Israel

NielsJacob

Salaam Jafar

Nice to hear.
Thanks a lot for concerning..

I been looking long time for someone who share my belief. So I was glad to find this place/site.
But this article shocked me quite because I thought it was the general opinion.
Thanks again

Peace

unknownuser

Maryam/Mary as I know is only in NT. So I assume you thinking of another Mary/Maryam.

Here's a few passages from the OT

Miriam leading the victory dance after the drowning of Pharaoh

For the horses of Pharaoh went with his chariots and his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought back the waters of the sea upon them. But the children of Israel went on dry in the midst of the sea. Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took the timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. (Exodus - 1520)

Miriam is stricken with leprosy because she had angered the Lord

Then the LORD came down in the pillar of cloud and stood the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward.......And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam leprous, as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper. (Numbers - 12 4-12)

The children of Amram

The children of Amram Aaron, Moses, and Miriam. And the sons of Aaron Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. (1 Chronicles - 63)

So which Miriam is being mentioned here? Is this the mother of Jesus who died in Jerusalem 2000 years ago?

NielsJacob

Salaam Pazuzu

Thanks for reply

So which Miriam is being mentioned here? Is this the mother of Jesus who died in Jerusalem 2000 years ago?

I get your point.
Yoy are right there are two Miriam in the Bible.

Let look on what we have
There are two Miriam in the Bible one in OT and and in NT

The same two also is mentionet in AQ. (Thats what I see)
If we take 19.29 they call the 2. Mary for sister of Aron. I agree this doesn?t fit because she is not the sister of Aron (biological)
And it could let us to the conclution that there is only the same Miriam.

I thought about it a lot and I came to this conclution

Lets look at the passage in the context

Mary has given birth as an unmarrid women an she is in sorrow and confused. She afraid that her people will see her as a hore (19.20)
She know that God is accepting her, but what about her family/people.
She?s afraid to meet them. God is hearing her prayers so what happens is this
When she go to meet them, they call her sister of Aron. But why?
Its to lift her up and show her that they accept her.
When you want to adress somebody in a nice way, you dont call her sister af her own sister but you go like a level up.

Let me give you an example that came to my mind

My name is Jacob.

Imagine I am acused for doing something wrong. Let say my freind heard that I was sleeping with his wife. (God forbid)
My friend dont belive in this gossip, and he want to show to me.
I have to go and meet him, what could he say to tell that he still my friend
God could make him say (because he know I?m a beliver) Jacob son of Isac. I know you not a bad man. Your mother is a good women too.
Actally I cant imagen anything that could bring us closer together than that statement.
Should he have called me brother of Lars (my brother). No that woudn?t have the same effect.
Its a nice way of adressing people when you play a little with the persons name.

The statement (Sister of Aron) is not God?s own, but its peoples. This statement is like comming from God, becauce its showing the people accepting Miriam.
Also we should see it as a people statement and not Gods own.

Peace

NOMAD

Slaam

Well i think brother Pazuzu and I explain to you the best way possible. what we prentendo to say, unleast me is that NT is absolutly a fabrication.. Jesus from Palestine sun of Joseph the carpenter is not in AQ, theres not 2 marys in AQ, theres only one Maryam, sister of Musa and Aron, and these same Maryam is mother os ISA the messiah .
these Prophetic facts were adapted by St.Paul to Jesus the rebel of Palestine, wichj has nothing to do with God messangers...
HE was like the che guevara from those days, who rebelled to help the poor so its the mixture of Real Isa Arab History with Jesus the carpenter ffrom Palestine, its 2 Histories in one what they make in NT and is the major Falacy ands corruption wich we can read..its a fabrication from Sionist Dreamers and templars
For me AQ is very clear in these aspect, So AQ WORD Of GOD... Bible compilation of several man?s Histories, toughts, etc

Dont worry abou not having best english, i dont have perfect english also
Well i must confessed i used to have you prespectives that was a Holy Land in Palestine... but after reading History, Geo, etc ..well its hard to belive in it now... thats the perfect sionist dream and the focus and reason for stupid wars and untolerance..

) sunSalaam my friend, handshake pr

Zidane

Greetings of peace and blessings,

Just a view - As for now - I find it quite logical Jerusalem article http//www.free-minds.org/where-was-mohammed - Jerusalem - "holy"/original in being the place where Abraham pioneered in this line of prophets and scriptures/revelations and the place where a few prophets came to call for the "hajj" = announcement/delivery of the scripture/revelation to the people, etc.

