Night of the decree , Ramadan , Pilgrimage and the Restricted Months

cleanfox5982

The scorching heat (ramadan) comes in "qayz" ?

What is your proof ?

As for you assuming that the solar system is not used,

where did i assumed that the solar system is not to be used ? re-read my post carefully

Note also that i am not assuming that the solar based system to be used instead of the Lunar based system to determine the "appointed time " and Ramadan period as i personally know that both of the systems are a one system and each one has its role , can the moon shine on at the night without the sun ? i most likely uphold that the "appointed time " is determined / known by full moon plus + another celestial singes namely "planet " and or " stars " and of course these "appointed time " will coincide with a period/season of the year these season are caused by the position of the sun , so logically all the systems The moon + "planet " + " stars " + " the sun " will all be in a state while the time of the event come , now what is the first singe from these systems to indicate the beginning of the event ( Ramadan , pilgrimage , night of the decree ) ?

So how did Abarham determine the timing? How did he decide when to call for it?? Again, you didn't answer the question. How are the so-called announcements "timing" if they themselves need to be timed??

re-read what i did post previously
The " Al-ahilah / / Announcements " are surely not a time mechanism but appointed times , i already mentioned in some of my previous posts that the guys who announce the appointed times for pilgrimage and other events use a known method at that time to determine the date/ time of these vents. Those mechanism / singes was known and used by the other communities who have knowledge from the previous books.

I didn't tell till yet how the announcement of the appointed times for pilgrimage and people uses because i said that i am studying this i may inchallah know it or come nearer to it , if you know tell us so we all have knowledge , this is why we all study this , we learn from each other and we compare our understanding to corrected it or completed it.

did you post anything regarding how we would determine the timing of pilgrimage , can you show me ? i read your post about Ramadan and you already know what are my understanding regarding it especially its time and how to determine it , i didn't complete my study may Allah guide us to come nearer than this in comprehension.

cleanfox5982

Peace Alkitab,

So now that the meaning of "being present" has been established as false,

do not cut my words , re-read my previous post

Surely not witnessing the revelation as it makes no sense at all.

In my understanding (2185 (...) Therefore, THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein.)

Mean Those of you who are present at the time of the manifestation of the month of Ramadan knowing that this month occur in a specific time/season during the year and that seasons move gradually according to the earth / Sun positions ( as far as i know ) ,by the time autumn or winter season are manifesting in Arabia there is hot or spring manifesting in the opposite side. And also by the time there is a full moon raised somewhere announcing the first night of Ramadan there will be still daylight somewhere else , so it sound logic that you ,for example , being in a place where you witnessing the raising full moon or other celestial or climatic singes announcing fasting start for you while i am in another place where those singes didn't occur yet . so while you are among those who 2185 (...) Therefore,THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein.) i still not yet among them as i didn't yet witness what you witnessed

Where did i change the word witness to the word being present , didn't you see that ?re-read what i post

in this verses "Sh h d " also mean to witness but by being present at the time when the action acquired , mean to witness by being present to see the fact or the action or the event by your eyes.

So the word "Sh h d " mean to witness wither as a testimony without seeing with your eyes or witnessing as being present and seeing / looking at fact and actions happening front of you .

I saw the word "Sh h d " in verse 2185 as being from the second case mean witnessing the month of Ramadan by being present while the singes / manifestations at the beginning of that month acquired

ayman

What is your proof ?

What more do I need to prove that "scorching heat" (which is the meaning of "ramadan&quot comes in the time of extreme heat (which is the meaning of "qayz&quot? This is all common sense.

where did i assumed that the solar system is not to be used ? re-read my post carefully
Note also that i am not assuming that the solar based system to be used instead of the Lunar based system to determine the "appointed time " and Ramadan period as i personally know that both of the systems are a one system and each one has its role , can the moon shine on at the night without the sun ? i most likely uphold that the "appointed time " is determined / known by full moon plus + another celestial singes namely "planet " and or " stars " and of course these "appointed time " will coincide with a period/season of the year these season are caused by the position of the sun , so logically all the systems The moon + "planet " + " stars " + " the sun " will all be in a state while the time of the event come , now what is the first singe from these systems to indicate the beginning of the event ( Ramadan , pilgrimage , night of the decree ) ?

