Caliphate system and Slavery
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But what does fatiyat has to do with slaves? Plus there are tons of verses that the hadith does not explain. Hadiths mainly deal with Muhammad's life even though we have over 20 prophets mentioned in the Koran. Plus there are many verses we will never understand anyways. But the main and core issues the Koran explains. Whatever we neeed for our salvation is clearly explained.
3.7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding
Any ruling from the Koran must deal with the EXPLICIT and not implicit verses.
i never said that fatyat means slaves, dude. Fatyaat means young girls but then why do they quraniyoo translate fatyat to 'maidens' if they only accept quran?
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MMA does not mean slaves. If you think so that means the whole Koran has passed you by.
Of course there is a much better explanation for Mamalakat aymanu... In fact the exlanation of it being slavery is no explanation at all but falsehood.
Then why don't you both tell us what is MMA?
While waiting for both of you to come back with MMA meaning, others can study the below verses regarding usury (riba).
2275 Those who consume usury do not rise except as one being influenced by the touch of the devil. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While God has made trade lawful, and He has made usury unlawful. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
2276 God condemns usury, and He grants growth to the charities. And God does not love any wicked sinner.
2277 Those who believe and do good works, and hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification; they will have their recompense with their Lord and there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
2279 And if you will not do this, then be informed of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
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Then why don't you both tell us what is MMA?
While waiting for both of you to come back with MMA meaning, others can study the below verses regarding usury (riba).
2275 Those who consume usury do not rise except as one being influenced by the touch of the devil. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While God has made trade lawful, and He has made usury unlawful. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
2276 God condemns usury, and He grants growth to the charities. And God does not love any wicked sinner.
2277 Those who believe and do good works, and hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification; they will have their recompense with their Lord and there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2278 O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
2279 And if you will not do this, then be informed of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
In Judaism
In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.
According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage#In_the_Bible
In ancient times, a concubine was a woman living in a lawful marriage arrangement with a man, but whose status was regarded as being less than a wife. Concubines were respected, had legal rights, and their children were regarded as legitimate, although the children of the wife (or wives) were most often given preference in matters of inheritance. While the inability of a wife to have children was a practical reason for the presence of a concubine in the family (e.g. Sarah suggested that her husband Abraham take Hagar as a concubine i.e. Genesis 161-3), the situation also sometimes reached absurd proportions, such as with Solomon who had 300 concubines along with his 700 wives (1 Kings 113).
Examples of concubines in Bible History"Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country." (Genesis 255-6 RSV)
"Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring, for he had many wives. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech." (Judges 830-31 RSV)
Four of the tribes of Israel (Dan and Naphtali, and Gad and Asher) originated from Jacob's concubines Bilhah and Zilpah. See Children of Jacob
"Now Saul had a concubine, whose name was Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah." (2 Samuel 37 RSV)
"And David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem, after he came from Hebron; and more sons and daughters were born to David." (2 Samuel 513 RSV)
"Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father, and the hands of all who are with you will be strengthened." So they pitched a tent for Absalom upon the roof; and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel." (2 Samuel 1621-22 RSV)
"King Belshazzar made a great feast for a thousand of his lords, and drank wine in front of the thousand. Belshazzar, when he tasted the wine, commanded that the vessels of gold and of silver which Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken out of the temple in Jerusalem be brought, that the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines might drink from them." (Daniel 51-2 RSV) (see The Writing On The Wall)
http//www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010114.htm
24.33. Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves (MMA) ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
Now we can see why the Sunni translation of MMA is wrong. Its not slave but concubine. The Koran says if they ask you for a book in wriiting(marriage contract) than give them one.
There is no real difference between a wife and concubine. Hagar, Ismael's mother, was a concubine.
Sunnis took MMA to mean slave and assumed the deed is writing. Anyways there is nothing in Sunni Islam that says aperson has to free the slave if the slave asks for it. How can that be of course since there would have never been slaves ever. But that was not the case.
Slavery is the most despicable act a human can do. The reason why the Koran forbade usury is bacause usury is exploitation, so what you think about slavery?
The Koran never said do not rape but we know its wrong. neither did it say not have sex with animals, but we know its wrong.
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I'm still waiting for huruf to provide the meaning of MMA.