As for the "kingdom of israel" (Solomon's kingdom - not Jerusalem as he sends winds all the way to Jerusalem/holy_land, etc) article http//free-minds.org/kingdom-israel - I find the article very informative in many parts - like the theory about the progeny Abraham left = Lot's family - to do do his "salat"/bond/duty - that is to deliver the message of God Alone to his people/town. However, as for now, I wouldn't agree so much about the "sout saudi" location of it - Maybe it would rather be the city "Nablus" like someone said about the "Samaritan" view.

Anyway, although how interesting this topic might be (many also find it very logical about the Jerusalem theory throughout the quran) we must remember that these history finding are not the true duty/bond/salat to us - One God and do good - as per various moral commands throughout the Quran - like be good to parents - speak truthfully - choose good responses - be fair and true, etc....

NielsJacob

Sallam Nomad

is not in AQ, theres not 2 marys in AQ, theres only one Maryam, sister of Musa and Aron, and these same Maryam is mother os ISA the messiah

The one that is described many times is the mother of Jesus (Jesus/Messias from NT)
Because (5.27).
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord.

or (5.7
Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary

or (57.27)
Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism

So we see its Jesus know from NT. How can you say something else..

The other Miriam is the sister of Aron/Moses. As I read it she is only quted once or twice in the AQ. First place In that expression where they call Miriam (mother of Jesus) for sister of Aron. Please see my answer for Pazuzu concerning this question.

And maybe second place As the daughter of Amram/Imram (6.12)And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew into through Our angel, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient

I can see that this fit with your point of view. But that mean that you should reject all the others passage and then only read this one and not the others.
How I see it is we dont know the name of Miriam?s (mother of Jesus) father. It migt well be the same as the other Miriams father. Anyway the possibility is there. And when we cant see for certain that is the first Miriam we cant conclute anything.

So as I see it you cant deny that Jesus in AQ is Jesus Messias send to the Isralits confirming Toran and bringing the Gospel (later corupted yes)

Peace brother

NOMAD

Salaam how are you my friend? nice post thanks for anwering pr group sun
Hope you in best form under Allah`s enlightment )

is not 527,
but 517 Transliteration
Laqad kafara allatheena qalooinna Allaha huwa almaseehu ibnu maryama qul famanyamliku mina Allahi shay-an in arada an yuhlikaalmaseeha ibna sun maryama sunwaommahu waman fee al-ardijameeAAan walillahi mulku assamawatiwal-ardi wama baynahuma yakhluqu mayashao wallahu AAala kulli shay-inqadeer

517Translation
They indeed have already disbelieved who say, "Surely Allah, He is the Masih, son of Maryam." Say, "Who then avail (Literally possess) anything against Allah in case He wills to cause the Masih son of Maryam to perish, and his mother, and whoever is in the earth altogether? And to Allah belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates whatever He decides. And Allah is Ever-Determiner over everything.

578Transliteration
LuAAina allatheena kafaroo min baneeisra-eela AAala lisani dawoodawaAAeesa ibni sun maryama sun thalika bima AAasawwakanoo yaAAtadoon

578 Translation
Cursed were the ones who disbelieved of the Seeds by the tongue of Dawud and Isa the son of Maryam; that is for that they disobeyed and they were transgressing.

5727 transliteration
Thumma qaffayna AAala atharihimbirusulina waqaffayna biAAeesa ibni maryamawaataynahu al-injeela wajaAAalna fee quloobiallatheena ittabaAAoohu ra/fatan warahmatan warahbaniyyatanibtadaAAooha ma katabnaha AAalayhimilla ibtighaa ridwani Allahifama raAAawha haqqa riAAayatihafaatayna allatheena amanoo minhumajrahum wakatheerun minhum fasiqoon
5727 Translation
Thereafter We made to supervene on their tracks Our Messengers; and We made to supervene sunIsa son of Maryam sun, and We brought him the Injil; and We made in the hearts of the ones who closely followed him compassion and mercy. And monasticism they innovated for themselves; in no way did We prescribe it for them, except for seeking the all-blessed Satisfaction of Allah; yet in no way did they pay heed to it as it should be truly heeded. So We brought the ones of them who believed their reward; and many of them are immoral.

IM NOT ARABYK NATIVE BUT

287 Transliteration
Walaqad atayna moosaalkitaba waqaffayna min baAAdihi birrusuliwaatayna AAeesa ibna maryama albayyinatiwaayyadnahu biroohi alqudusi afakullama jaakumrasoolun bima la tahwa anfusukumuistakbartum fafareeqan kaththabtum wafareeqan taqtuloon
287 Translation
And indeed We already brought Musa the Book, and We made to supervene the Messengers even after him; and We brought Isa son of Maryam the supreme evidences and aided him with the Spirit of Holiness; yet, is it not (the case that) whenever there came to you a Messenger with what yourselves did not yearn to, you waxed proud, so you cried lies to a group of them and (another) group you kill?

