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  4. Caliphate system and Slavery

Caliphate system and Slavery

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  • A Offline
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    A2Z
    wrote on last edited by
    #101

    It sure is sufficient for me. What does knowing the months has to do with my salvation?

    You should asked the same question when we started the slavery and MMA discussion? And continue to ask the same question for each verse that you can't find the explanation inside Quran itself.

    Verse 2461 There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend.

    This where-to-eat verse suggests that Al-Quran's author not able to set priority. He kept the slavery, MMA and forbidden month cases hanging and busy detailing on less important matter.

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      Bigmo
      wrote on last edited by
      #102

      You should asked the same question when we started the slavery and MMA discussion? And continue to ask the same question for each verse that you can't find the explanation inside Quran itself.

      Verse 2461 There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend.
      This where-to-eat verse suggests that Al-Quran's author not able to set priority. He kept the slavery, MMA and forbidden month cases hanging and busy detailing on less important matter.

      "We did not leave anything out of this book? 638

      ?Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?? 6114

      ?The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient? 6115

      ?This is not fabricated ?hadith?; this confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe? 12111

      ?We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters? 1689

      "In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe" 12.111

      "For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail , a guide and a mercy to all who believe" 7.52

      "A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear . "

      "We have not instructed the in Poetry, nor is it meet for him this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear (3669]

      A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book."

      "These are verses of the Book that makes things clear "

      "These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes things clear;

      "These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "

      "By A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. "

      "These are verses of the Book that makes clear."

      "These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes clear;"

      "These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "

      "The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters."

      Sure seems the Koran is sufficient to me.

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        A2Z
        wrote on last edited by
        #103

        "We did not leave anything out of this book? 638

        ?Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?? 6114

        ?The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient? 6115

        ?This is not fabricated ?hadith?; this confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe? 12111

        ?We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters? 1689

        "In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe" 12.111

        "For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail , a guide and a mercy to all who believe" 7.52

        "A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear . "

        "We have not instructed the in Poetry, nor is it meet for him this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear (3669]

        A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book."

        "These are verses of the Book that makes things clear "

        "These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes things clear;

        "These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "

        "By A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. "

        "These are verses of the Book that makes clear."

        "These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes clear;"

        "These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "

        "The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters."

        Here are the contradictions of Al-Quran. Leave nothing, full of details, makes things clear etc. but its believers until today can't come to an agreement on MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc.

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          Bigmo
          wrote on last edited by
          #104

          Here are the contradictions of Al-Quran. Leave nothing, full of details, makes things clear etc. but its believers until today can't come to an agreement on MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc.

          You talk like a Sunni/Shia.

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            A2Z
            wrote on last edited by
            #105

            You talk like a Sunni/Shia.

            You talk like you don't know Sunnhi/Shia.

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            • B Offline
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              Bigmo
              wrote on last edited by
              #106

              You talk like you don't know Sunnhi/Shia.

              I used to a be a Sunni myself. You act like u know me better than I know myself.

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                faruk
                wrote on last edited by
                #107

                Here are the contradictions of Al-Quran. Leave nothing, full of details, makes things clear etc. but its believers until today can't come to an agreement on MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc.

                you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.

                37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.

                There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.

                4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)

                I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.

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                  Bigmo
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #108

                  you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.

                  37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.

                  There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.

                  4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)

                  I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.

                  Right. Things like MMA are tests the Quran is doing to see what future generations will do and what kind of spin they will try to put in the Koranic verses. We are told that we must never specualte on verses that are not made clear to us. Things like forbidden months are rituals, like haj and ramadan. The Koran reminds us in verse 2.177 that rituals like Qibla are a means to an end and not an end by themselves. When the Koran is says its detailed and clear, it means that everything we neeed for our salvation is made clear to us. You are also right to say that the Koran is timeless and many things that may not beclear to us now maybe so in the future as many things may not be clear to us now but were for the people of past clear. In the end what we need for our salvation is made clear to us, as verse 2.177 tells us. In the verse freeing slaves is clearly mentioned as a way for our to gain salvation. Somehow some still see it as a choice to free slaves when its clearly not. Charity in the Koran is not a choice but an order.