OK. So the solar system is used but you don't know how to use it according to 1712. How can you determine the year based on the solar system according to 1712?

17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.

According to 1712 the year is determined by the day and night. How can you use the day and night to dileneate the year? The only way to do it is to use the longest day/night - shortest night/day as markers. These are also called the solstices. So the only question becomes is it the summer or winter solstice? If you have a better explanation of 1712 then please share.

re-read what i did post previously
The " Al-ahilah / / Announcements " are surely not a time mechanism but appointed times , i already mentioned in some of my previous posts that the guys who announce the appointed times for pilgrimage and other events use a known method at that time to determine the date/ time of these vents. Those mechanism / singes was known and used by the other communities who have knowledge from the previous books.
I didn't tell till yet how the announcement of the appointed times for pilgrimage and people uses because i said that i am studying this i may inchallah know it or come nearer to it , if you know tell us so we all have knowledge , this is why we all study this , we learn from each other and we compare our understanding to corrected it or completed it.
did you post anything regarding how we would determine the timing of pilgrimage , can you show me ? i read your post about Ramadan and you already know what are my understanding regarding it especially its time and how to determine it , i didn't complete my study may Allah guide us to come nearer than this in comprehension.

Please reread my Arabic posts. I had clearly given the evidence in my post for the four inviolable full moons being the scorching full-moon and the three full-moons following it. The scorching full moon marks the fast while the remaining three mark the harvest feast (hagg).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

do not cut my words , re-read my previous post
Surely not witnessing the revelation as it makes no sense at all.
In my understanding (2185 (...) Therefore, THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein.)
Mean Those of you who are present at the time of the manifestation of the month of Ramadan knowing that this month occur in a specific time/season during the year and that seasons move gradually according to the earth / Sun positions ( as far as i know ) ,by the time autumn or winter season are manifesting in Arabia there is hot or spring manifesting in the opposite side. And also by the time there is a full moon raised somewhere announcing the first night of Ramadan there will be still daylight somewhere else , so it sound logic that you ,for example , being in a place where you witnessing the raising full moon or other celestial or climatic singes announcing fasting start for you while i am in another place where those singes didn't occur yet . so while you are among those who 2185 (...) Therefore,THOSE OF YOU WHO WITNESS THE MONTH shall fast therein.) i still not yet among them as i didn't yet witness what you witnessed
Where did i change the word witness to the word being present , didn't you see that ?re-read what i post
in this verses "Sh h d " also mean to witness but by being present at the time when the action acquired , mean to witness by being present to see the fact or the action or the event by your eyes.

So the word "Sh h d " mean to witness wither as a testimony without seeing with your eyes or witnessing as being present and seeing / looking at fact and actions happening front of you .
I saw the word "Sh h d " in verse 2185 as being from the second case mean witnessing the month of Ramadan by being present while the singes / manifestations at the beginning of that month acquired

OK. So you acknowledge that merely being "present" is not the correct meaning. So the question then becomes what is this fact/action/event happening front of you that you would be seeing/looking at?

Peace,

Ayman

cleanfox5982

OK. So you acknowledge that merely being "present" is not the correct meaning. So the question then becomes what is this fact/action/event happening front of you that you would be seeing/looking at?

Peace,

Ayman

Salam Ayman /

I didn't eliminate the concept of "being present " from the understanding of the root "Sh h d To witness " when its used on the verse 2185 , you did that , these are some comparative lexicon / semantics to see how the concept of "being present " is understood in that root

Examination of the root "Sh h d To witness " from "Makayees Alogha " dictionary

"Sh h d To witness "

. . . .
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Examination of the root "Sh h d To witness " from "Lissan Al-Arab " dictionary

"Sh h d To witness "

. . .

. . . . . . ; . .

; . . ;

. . . . .

; ; ; . .
. . . ; . .

. ; . . .

As you can see the use of the concept of being present and how its linked with the root "Sh h d To witness " look at the first examination as it conclude all its says

. . .

"Sh h d To witness " is a basic root who mean "being present/ Hodour " and "knowledge/ Alm " and "Announcement / Aalam " nothing from its derive/ branch goes outside this three meaning . from the root "Sh h d " there is the branch the noun "Al-chahada Testimony / witnessing " it include all the three meaning being present/ Hodour , having the knowledge/ Alm , and announcing the testimony / Aalam .