While doing so, can you tell me why are you using other kitab or 'hadith' to 'complete' the Quran? You condemned Sunnis for associating Hadith with Quran but at the same time you are doing the same thing.
In Judaism
In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.
According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage#In_the_Bible
In ancient times, a concubine was a woman living in a lawful marriage arrangement with a man, but whose status was regarded as being less than a wife. Concubines were respected, had legal rights, and their children were regarded as legitimate, although the children of the wife (or wives) were most often given preference in matters of inheritance. While the inability of a wife to have children was a practical reason for the presence of a concubine in the family (e.g. Sarah suggested that her husband Abraham take Hagar as a concubine i.e. Genesis 161-3), the situation also sometimes reached absurd proportions, such as with Solomon who had 300 concubines along with his 700 wives (1 Kings 113).
Examples of concubines in Bible History"Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, and while he was still living he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country." (Genesis 255-6 RSV)
"Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring, for he had many wives. And his concubine who was in Shechem also bore him a son, and he called his name Abimelech." (Judges 830-31 RSV)
Four of the tribes of Israel (Dan and Naphtali, and Gad and Asher) originated from Jacob's concubines Bilhah and Zilpah. See Children of Jacob
"Now Saul had a concubine, whose name was Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah." (2 Samuel 37 RSV)
"And David took more concubines and wives from Jerusalem, after he came from Hebron; and more sons and daughters were born to David." (2 Samuel 513 RSV)
"Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father, and the hands of all who are with you will be strengthened." So they pitched a tent for Absalom upon the roof; and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel." (2 Samuel 1621-22 RSV)
"King Belshazzar made a great feast for a thousand of his lords, and drank wine in front of the thousand. Belshazzar, when he tasted the wine, commanded that the vessels of gold and of silver which Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken out of the temple in Jerusalem be brought, that the king and his lords, his wives, and his concubines might drink from them." (Daniel 51-2 RSV) (see The Writing On The Wall)
http//www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010114.htm
24.33. Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves (MMA) ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
Now we can see why the Sunni translation of MMA is wrong. Its not slave but concubine. The Koran says if they ask you for a book in wriiting(marriage contract) than give them one.
There is no real difference between a wife and concubine. Hagar, Ismael's mother, was a concubine.
Sunnis took MMA to mean slave and assumed the deed is writing. Anyways there is nothing in Sunni Islam that says aperson has to free the slave if the slave asks for it. How can that be of course since there would have never been slaves ever. But that was not the case.
Slavery is the most despicable act a human can do. The reason why the Koran forbade usury is bacause usury is exploitation, so what you think about slavery?
The Koran never said do not rape but we know its wrong. neither did it say not have sex with animals, but we know its wrong.
Using my common sense, slavery is a humiliation to humanity and it is wrong. Keeping concubine is a humiliation to women and it is wrong.
Study the verse 425, if a man come to asking to make your daughter as his concubine will you give your daughter to him?
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
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I'm still waiting for huruf to provide the meaning of MMA.
While doing so, can you tell me why are you using other kitab or 'hadith' to 'complete' the Quran? You condemned Sunnis for associating Hadith with Quran but at the same time you are doing the same thing.
Using my common sense, slavery is a humiliation to humanity and it is wrong. Keeping concubine is a humiliation to women and it is wrong.Study the verse 425, if a man come to asking to make your daughter as his concubine will you give your daughter to him?
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. When they become independent, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those independent. This is for those who are concerned about deviating from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
I quoted many aspects of the Old Testament which the Quran recognized. There are many aspects of the Talmud that appeared in the Koran like Solomon and the hudhud, Abraham and the fire, Solomon and the Jinns and the story of the sons of Adam and the raven etc. MMA is one of the terms in the Koran that is not explicitly explained wbut there are many such terms in the Koran. The Koran tells us that if there are ambigious verses in the Koran we are not to speculate. Legalism can only be created in Islam through explicit verses. So I can use other religious traditions to explain the Koran but I would not use them to create a legal framework. But looking at the verses of the Koran regarding MMA the explanation we see in the Old Testament seems to fit. MMA is a marraige done by oath only. All mariages in the West are technically concubinage marries since there is no dowry. Some have said that MMA is also marriages without engagement. Manny marriages today are done like that.