2253 Transliteration
Tilka arrusulu faddalnabaAAdahum AAala baAAdin minhum man kallamaAllahu warafaAAa baAAdahum darajatin waataynaAAeesa ibna maryama albayyinati waayyadnahubiroohi alqudusi walaw shaa Allahu maiqtatala allatheena min baAAdihim min baAAdi ma jaat-humualbayyinatu walakini ikhtalafoo faminhum man amanawaminhum man kafara walaw shaa Allahu maiqtataloo walakinna Allaha yafAAalu mayureed
2253 Translation
Those are the Messengers; We have graced some of them over some others; of them (there are some) to whom Allah spoke, and some He raised in degrees. And We brought Isa son of Maryam the supreme evidences and aided him with the Spirit of Holiness. And if Allah had decided, the ones who after them would not have fought against each other, after the supreme evidences had come to them. But they differed among themselves. So of them are the ones who believed, and of them are the ones who disbelieved. And if Allah had decided, they would not have fought against each other; but Allah performs whatever He wills.

Surat AAl IMRAN ( family of Imran)

333Transliteration
Inna Allaha istafa adamawanoohan waala ibraheema waala AAimranaAAala alAAalameen
333Translation
Surely Allah has elected Adam and Nuh and the house of Ibrahim and the house of Imran over the worlds.

334Transliteration
Thurriyyatan baAAduhamin baAAdin wallahu sameeAAun AAaleem
334Translation
An offspring of one another, (Literally some of them from some "others) and Allah is Ever-Hearing, Ever-Knowing.

335Transliteration
Ith qalati imraatu AAimranarabbi innee nathartu laka ma fee batnee muharraranfataqabbal minnee innaka anta assameeAAu alAAaleem
335Transliation
As the wife of Imran said, "Lord! Surely I have vowed to you what is in my belly in dedication; so accept (it) from me. Surely You, (Ever) You, are The Ever-Hearing, The Ever-Knowing."

336Transliteration
Falamma wadaAAat-ha qalatrabbi innee wadaAAtuha ontha wallahuaAAlamu bima wadaAAat walaysa aththakarukalontha wa-innee sammaytuha maryamawa-innee oAAeethuha bika wathurriyyatahamina ashshaytani arrajeem
336Translation
So, as soon as she brought her forth, she said, "Lord! Surely I have brought her forth, a female." And Allah knows best what she brought forth, and the male is not as the female. "And surely I have named her Maryam. And surely I take refuge with You for her and her offspring from the outcast Ash- shaytan." (The all vicious, i.e., the Devil)

337Transliteration
Fataqabbalaha rabbuhabiqaboolin hasanin waanbataha nabatan hasananwakaffalaha zakariyya kullama dakhalaAAalayha zakariyya almihraba wajadaAAindaha rizqan qala ya maryamu annalaki hatha qalat huwa min AAindi Allahi innaAllaha yarzuqu man yashao bighayri hisab
337Translation
Then, her Lord graciously accepted her with fair acceptance, and caused her to grow a fair growth, and He made Zakariyya her sponsor. Whenever Zakariyya entered the Chamber to her, he found (a) provision in her presence. He said, "O Maryam, however does this (come) to you?" She said, "It is from the Providence of Allah; surely Allah provides whomever He decides without reckoning."

338Transliteration
Hunalika daAAa zakariyyarabbahu qala rabbi hab lee min ladunka thurriyyatantayyibatan innaka sameeAAu adduAAa/-
338Translation
Thereover Zakariyya invoked his Lord (and) said, "Lord! Bestow upon me from very close to You a goodly offspring. Surely You are The Ever-Hearer of invocation."

339Transliteration
Fanadat-hu almala-ikatu wahuwaqa-imun yusallee fee almihrabi annaAllaha yubashshiruka biyahya musaddiqanbikalimatin mina Allahi wasayyidan wahasooranwanabiyyan mina assaliheen
339Translation
So, the Angels called out to him (as) he was upright praying in the Chamber, " Allah gives you the good tidings of Yahya, sincerely with a Word from Allah, and a master, and chaste, and a Prophet, one of the righteous."