In my understanding being present in the case of making a "Al-chahada Testimony / witnessing " about a fact or event in the court is about being present to the court and you have been present and you saw the fact / the story that you will make your testimony / witnessing about it . In some other cases it doesn't not need to be present at the theater of the events actions to make your testimony / witnessing about it becouse it only need "knowledge/ Alm " like in the cases in verses

Say4610 'Have you considered? If it be from Allah , and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel hears witness to its like, and believes, and you wax proud, Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.

and

Arberry 1226 Said he, 'It was she that solicited me'; and a witness of her folk bore witness, 'If his shirt has been torn from before then she has spoken truly, and he is one of the liars.

and

4386 And those unto whom they invoke instead of Him possess no power of intercession, only he who bears witness unto the Truth knowingly.

In all this three cases as i explained before the root "Sh h d To witness " is about making a testimony / witnessing by having the knowledge/ Alm about the fact / event at the level the heart by knowing the truth / from Allah about these cases / facts / events / stories , the guy who make the testimony / witnessing about the shirt of Youssef / Joseph at 1226 wasn't present while the wife of the king tore his shirt , he make the testimony / witnessing based on his knowledge , common sens in this case , same as in the other verse 4610 and 4386 testimony / witnessing based on the knowledge based on knowing "the truth Al-Hak" from the book/ scripture /Al-kitab "

Now look at the noun "Shouhadaa / Witnesses " plural of one witness guy

2133 Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you serve / follow after me?" (......)

can you make a testimony / witness in front of Allah and the people / Nass that the plural noun witnesses in this verse do not mean / include being present ?

in other words if that questioning in that verse 2 133 / was directed to you Or were you Ayman a witness when death approached Jacob, what would be you answer ?

If you say i witness/ Ashad ! then its mean you were among the children of Jacob and present when death approached to Jacob sitting with them.
If you say no i do not witness La Ashhad ! then its mean you were not among the children of Jacob and you were not present when death approached to Jacob sitting with them.

What would be your answer ?

do your testimony / witness or show proof from the scripture or comparative lexicon examination.

I'll provide moor prof evidences inchallah about what we are debating.

My respect
salam

cleanfox5982

Salam to all ,

Hijri and Gregorian calendar are both fake

The corruption that has been made in both calendars calculation system is the fact that numbers of days in months is not the same , some months has 28 or 29 sometimes 30 or 31 days

*** The Hijri Calender

Is absolutely one of the big misleading / corrupting thing that happened after the death of the prophet , First what makes sens is that at the time of the Quran been sent there was a community that is already with knowledge from the book , they used to have pilgrimage / Ramadan / fasting / restricted months etc , and surely among this community the ones who received the book the righteous ones used to have and follow a accurate system of knowing time of these events ,
they use to have this knowledge before the "Al-Omyeen " ( those who don't have a previous knowledge from the Book , the community of the prophet Muhammad PBUH , the Quran never said they are illiterate or can't read or write , they are simply with no previous knowledge from the book/Al-Kitab) . so the point is that the mechanism used as a tool to determine the coming of the events was known before to the righteous among the people of the book and that the "Al-Omyeen " who also become a people of the book they surely followed the same method.
"Al-Omyeen " having a new calendar different than the other two community of the previous books is not a problem in my opinion , the problem is the mechanism / method / evidences used to determine the known events .

The first big corruption that happened in that matter is fixing the Hijra of the prophet as a starting day of the "Al-Omyeen " calendar , what is the most important day for "Al-Omyeen" The Hijra of the prophet "PBUH" or the reception of the Quran ? Definitely the reception of the Quran as it marks the beginning of the new revelation. I mostly think that they attentionely choose the Hijra day to hide this very important day/ night , as its "Laylah Al-Kadr / the night of the decree" , by knowing the time of that night you will know also where Ramadan is.

Second corruption is fixing the starting and the ending of months by crescent moon , while the correct way is to fix them / knowing them by the full moon , the marking of beginning and ending of the month is from the full moon to the full moon a very Claire evidence who doesn't need any clever tool or method or Claire weather or going to the desert to watch the first crescent of the moon or all the rubbish claims and teaching .

The third corruption witch is a direct result of the second corruption is the fact that months vary in numbers of days some has 28 , 29 , 30 or 31 , if the month was counted from a full moon to the next one you will never ever have this inconsistency , from a full moon to the next one there is thirty days exact , a month is thirty days since the moon was created , a "month/Chahr " is 30 days , the proof

584 If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in Allah and His messenger. And these are the boundaries set by Allah. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.

