I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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These verses do NOT come from a perfect God and therefore I must reject the revelation's claim to divinity.
It truly pains me to say that I must now as a seeker of truth, renounce my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an this day.
ok faithful-jinn, it is you who started this thread by renouncing your faith rejecting the Koran by making the statement the 'verses do NOT come from a perfect God".
and now you are claiming that you do not know if the Koran is from God. hmmm..... can you state clearly what your position is? 'don't know" if the koran is from God is different than declaring the koran is not from God.
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ok faithful-jinn, it is you who started this thread by renouncing your faith rejecting the Koran by making the statement the 'verses do NOT come from a perfect God".
and now you are claiming that you do not know if the Koran is from God. hmmm..... can you state clearly what your position is? 'don't know" if the koran is from God is different than declaring the koran is not from God.
Okay let me clarify. I don't believe the Qur'an is the direct word of God anymore but I can neither confirm nor deny if some type of God does exist.
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Do you believe "Qoran" is the word of GOD? How can you choose what suits you then?
Where does it say in the Quran that it's the Word Of God? (Kalamullah)
Show me if you're truthful!It's again a legacy from "Medieval Scholars" where they're debating whether "Quran is created or not"..
And of course Quran is created.. and it's written by human, using human language.. it's as simple as that..
It's not holy at all....Qoran does not have contradictions. GOD s commands are a sacred duty!. If you follow your conscience, then your conscience is your "idol". We must follow GOD Alone.
Where does it say in Quran or Gospel or Torah or Tao Te Ching or other books which (some) human considered to be holy that "You should not follow your conscience"??????
ON CONTRARY..
Within some books in the bible bundle there are description that God DOES talk through our conscience!
And so does in the Quran... people who often ignored his/her own conscience is said to have 'a disease in their own heart'..And so far my conscience proved to be better than any others..
And the best part is my conscience never declare itself to be holy!!People who do evil, know very well that they're doing bad deed.. as their conscience told them so...
Yet due to some reasons (greed,hatred,envy,ambition and others) they choose to disregard their own conscience... if they continue to ignore their own conscience, then it will grow darker and darker and darker..As Quran said it best
"Those who do bad deed do it for their own souls and those who do good deed do it for their own soul"...Try It!
Pick any poor beggar on the street, strike him up with a baseball stick or whatever.. or if that's too brutal, steal his money! or mug him! If your conscience are still healthy you'll feel bad of what you did AND you do recognize that what you did is evil! Without consulting any 'holy books' or 'priest'!Salam / Peace
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If we take 4251 and bring in 6943 (which has a word denoting a staged/progressive revelation if you will)...then it appears to be a literal word by word. If inspired in the english sense, you'd have people waxing lyrical which might include errors and apparently God is being particularly detail conscious here. 5233 for example, if you're inspired by a kernel of truth e.g. and run with it, can you say the whole is the truth? I don't think so. One could well have made up some stuff in homage to the kernel which is not the idea presented by the verses.
Well, firstly i had to look up the definition of kernel -[
But yes, i agree with you, and i do believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God, although i do believe it's presented a form most understandable to the average man, not space age man, no doubt society will regress back from our current knowledge but we will still have the Qur'an.I was mostly hoping that my post would at least satisfy Faithful Jinn, surely it's far better to believe it is the inspired word of God then reject it entirely? It seems he has completely overlooked that option, although i haven't read all the replies in this thread.
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Try It!
Pick any poor beggar on the street, strike him up with a baseball stick or whatever.. or if that's too brutal, steal his money! or mug him! If your conscience are still healthy you'll feel bad of what you did AND you do recognize that what you did is evil! Without consulting any 'holy books' or 'priest'!Salam / Peace
what if you have no conscience? people do things thinking they can get away and some even find amusement in hurting others. if there was no God and holy book talking about judgment day then what about these folks? no accountability?