                  1071-7] Do you know who really rejects the faith? That is the one who mistreats the orphans. And does not advocate the feeding of the poor. And woe to those who observe the contact prayers (Salat) - who are totally heedless of their prayers. They only show off. And they forbid charity.

                  You shall give the due alms to the relatives, the needy, the poor, and the travelling alien, but do not be excessive, extravagant.

                  74.49. And (ask) of the Sinners "What led you into Hell Fire?" They will say "We were not of those who prayed; "Nor were we of those who fed the indigent; "But we used to talk vanities with vain talkers; "And we used to deny the Day of Judgment, "Until there came to us (the Hour) that is certain." Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.

                  So freeing the slaves when we can is not a choice but is placed by the Koran in the same category as feeding the poor and orphans and relatives. These are the saviors on the day of Judgement.

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                    huruf
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #109

                    Some people seem to feel that God, if He speaks in the Qur'an rather than in the Bible or the Universal declaration of Human rights, or whatever "document" they deem respectable as opposed to the Qur'an, that God should pander to their pickiness and feeling of the Qur'an, in order to be forgiven, having to be up to their most suspicious expectation of what a good god should do and reveal in order to win their approval.

                    God does not need anybody's approval. If one is are interested he should go and try to learn with sincerity, if one is not interested in learning and knowing but on exercising as an allknowing judge, he will waste his time. God does not pander to those who rank themselves as judges and are full of themselves.

                    Salaam

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                      Bigmo
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #110

                      Some people seem to feel that God, if He speaks in the Qur'an rather than in the Bible or the Universal declaration of Human rights, or whatever "document" they deem respectable as opposed to the Qur'an, that God should pander to their pickiness and feeling of the Qur'an, in order to be forgiven, having to be up to their most suspicious expectation of what a good god should do and reveal in order to win their approval.

                      God does not need anybody's approval. If one is are interested he should go and try to learn with sincerity, if one is not interested in learning and knowing but on exercising as an allknowing judge, he will waste his time. God does not pander to those who rank themselves as judges and are full of themselves.

                      Salaam

                      What I have noticed by some Muslims is that they are not really able to believe The Koranist arguments are Koranic. They have convinced themselves that Islam has no freedom and is outdated that they are not able to comprehend that our beliefs are Koranic and not some secular enlightenement ideas. I have seen this particularly among the liberal intellectuals in the Muslim world.

                      I think this is why they try to find some oxygen when they try to critique the Koran. They look for anything they can to find some areas that they can critique. Many of them have adopted the historicity arguments where the best they can come up with is the laws of the Koran are outdated and need to be modernized so to speak. I think this has a lot to do with inferiority complex that made many Muslims give up about Islam's ability to be compatible with modernity and the concept of democracy and human rights etc. Liberal intellectuals generally want a secular Sunni/Shia Islam. This is of course not acceptable to us since our differences with these religious sects goes beyond secularism and public policy. They are not able to comprehend how we dare attack some of the taboos they were brought up with.

                      Secularism does not actually do anything but limit religion in the public sphere and leaves it to individuals. This is not enough for us. We have an alternative interpretation of Islam.

                      I think many intellectuals want to discredit us as they have convinced themsleves that Western democracy is the only way foreward. How else can u explain their often flimsy arguments and desperate critiques? Their selective quotations from the Koran and their continious insistence on hadith inspired interpretations tells me they are desperate to discredit us as being Koranic.

                      I am not against democracy, and anyways given the Koran's fanatic emphasis on freedom is not really an issue to us since a democracy is a system that we can easly adapt to unlike the Islamic sects who have to deal with the numerous contradictions between their sectarian teachings and a democracy. However democracy does not change religions but limits them in the public sphere.

                      But our agenda as Koranist is much larger than that. Muslim intellectuals detect that and that scares them.

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                      • A Offline
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                        A2Z
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #111

                        you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.

                        37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.

                        There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.

                        4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)

                        I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.

                        Is this the ayat that you are looking for?