483 Those who put away their wives (by saying they are as their mothers) and afterward would go back on that which they have said, (the penalty) in that case (is) the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. Unto this ye are exhorted; and Allah is Informed of what ye do.
484 And he who findeth not (the wherewithal), let him fast for two successive months before they touch one another; and for him who is unable to do so (the penance is) the feeding of sixty needy ones. This, that ye may put trust in Allah and His messenger. Such are the limits (imposed by Allah); and for disbelievers is a painful doom.

Feeding sixty poor men instead of fasting two months, mean feeding one poor man in each day they guy wasn't fasting in it, sixty / 2 months = 30 days per month

There are twelve months during a one lunar cycle

936 The count of the months with Allah is twelve months in the book of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous.

According to the count of the months being twelve the number of days is
Twelve (months / one lunar cycle) x thirty days (one month ) = 360 day

the current Hijri lunar calendar containing 354 or 355 days , six days are missing !! , because they take off one day from some of the months becoming 29 days , by making a month 29 day the days and the months in the calendar will never much again for maybe many many years with the astronomical seasonal day ( the real day ) , if you born in winter with a specific climatic celestial atmosphere and you record that day according to the Hijri calendar and you want to celebrate your birth day the next year according to the recording day at the calendar you will be short of six days from the real physical climatic celestial day and after some years you born in winter you find yourself celebrating it in summer in absolutely different climatic celestial atmosphere day. The corruption they have done makes the days and months in the calendar moving every year and never will much the next year. this is why the month of Ramadan according to Hijri calendar acquire in different season after a couple of year , and they lie to people saying it because it?s a blessed month this is why it is moving through season as a matter of fact its only moving in the fabricated calendar , and this people when they fabricated this calendar they did nothing to altered it so at least the extra days or the missing days will be deleted after a while so the months in the calendar will coincide with the same astronomical seasonal reality .

So who is incorrect the Hijri calendar or the system of the universe?

the Allah's system is accurate and consistent

673 who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of ARr-ahman any inconsistency / Fault. So return vision ; do you see any breaks/ rifts / Flaw?

To have accurate lunar calendar someone should simply follow and record the moon and stars manifestations acquired during nights, and make sure of

Full moon to full moon based concept of month calculation starting from the darkness of the first full moon night, a one day is a combination of night and daylight, night is preceding the daylight. We do not count based in the 24 hours concept because its also fake, there is nothing called a month with 29 days and 12 hours and 45 minutes and 14 seconds, these are ridiculous jokes, or saying a year of 354 days 6 hours 48 minutes 36 seconds..one day is a cycle from darkness of the night to the next darkness of the night whatever the length of night and daylight is
The day number thirty will finish just before the darkness of the first full moon night of the second month
A one lunar cycle is passed after a cycle of twelve months, we finish counting it at the darkness of the first full moon night of the month number thirteen.
We Record celestial and climatic change in accordance to each month for study, as signs and accuracy .

The question is what is the connection between the count of the months (12 months as a lunar cycle) and the concept of the seasonal year and the astronomical year , mean the relation between the twelve months and the physical manifestation that happen during the nights ( celestial or astronomical cycle ) and the the physical manifistation that happen during the daylight ( climatic seasonal cycle or what is known as the agricultural cycle) ? will try to answer this in a separate post inchallah.

*** The Gregorian calendar

A brief research about this calendar concept you can see manipulation done through history to this calendar and the solar cycle mechanism of counting days , the old romans used to have only ten months in their calendar this is why some of them are name of numbers
September / sept / seven
October/ octo / eight .
November /Novem / neuf / nein.
December /decem / Dix / ten

Some of their emperors namely Gaius Julius Caesar and Augustus want their name to be in the calendar so the seven month become July / juillet and the fifth month become August / Ao?t
By adding two extra months becoming twelve months and counting the year based on the sun cycle by counting days not months they found that the cycle of the sun is 365 days when they split these days into twelve months as you will see it will never give a accurate number / reality