As far as giving your daughter as a concubine well could you imagine having to ask a slave permisiion from her parents? This shows that MMA is not a slave.
From the Koran however it is clear concubinage is not a recomended marriage but so is polygamy which the Koran discouraged but allowed. Divorce is another issue where it is allowed but the Koran did not always recommend. This is life which is why the Koran talked about concubinage in the same context as poverty.
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I'm still waiting for huruf to provide the meaning of MMA.
If you are wating for that, you better sit down. I think I have already said in this thread, and you know it also, that there have been long and whole threads en this forums dealing with MMA where the question has been discussed extensively and in depth. If you are too lazy to go into that, and even though you may be believe in slavery, I am not going to do that work all over again so you can relax as an slave master while others run your errands.
Rather you have to prove satisfactorily that MMA are slaves. Do that. First do that. Find somewhere in the Qur'an where MMA being bought and sold is approved and quote the aya. Your imagination or that of others are not a proof of anything.
Salaam
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If you are wating for that, you better sit down. I think I have already said in this thread, and you know it also, that there have been long and whole threads en this forums dealing with MMA where the question has been discussed extensively and in depth. If you are too lazy to go into that, and even though you may be believe in slavery, I am not going to do that work all over again so you can relax as an slave master while others run your errands.
It is not just for me only but also for those that new to this forum. You have more than 1000 posts and hard for us to find which one you are referring too.
Rather you have to prove satisfactorily that MMA are slaves. Do that. First do that. Find somewhere in the Qur'an where MMA being bought and sold is approved and quote the aya. Your imagination or that of others are not a proof of anything.
The 425 referring to two class of female. First is free or independent female. Using common sense, opposite of free or independent female is slave female. No ayat available as Quran does not provide explicit explanation on the meaning of MMA. Bigmo indirectly agreed to this and that is the reason he used other source to understand the MMA. I had fulfilled your request and it is your turn now.
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As far as giving your daughter as a concubine well could you imagine having to ask a slave permisiion from her parents? This shows that MMA is not a slave.
Sorry I'm not the one who recognized concubine. It is you who did. The bolded 'your' in the above quote should be referring to you not me.
Please be more responsible. Responsibility is one of the Quran's good teaching.
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It is not just for me only but also for those that new to this forum. You have more than 1000 posts and hard for us to find which one you are referring too.
The 425 referring to two class of female. First is free or independent female. Using common sense, opposite of free or independent female is slave female. No ayat available as Quran does not provide explicit explanation on the meaning of MMA. Bigmo indirectly agreed to this and that is the reason he used other source to understand the MMA. I had fulfilled your request and it is your turn now.Not me, do not look for my posts, I didn't say they were my posts. I did say there were whole threads about MMA. Look for the threads, they are long and everything is there. I am sure you are quite able to look for threads in the forum.
Precisely 4.25 ande many things are in those threads. Just take the trouble.
Nothing like what you say is to be had from 4.25, and that is also in several of those threads.
Salaam
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Not me, do not look for my posts, I didn't say they were my posts. I did say there were whole threads about MMA. Look for the threads, they are long and everything is there. I am sure you are quite able to look for threads in the forum.
Precisely 4.25 ande many things are in those threads. Just take the trouble.
Nothing like what you say is to be had from 4.25, and that is also in several of those threads.
Salaam
Are you saying that you don't have your opinion about MMA? What about concubine? Do you agree with Bigmo, MMA is concubine?
Fyi., I had checked some of the threads in this forum which related to slave and what I see is the Quranist can't come to an agreement what should be the meaning of MMA. What a shame.
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Here is the verse 425 translation by Rashad Khalifa
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.* Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
Footnote by Rashad Khalifa
**425 This law proves that the punishment for adultery could not possibly be stoning to death as stated in the laws of corrupted Muslims (see 242).Maybe the code19 believers want to comment on this.
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So, you looked through the threads and all you are albe to come up with, is the very same handed down translation of 4.25 which does not translate MMA and you discard the rest with the majestic there is no agreement amongst quranists as to what MMA is.