                        1643 And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who have received the Reminder if you do not know.

                        This is what other people are doing or earlier people did. They don't understand some of the ayat in the Quran and they went to ask other people they think able to give them the explanation. From here, this ayat, starts all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc.

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                          A2Z
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #112

                          Right. Things like MMA are tests the Quran is doing to see what future generations will do and what kind of spin they will try to put in the Koranic verses. We are told that we must never specualte on verses that are not made clear to us...........

                          This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.

                          Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;

                          http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10

                          If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.

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                            Maha
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #113

                            This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.

                            Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;

                            http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10

                            If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.

                            you misinterpret the brothers answer. Quranist are very honest, if there is something they dont know they admit it or they admit the disagreements. We do not fear disagreements.

                            Al quran it self says 'ask the one who knows' so it is not a sin to seek knowledge in the old testament as brother bigmo did. What is forbidden is to consider other books divine, which is the case with sunnies and shiites who consider ahadith for being divine LIKE the quran.

                            His understanding of concubines are not that bad. I can to a large extent agree to that. Concubine is a marriage, like we have something similar to marriage in europe as well. However it should be noted that women can have male concubines as well as stated in surah noor.

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                              Bigmo
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #114

                              This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.

                              Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;

                              http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10

                              If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.

                              The whole point I was making is that we do not need to know what MMA is for our salvation. The verse you quoted tells us these kinds of speculations are made by those who have an agenda to legalize stuff and introduuce stuff in Islam for their own benefits. I have said before we can not create a legal framework from verses that are nort made clear to us. There are plenty of verses that are clear to us that we may not debate or discuss here too often because its clear to us. Its just our way of understanding the Koran. We try to see what we can get most of the Koran. Most Quranist enjoy discussing and debating Koranic verses. However for salvation we do not need to know everything the Koran says since the Koran is filled with mysteries as life is filled with mysteries and its a scripture that is divine in nature and only God would know all of its meanings.

                              Unlike the sects we do not use verses that are not made clear to us to impose on others.

                              Can you imagine if MMA was not slaves the crimes these Sunnis and Shias created? The millions of lives being devestated. The kindappings from their homes, the anguish of the mothers and fathers not knowing where their sons and daughters went and whether they are alive, the countless women who were violated and forced into situations they despised, the many dreams shattered only to see their children meet the same fate as theirs. Can you imagine that?

                              Maybe this is what you should be criticizing.

                              Its your desperate attempt to find a reason why the Quran is not sufficient that surprises me. Because your argument of "why did not the Koran then say this" or "then why would the Koran say this but not that" argument tells me that you are desperate. Often you would accept hadith inspired interpretations of the Koran since they are easier to criticize. I have seen this done by many Christians who try to undermine us as being "unIslamic" who are influenced by Western thoughts. This is because its easier to critique Sunni and Shia Islam than it is to critique the Koranist. Many Westerners also want to believe that its only Christian European civilization that can inspire freedom and equality. They therefore have a need to undermine us. How else can u explain their continous attempt to deny that our views and analysis are not taken from an ice cream shop but form the Koran itself? I think many people just can't believe the Koran is saying what its saying.

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                                harris
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #115

                                Slavery was existed in Islam because the Muslim authorities wanted it and they relied on the verse of the Koran about "ma malakat aymunukum"(right hand possess) to justify that.

                                That's wat ive always been wondering... why DOES this verse allow it? I mean surely the Holy Book condemns slavery.. but why not here? Why are men allowed to have sexual relations with their wives as well as those your right hand possesses? Just seems wrong.
                                Peace.

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                                  savage_carrot
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #116

                                  That's wat ive always been wondering... why DOES this verse allow it? I mean surely the Holy Book condemns slavery.. but why not here? Why are men allowed to have sexual relations with their wives as well as those your right hand possesses? Just seems wrong.
                                  Peace.

                                  The reasoning for why there is a demarcation is because MMA is a different set/subset depending on how we see it, needs to be clarified because there are variations in what can and can't be done in certain cases. Quran doesn't allow slavery once and for all, it condemns it by showing it is oppression and MMA are not slaves. There is to be no sexual congress without marriage unequivocally. 424/2433/43. Former is about independent/free women contrasted with women under your oaths of protection etc. The MMA seems to be a subset of people who are supposed/pledged to be taken care of/protected, with/without families, who aren't financially well off or for other charitable etc reasons 436. Notice the categories and commonalities. Peace.