365 days( in one sun cycle) / 12 Months = 30 ,41 days ( per month) its from this fake error were it comes the concept of months being 31 or 29 , they are using the sun cycle-365 day and spiting it in the moon cycle - twelve months witch is not accurate , absolutely two different cycle and will never much and never that was the correct systeme , so the extra 0.41 day in each month ( witch is a joke , there is nothing called 0.41 day in the perfect system of Allah when about counting days ) they spread-ed it through some months becoming 31 days January 31 , March 31 , May 31 , July 31 and December 31 as you can see it's about 5 day plus but when you cumulate the extra 0,41 by 12 months its only 4.92 day , so its +0.08 day plus ( you can say its a tiny difference and will not affect the calendar but in truth even lesser than this difference will affect , with this +0.08 day plus the Solar calendar will never much the real sun cycle the astronomical or seasonal year , days in the calendar will never much every year , by the 0.08 plus the real sun cycle will finish physically whereas the solar year calendar-Georgian calendar in our case still not yet finished , and this tiny extra will cumulate each year and by certain time the difference will become days ) , February and January was the last 2 months in the old Roman calendar as i mentioned before , the months were only 10 and the year start with March , so apparently when they added the extra 5 days spread-ed through months the 0.08 accumulated and become extra days , they become front of the real sun cycle by 10 days , when First Council of Nicaea they decided to skip these days to much with the real sun cycle , also many countries did that in the 20 century by dropping day from the calendar , this is a short cut from Wikipedia for this phenomena

In addition to the change in the mean length of the calendar year from 365.25 days (365 days 6 hours) to 365.2425 days (365 days 5 hours 49 minutes 12 seconds), a reduction of 10 minutes 48 seconds per year, the Gregorian calendar reform also dealt with the accumulated difference between these lengths. Between AD 325 (when the First Council of Nicaea was held, and the vernal equinox occurred approximately 21 March), and the time of Pope Gregory's bull in 1582, the vernal equinox had moved backward in the calendar, until it was occurring on about 11 March, 10 days earlier. The Gregorian calendar therefore began by skipping 10 calendar days, to restore March 21 as the date of the vernal equinox.
Because of the Protestant Reformation, however, many Western European countries did not initially follow the Gregorian reform, and maintained their old-style systems. Eventually other countries followed the reform for the sake of consistency, but by the time the last adherents of the Julian calendar in Eastern Europe (Russia and Greece) changed to the Gregorian system in the 20th century, they had to drop 13 days from their calendars, due to the additional difference between the two calendars accumulated after 1582.) http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calenda

But this is not enough even if you delete the extra days they will re-accumulate after a couple of years passed because the inconsistency of +0.08 plus is still there , so when they added the two extra months February and January they found that the astronomical seasonal year finish after the calendar year , this is why in my understanding February become 28 days , they take off two days from February to mach to seasonal year

the seasonal astronomical year is 365 and the calendar year become with two days shorter so now again the calendar and the seasonal year will not much , this time the calendar will be shorter so they created the concept of leap year , when they describe the concept of leap year they presented it like that this leap year exists in the astronomical seasonal year mean its something that happen in the physical reality , that after 4 years a it comes a year with an extra day so they put it in February ( the last month in the old roman calendar ) whereas this all about shaping the calendar to match the sun cycle . so what they have done basically is that the accumulative error was altered every four year to cover the shortness , and when you search about this alterations that has been made to the Gregorian calendar in some academic research or official agenda / web site like Wikipedia they show this as that the Roman found inconsistency in the system of the universe and they corrected it while they are only trying to correct what was first build wrong from the beginning when they divided the sun cycle 365 day by / Moon cycle 12 months ) = 30 ,41 days ( per month) so it gives them a joke called a month with 30 days and almost a half day , so they created another fake concept to corrected it's called the 24 hours clock .

to be continued

Lena

handshake Very interesting!!!

good_logic

Peace Alkitab.

Thank you for your detailed information.
Please allow me to ask you the following questions (out of interest)

1- When does Ramadan start this year according to the true calculations? ( I have seen the date given by Ayman elsewhere in this forum, do you agree with it?)

2- How many days is it going to last?

3- After centuries of wrong timings and calculation,will we ever be "sure"?

Just wandering
Peace and appreciation.

nurmuhammed

Peace Alkitab.

Thank you for your detailed information.
Please allow me to ask you the following questions (out of interest)

1- When does Ramadan start this year according to the true calculations? ( I have seen the date given by Ayman elsewhere in this forum, do you agree with it?)