(keep going)

342Transliteration
Wa-ith qalati almala-ikatuya maryamu inna Allaha istafaki watahharakiwastafaki AAala nisa-i alAAalameen
342Translation
And as the Angels said, "O Maryam, surely Allah has elected you and purified you and has elected you over the women of the worlds.

343Transliteration
Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki wasjudeewarkaAAee maAAa arrakiAAeen
343Translation
O Maryam, be devout to your Lord, and prostrate yourself and bow down with the ones who bow down."

344Transliteration
Thalika min anba-i alghaybinooheehi ilayka wama kunta ladayhim ithyulqoona aqlamahum ayyuhum yakfulu maryama wamakunta ladayhim ith yakhtasimoon
344Translation
That is of the tidings of the Unseen. We reveal it to you; and in no way were you close to them as they were casting quills (Literally pens) (to determine) which of them should sponsor Maryam, and in no way were you close to them as they took adverse stands (about that).

345 Transliteration
Ith qalati almala-ikatuya maryamu inna Allaha yubashshiruki bikalimatinminhu ismuhu almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama wajeehanfee addunya wal-akhirati waminaalmuqarrabeen
345 Translation
As the Angels said, "O Maryam, surely Allah gives you good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is the Masih Isa son of Maryam, esteemed in the present and the Hereafter, and one of the near stationed (i.e., stationed near to' Allah).

365 Transliteration
Ya ahla alkitabi lima tuhajjoonafee ibraheema wama onzilati attawratuwal-injeelu illa min baAAdihi afalataAAqiloon
365 Translation
O population of the Book, why do you argue about Ibrahim? And in no way were the Tawrah and the Injil sent down except even after him. Do you not then consider?

369Transliteration
Waddat ta-ifatun min ahli alkitabilaw yudilloonakum wama yudilloona illaanfusahum wama yashAAuroon
369Translation
A section of the population of the Book would like to lead you into error; and in no way do they lead anyone into error except themselves, and in no way are they aware of it.

370Transliteration
Ya ahla alkitabi limatakfuroona bi-ayati Allahi waantumtashhadoon
370Translation
O population of the Book, why do you disbelieve in the signs of Allah, and you witness (them)?

371Transliteration
Ya ahla alkitabi limatalbisoona alhaqqa bilbatili wataktumoonaalhaqqa waantum taAAlamoon
371Translation
O population of the Book, why do you confound the Truth with the untruth and keep back the Truth, and you know (that)?

(....) keep going

378 Transliteration
Wa-inna minhum lafareeqan yalwoonaalsinatahum bilkitabi litahsaboohu minaalkitabi wama huwa mina alkitabiwayaqooloona huwa min AAindi Allahi wama huwa minAAindi Allahi wayaqooloona AAala Allahi alkathibawahum yaAAlamoon
378 Translation
And surely (there is) indeed a group of them who twist their tongues with the Book that you may reckon it a (part) of the Book, and in no way is it a (part) of the Book, And they say, "It is from the Providence of Allah, " and in no way is it from the Providence of Allah; and they say lies against Allah, and they know (that).

384 Transliteration
Qul amanna billahiwama onzila AAalayna wama onzila AAalaibraheema wa-ismaAAeela wa-ishaqawayaAAqooba wal-asbati wama ootiya moosawaAAeesa wannabiyyoona min rabbihim lanufarriqu bayna ahadin minhum wanahnu lahumuslimoon
384 Translation
Say, "We have believed in Allah, and in whatever has been sent down on us, and whatever was sent down on Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaaqub, and the Grandsons, and in whatever was brought to Musa and Isa and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we are Muslims".

3100Transliteration
Kuntum khayra ommatin okhrijat linnasita/muroona bilmaAAroofi watanhawna AAani almunkariwatu/minoona billahi walaw amana ahlu alkitabilakana khayran lahum minhumu almu/minoona waaktharuhumualfasiqoon
3100Translation
You have been the most charitable nation brought out to mankind you command beneficence, and forbid maleficence, and believe in Allah. And if the population of the Book believed, it would indeed have been charitable for them;(some) of them are the believers, and the majority of them are the immoral.

Surat 19( MarIam)

1916Transliteration
Wathkur fee alkitabimaryama ithi intabathat min ahliha makanansharqiyya
1916Translation
And mention in the Book Maryam as she retired from her family to an eastern place.

(...) keep going

1927 Transliteration
Faatat bihi qawmaha tahmiluhuqaloo ya maryamu laqad ji/ti shay-an fariyya
1927 Translation
Then she came up with him to her people carrying him. They said, "O Maryam, indeed you have readily come with a fabricated thing.