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                                    Bigmo
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #117

                                    That's wat ive always been wondering... why DOES this verse allow it? I mean surely the Holy Book condemns slavery.. but why not here? Why are men allowed to have sexual relations with their wives as well as those your right hand possesses? Just seems wrong.
                                    Peace.

                                    There are many verses that talked about freedom that were abrogated. Many isisues like stoning adulterers are not found in the Koran and in fact contradicts a life for a life and yet was introduced by the sects. Many verses that talked about Christians and Jews generally were made specific and many verses that talked about specific Jews and Christians were made general. In the end these sects care about what hadiths tell them and they simply adjust the Koran accordingly. So what the Koran would have said or noy would have never meade a single difference to them so we must not waste our time with what these sects did or would have done.

                                    From a Sunni website

                                    Authority of the Sunnah

                                    1. Definition of the Sunnah, and the History of the Sunnah, and the Efforts of the Scholars in verifying the Sunnah.

                                    One thing that must be mentioned here is that many Muslims get confused between the general term of Sunnah, which includes all the sayings and actions of the Prophet, and between the term Sunnah when used in fiqh issues where it means "recommended". For example, since the Prophet used to pray 2 rak'at before fajr prayer, we say that it is Sunnah for us to pray these 2 rak'at, which means that it is recommended to pray these 2 rak'at and not obligatory.

                                    In this article we are discussing the Sunnah in the general sense, and not in the fiqh sense. We are talking about the Sunnah as a source of Islamic legislation. Therefore, when we say it is obligatory to follow the Sunnah, we are talking about the Prophets commands for us in the Sunnah and not about the recommended actions such as the 2 rak'at before fajr for example. Please make sure that you understand the difference here.

                                    1. What does the Authority of the Sunnah mean?

                                    In Arabic, the wording is Hojjiyat As-Sunnah. This basically means that the Sunnah can be used as evidence in Shariah, and that Allah (swt) has ordered us to follow the Sunnah and avoid anything it has prohibited for us. In other words, this means that it is obligatory on every Muslim to believe in what the Sunnah tells us, and to act according to the Sunnah in all aspects of our life and ensure that we do not commit any actions that contradict the Sunnah.

                                    1. The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an

                                    The Sunnah can be divided into three parts

                                    Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it.

                                    Explanatory Sunnah. This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an.

                                    Sunnah that brings new legislation. This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an.

                                    http//www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php

                                    So what the Koran says or would have said has no bearing to them.

                                    This reminds of this verse

                                    10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."

                                    Basically what the Koran is saying is Muhammad does not have the authority to do what these sects claim the Sunnah came to do. Which is to bring forth another revelation that can change many aspects of the Koran. So what the Quran says or does not say is not relevant to these sects.

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                                      faruk
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #118

                                      The whole point I was making is that we do not need to know what MMA is for our salvation. The verse you quoted tells us these kinds of speculations are made by those who have an agenda to legalize stuff and introduuce stuff in Islam for their own benefits. I have said before we can not create a legal framework from verses that are nort made clear to us. There are plenty of verses that are clear to us that we may not debate or discuss here too often because its clear to us. Its just our way of understanding the Koran. We try to see what we can get most of the Koran. Most Quranist enjoy discussing and debating Koranic verses. However for salvation we do not need to know everything the Koran says since the Koran is filled with mysteries as life is filled with mysteries and its a scripture that is divine in nature and only God would know all of its meanings.

                                      Unlike the sects we do not use verses that are not made clear to us to impose on others.

                                      Can you imagine if MMA was not slaves the crimes these Sunnis and Shias created? The millions of lives being devestated. The kindappings from their homes, the anguish of the mothers and fathers not knowing where their sons and daughters went and whether they are alive, the countless women who were violated and forced into situations they despised, the many dreams shattered only to see their children meet the same fate as theirs. Can you imagine that?