But youmust recognize there is a wide agreement about what it is not, and it is not slaves. And it is indeed surprising that that is all you can come up with. Is tht the best meaning you are able to come up with as to what MMA is? Is that the best meaning you can extract of that word. Because as I said, that is what the Qur'an tells us, to extract the best meaning. I do not think you havew bothered to much with those threads, since all you can come up with is this run of the mill translation, taken without careful thought from previous translations.
Why bother then?
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So, you looked through the threads and all you are albe to come up with, is the very same handed down translation of 4.25 which does not translate MMA and you discard the rest with the majestic there is no agreement amongst quranists as to what MMA is.
But youmust recognize there is a wide agreement about what it is not, and it is not slaves. And it is indeed surprising that that is all you can come up with. Is tht the best meaning you are able to come up with as to what MMA is? Is that the best meaning you can extract of that word. Because as I said, that is what the Qur'an tells us, to extract the best meaning. I do not think you havew bothered to much with those threads, since all you can come up with is this run of the mill translation, taken without careful thought from previous translations.
Why bother then?
At least Bigmo, Rashad Khalifa, our sunni friends and I have the courage to put out opinions or thoughts for public to judge. Do you have the guts to do so? Or guts to at least comment whether you agree or not to Bigmo's argument on the concubine?
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At least Bigmo, Rashad Khalifa, our sunni friends and I have the courage to put out opinions or thoughts for public to judge. Do you have the guts to do so? Or guts to at least comment whether you agree or not to Bigmo's argument on the concubine?
Of course not, I do not have any guts.
Salaam
Appreciate your honesty but sad to say that I do not deal with any person who does not have guts to express their own opinion or thoughts. This will be our last 'conversation' until you have the guts.
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Appreciate your honesty but sad to say that I do not deal with any person who does not have guts to express their own opinion or thoughts. This will be our last 'conversation' until you have the guts.
The issue here is whther its talking about slaves and whether the Koran allowed slavery. Your argument is that since the Koran did not explicitly ban slavery then it is allowed. There are many things the Koran did not explicitly ban but we know its wrong. Sex with animals is one of them.
There are many verses in the Koran that talked about freeing slaves. This to me is more important than just banning slavery since a person would not have slaves and not care about what others are doing. But here the person should strive to free slaves he does not own. Plus the Koran banned idol worship but still gave humans the freedom to commit shirk. Its not banning that should be looked at but what to do when it happens. When the Koran says to feed the poor, its not giving you a choice. When it says to do good with relatives and obey your parents, its not giving you a choice. So why is it with slavery you seem to see it as a choice?
A Koranist state can never legalize slavery anyways because it does not have that kind of authority. The authority to have one human own another.
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I have researched on the issue and can frankly agree on the point huruf was making.. nowhere do the quran says anything about MMA being sold and bought. What really confuse me is that if mma are war captives then there are dozens of verses in the quran talking about war but MMA are not mentioned even once in these war verses?! MMA are only mentioned in situations which has nothing to do with war. Another thing which has caused my doubt is that if MMA are slaves why are they called MMA And not slaves?!
An honest thanks to bigmo who made me do some research historically and quranically on this issue
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The issue here is whther its talking about slaves and whether the Koran allowed slavery. Your argument is that since the Koran did not explicitly ban slavery then it is allowed. There are many things the Koran did not explicitly ban but we know its wrong. Sex with animals is one of them.
There are many verses in the Koran that talked about freeing slaves. This to me is more important than just banning slavery since a person would not have slaves and not care about what others are doing. But here the person should strive to free slaves he does not own. Plus the Koran banned idol worship but still gave humans the freedom to commit shirk. Its not banning that should be looked at but what to do when it happens. When the Koran says to feed the poor, its not giving you a choice. When it says to do good with relatives and obey your parents, its not giving you a choice. So why is it with slavery you seem to see it as a choice?
A Koranist state can never legalize slavery anyways because it does not have that kind of authority. The authority to have one human own another.
The main issue is Al-Quran alone is not sufficient to guide mankind. Or in other word, Al-Quran is not complete or perfect.
Another good study case is the Forbidden or Sacred Months. What are the names of the months?
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The main issue is Al-Quran alone is not sufficient to guide mankind. Or in other word, Al-Quran is not complete or perfect.
Another good study case is the Forbidden or Sacred Months. What are the names of the months?
It sure is sufficient for me. What does knowing the months has to do with my salvation?