1928Transliteration
Ya okhta haroona ma kanaabooki imraa saw-in wama kanat ommuki baghiyya
1928Translation
O sister of Harun, in no way was your father a woeful person, and in no way was your mother a prostitute."

(...)keep going

1934Transliteration
Thalika sun AAeesa ibnu maryamaqawla sun alhaqqi allathee feehi yamtaroon
1934Translation
That is Isa son of Maryam, in word of truth, concerning which they are wrangling.

CONCLUSION

1 MARYAM----- not mary of palestine, not even the same name in portuguese language, are 2 different names MARIANA is not equal to MARIA,

2 MAryam is Isa, Messiha Mother, The word of God .

3 IN all passages (ayat/signs) nor Psalmes or Dawud or Salmon are mentioned,(only Towrat (Musa)and Engil (Isa)

4 Musa Aron Zakarya And Myryam (ISA/ MESSIAH MOTHER) are same timeframe..

6 JEsus, Mary and carpentar joseph sun from Palestine was just some sort of Ghandi, whatever fftopic

7 ISA is NOT Jesus Transliterated; and MARYAM is not Mary

jedi angel

Salaam and hope it can enlight us and guide Us all trught the truth and wisdom withouth manupulations and misconceptions.. old folks and blind belifs net to jedi, I DONT WANT TO TEACH MY CHILDREN IN MEDIEVAL AKENAZI/TEMPLAR/MEKASHIPERS FOLKS

sunITS TIME FOR AWAKENING sun THE TIME IS NOW sun

prPEACE/PAZ

NomadAlAndalusi

NOMAD

Salaam Sisters & Brothers sun

@ to Nilsjacob( portuguese N?lson jac?be) wich one your mum has gave to you? Nils or Nelson?

Where did the Taurat and Injeel disappeared to ?

The disappearance of the Taurat and the Injeel are not
that big of a mystery at all. The information is
available on the web. Here is a synopsis.
Gospels
There were different sects of Christians in Arabia at
the time of the prophet. There were the trinitarians
at Najran, the Ebionites (monotheists who believed
Jesus was a prophet), of which Waraqa was a member,
the Colyridians who worshipped Mary as a goddess,
Arians (followers of the Biship Arius) who were
monophysites and possibly others. When Constantine,
the Roman Emporer, ordered the New Testament to be
compiled, his bishops (Augustine being one of them)
chose the so called Gospels that are now extant in the
Bible. It is agreed that Constantine destroyed the
rejected Gospels which numbered about 400. However,
some gospels actually survived. These were found in
Egypt and are called the Nag Hamadi scriptures.
The Gospels in Bible are admitted by all scholars to
be anonymous manuscripts that have been heavily
interpolated. However, it is agreed that there is a
common source for the "sayings" of Jesus but not a
common source for his actions. This common source is
generally recognized as the Q or the Quelle. This
source has long since disappeared.
As for the injunction to the monotheistic Christians
in Arabia to follow the Gospel, you must remember that
there are 2 recognized sources of transmission of
revelation. The first is the oral transmission and the
second is the written transmission. The appeal to the
monotheistic Chrisitans (the Ebionites like Waraqa) to
follow their gospel (only one gospel)is an appeal for
them to check their gospel, both the oral and the
written transmissions. What was available to the
Ebionites is preserved in the Quran as the story of
the birth of Isa (as), the story of Mariam's mother,
of Zachariya and Yahya, the story of Al Maida etc. The
4 gospels of the trinitarians at Najran are not
referred to in the Quran except to condemn such false
notions as God having a son, the crucifixion that
didn't happen and the Colyridian worship of Mariam as a
goddess.
As for the Taurat, the Jewish tribes in Arabia had
different traditions from that mentioned in the Bible.
The Jewish Masoretic texts differ from the Old
Testament now anyway. However, we know the Jewish
tribes in Arabia had different scriptures and
different oral traditions. This was probably due to
the fact that these tribes fled Palestine at different
periods of history. For instance, some fled before the
invasions of the Egyptians, others fled before the
invasion of the Assyrians, still others fled the
invasion of the Babhylonians, and others fled during
the invasions of the Greeks and the Romans. As these
tribes fled into Arabia over a period of at least 2000
years, they brought with them traditions from their
particular period of history. These traditons differ
greatly in many aspects from what was finally
collected as Masoretic texts. Some of these traditions
of the Arab Jewish tribes survive in the Quran as the
story of Musa and Kuthr, the story of Haman and
Pharaoh, the story of the disobedience of the Sabbath
where the Jews were transformed from decent human
beings into people who behave like apes, the story of
Al Dhu AlQarnain as well as others.
So what happened to the original Taurat and Injil.
Part of these traditions are preserved for us by Allah
in the Quran. The rest has disappeared as they
were no longer needed.
Hope this Helps