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Okay let me clarify. I don't believe the Qur'an is the direct word of God anymore but I can neither confirm nor deny if some type of God does exist.
so you are an agnostic then? what would be your basis to confirm or deny God's existence? how do you suppose you would go about doing that? how do you know that God exists in the first place? doesn't confirming or denying existence entail having knowledge.
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Well, firstly i had to look up the definition of kernel -[
But yes, i agree with you, and i do believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God, although i do believe it's presented a form most understandable to the average man, not space age man, no doubt society will regress back from our current knowledge but we will still have the Qur'an.I was mostly hoping that my post would at least satisfy Faithful Jinn, surely it's far better to believe it is the inspired word of God then reject it entirely? It seems he has completely overlooked that option, although i haven't read all the replies in this thread.
Felt I had to check the definition after I read that you did
I too think it's in a form most understandable to the average man. It's a discussion I've had off and on that it's not just some hidden font of obscure veiled references that only the chosen few will get. Sure there are levels and the more perceptive you are, the more you might get from something etc but it's also just...accessible and it has to be since it's for mankind not a culty clique.
yeah, about the op...no idea.
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It would be interesting to know from people who do believe that Quran is the word of God, on which basis they confirm that belief?
And if it is not, than we are debating about it as about any other piece of literature, don't we Jafar?
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so you are an agnostic then? what would be your basis to confirm or deny God's existence? how do you suppose you would go about doing that? how do you know that God exists in the first place? doesn't confirming or denying existence entail having knowledge.
Well yeah exactly. Confirming or denying entails having knowledge.
That's why I said I can do neither of those things.
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Felt I had to check the definition after I read that you did
I too think it's in a form most understandable to the average man. It's a discussion I've had off and on that it's not just some hidden font of obscure veiled references that only the chosen few will get. Sure there are levels and the more perceptive you are, the more you might get from something etc but it's also just...accessible and it has to be since it's for mankind not a culty clique.
yeah, about the op...no idea.
If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
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If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Salaam,
The messengers didn't fail but their people (most of them) fail.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
2252 And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the devil has cast, and God secures His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.
Salaam,
Bender -
It would be interesting to know from people who do believe that Quran is the word of God, on which basis they confirm that belief?
And if it is not, than we are debating about it as about any other piece of literature, don't we Jafar?
There is a whole section called Quranic Divinity you may be interested in. Some threads from the section
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16234.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11711.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11372.0Lots more if you search.
If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
There is little consensus on different things no matter where you go and what you believe in. Like I've said on this forum before, try a game forum where people will fight like cats and dogs over the meaning of a character's dialogue for example, when the dev that wrote that cha is right there telling them what it means. They will still insist that the dev had the wrong idea.We have people arguing over the need for for a hydroelectric dam when major cities that they live in get only 8 hours of electricity in a day! It's life. It's human nature; people are different. There are different ways of seeing things, different perceptions, pre-conceptions, environments, personalities. We are told to follow the best, we are told to reason, see, think etc. Combine all that and you can come to a decent conclusion keeping in mind that anything bad/wrong/evil cannot be commanded by God. If you feel there is falsehood, take it one step at a time...from the solid basis of what you definitely think/feel is true to the rest.
It's not just over this book. It's over so many things. Instead of singling one thing out, try to figure out why humans are petty, illogical, unreasonable, greedy, unkind etc. If you're thinking that one book from God should change all that, good luck. It's not magic, there is also no force involved. People have free choice. They have to change themselves before putting effort into any decent changes around them. Why follow it then? Since there is no force involved, people should come to it of their own volition if they recognise it as truth from God (obviously if they believe there is one) given what they see/know/have experienced. Others might come to it if they recognise it as a truth that holds true given what they see/know/have experienced even if they don't believe there is a God and chalk it up to wise words worth following etc. Some might not ever take it as the complete truth but believe in God, judgement and doing good. They would still be muslims.
