I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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You know, @Faithful-Jinn, I actually wanted, needed, and so much hoped, the Quran to be of God, and to be the real direct word of God, so much so, to avoid being led and misguided by humans, not to be at the mercy of transient and whimsical human opinions...
But it just resulted an impossibility for one who is not Arab-speaking, one is dependent on human explanations and translations, and sheer luck can save you from total slosh in meanings and significations.
I realized that no better situation is for Arab-speaking neither.
So we are all forced to be referred and addressed to one another trying to clarify the mishmash with feeble and poor human means .Hence the proliferation and creation of hadiths. No wonder. Hadiths are in. Mere need.
What a huge deception that God cannot express himself to all humanity and for all times... )
Or "He" enjoys engaging us in verbal and grammatical jugglery all the time?
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Why are you seeking defiance ? I meant good luck for the rest of his spiritual journey and life in general, I really cannot see how you misunderstood this. As for your question, it is interesting, the same could be argued for the previous revelations as well and sincerely, I do not know. How can a message be clear, when it cannot be understood universally, and can easily be intentionally obscured ? I am still unsure as to if, the Qu'ran claims itself to be for all times, and if it does, how and why, so I will abstain from commenting on that issue.
I am sorry if I misunderstood your good wishes.
One should learn to express himself promptly in spite of media being the computer )Thank you for sharing your doubts, too.
But you see, the previous Scriptures never claimed to be direct word of God or from god, just inspired by god... -
You know, @Faithful-Jinn, I actually needed, and so much hoped, the Quran to be of God and the direct word of God, so to avoid being led and misguided by humans!
But it just resulted an impossibility for one who is not Arab-speaking, one is dependent on human explanations and translations, and sheer luck can save you from total slosh in meanings and significations.
I realized that no better situation is for Arab-speaking neither.Hence the proliferation and creation of hadiths. No wonder. Hadiths are in. Mere need.
What a huge deception that God cannot express himself to all humanity and for all times...
Or he enjoys us engaging in verbal and grammatical jugglery all the time?
Salaam,
This is not funny
It's not Allah who can't express his words but you are the one who is blind and deaf because you choose to be blind and deaf.
Please reconsider your words about Allah.From your posts I can only see that you post youtube films and articles by others.
Did you ever tried to listen to The Quran so that you can learn the characters of The Book so that you can study yourself the language of The Quran or do you want others to do the work for you and then complain that Allah can't express Himself? -
Conflicts with reason and logic or conflict with the realities of life? I always believed that doubts come from the experinces of life and not the verses of the Quran. The Quran may state that God is merciful, but if you are expriencing trauma and pain its hard to comprehend that. It might state that God is fully aware of what we do and He supports the rigteous.Tthat is hard to believe when you are down and oppressed.Iit may say the disbelievers will never prosper but that is hard to understand when your boss is one like that and has the upper hand over you. It may state etc, etc, etc.
A very wise post indeed.
In this thread we see a very marked & common outcome of Sunni-ism's overruling of Sufi-ism. It's amazing how a struggle from back then is still sending shockwaves here and now. What do I mean by that? Had sufism been the dominant sect then most people would have approached God experientally rather than trying to logically piece together things. The problem with the logical approach is that incomplete information but perfect logic leads to grievously harmful conclusions as demonstrated in this thread.
We can never really know enough to say much. Had the OP and others approached their 'islam' from the meditative side they may have perhaps noticed God within themselves. From that side it is much easier to then fill in the logical aspects remaining aware of the incompleteness of one's knowledge and all the while the experiential evidence of God's presence alone is enough to keep doubt from gripping so hard it breaks the rope that God extends to a soul. How strange seeing people deny something that I could not dispute if I tried purely because my experience alone could not lie to me, to go against that would be to deny that which I am and to do that would be like closing my eyes and pretending I had never seen.
Or by analogy, to catch a glimpse of the finished puzzle thusly knowing that the pieces I have will fit, merely a matter of when.
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Salaam,
This is not funny
It's not Allah who can't express his words but you are the one who is blind and deaf because you choose to be blind and deaf.
Please reconsider your words about Allah.From your posts I can only see that you post youtube films and articles by others.
Did you ever tried to listen to The Quran so that you can learn the characters of The Book so that you can study yourself the language of The Quran or do you want others to do the work for you and then complain that Allah can't express Himself?I might ask you to apologize to me for the insult of saying I am blind and deaf! I expect fair play and good manners even from Muslims!
I do not allow you to judge my studies of the Quran by what I post!