2- How many days is it going to last?

3- After centuries of wrong timings and calculation,will we ever be "sure"?

Just wandering
Peace and appreciation.

dears,

is there any ramadan month, like we shall fast on this month?
maybe it is again "mistranslation"

kind regards.

nurmuhammed

IF

then fulfill "asyiyaama" to the night (ila llaili)..." is being mistranslated in mischief by all translators as "...untill the night..."

THEN

when shall we "fast"(if there is any fasting) ?

http//www.aididsafar.com/fast.html

cleanfox5982

handshake Very interesting!!!

handshake

cleanfox5982

dears,

is there any ramadan month, like we shall fast on this month?
maybe it is again "mistranslation"

kind regards.

IF

then fulfill "asyiyaama" to the night (ila llaili)..." is being mistranslated in mischief by all translators as "...untill the night..."

THEN

when shall we "fast"(if there is any fasting) ?

http//www.aididsafar.com/fast.html

Salam Member Nurmuhamed ,

I don't know why you do keep posting this , you already did and i already replied to you , if you are convinced by Aidi safar's understanding of fasting and other subject that is up to your mind . Are you his Spokesman ? if you know him tell him to come and discuss it here instead of throwing his website everywhere.

If you have study , knowledge , understanding do post them and we discuss them , in the meantime it would be nice if you stop interrupting the thread by Aidi Safar's website link .

You have the freedom to throw them and i have the freedom to tell you to do not .

cleanfox5982

Peace Alkitab.

Thank you for your detailed information.
Please allow me to ask you the following questions (out of interest)

Salam Member Good logic , and you are very welcome

1- When does Ramadan start this year according to the true calculations? ( I have seen the date given by Ayman elsewhere in this forum, do you agree with it?)

My study about this is not completed yet and i do not want to jump and throw things that might be wrong , no i don't agree with the Date of Ramadan given by member Ayman , you can check the previous posts and see where are we about it .

2- How many days is it going to last?

3- After centuries of wrong timings and calculation,will we ever be "sure"?

Just wandering
Peace and appreciation.

It would be good if you keep following the posts here , i'll provide inchallah more comparative study and recapitulate by the end . May Allah guide us to Al-Hak / the truth in this.

My respect.

nurmuhammed

Salam Member Nurmuhamed ,

I don't know why you do keep posting this , you already did and i already replied to you , if you are convinced by Aidi safar's understanding of fasting and other subject that is up to your mind . Are you his Spokesman ? if you know him tell him to come and discuss it here instead of throwing his website everywhere.

If you have study , knowledge , understanding do post them and we discuss them , in the meantime it would be nice if you stop interrupting the thread by Aidi Safar's website link .

You have the freedom to throw them and i have the freedom to tell you to do not .

Dear Alkitab member,

We know that we have freedom to speak, I'd appreciate if u stop to talking about me and come to the mean point to understand the "ramadan" issue. I see how much posts u give here, which I do not get anything of it. it is maybe my bad).
About Aid safar i do not know him personally but i did talk with him by e-mail, and i did tell him to enjoy us here on this subject...
hey can you check this for me "asyiyaama" is it translated as to the night or untill the night ?

AND please!! keep your prejudice to yourself.
thanks.
sincerely,
nurmuhammed.

ayman

The third corruption witch is a direct result of the second corruption is the fact that months vary in numbers of days some has 28 , 29 , 30 or 31 , if the month was counted from a full moon to the next one you will never ever have this inconsistency , from a full moon to the next one there is thirty days exact , a month is thirty days since the moon was created , a "month/Chahr " is 30 days , the proof
584 If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in Allah and His messenger. And these are the boundaries set by Allah. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.

483 Those who put away their wives (by saying they are as their mothers) and afterward would go back on that which they have said, (the penalty) in that case (is) the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. Unto this ye are exhorted; and Allah is Informed of what ye do.
484 And he who findeth not (the wherewithal), let him fast for two successive months before they touch one another; and for him who is unable to do so (the penance is) the feeding of sixty needy ones. This, that ye may put trust in Allah and His messenger. Such are the limits (imposed by Allah); and for disbelievers is a painful doom.
Feeding sixty poor men instead of fasting two months, mean feeding one poor man in each day they guy wasn't fasting in it, sixty / 2 months = 30 days per month

This is not true on many levels.