Where does it say that the prophet of the quran was going to be a game changer? We have 2530 where his people will have forsaken the quran? No messenger has failed in delivering the message. People have failed in heeding the message throughout. There is a difference. Humanity hasn't evolved into a different species apparently.
The only difference is what you make. And then worry about the rest. One step at a time.
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There is a whole section called Quranic Divinity you may be interested in. Some threads from the section
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16234.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11711.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11372.0Lots more if you search.
There is little consensus on different things no matter where you go and what you believe in. Like I've said on this forum before, try a game forum where people will fight like cats and dogs over the meaning of a character's dialogue for example, when the dev that wrote that cha is right there telling them what it means. They will still insist that the dev had the wrong idea.We have people arguing over the need for for a hydroelectric dam when major cities that they live in get only 8 hours of electricity in a day! It's life. It's human nature; people are different. There are different ways of seeing things, different perceptions, pre-conceptions, environments, personalities. We are told to follow the best, we are told to reason, see, think etc. Combine all that and you can come to a decent conclusion keeping in mind that anything bad/wrong/evil cannot be commanded by God. If you feel there is falsehood, take it one step at a time...from the solid basis of what you definitely think/feel is true to the rest.It's not just over this book. It's over so many things. Instead of singling one thing out, try to figure out why humans are petty, illogical, unreasonable, greedy, unkind etc. If you're thinking that one book from God should change all that, good luck. It's not magic, there is also no force involved. People have free choice. They have to change themselves before putting effort into any decent changes around them. Why follow it then? Since there is no force involved, people should come to it of their own volition if they recognise it as truth from God (obviously if they believe there is one) given what they see/know/have experienced. Others might come to it if they recognise it as a truth that holds true given what they see/know/have experienced even if they don't believe there is a God and chalk it up to wise words worth following etc. Some might not ever take it as the complete truth but believe in God, judgement and doing good. They would still be muslims.
Where does it say that the prophet of the quran was going to be a game changer? We have 2530 where his people will have forsaken the quran? No messenger has failed in delivering the message. People have failed in heeding the message throughout. There is a difference. Humanity hasn't evolved into a different species apparently.
The only difference is what you make. And then worry about the rest. One step at a time.
Good , wise words...
Nevertheless...
The more I read things here, the more I realize how much Mr Rashad Khalifa PhD. was probably right overall, in his message. I used to reject him completely, especially when some Arab speaking people from this Forum showed that miracle 19 was incorrect etc, but now I even think that among the contemporary, modern so-called theologians, his reasoning and message, unifying all of the three monotheist ideas, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as a messenger of the covenant, is the best. I can hardly find any errors in his appendices, although some might consider them as new hadiths.
It is also pity that so little credit is given to him, since he is the one who created the modern Quran-alone, hadith-free Islam that so many feed upon now, even the very existence of this Forum is in debt with him.
I also think that hadn't he been assassinated by Muslim fanatics, perhaps he would have had the opportunity to upgrade his views and correct some opinions discovering even more things.
I accepted Islam mainly because of the 19miracle proof and his explanations, but later some people persuaded me that it is all utter delusional slosh and bad version of Quran.But then what are we left with? ???
As @Faithful Jinn so well said,
If it's so understandable why is there so little consensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
I am just plainly tired of reading different translations and different meanings, disputes over the roots and etymology of words etc, without anybody agreeing on anything, and all that just killed in me not only the wish to go deeper, but even to learn Arabic!
And thank you @savage_carrot for the links.
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Perhaps my judgment has been hasty. I retract my previous statements and declare my own ignorance.
I simply don't know anymore. I'm going to have to do some soul searching. I'm going to pray for some guidance or revelation.
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Good , wise words...
Nevertheless...
The more I read things here, the more I realize how much Mr Rashad Khalifa PhD. was probably right overall, in his message. I used to reject him completely, especially when some Arab speaking people from this Forum showed that miracle 19 was incorrect etc, but now I even think that among the contemporary, modern so-called theologians, his reasoning and message, unifying all of the three monotheist ideas, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as a messenger of the covenant, is the best. I can hardly find any errors in his appendices, although some might consider them as new hadiths.
