today, got the standard of salat from the quran?
Good point there Joe, .
The 19 based idiotically challenged dogma is another slap-on-the-face of "Islam". Neiher the 19-code nor the so-called 'standard of salat' (numbered rakas) can be considered authentically Quranic. In my understanding, in short, both fall into the category of Idol Worshippers and this has been discussed and proven (unchallenged) time and time again right on this forum.
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Salaam SHM,
it is clear prophets gets scriptures and messengers confirmed the scripture but doesnt get a scripture.
Excuse my ignorance, but please clarify this for me, according to your understanding.
Were the following, (a)messengers, (b)prophets, (c)both, (d)none of these (explain/describe)
Please reply individually.
Noah
Abraham
Ishmael
Isaac
Jacob
'the Patriarchs'
Jesus
Job
Jonah
Moses
Aaron
Solomon
David
MuhammadAlso, if you don't mind, which of the previous scriptures do you have/hold right now?
Thanks. )
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Good point there Joe, .
The 19 based idiotically challenged dogma is another slap-on-the-face of "Islam". Neiher the 19-code nor the so-called 'standard of salat' (numbered rakas) can be considered authentically Quranic. In my understanding, in short, both fall into the category of Idol Worshippers and this has been discussed and proven (unchallenged) time and time again right on this forum.
joe have cheerleaders wink
Nabi
when i return home i will proof it. right now i am at work and dont have all the recourses.
zenje
the same for you. but please know the messengers and prophet have to different duties. 3 81 basically explains it.
GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
if those term (prophet and messenger) were the same, why would GOD use both in one verse isolating one from the other
Also, if you don't mind, which of the previous scriptures do you have/hold right now?
i dont understand the question? please explain.
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SHM,
Okay, I will await your answer, on the specific messenger or prophets, etc.
if those term (prophet and messenger) were the same, why would GOD use both in one verse isolating one from the other
I'm not debating this point, really, I would just like you to clarify the individuals I mentioned. )i dont understand the question? please explain.
You agree there are previous scriptures. You say there's information on salat and other things from there. So I was just asking if you had any of these scriptures with you and which ones did you have.
Peace
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Peace be upon you SHM,
know you phlilosphy. things you cannot explain, you view symbolically. i cant even debate with you because nothing is tanigble in your eyes. to you every proof a messenger gets is "arguments" which baliantly contradicts koran verses(2832).
(683) And that (is) Our argument, We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable.
to you the koran is not even a book, which balianly contradicts the koran. (101, 964)
Neither verse has the word "quran" in it. The God is saying that the reading contains signs of AL KITAAB, the everunfolding book of life, you will get it back weither in your right hand or left hand when it is over.
what you fail to realize is the messenger dont get scriptures.
Where have you heard me say messengers get scriptures? I cant understand how you try to debate me yet have no clue about my arguments. Messengers spread the message. That is why ANY of us can be a messenger, because we have the ability to spread Truth.
the only "PRE CONCIEVED ideas " i have is the messengers come with proof. i accept their proof. YOUR "PRE CONCIEVED ideas " is symbolilsim and word play.
However you choose for yourself is fine with me, but i will continue to debate my positions. Your argument is weak and will continue to be so while you look for numbers and not meaning.
Quote
I think most people here agree to that, I go one stepfurther and i hope others will also agree after time, that the word "muhammadun" is only a description of a righteous person who appreciates the God and His Laws.this is a perfect example.
Then try prove me wrong as you pick and choose which verses are for "muhammadun" and which are for ordinary people, adn ohh, I almost forgot, which ones are for Rashad Khalifa.
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You agree there are previous scriptures. You say there's information on salat and other things from there. So I was just asking if you had any of these scriptures with you and which ones did you have.
at work i have none with me. at home i have two translation of the bible (NWT & KJ). within the bible, some of the previous scriptures exist including torah, plsam, gospel etc.
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Idolfree
you are very entertaining.