First, please read 589 where the fasting of 3 days is a substitute for feeding 10 poor people. In other words, the conversion here is 3.33 people per day.

So clearly there is no standard formula between number of days and number of poor but it depends on what we are doing it for.

Second, the lunar cycle is not 30 days and this is an indisputable fact. So the time between two full-moons is not 30 days. It will sometimes be 30 and sometimes be 29.

There are twelve months during a one lunar cycle
936 The count of the months with Allah is twelve months in the book of Allah the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous.

According to the count of the months being twelve the number of days is
Twelve (months / one lunar cycle) x thirty days (one month ) = 360 day
the current Hijri lunar calendar containing 354 or 355 days , six days are missing !! , because they take off one day from some of the months becoming 29 days , by making a month 29 day the days and the months in the calendar will never much again for maybe many many years with the astronomical seasonal day ( the real day ) , if you born in winter with a specific climatic celestial atmosphere and you record that day according to the Hijri calendar and you want to celebrate your birth day the next year according to the recording day at the calendar you will be short of six days from the real physical climatic celestial day and after some years you born in winter you find yourself celebrating it in summer in absolutely different climatic celestial atmosphere day. The corruption they have done makes the days and months in the calendar moving every year and never will much the next year. this is why the month of Ramadan according to Hijri calendar acquire in different season after a couple of year , and they lie to people saying it because it?s a blessed month this is why it is moving through season as a matter of fact its only moving in the fabricated calendar , and this people when they fabricated this calendar they did nothing to altered it so at least the extra days or the missing days will be deleted after a while so the months in the calendar will coincide with the same astronomical seasonal reality .
So who is incorrect the Hijri calendar or the system of the universe?

The system of the universe that the god created doesn't have a solar cycle of 360 days. So your imaginary 360 days year is also incorrect.

the Allah's system is accurate and consistent

673 who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of ARr-ahman any inconsistency / Fault. So return vision ; do you see any breaks/ rifts / Flaw?
To have accurate lunar calendar someone should simply follow and record the moon and stars manifestations acquired during nights, and make sure of

Full moon to full moon based concept of month calculation starting from the darkness of the first full moon night, a one day is a combination of night and daylight, night is preceding the daylight. We do not count based in the 24 hours concept because its also fake, there is nothing called a month with 29 days and 12 hours and 45 minutes and 14 seconds, these are ridiculous jokes, or saying a year of 354 days 6 hours 48 minutes 36 seconds..one day is a cycle from darkness of the night to the next darkness of the night whatever the length of night and daylight is
The day number thirty will finish just before the darkness of the first full moon night of the second month
A one lunar cycle is passed after a cycle of twelve months, we finish counting it at the darkness of the first full moon night of the month number thirteen.
We Record celestial and climatic change in accordance to each month for study, as signs and accuracy .
The question is what is the connection between the count of the months (12 months as a lunar cycle) and the concept of the seasonal year and the astronomical year , mean the relation between the twelve months and the physical manifestation that happen during the nights ( celestial or astronomical cycle ) and the the physical manifistation that happen during the daylight ( climatic seasonal cycle or what is known as the agricultural cycle) ? will try to answer this in a separate post inchallah.

So far, your proposed calendar is also highly inconsistent, has nothing to do with the god-given realities of either the lunar or solar cycles and doesn't tell us when "ramadan"/the night of measure is. Your only good point is relying on the full-moon.

All those points that you raised have been dealt with multiple times on this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

I would suggest going through it before going in circles.

Peace,

Ayman

cleanfox5982

This is not true on many levels.

First, please read 589 where the fasting of 3 days is a substitute for feeding 10 poor people. In other words, the conversion here is 3.33 people per day.

So clearly there is no standard formula between number of days and number of poor but it depends on what we are doing it for.