And, being proficient in several languages, I've read the Quran many, many times, and listened to chanting of it in Arabic, too.If I was not born Arab-speaking, does it mean that god cannot talk to me "directly"?
Besides, what are you trying to prove?
Who are you trying to convince to what?
Does Quran need your defense? Does God?The only thing I do agree with you is that it is a serous matter!
Peace
peace -
I might ask you to apologize to me for the insult of saying I am blind and deaf! I expect fair play and good manners even from Muslims!
I do not allow you to judge my studies of the Quran by what I post!
And, being proficient in several languages, I've read the Quran many, many times, and listened to chanting of it in Arabic, too.If I was not born Arab-speaking, does it mean that god cannot talk to me "directly"?
Besides, what are you trying to prove?
Who are you trying to convince to what?
Does Quran need your defense? Does God?The only thing I do agree with you is that it is a serous matter!
Peace
peaceThan what are you doing in a Quranist forum? If you don't believe in the Quran and are not interested in it than why are you here? I don't understand people coming here telling us they lost faith and stuff. Do you want us to convince you otherwise? Or do you expect that maybe you can convince some here to do the same you did? I am not sure what are you gaining here if not to some how provoke people.
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Than what are you doing in a Quranist forum? If you don't believe in the Quran and are not interested in it than why are you here? I don't understand people coming here telling us they lost faith and stuff. Do you want us to convince you otherwise? Or do you expect that maybe you can convince some here to do the same you did? I am not sure what are you gaining here if not to some how provoke people.
Why are you angry ? You're starting to act as the religious sunnis when they find out that someone has left their religion. Perhaps you are of the purified, and never felt that you were losing belief in your present spirituality, even though, let the others doubt, for it is part of the path. They are bringing up their concerns and doubts, you should, instead of posting such, answer and explain all of their questions if you can.
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Than what are you doing in a Quranist forum? If you don't believe in the Quran and are not interested in it than why are you here? I don't understand people coming here telling us they lost faith and stuff. Do you want us to convince you otherwise? Or do you expect that maybe you can convince some here to do the same you did? I am not sure what are you gaining here if not to some how provoke people.
Prior experience with such suggests it may be for venting (disillusionment, anger, disappointment etc) , for support (who else is with me?), for an audience/attention while making an announcement (hear ye all)...or a mixture. Very rarely is it that such involves a change of heart (yet again) back to more familiar roads so to say or an acknowledgement of errors/lack of information etc at the time. Usually people don't (shouldn't) make such decisions on the spur of the moment, and it takes time and willingness to keep searching/analysing during which it is possible that they may realise what/where they went wrong and things fall into place and/or find a different road that may or not be better for them etc. I agree however that after a round of the usual, it's best to part ways. Some don't
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Salaam,
Thanks for sharing these "contraditions" and "problems" in The Quran.
I am not sure if you can read arabic characters, if you can then please read the verses again. Half of the things you mentioned is simply because of bad translations. Allah uses precise words, while in translations you can have 10 different translations for 1 arabic word or they translate 10 different arabic words in 1 way.
The other half of the problem is that you use hadiths and other sources besides The Quran to understand The Quran. I know you don't do this on purpose as this still effects all of us in some way without noticing it even when we claim that we are Quran alone.Please try to take a fresh look on it. Just start over again but this time with a clear mind, thus without hadith understandings and other sources.
If you can't read the arabic characters and you are to lazy to to learn the arabic letters then a transliteration is more then enough.Salaam,
BenderWHAT?!
When did I ever say I use the sunnah or hadith to understand the Qur'an?! I've always been an outright opponent of hadith literature and the idolatry of the Sunnah. Why else do you think I've been a member of this for years? What an insane and inaccurate assumption about me...
Also quite funny because I was enamored by Sufi literature as a convert and love all of the Sufi concepts of universalism, oneness with God, dhikr, etc.
Next, I don't speak Arabic! You're calling me lazy because I wasn't born in an Arabic speaking country?! What an ignorant insult. You're exercising the same air of Arabic superiority that the Sunnis practice. First off, it makes no sense for me to read a transliteration (which I have) because I don't understand the words. Second, you're telling me that God only wants his revelation for all mankind over all time periods to be understood by 7th century Arabs! Even those who speak Arabic likely don't fully grasp the full meanings of the classical Arabic used in the Qur'an so I guess we should all give up on salvation according to you.
Apparently the Creator of the entire universe for some reason or another, either could not or would not create a book that would translate clearly and concisely no matter which language you speak. Only 17% of the 3 billion Muslims on this planet speak Arabic as a native language.