Neither verse has the word "quran" in it. The God is saying that the reading contains signs of AL KITAAB, the everunfolding book of life, you will get it back weither in your right hand or left hand when it is ove
can you do my a favor. go to any arab who speak their native tongue, arabic, and ask him or her "what those AL KITAAB mean in english?" When you do this tell me his answer honestly.
also, stop trying to "invent" words. You are doing what the sunni do, take a arabic word and make it look like its a new "word" now having a "new meaning". so illogical. listen to yourself ....."'al kitabb' is the everunfolding book of life." listen to yourself Joe. You know Idolfree, if GOD dont say it in the koran, you are saying it for Him. Please quote the verse where GOD call the """al kitabb"""" the "everunfolding book of life."
Oh also...explain this BALAINT reference to the koran being a BOOK (6114)
(683) And that (is) Our argument, We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable
I like how you ignore the verse i quote though. clever indeed Joe. ver clever (2832)
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Peace be upon you,
you are very entertaining.
(5360) And you laugh, and you do not weep ?
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Neither verse has the word "quran" in it. The God is saying that the reading contains signs of AL KITAAB, the everunfolding book of life, you will get it back weither in your right hand or left hand when it is ovecan you do my a favor. go to any arab who speak their native tongue, arabic, and ask him or her "what those AL KITAAB mean in english?" When you do this tell me his answer honestly.
You are playing a game here. Get serious with your studies brother. I don't care what an "arab speaker" calls Al Kitaab, I am only concered with those who study the book(of life) as it should be studied
(2121) Those who We brought to them The Book they study it its correct/true study, those believe with it and who disbelieves with it so those (are) the losers .
also, stop trying to "invent" words. You are doing what the sunni do, take a arabic word and make it look like its a new "word" now having a "new meaning". so illogical. listen to yourself ....."'al kitabb' is the everunfolding book of life." listen to yourself Joe. You know Idolfree, if GOD dont say it in the koran, you are saying it for Him. Please quote the verse where GOD call the """al kitabb"""" the "everunfolding book of life."
I cannot respect "emotions" please bring a logical debate if you expect an answer out of me. And again, my name is Kyle. I am not sure what you intend by continuosly calling me Joe. Perhaps you are implying that he and I are the same person. As with the rest of your argument, it is false and cannot be proven.
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(683) And that (is) Our argument, We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeableI like how you ignore the verse i quote though. clever indeed Joe. ver clever (2832)
My name is Kyle.
(2832) "Enter/pass your hand in your collar/pocket , it emerges white from without evil/harm , and gather/join (fold) to you your wing/side from the terror/fright, so those two are two proofs/evidences from your Lord to Pharaoh, and his nobles/assembly , that they were a nation (of) debauchers ."
So if David Copperfield or David Blane came to you and pulled a rabbit out of a hat, you follow whatever they say? lol
These "miracles" are symbolic, as are all the stories of the prophets. They all came with ARGUMENTS, just like OUR example Abraham.
Now please address MY verse that I gave.
(683) And that (is) Our argument, We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable
What did the God give to Ibrahim to use against his people?
Brother, you should go to the submitters section and debate that point first, because as long as you are following submission.org and thier 19 distraction, you wont be able to think freely. I know you will take that as an insult, but I hope i am wrong, that is my humble advice. I say so because I was were you are now in 1998. All appreciation to the God that I got out!
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Peace Kyle,
I cannot respect "emotions" please bring a logical debate if you expect an answer out of me.
...as long as you are following submission.org and thier 19 distraction, you wont be able to think freely.
Hey, not only that, but the 19ers easily get turned-on by cheerleaders. lol
Good point there Joe, ).
The 19 based idiotically challenged dogma is another slap-on-the-face of "Islam". Neiher the 19-code nor the so-called 'standard of salat' (numbered rakas) can be considered authentically Quranic. In my understanding, in short, both fall into the category of Idol Worshippers and this has been discussed and proven (unchallenged) time and time again right on this forum.
joe have cheerleaders
Flabbergasting!!! What are we discussing? Cheerleaders or cherry-pickers.
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These "miracles" are symbolic, as are all the stories of the prophets.
like i said, nothing is tanigble with you. everything is symbolic. even GOD i guess.
