Your Thoughts on Secular Governments?
-
What are your thoughts on secular governments and how moral they might be? From a Biblical perspective anyway a secular government can be moral, because God allows all governments to exist, and it says if a government is fairly benevolent the good will not find it's laws hard to follow.
America, Canada, etc. seem to fit the Bible's definition of a fairly benevolent government. It tries to look out for it's people.
Koran perspectives? Does God consider secular government good government?
-
The only acceptable law is the one Allah created, the Natural Law.
All forms of sovereigns other than Allah, which includes democracy, monarchy etc... are unlawful in Islam.
The bible is extremely corrupted and you know it, so are many holy books and even history, they're all corrupted by the leaders, which happen to be the governments, the Roman Catholic Church etc...
-
And what do you base that on exactly? Who/what determines what the natural law is?
-
And what do you base that on exactly? Who/what determines what the natural law is?
This needs more than just a few words, if you want to know more read this article http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/162/236/
There's evidence that the people of Britain ( Albien ) in the past were muslims who followed the Natural Law, and their law was perfect until William the Bastard conquered them, since they were a minority.
-
Ok what evidence is there that the British of the past were Muslims? And second, is that website your answer for everything?
-
Ok what evidence is there that the British of the past were Muslims? And second, is that website your answer for everything?
Mostly, since it IS RIGHT, or the rightest you can find on the internet.
Read this to know about the history of Britain, http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/91/123/
Although you won't since it's too longAnyway, I'll quote the first evidence from SOL "The Mancus (Arabic meaning - Struck) coin shown in the image were minted in 773-774 C.E endorsed by the Albic (falsely stated Anglo-Saxon) Offa Rex (757-796 C.E.). It was discovered in 1841 C.E., and is dis-played in the British Museum. This coin is a simulation in general design, to the Muslim Mancus Dinar in circulation during the eighth century.
The centre text reads "'Neither there is, nor (ever) shall there be a deity for worship and adoration, save for the One, who neither is, nor (ever) shall be a deity for worship and adoration, and Muhammad is the Apostle of the One who neither is, nor (ever) shall be a deity for worship and adoration?, and the further declaration, engraved around the margin of the coin, ?Muhammad is the Apostle of the One who neither is, nor (ever) shall be a deity for worship and adoration, who sent him (Muhammad) with the doctrine and the true belief to prevail over every religion."
Obverse The centre text reads "Muhammad is the Apostle of the One who neither is, nor (ever) shall be a deity for worship or adoration, with the name of the Offa Rex written upside down within that text." The text around the circumference reads "With the foundation of (commonly wrongly translated as name of) the One who neither is, nor ever shall be a deity for worship or adoration (Allah). This (coin) was minted in 157 A.H." (157 A.H. corresponds to 773-774 C.E.)"The second evidence proves Abdun Nur's claim that some people of Britain (Albien) had to travel to another land after being hit by a comet. ( Those people were the ones who later perfected the Natural Law )
-
I personally believe a secular government indeed IS the best government we can get at the moment. Everything can fit under such a rule. The only thing that might be different law wise is that the punishment for Zina if caught by 4 witnesses in Islam is 100 lashes. Otherwise everything else can work in secular society.
Bascially the western world is more an Islamic society then the Middle East is ironically enough.
Many middle eastern countries try to enforce chopping hands, headscarves and clothing, not letting men and women date or even walk with each other, stoning to death, etc... and this stuff isn't in the Quran but rather bloody hadiths that have caused such falter.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
What are your thoughts on secular governments and how moral they might be? From a Biblical perspective anyway a secular government can be moral, because God allows all governments to exist, and it says if a government is fairly benevolent the good will not find it's laws hard to follow.
America, Canada, etc. seem to fit the Bible's definition of a fairly benevolent government. It tries to look out for it's people.
Koran perspectives? Does God consider secular government good government?
Yes, secular is for the best. Evidence
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
However
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
There will be those that choose other forms of government--and this is also okay. Spinoza argued a good argument for his day, maybe even for today.