Brother Ayman ,

the example you did give in 589 , even if the fasting days are not spited equitably doesn't mean that there is no standard formula between number of days of fasting and number of poor people to feed becouse there is a standard formula mentioned in 595

595 O you who have believed, do not kill game while you are in the state of i?ram. And whoever of you kills it intentionally ? the penalty is an equivalent from animals/Naam to what he killed, as judged by two just men among you as an offering delivered to the Ka?bah, or an expiation the feeding of needy people or the equivalent of that in fasting, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. Allah has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns , then Allah will take retribution from him. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution.

so simply the expiation on meaningless Oaths is not included in that standard , and if in this case is not included doesn't mean that the standard do not exist .

there is difference between "the Expiation / Al-kafarah" and " The Ransom / Al-Fidyah " the fasting and/or feeding the poor do vary depending if the case if it'is about "the Expiation / Al-kafarah" or " The Ransom / Al-Fidyah " and depending on the degree of evaluation of each fact . The standard Formula between the freeing of a slave or fasting numbers of days or feeding poor man , is not considered equitably in some of these cases but in other verses the comand is clearly stating to a equitable standard notably in

595 (....) or an expiation the feeding of needy people or the equivalent of that in fasting(...)

And also this standard is mentioned indirectly / meaningly in the verse 2184

2183 O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous -
2184 a limited number of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of days . And upon those who are "Youtikonakh" a ransom of feeding a poor person . And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew.

What would be your "standard formula" brother Aymen in this case of Ransom as being feeding poor man , how many poor man to feed as it is not mentioned in the verse above 2184 ?

Second, the lunar cycle is not 30 days and this is an indisputable fact. So the time between two full-moons is not 30 days. It will sometimes be 30 and sometimes be 29.

It would be great if you provide evidence / proof and it would be more accurate if it?s not about common sense as times shows that many common sense are wrong sense, and if you did count the days of each months during twelve repeated months that would be much greater. Can you make your witness about that? That you did observe and count them that between full moon to full moon there is sometimes 29 other time 30, is this consistent? Witch months are 29 and witch ones are 30 days , or they are not consistent and each month do vary from a year to another ?

I personally didn't counted them, and i'll try to do so inchallah. all i know for sure is that the system is consistent and that two repeated units for calculation are the month (full moon to full moon) and the day (from darkness to darkness)

So far, your proposed calendar is also highly inconsistent, has nothing to do with the God-given realities of either the lunar or solar cycles and doesn't tell us when "ramadan"/the night of measure is. Your only good point is relying on the full-moon.

I think i am not obliged to rush you have been posting in this for years and I am following the point I raised and some of your study and other people studies notably Lyath and other research and comparison from outside the free-minds website understanding perhaps we come to a better understanding.

All those points that you raised have been dealt with multiple times on this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
I would suggest going through it before going in circles.

I am not trying to contradict whatever you say there are things that are correct in your study and other that are wrong in my understanding , if I find out that I was wrong I?ll admit it and corrected it hope you do the same too. And I am sure you know that many things in your study are to be reviewed .

Salam

mmkhan

Salaam AlKitaab,

Please allow me to interfere.

I just wanted to point out a mistake done by translators that you quoted below. My intentions are only to help us understand better inshaAllah. Please check...

595

595 O you who have believed, do not kill game while you are in the state of i?ram. And whoever of you kills it intentionally ? the penalty is an equivalent from animals/Naam to what he killed, as judged by two just men among you as an offering delivered to the Ka?bah, or an expiation the feeding of needy people or the equivalent of that in fasting, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. Allah has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns , then Allah will take retribution from him. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution.

This translation shows the same translation of two different words as highlighted above. 'Adal means equivalent? hmm

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

mirjamnur

Salam all
I will not interfere, because I'm sure the last person to know something-I'll post only the root of adl ;D

Ayn-Dal-Lam = to act and deal justly, equitably, with fairness and proportion, adjust properly as to relative magnitude, establish justice, hold as equal, pay as an aquivalent, dispose aright, straighten, deviate from the right path, turn aside, stray from. adlun - justice, equity, accuracy, recompense, ransom, equivalent, compensation, instead (thereof).

is this not the same as equivalent? Thank you for clarification.
Peace peace

mmkhan

Salaam MirJamnur and all,

Really sorry for high-jacking other's thread. But I think it is important to share to reach the correct understanding.

If you translate "adl" as a long list of translations how will you translate "misl" as quoted in my previous post and "fidya". Please try getting translation of these two words also. It is never be possible for different words having the same meaning.

BTW, it is not called root as you said above

Thank you for your post.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

mirjamnur

Salam mmkhan
Thank you for your clarification. ;D i'm also sorry, if i'm disturb the discussion.
sorry, you can post your previous post again? i didn't find it.merci. Peace )