Canoot be 100% acurrate but can you SEE theres no Jerusalem or Palestine? hmm
Please if you have any extra Surat or Ayat with that issue , must not be in my AQ.. &
Well giveup angel peace sun

MaverickMonotheist

Peace NOMAD,

Almost all of this information is inaccurate. Constantine had nothing to do with the compiling of the canon, it was already established in response to the Marcionite heresy. The gospels we have are 99% the same as the gospels first authored. There are several quotes and allusions to the current canon in the Quran.

-Joel

Salaam Sisters & Brothers sun

@ to Nilsjacob( portuguese N?lson jac?be) wich one your mum has gave to you? Nils or Nelson?

Where did the Taurat and Injeel disappeared to ?

NOMAD

So.. This is Cristian actual view of the facts, but dont forget

were they may interpret "For instance, some fled before the
invasions of the Egyptians, others fled before the
invasion of the Assyrians, still others fled the
invasion of the Babhylonians, and others fled during
the invasions of the Greeks and the Romans. As these
tribes fled into Arabia over a period of at least 2000
years, they brought with them traditions from their
particular period of history

SHCOOLARS think that they just moved from Palestine to Arabia and then Palestine again? no..obvously not, no arqueological profs indeed.. they just trying to fit false translation of Bible where MISRM is translated as Egypt.. wich is also a long time fabrication and NO KING OF EGYPT was Called FIRWON..
Firwon is not a title to kings of Egypt, but a PROPER name like MARYAM, ISA, Nils(you) and Duarte(me).

PROPER NAMES OF PEOPLE AND PLACES MUST BE RESPECTED! Or we will be wondering in the Deserts of Mistranslations & false concept.. sun

Thanks for reading all
group pr

amuslim

Peace

So.. This is Cristian actual view of the facts, but dont forget

were they may interpret "For instance, some fled before the
invasions of the Egyptians, others fled before the
invasion of the Assyrians, still others fled the
invasion of the Babhylonians, and others fled during
the invasions of the Greeks and the Romans. As these
tribes fled into Arabia over a period of at least 2000
years, they brought with them traditions from their
particular period of history

SHCOOLARS think that they just moved from Palestine to Arabia and then Palestine again? no..obvously not, no arqueological profs indeed.. they just trying to fit false translation of Bible where MISRM is translated as Egypt.. wich is also a long time fabrication and NO KING OF EGYPT was Called FIRWON..
Firwon is not a title to kings of Egypt, but a PROPER name like MARYAM, ISA, Nils(you) and Duarte(me).

PROPER NAMES OF PEOPLE AND PLACES MUST BE RESPECTED! Or we will be wondering in the Deserts of Mistranslations & false concept.. sun

Thanks for reading all
group pr

Reminds me of a lecture that I saw with Ahmed Deedat. He was stating that the Christians have no right translating the names of the Prophets into a latinized version. He talked about how the Christians changed Jesus' name from Esau to Jesus. Now I know some of you here might disagree with that (NOMAD, Pazuzu, etc.) but I am just illustrating the point. Similarly, I think the same should be said of the Qur'an just like NOMAD mentioned. If the Qur'an was indeed revealed in Arabic, we cannot translate these words. It must stay in the pure form that it was revealed. If we translate it, then it becomes subject to man's creation and is no longer God's unadulterated word. God knows best.

Peace

MaverickMonotheist

This is not correct. Jesus' name in Greek in Iesous, which is the same name the Jews used in their translation of the Torah into Greek for the name Joshua. In fact, the NT epistle to the Hebrews uses the same greek name, letter for letter, as the Septuagint.

Allowances should be made for the changes into different languages. Doing otherwise is simply poor scholarship.

Peace

Reminds me of a lecture that I saw with Ahmed Deedat. He was stating that the Christians have no right translating the names of the Prophets into a latinized version. He talked about how the Christians changed Jesus' name from Esau to Jesus. Now I know some of you here might disagree with that (NOMAD, Pazuzu, etc.) but I am just illustrating the point. Similarly, I think the same should be said of the Qur'an just like NOMAD mentioned. If the Qur'an was indeed revealed in Arabic, we cannot translate these words. It must stay in the pure form that it was revealed. If we translate it, then it becomes subject to man's creation and is no longer God's unadulterated word. God knows best.