Secular humanists have plenty of good things to say, also.
AQ sets the framework for many things, but it is not a cookbook and a car repair manual and all manuals. For things outside of the Deen, it is appropriate to seek wisdom where it can be found.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
The whole 'conception' of 'secular' government exist
Due to..
A tight grip of Sectarianism / Organized Religion in the past..WHEN
There were no tight grip of Sectarianism / Organized Religion in the past..
There will be no conception of 'secular' government.The conception of 'Sectarianism / Organized Religion' is something which is not endorsed within the Quran.
Furthermore..
Even Jesus laid out his attack on Sectarianism/Organized Religion, (which during his time were represented by the "Scribes and Pharisees" using 'harsh words' such as 'serpent and vipers'Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(Matt 23)Compare the 'attitude' of "Scribes and Pharisees" on the description above with today's Imams, Clerics, Habibs, Sheikhs, Ulema, Priest, Reverend, Rabbis etc..
As such.. to be exact... "Religious/Sectarian Government" (the opposite of Secular Government) is definitely not endorsed within the Quran or Gospel.
Salam / Peace
-
Well secularism is originally the result of Europe breaking away from the rule of the Catholic Church, because the rule of the Church had many of the same abuses as Sharia governments in the Middle East. The Church thinks it's Bishops, Priests, etc. speak and act for God.
The kings went along with this because it helped keep the masses in line, until Henry VIII wasn't satisfied with church rule, because the Bible says the king is sovereign in his own realm. That the king answers to God. King David or Prophet David as you would know him, being an example.
The abuses of Church rule brought about secularism and the Protestant Reformation. Yes Protestants are Christians, but we put more emphasis on the Bible and on reason then Roman Catholicism does.
I think secularism is best, because if a person is going to approach God, it should never be forced.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
Yes, secular is for the best. Evidence
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
However
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
There will be those that choose other forms of government--and this is also okay. Spinoza argued a good argument for his day, maybe even for today.
Secular humanists have plenty of good things to say, also.
AQ sets the framework for many things, but it is not a cookbook and a car repair manual and all manuals. For things outside of the Deen, it is appropriate to seek wisdom where it can be found.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Actually it says no compulsion in religion
-
And OP do you really think America's government cares about the people?
All they care is about money. They are greedy bastards.
If they cared about people, they wouldn't hide the cure of the cancer just to make money out of useless therapies.
If governments cared about people, they wouldn't exist, simple as that. -
Well secularism is originally the result of Europe breaking away from the rule of the Catholic Church, because the rule of the Church had many of the same abuses as Sharia governments in the Middle East. The Church thinks it's Bishops, Priests, etc. speak and act for God.
After Roman empire adopted "Christianism" as the sole / only official religion within the empire, the abuse of lower class people through proxies of dogmatic concept of religion started... within it's territory..
To keep the long story short; After the fall of Roman empire , some 'smart people' in Rome was trying to impose what's left of Rome on all of it's colonies through the power / authority of the Church / Religion centralized in Rome.
You can say that it's more authoritarian concept with many similarities with today "British Commonwealth" / "Commonwealth of Nations".
"Secularism" as thus is the result of "Ex western roman colonies" of breaking away from the rule of the catholic church in Rome..
The kings went along with this because it helped keep the masses in line, until Henry VIII wasn't satisfied with church rule, because the Bible says the king is sovereign in his own realm. That the king answers to God. King David or Prophet David as you would know him, being an example.
In order to do that the King invented his own Church..
Still not yet a 'secularism' per se...
It's a coup / takeover of power performed by a local king from centralized authority in Rome...The lower class people however still continuously fooled by a series of new dogmatic priest which takes order from the local King and not from Rome.
The abuses of Church rule brought about secularism and the Protestant Reformation. Yes Protestants are Christians, but we put more emphasis on the Bible and on reason then Roman Catholicism does.
I think secularism is best, because if a person is going to approach God, it should never be forced.The catholics continuously abuses anyone who they considered as a threat to their hegemony...