                                      Maybe this is what you should be criticizing.

                                      Its your desperate attempt to find a reason why the Quran is not sufficient that surprises me. Because your argument of "why did not the Koran then say this" or "then why would the Koran say this but not that" argument tells me that you are desperate. Often you would accept hadith inspired interpretations of the Koran since they are easier to criticize. I have seen this done by many Christians who try to undermine us as being "unIslamic" who are influenced by Western thoughts. This is because its easier to critique Sunni and Shia Islam than it is to critique the Koranist. Many Westerners also want to believe that its only Christian European civilization that can inspire freedom and equality. They therefore have a need to undermine us. How else can u explain their continous attempt to deny that our views and analysis are not taken from an ice cream shop but form the Koran itself? I think many people just can't believe the Koran is saying what its saying.

                                      Well said. bravo bravo

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                                        faruk
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #119

                                        Is this the ayat that you are looking for?

                                        1643 And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who have received the Reminder if you do not know.

                                        This is what other people are doing or earlier people did. They don't understand some of the ayat in the Quran and they went to ask other people they think able to give them the explanation. From here, this ayat, starts all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc.

                                        Yes . this is the Ayat. Thank you.

                                        You should ask others and listen carefully , what everyone says. But at the end , you have to use your own brain/logic to decide and accept the best of the opinions you get. Not to follow the all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc blindly.

                                        3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

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                                          Bender
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #120

                                          Salaam,
                                          Here is a part of sura Yusuf, dealing with the subject.
                                          InshaAllah it helps to understand the subject a little better pr

                                          1219 And a traveling caravan came and they sent their man to draw water, but when he drew he said "Good news, there is a boy!" So they hid him as merchandise. And God is aware of what they did.

                                          1220 And they sold him for a low price, a few coins of silver, and they regarded him as insignificant.

                                          1221 And he from Egypt who had bought him said to his wife "Make his stay generous, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take him as a son." And it was thus that We established Joseph in the land and to teach him the interpretation of the narrations. And God has full control over his situation, but most of the people do not know.

                                          1222 And when he reached his independence, We gave him judgement and knowledge. It is thus that We reward the good doers.

                                          1223 And the woman, in whose house he was staying, attempted to seduce him away from himself. And she closed the doors and said "I have prepared myself for you." He said "I seek refuge with God, He is my Lord, He has made good my stay; the wicked do not succeed."

                                          1224 And she desired him and he desired her, if it had not been that he saw the proof of his Lord; it was thus that We turned evil and immorality away from him; he is of Our loyal servants.

                                          1225 And as they rushed towards the door, she tore his shirt from behind; and they found her master at the door. She said "What is the punishment for he who wanted evil for your family? Is it not that he be imprisoned or punished painfully?"

                                          1226b He said "She is the one who seduced me from myself," and a witness from her family gave testimony "If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar."

                                          1227 "And if his shirt is torn from behind, then she is lying, and he is truthful."

                                          1228 So when he saw that his shirt was torn from behind, he said "This is from your female planning, your female planning is indeed great!"

                                          1229 "Joseph, turn away from this. And you woman, seek forgiveness for your sin; you were of the wrongdoers."

                                          1230 And some women in the city said "The wife of the governor is trying to seduce her young man from himself; she is taken by love. We see her clearly misguided."

                                          1231 So when she heard of their scheming, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them, and she gave each one of them a knife. And she said "Come out to them," so when they saw him they exalted him and cut their hands, and they said "Praise be to God, this is not a human being, but a blessed angel!"

                                          1232 She said "This is the one whom you blamed me for, and I have seduced him from himself but he refused. And if he does not do as I command him, he will be imprisoned, and he will be one of those disgraced."

                                          1233 He said "My Lord, prison is better to me than what they are inviting me to do. And if You do not turn their plans away from me, I will fall for them and be of the ignorant."

                                          1234 So his Lord responded to him, and He turned away their plans from him. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.

                                          1235 But it appealed to them, even after they had seen the signs, to imprison him for a time.

                                          Salaam and may Allah increase us in knowledge,
                                          Bender

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