Also I highly doubt that Arabic speakers all understand EVERY single word of Al-Qur'an in the same exact way even though they all speak the language because when they mentally internalize it likely takes a slightly different meaning to all of them.
You are using the typical Sunni arguments for someone who doesn't understand Al-Qur'an in the same exact way they expect.
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You don't understand Arabic so you're not qualified to understand, question, or criticize.
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You don't read it in the proper context.
As for how my contradictions were wrong, maybe there were. I can only read and try to understand and use my human reason. Logically many of the premises of the Abrahamic faiths in general has lost a lot of color and substance to me however. I wish for Islam to be true and I embraced it fully so why would God make me a disbeliever? Do you not acknowledge that it is only through His will that I can believe?
A very wise post indeed.
In this thread we see a very marked & common outcome of Sunni-ism's overruling of Sufi-ism. It's amazing how a struggle from back then is still sending shockwaves here and now. What do I mean by that? Had sufism been the dominant sect then most people would have approached God experientally rather than trying to logically piece together things. The problem with the logical approach is that incomplete information but perfect logic leads to grievously harmful conclusions as demonstrated in this thread.
We can never really know enough to say much. Had the OP and others approached their 'islam' from the meditative side they may have perhaps noticed God within themselves. From that side it is much easier to then fill in the logical aspects remaining aware of the incompleteness of one's knowledge and all the while the experiential evidence of God's presence alone is enough to keep doubt from gripping so hard it breaks the rope that God extends to a soul. How strange seeing people deny something that I could not dispute if I tried purely because my experience alone could not lie to me, to go against that would be to deny that which I am and to do that would be like closing my eyes and pretending I had never seen.
Or by analogy, to catch a glimpse of the finished puzzle thusly knowing that the pieces I have will fit, merely a matter of when.
This is pure foolishness. I was more a student of Sufi philosophy than any other school of thought. I've never once been a Sunni and have always outright rejected them.
I "experienced God" many times and on many different levels. So much so that if you would have asked me 2 months ago how real God was not only would I say that God is real, I would say he is in fact more real than me standing before you!
But I have to be reasonable and open in accepting that MAYBE I'm creating the experience of God in my mind and so I decided to take a step back from just my "feelings" and "experience" and be objective, logical, and reasonable in whether or not my beliefs were VALID.
If Islam is not the enemy of logic and reason, and it invites questioning then this type of experiment should not be a problem. But apparently it was a problem for me because I have not recovered from my doubt.
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Prior experience with such suggests it may be for venting (disillusionment, anger, disappointment etc) , for support (who else is with me?), for an audience/attention while making an announcement (hear ye all)...or a mixture. Very rarely is it that such involves a change of heart (yet again) back to more familiar roads so to say or an acknowledgement of errors/lack of information etc at the time. Usually people don't (shouldn't) make such decisions on the spur of the moment, and it takes time and willingness to keep searching/analysing during which it is possible that they may realise what/where they went wrong and things fall into place and/or find a different road that may or not be better for them etc. I agree however that after a round of the usual, it's best to part ways. Some don't
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292 calculate/figure the mankind that they?ll be left lest/that they say we believe and they not be tested -
My admiration for you @Faithful-Jinn only increases after each of your posts and answers to members!
I was also very much imbedded in Sufism, and quite eagerly and seriously though, but realized that a subjective hippie "oceanic" feeling of "god inside" is not enough, except for narcissistic ego-trips of delusional people who take religion as a substitute for so many things.
Some answers and opinions on this thread from people without tolerance is just amazing...
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Why are you angry ? You're starting to act as the religious sunnis when they find out that someone has left their religion. Perhaps you are of the purified, and never felt that you were losing belief in your present spirituality, even though, let the others doubt, for it is part of the path. They are bringing up their concerns and doubts, you should, instead of posting such, answer and explain all of their questions if you can.
I am not angry. He can doubt all he wants. But what exactly is he doing here? And why should I answer their questions if they are not going to be interested. He obviously left the faith and decided to do so. What exactly he is doing in a Quranist forum beats me. We are told in the Quran to avoid people who are not interested. I still believe the goal here is to try to persuade us out of the faith or else why will he be here. If he wanted us to answer question he would have done it before not after he lost faith. I have seen this before. He will simply take the interpretation that will justify his decision. I hate wasting time and wasting other people's time. There are many atheist forums where he can have people who share his views. But what is he doing here? If I lost faith and decided to do so I will not want to debate those who believe in scriptures. What for? Its like people like that are bothered that others have faith and want to give them a hard time by arguing back and forth.
We shall see his intention.