It is also pity that so little credit is given to him, since he is the one who created the modern Quran-alone, hadith-free Islam that so many feed upon now, even the very existence of this Forum is in debt with him.
I also think that hadn't he been assassinated by Muslim fanatics, perhaps he would have had the opportunity to upgrade his views and correct some opinions discovering even more things.
I accepted Islam mainly because of the 19miracle proof and his explanations, but later some people persuaded me that it is all utter delusional slosh and bad version of Quran.I came to the hadith free version from the submission site as well.
But then what are we left with? ???
As @Faithful Jinn so well said,
I am just plainly tired of reading different translations and different meanings, disputes over the roots and etymology of words etc, without anybody agreeing on anything, and all that just killed in me not only the wish to go deeper, but even to learn Arabic!And thank you @savage_carrot for the links.
I understand that it can be overwhelming and just plain irritating at times. I usually avoid most of it unless I see obvious issues. I actually enjoy reading elegant/simple translations and/or doing concordances of words (corpus quran is an easy to use site). I also do think that reasoning is one of the most important tools we should use in this regard, or in any situation. Forget the confusion and just stick to the basics and build from there. If it doesn't go anywhere, least you have something solid you can rely on and/or can confirm.peace
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Perhaps my judgment has been hasty. I retract my previous statements and declare my own ignorance.
I simply don't know anymore. I'm going to have to do some soul searching. I'm going to pray for some guidance or revelation.
Good to know. Update if you want.
peace
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Thank you @savage_carrot!
I appreciate very much your sincerity and your confession
I came to the hadith free version from the submission site as well.
I might re-evaluate Mr Khalifa's ideas and message again, because I consider them the best acceptable stand for the relationship with God in the computer age. )
God is running everything sun
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what if you have no conscience? people do things thinking they can get away and some even find amusement in hurting others. if there was no God and holy book talking about judgment day then what about these folks? no accountability?
No human being born into this world without conscience..
As for those who do bad deed... initially their conscience does 'call out' to them.. yet they choose to ignore... and ignore.. and ignore.. until it 'dies out'...
And it's within God's law a.k.a Natural's law that 'everybody will get what they deserve'..
Those who planted good seed shall have good harvest and those who planted bad seed shall have bad harvest.It's a LAW and nobody can break it.. whenever they believe it or not, it doesn't matter at all.. as the LAW is binding to everyone.. In similitude as the earth is round.. whenever people believe it or not, it doesn't matter.. as the earth is round even when no one believe in it.. Even when there's no book which told everyone that the earth is round..
That's why the #1 Guiding Principle is
Truth doesn't need any protection, it just need to be told... and people are FREE yes.. FREE To believe whatever they want...And the Kuffars shall do everything on their power including propaganda, terror, lies/deceit and murder to keep the truth from being told to the masses. That's how you can identify which one are the 'true kuffars'... and certainly it's not based on 'cult/sect/religion'...
Salam / Peace
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Thank you @savage_carrot!
I appreciate very much your sincerity and your confession
I might re-evaluate Mr Khalifa's ideas and message again, because I consider them the best acceptable stand for the relationship with God in the computer age.
God is running everything sun
Good to know this, I personally think Dr Rashad's idea is the most outstanding, and miracle of 19 is really shining. Some people try to disregard this miracle, but so far none convince me yet, because just by simple counting in Quran manually, I actually find that this is true.
And indeed this 19 miracle is THE foundation that brought Dr Rashad to conclusion that we must follow Quran alone, his idea spread and start the Quran alone trend in the world.
Ironically, now the people who quickly reject miracle 19 without deeper research, was actually brought to Quran alone by the miracle of 19 itself.
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If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses?which constitute the essence of the scripture?as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this?all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
The Qur'an answers your own questions. It seems as if you've become so content in your disbelieve that nothing can even persuade you a little now.