Peace

amuslim

Peace

This is not correct. Jesus' name in Greek in Iesous, which is the same name the Jews used in their translation of the Torah into Greek for the name Joshua. In fact, the NT epistle to the Hebrews uses the same greek name, letter for letter, as the Septuagint.

Allowances should be made for the changes into different languages. Doing otherwise is simply poor scholarship.

That is why I stated that people will disagree. I was trying to make a point by referencing a lecture that I saw.

Peace

NielsJacob

Salam Nomad my friend

I thank you very much for your greetings and your long posts. Im fine just been a little busy today. Thats why I didn?t wrote you earlier.
I hope you are fine in Portugal. I spend some nice time there some years ago so my greetings also go out to you people.
Acctually my mother gave me both names Niels Jacob. Funny that you also have Nelson. Some call me that (As Nelson Mandela). But as you can see my names are Christian names. And that also my background. (And thats also why its easier for me to use the english names (sorry)) I assume you also have a christian background or?

Before I read the AQ I was "Christian" but didn?t see Jesus as God and I didn?t belive in the stuff about that Jesus had paid our debts by his death. I didn?t belive even that he died on the cross.
I read the Bible without any instructing me in anything (priest and so). And I started to meditate over the words. Also I started to fast and tried to follow the comands and so.
I could see it worked ?cause my prayers came through. I had a great miracle even. I can tell you about that another time...(thanks to God)
But what I want to tell you is that the God I found in the scriptures was truely God and he helped me..
I started to go to church, but what i found I couldn?t take they called Jesus God. That was a chock for me and I still cant belive it. (But I was lucky I even found a church were the priest didn?t do that)
And I know many christians that dont see Jesus as God, even they are told to do so.
But anyway it let me to read the AQ and I saw that the words was according to my faith and what I had found in the Bible.
But in (traditional) Islam I couldn?t take that I have to follow a man words (Muhammed), so I couldn?t change religion like so.
All the time I been a submitter to God and for me OT and Jesus?s words are in harmony with the AQ.

As you can see I dont give up the OT and Jesus words just like that (I dont take all NT for granded but the words of Jesus is vital for me. Paulus is the worse corrupter I can think off).

So I just don?t accept your conclution like that. Thats why you gave me something to think about hmm. And you gave me also something to read hail. I can not garantee that I got it all in my understanding. So please forgive me if I dont answer all. (And you are right its 5.17)

But here is my answer

You are right that in 3.35 Maryam/Mary is described as Imran?s wife. Thank you for pointing it out. I didn?t see that so clear in first place.
But I found another translation that says
Behold! a woman of 'Imran said "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service So accept this of me For Thou hearest and knowest all things."
Ith qalati imraatu AAimranarabbi innee nathartu laka ma fee batnee muharraranfataqabbal minnee innaka anta alssameeAAu alAAaleemu
So I dont give up that easy.
Miriam /Mary was of Imrams tribe and that time it was normal to call somebody like daughter of Imram. So the way its put out dont really help us.
I know dont you dont take anything than AQ as standard. But if we have to put things in an perspective we have to look to other text at that time. And thats why Im refering now to NT (Sorry &amp
Here Jesus is 17 times called son of David ( I read). So during that time (and maybe still) it was normal to call the person like that. Miriam was out of the priest tribe and therefor named like that daughter of Imran and women of Imran. pr pr

Then you see that everything fits. Mary came to Zaccarias. And she gave birth to Jesus/Messias that confirmed the Toran and brought the Gospel.

If you dont accept that this "son of the carpenter" was Messias. It seem like all the words in AQ conserning Jesus is just talked in vain. I mean why should God have spend time of someone confirming the Toran if we dont know the person anyway
The problem about Jesus is that people start to call him God as written in 5.17 and they make up of the trinity wish God also is against (4.171)
and you own quote
And indeed We already brought Musa the Book, and We made to supervene the Messengers even after him; and We brought Isa son of Maryam

We are talking of a long period before Jesus came. Even the Moses book are completet after his dead (Moses) I think.. So its not the time of Moses as I see it.

Its true the Gospel are corrupted in 325 or that time. But I dont see in your second post that there should have been another Jesus who truely was the Messias.
The AQ mention all the problems that are after "Jesus the son of a carpenter", and not after somebody else called Jesus. (think also about the crucifiktion)
For the sake of not mistaken I know that Jesus name not was Jesus (and others also). It something they have change it too. So I agree on that matter ) (Okay I know you see it in another way ???)
For me its essenstial to follow the word in AQ that says that we shouldn?t divide the religion and there only is one true religion and thats to submit to God.
Thats why I cant deny what is given before (okay its corrupted yes). But I dont think its dissapeard just like that.