Kyle, can you please quote the verse where GOD call the "al kitabb" the "everunfolding book of life." i will shut up and apologies when you do.
So if David Copperfield or David Blane came to you and pulled a rabbit out of a hat, you follow whatever they say? lol
These "miracles" are symbolic, as are all the stories of the prophets. They all came with ARGUMENTS, just like OUR example Abraham.
(5360) And you laugh, and you do not weep ?
so now GOD proof in verse 2832 are jokes huh? are fables huh? the verse clearly states "These are two proofs from your Lord, to be shown to Pharaoh and his elders; they have been wicked people." GOD is narrating the history of Moses and what HE GOD actually said to him (moses). YOu laugh at it and say it is "fables". listen to yourself Kyle. listen to yourself. (i am not emtional, right here but sincerely asking you to listen to yourself.)
Kyle, like i said, nothing is tanigble to you, eveything, and i do mean everything is a symblic playground for you. you are like a kid in a candy store full of fables and symbolic experiments. sometime i think you really dont believe in GOD as a living Being but just laws or som,e symbolic representation of law. i can be wrong, but, you entertain and puzzle. you are like the only person i know will look a tanigble book in front of him and say it is a "symbol" of life. and not a TANGIBLE BOOK.
i enjoy reading your post and crazy symbolic logical about GOD but i will never follow such illogical thinking. do you know that people can believe then disbelieve and fall deeper into disbeleif after they believe (390)? You first believe muhammed was a messenger of GOD, now you say "muhammedun" is not a messenger of GOD but a decription of a person. believe and then disbelieve. GOD BALIANT LY tells us muhammed was a HUMAN BEING, A HUMAN MESSENGER FROM GOD (1793). You used to believe this right? you used to accept that verse right?(1794)
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Danish
Flabbergasting!!! What are we discussing? Cheerleaders or cherry-pickers.
what are you discussing?
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Danish
Flabbergasting!!! What are we discussing? Cheerleaders or cherry-pickers.
what are you discussing?
OFF LIMITS .
You tell me SHM, since you started off with "Joe has cheerlearders" (referring to me by you) and cherry-pickers (in reference to you by me). Lets not steer off, shall we. wink
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Danish
Flabbergasting!!! What are we discussing? Cheerleaders or cherry-pickers.
what are you discussing?
OFF LIMITS .
You tell me SHM, since you started off with "Joe has cheerlearders" (referring to me by you) and cherry-pickers (in reference to you by me). Lets not steer off, shall we. wink
steer off, we shall not wink
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Zenje
here are the answers to your questions
Excuse my ignorance, but please clarify this for me, according to your understanding.
Were the following, (a)messengers, (b)prophets, (c)both, (d)none of these (explain/describe)
Please reply individually.
verse 381 clear describe the duties of a "rasool" and a "nabi" (messenger and prophet). Messenger dont come with a scripture but prophets do. all prophets are messenger but not all messenger a prophet. Muhammed was a prophet and a messenger. That is why GOD calls him both in one vese (3340, 379 ).
so to determine who was (a)messengers, (b)prophets, (c)both, (d)none, we simply find who was given a scripture.GOD himself calls does who are both messenger and prophet as such. here is a link for information about this http//www.submission.org/messenger/prophet.htmlNoah prophet - (337)
Abrahamprophet - (1941)
Ishmael prophet . (1954)
Isaac prophet - (1949 and 37112)
Jacob prophet (1949)
'the Patriarchs' means a figure mentioned as the ancestor of the whole human race. technically it means linage that started the 12 tribes of isreal.(2140)
Jesus prophet (337)
Job prophet (4163)
Jonah prophet (4163)
Moses prophet (1951)
Aaron prophet (1953)
Solomon prophet (4163)
David prophet - (4163)
Muhammad prophet (7157 )
the koran is actually the 19th and final scripture ever reveal by GOD. Proof again for people to deny the miracle of the koran as divine authorship and messengership. http//www.submission.org/Quran-19.html
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Salaam SHM,
So, since all mentioned are prophets, that means each one had their own scripture, correct? Are all these scriptures available/accessible to us?
yes