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I am not angry. He can doubt all he wants. But what exactly is he doing here? And why should I answer their questions if they are not going to be interested. He obviously left the faith and decided to do so. What exactly he is doing in a Quranist forum beats me. We are told in the Quran to avoid people who are not interested. I still believe the goal here is to try to persuade us out of the faith or else why will he be here. If he wanted us to answer question he would have done it before not after he lost faith. I have seen this before. He will simply take the interpretation that will justify his decision. I hate wasting time and wasting other people's time. There are many atheist forums where he can have people who share his views. But what is he doing here? If I lost faith and decided to do so I will not want to debate those who believe in scriptures. What for? Its like people like that are bothered that others have faith and want to give them a hard time by arguing back and forth.
We shall see his intention.
I didn't know when I would lose my faith. It just happened 2 days ago. Should I have told myself not to stop believing until I checked in with the almighty Bigmo and my other compatriots here at free-minds? What a ridiculous and asinine statement to make. And for your information I made a topic about how I was becoming doubtful of the divinity of the Qur'an about 1-2 weeks ago on the Quranic divinity section so that makes your statement all the more ignorant.
I don't care what you believe I'm simply sharing my own thoughts and views with like minded people. I thought this forum was for everyone be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, agnostics, and atheists to discuss religious and theological issues concerning the Qur'an and God alone. Apparently I've been on the wrong forum for the past 2-3 years.
It seems you are the one who is being close minded and uninterested here. I want to debate because I practiced God alone Islam for years in my life so of course I would discuss my deconversion with other like minded people. Perhaps I was wrong or made a mistake and someone can provide me with evidence to change my mind or perhaps my reasoning is valid and I can help other people find truth.
The way you're stating your position it seems you don't think anyone with conflicting views should be on this forum and you seem like an angry child who doesn't want to play with the other kids who don't follow his rules.
Judging by your reaction alone I would have to conclude that religion truly is an enemy to difficult questions, logical thought, critical thinking, and open discussion. I came here not to offend anyone or waste anyone's time but to share my own ideas and thoughts. Apparently you find some part of that offensive. I seek only knowledge and truth.
If you don't like wasting your time then leave my topic. I didn't force you to post here.
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God does say in the Koran (can't think of the verses) that there are those who will come to believe and then turn to disbelief like faithful-jinn.
Bigmo - let people denounce or announce. reading such posts may actually lead some to see and understand the Koran. it is one thing to read a verse in the koran and then it is another to actually witness. for me, it validates what God says as i read this thread about people believing and disbelieving.
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God does say in the Koran (can't think of the verses) that there are those who will come to believe and then turn to disbelief like faithful-jinn.
Bigmo - let people denounce or announce. reading such posts may actually lead some to see and understand the Koran. it is one thing to read a verse in the koran and then it is another to actually witness. for me, it validates what God says as i read this thread about people believing and disbelieving.
Correct. God does say that. Despite the Qur'an also establishing that God is in control of who believes and disbelieves and guides only whom He wills in the verses I cited earlier. I cannot go against the will of Allah according to the Qur'an yet Allah will punish every single human being whom He Himself has decreed should not believe in Him.
Nobody believes in Allah except by His will (10100). We are either destined for hell or destined for heaven and God is in control of this for it is all written in a book with Him. So if you believe it's only because Allah MADE you believe and if you disbelieve it is because Allah MADE you disbelieve yet one gets infinite reward and another gets infinite punishment.
Does that make any sense?
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Despite how much I want to believe that the Qur'an and Islam are true, I must be honest with myself.
Why do you want to believe in labels that are inherently untrue? There is no such meaningless things as Qur'an and Islam to begin with. Maybe when you learn their simple common meaning and you are able to do the simple task of translating them then you can be really honest with yourself.
Peace,
Ayman
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Why do you want to believe in labels that are inherently untrue? There is no such meaningless things as Qur'an and Islam to begin with. Maybe when you learn their simple common meaning and you are able to do the simple task of translating them then you can be really honest with yourself.
Peace,
Ayman
More appeals to translation. I know the concept of Islam. All things animate and inanimate from the clouds to the animal kingdom to mankind submits to the Creator, willingly or unwillingly.
That's just a nice idea though. In reality there is nothing to submit to because the basis for this idea is that the Qur'an tells me this and the only reason to listen to the Qur'an is its claim to be the direct word of God.
Once it is understood though that the Qur'an is not in fact the word of God, then I have no reason to believe in submission or pleasing some external universal force that reads my thoughts, feels my emotions, listens to me and watches me 24/7 so He can judge me when I die.