3 IN all passages (ayat/signs) nor Psalmes or Dawud or Salmon are mentioned,(only Towrat (Musa)and Engil (Isa)

You are right about that point. But your own quote and underlining handshake (2.87) says And indeed We already brought Musa the Book, and We made to supervene the Messengers even after him; and We brought Isa son of Maryam.
So in some way I see them mentioned.

I know we proberly dont agree. But as you open my mind for something. I also hope that I can bring something to you. And who know maybe we could agree on something inshallah sun

Paz/Salaam

Gnosis

As-Salaam Alaikum,

I have to say that if you think Isa (pbuh) in AQ is not the same as Jesus the carpenter as mentioned in the Gospels then you are greatly misguided. Isa (pbuh) and Jesus are the same. Of course there are fabrications in the Gospels but regardless Jesus the man is the same as Isa (pbuh) the Messiah, son of Mary (pbuh).

Jafar

As-Salaam Alaikum,

I have to say that if you think Isa (pbuh) in AQ is not the same as Jesus the carpenter as mentioned in the Gospels then you are greatly misguided. Isa (pbuh) and Jesus are the same. Of course there are fabrications in the Gospels but regardless Jesus the man is the same as Isa (pbuh) the Messiah, son of Mary (pbuh).

Isa in the Quran is not Jesus/Eessoo/Senor Hesu/Iashua in the Gospels because Isa in the Quran spoke Arabic!!
As thus Isa is not a (bastard) jew yet an Arab prophet! rotfl rotfl
The same thing applied on Musa and Moses.. Musa is not a (bastard) Jew yet an Arab too!!
Given in the Quran Musa spoke Arabic...

NielsJacob

Salaam Jafar.

Given in the Quran Musa spoke Arabic...

Where can uou see they spoke arabic?

Wish launguage did they spoke according to OT or NT.

I think Jesus spoke Aramitic about Moses I dont know. But offcouse he was speaking the launguage exiting that time. Uthervise nobody would listen/understand him )

I agree with Gnosis that they are the same persons. The persons in AQ are not just some figures with no value or inpact. And thats why they are mentioned in AQ because this people are sent by God

Peace

NOMAD

Salaam

@Gnosis

I have to say that if you think Isa (pbuh) in AQ is not the same as Jesus the carpenter as mentioned in the Gospels then you are greatly misguided. Isa (pbuh) and Jesus are the same. Of course there are fabrications in the Gospels but regardless Jesus the man is the same as Isa (pbuh) the Messiah, son of Mary (pbuh).

WEll if You say Jesus was the Son of carpenetr in Pelestine you just giving me reason... If theres a fatjher and mother, theres no miricle?!?! brickwall
So you rejecting the VIrginity of MAryam (Aroon/Musa sister who gave birth to Isa the Messiah.. if you think hes father is Josef the carpenter, theres no miricle in palestine see? you just enter in a crazy contradition & hmm

@NILS, hope your fine really and your story of life is almost 100% accurate with mine so weve got many in common belive me
I undertend you must have you work to do like me, theres no need to respondf faster i can wait few days and i hope you the same.

Well im making the compilation of All Ayat where MYRYAM, MUSA,ISA, Harun, Zakaryaa are and ill make my presentation in 2/3 days, if you dont mind too wait

for now i can tell you 100% sure that there are not 2 ISAS; 2 MARYAMS; 2 MUSAS; 2 Zakarya etc...
as long as there are no 2 Fir`won(only 1 and its a proper name also),

so What i can say in relation to BIBLE is in OT MIRIAM THE PROPHET is THE MYRYAM ISA MOTHER.. OF course that JEsus NT is ADaptation OF ISA REal History to that of Jesus the carpententer and some Mary Son who rebeled in Palestine..Im not taking the merit of Jesus, as i dont take merit to Ghandi, Saladin, MalcomX, MartimLutherK,ETCETC.. but Prophet ISa is just 1 and HE was Son of Prophetess Myryam(sister of Aroon/MUSA) and sponsored by Zakaryya

BY NOW TRY TO EXPLAIN TO ME THESE VERSES PLEASE 517Translation
They indeed have already disbelieved who say, "Surely Allah, He is the Masih, son of Maryam." Say, "Who then avail (Literally possess) anything against Allah in case He wills to cause the Masih son of Maryam to perish, and his mother, and whoever is in the earth altogether? And to Allah belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates whatever He decides. And Allah is Ever-Determiner over everything.