Ranging from Orthodox, Pagans, "Freethinkers" , Moslems (The political entity) etc..Freedom of thinking and freedom of beliefs was continuously suppressed and the church hold centralized authority to decide what's right, what's wrong, what people should be thinking about and what people should not be thinking about.
The abuse of church triggered many movements which oppose it.. some of them might not be 'secular' per se.. yet merely a change of authority to "decide what's right, what's wrong, what people should be thinking about and what people should not be thinking about" from the church to some other bodies such as "Political Party" within the Nazis and The Communists case , Kings/Sultans such as in Henry, Ottoman or Louis case, Militarymen such as in Napoleon and Attaturk case and also from centralized Kings/Sultans to local Kings, Sultans and Dictators such as in Ottoman Empire and it's ex colonies case (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya etc..). Some of them still linger on up until today..
Salam / Peace
-
Actually it says no compulsion in religion
It doesn't say religion it say dien
La Ikraha Fi Al-Dien..
There are no enforcement/compulsion in Attitude/Judgement/Opinion/Belief/View (On something)..There are no 'conception' of Religion let alone Organized Religion within Quran..
All religions are man made..Salam / Peace
-
It doesn't say religion it say dien
La Ikraha Fi Al-Dien..
There are no enforcement/compulsion in Attitude/Judgement/Opinion/Belief/View (On something)..There are no 'conception' of Religion let alone Organized Religion within Quran..
All religions are man made..Salam / Peace
Oh ok
-
Do I think America's government is perfect Kaio or perfectly benevolent? Nah. I know America has problems, but its way better then a totalitarian religious theocracy like the Middle East corrupting religion with politics, and claiming to speak for God.
America's government does try to look out for the rights and worth of all, in spite of it's problems, and yes, greed is part of it.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
Haters gonna hate. !
@Any who trash-talks America Do you live here? If so, you can leave for somewhere else that DOES suit you if you don't like it. If you don't live here, it is entirely possible that you are "darkening counsel without knowledge." Walk up and down the earth a little, first! ;D
Earth is not paradise, and no human solution is divine. This should not be a shocking revelation. Complaining about a problem without contributing to a solution is at best futile and at worst hypocritical.
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
One can live or move to where the situation suits them--but there is no need to attack the systems of others.
497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said "What situation were you in?" They said "We were oppressed on the earth." They said "Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it?" To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
-
Do I think America's government is perfect Kaio or perfectly benevolent? Nah. I know America has problems, but its way better then a totalitarian religious theocracy like the Middle East corrupting religion with politics, and claiming to speak for God.
America's government does try to look out for the rights and worth of all, in spite of it's problems, and yes, greed is part of it.
Being better than Middle East is nothing much you know, since Middle East is terrible.
-
Greetings and Peace, all group
Haters gonna hate. !
@Any who trash-talks America Do you live here? If so, you can leave for somewhere else that DOES suit you if you don't like it. If you don't live here, it is entirely possible that you are "darkening counsel without knowledge." Walk up and down the earth a little, first! ;D
Earth is not paradise, and no human solution is divine. This should not be a shocking revelation. Complaining about a problem without contributing to a solution is at best futile and at worst hypocritical.
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
One can live or move to where the situation suits them--but there is no need to attack the systems of others.
497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said "What situation were you in?" They said "We were oppressed on the earth." They said "Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it?" To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Yes there is. A muslim should not stand having sovereigns other than Allah.
You're just being a nationalist, which is bad, since nations should not exist.
Neither should any country at all.The first verse is totally irrelevant.
The second is badly translated, qawm translates to "race" not people.
What's wrong about America is it's society, and it's majority. Pretty much it's downright terrible. -
Would one define the situation of Somalia as optimal? This is what happens when there is no government. Move there if that is the system one desires.
This is a very good example of strawman. It is very sad to see people who claim to be 'muslims' and 'believers' to behave this way; you are unknowingly exposing yourself.
Salaam.