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Peace Faithful-Jinn.
What are you trying to run away from? And where are you escaping to?
Wishful thinking. Will your problems be solved?
My last reply to " nevasheva" in the topic " Was Rashad Khalifa wrong" also applies here.
Please reflect.
Peace. -
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
What are you trying to run away from? And where are you escaping to?
Wishful thinking. Will your problems be solved?
My last reply to " nevasheva" in the topic " Was Rashad Khalifa wrong" also applies here.
Please reflect.
Peace.Your post doesn't really say much of anything about anything to be honest but I'll respond to your sentences with question marks.
I'm running from nothing and I'm not escaping to anything.
What problems?
I'm not searching the other topic for your statements just post them here.
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Faithfull Jin, I understand your difficulty with understanding what it does it mean to have your fate sealed, but still be condemned to it....I am trying to understand the philosophy of that as well....
But....I still have this feeling...that God is talking and knows how we react kinda thing...I don't know what I am trying to say...I mean...I think an ingredient of submitting to God...is to understand that if God wants to reject your hard work, it should be still acceptable to you...because he is your creator your master...according to the Qur'an, and I think this theme is in the bible too, depending on which testament, or who you are talking to I guess....is that God's mercy is the main element that we are depending on. So he is saying that and he knows that if you are not willing to accept that then you are not a submitter. You think you can tell God what to do.
And honestly I think God is the entity that can do whatever he pleases, so I don't get the 'that doesn't sound like a just and merciful God' argument.
However the idea of that fate is sealed, I can't really see that in the Qur'an yet but it is out there, but I am having difficulty understanding on what am I supposed to be doing with that idea...if I am meant to be a doctor, and its already written, it doesn't matter what I do...I can just sit home and say...what God wills will happen and play videogames, I do not need to do anything kinda thing...that is another problem I had with R.K his whole session about how everything is in God's controll, it won't happen because you will/do anything....I am not sure...what...is the full scope on that yet my self.
because I don't believe that justice or mercy, is something that humans can define easily. Justice might be no you don't deserve that liver, cause you drank alcohol and ruined it, you don't deserve it, but that's not how people would like medicine to be, they'd prefer that medicine treats you no matter what wrongs you do by your own choice. They'd say who do you think you are to tell me what I deserve, and what I do not. What is your problem if you have the cure to my problem, thats what its for. Why do you want to see me suffer!.
Morality is subjective in my world...I don't believe in humans abilities in deciding the perfect moral system...in fact religion calls to things that are....selfless....which...doesn't make sense...if we want to use logic for morality....Starting with something as hated as murder, it makes sense if I am worried about someone competing with me, or harming me...to just dispose of him....or oppress them...or make them think I am God. Which is not what Islam had...it had the no one is your God...you do not answer to anyone but me God, who is not here so we are all in the same boat...so why would...this be a lie with a certain motive...?
However I understand your frustration with arabic as I am an arabic speaker my self, and official arabic is even hard for arabs themselves...so...I understand also the feeling of why is the Qur'an so complicated to access then...but first of all...even if you know the language...doesn't mean you will read the Qur'an...like what you read...or...bother to invest time to reflect on the meaning of it. I think the strive for God is (I THINK) is the most difficult of all knowledge....and that it is a collective of so many things....even dare I say aside from the Qur'an its self.
Also on the subject of why is God being ambiguous in the Qur'an....in the Qur'an...again it could be just me...i read a lot of verses about God stating that I won't succumb to the 'prove it do something Magnificent' because whenever I do, you still disbelief and find cracks...which is...a habit I can see in my self even. Old habits die hard kinda thing, even health wise (sorry I have a medicine education), doctors, anyone who knows for a fact!!! that smoking causes cancer, doesn't stop him from smoking, from eating certain bad things. There is something about human nature that is very flawed, and the Qur'an speaks it out, rather than playing the 'humanism' is the best thing that is on earth.
I think Faithful-Jin you announced this, here...because you are frustrated your self about that decision, and maybe you want to be persuaded otherwise...to take your self out of your self, and hear why are you so wrong about it.
I can't say I can really help you with that....all I can say is....knowledge...is a very difficult thing to attain, regardless wither it is about God or not...so many people taint the truth...for as petty reasons as just not wanting to admit they don't know so they say something to fill their arrogance instead, to as vile of reasons as making money, and promoting power status. It is not the God element that is the problem..any department of knowledge has been abused and used in a bad way. Explosives were not invented to kill people kinda thing. I can only hope to God, that praying to not be misguided is what is enough to keep me on the right track...and not just following what the next person claims God says...