I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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Thank you @savage_carrot!
I appreciate very much your sincerity and your confession
I might re-evaluate Mr Khalifa's ideas and message again, because I consider them the best acceptable stand for the relationship with God in the computer age.
God is running everything sun
Good to know this, I personally think Dr Rashad's idea is the most outstanding, and miracle of 19 is really shining. Some people try to disregard this miracle, but so far none convince me yet, because just by simple counting in Quran manually, I actually find that this is true.
And indeed this 19 miracle is THE foundation that brought Dr Rashad to conclusion that we must follow Quran alone, his idea spread and start the Quran alone trend in the world.
Ironically, now the people who quickly reject miracle 19 without deeper research, was actually brought to Quran alone by the miracle of 19 itself.
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If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses?which constitute the essence of the scripture?as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this?all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
The Qur'an answers your own questions. It seems as if you've become so content in your disbelieve that nothing can even persuade you a little now.
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Good to know this, I personally think Dr Rashad's idea is the most outstanding, and miracle of 19 is really shining. Some people try to disregard this miracle, but so far none convince me yet, because just by simple counting in Quran manually, I actually find that this is true.
And indeed this 19 miracle is THE foundation that brought Dr Rashad to conclusion that we must follow Quran alone, his idea spread and start the Quran alone trend in the world.
Ironically, now the people who quickly reject miracle 19 without deeper research, was actually brought to Quran alone by the miracle of 19 itself.
Thank you brother @donnyw, I agree with you.
I share your thoughts, but on the other side, people who dismissed Khalifa's work seem so convincing... Sometimes I wonder, to whom Mr Khalifa's work is so threatening?
All Dr. Khalifa's work and findings are outstanding in so many ways! Considerable significance for me is also the fact that he was a scientist and a modern, civilized westernized man, with a brilliant mind, and not some backward religious douchebag.
Even the fact that he was assassinated by Muslim fanatics adds to the puzzle.But you see, the Quran itself talks about the provocation of miracle 19, and I am still utterly confused, not knowing Arabic, because some people translate and interpret the Qur'an's warning about the 19 in totally opposite ways!!! brickwall
(I am talking about Surah 7430)One thing is for sure it is a test, as the whole Quran seems to be some kind of test...
I sometimes wish I was a perfectly blissful innocent, empty minded simple man, who was never contaminated with the idea of religion, god and phantasmagoria things...There is a passage in Talmud which says "For someone who things what is beneath, what is behind, what is below and what is above, it is better for him never to had been born."
Blessed are indeed those pure in heart and simple in nature.
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It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
God fully knows that messengers and scripture will be mocked-up, He let it happen!
The people who changed it and their followers are the best example of liars and disbelievers whom God intend to show us (the next generations).So Quran is not like some cult religion who guarantee all human to be saved by it and all those sweet polishing words full of promises. Instead Quran is a test, a filter that will separates the liars and the sincere.
Quran is not intended to be a beacon to save all humanity, instead it is designed to save few people only (righteous people), read 22.
So Quran is entirely a different concept of 'scripture' that you might think.
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God fully knows that messengers and scripture will be mocked-up, He let it happen!
The people who changed it and their followers are the best example of liars and disbelievers whom God intend to show us (the next generations).So Quran is not like some cult religion who guarantee all human to be saved by it and all those sweet polishing words full of promises. Instead Quran is a test, a filter that will separates the liars and the sincere.
Quran is not intended to be a beacon to save all humanity, instead it is designed to save few people only (righteous people), read 22.
So Quran is entirely a different concept of 'scripture' that you might think.
Thank you for these excellent words! (red coloring is mine)
Very good point! I agree!
Finally I see it clearly written, what I always somehow felt! That the Quran is for a few chosen ones ONLY!
Imam Al-Ghazali b 1058 (called Proof of Islam) quotes in his huge book (Revival of the Religion) that Muhammad said that Islam started with a few loners and will end with a few solitary true believers. )
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But you see, the Quran itself talks about the provocation of miracle 19, and I am still utterly confused, not knowing Arabic, because some people translate and interpret the Qur'an's warning about the 19 in totally opposite ways!!!
(I am talking about Surah 7430)Peace brother Godsubmitter,
What you said is also true for me, I tried to follow their logic (folks who interpret 7430 in opposite way), anyhow I just felt that the interpretation has some flaw on it. For example if 19 is simply the number of angels guarding hell, how it could make a difference than 19thousand or 19billions angels? God said the number is a test for disbeliever, so perhaps disbeliever will be convinced if the number of angels is 19trillions-zillions instead? ;D
Their interpretation just doesn't make sense to me. Because even any number of angels wont matter for disbeliever. So that is the exact reason why disbeliever will ask "What God means by this alegory" because they just dont understand why the number of angels matter. Opponent in this forum tend to mock this miracle of 19, they believe that God refer to 19 angels only. But inside their deepest heart they kept asking themselves... why 19 angels really matter? confused
Also 19 angels is supposed to strengthen our faith, how it can strengthen our faith? For example I dont find 18 angels or 20 angels will not strengthen my faith me but 19 angels miraculously will! What is the big difference between 18, 19 and 20 angels? This is something that the opponent of miracle 19 (the number itself not the angels) find very hard to answer.
- 19 angels - bring confusion, wondering, defy common sense.... why it really matters?
- 19 (as the number itself) - bring intelligent question, intriguing discovery, wonderful finding.
Sorry for the bold and font color, just dont want you to missed it D
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Finally I see it clearly written, what I always somehow felt! That the Quran is for a few chosen ones ONLY!
Glad that you see it as well brother, how can most people miss it? 22 It is the opening verse of the Quran after Al-fatihah!
22 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for the muttaqin.
It is NOT a guidance for all human... ;D
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God fully knows that messengers and scripture will be mocked-up, He let it happen!
The people who changed it and their followers are the best example of liars and disbelievers whom God intend to show us (the next generations).So Quran is not like some cult religion who guarantee all human to be saved by it and all those sweet polishing words full of promises. Instead Quran is a test, a filter that will separates the liars and the sincere.
Quran is not intended to be a beacon to save all humanity, instead it is designed to save few people only (righteous people), read 22.
So Quran is entirely a different concept of 'scripture' that you might think.
I disagree because if you take it as only a few people will take guidance/heed (meaning a minority out of a majority), it's entirely different from the quran being for mankind. So, I would correct it's for mankind but only some will understand it as guidance/heed it. It isn't only designed to save some people, only some people will choose to be saved by it. It's designed for mankind, not some people. Nothing can save everyone unless force is involved.
Finally I see it clearly written, what I always somehow felt! That the Quran is for a few chosen ones ONLY!
Imam Al-Ghazali b 1058 (called Proof of Islam) quotes in his huge book (Revival of the Religion) that Muhammad said that Islam started with a few loners and will end with a few solitary true believers. )
You're taking it the wrong way. I don't subscribe to the 19 stuff btw, either.
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Thank you @donnyw!
And thank you @savage_carrot for your involvement in this thread, I read many of your posts and respect very much your reasoning and thinking.
I am always willing to learn, the whole R. Khalifa's idea and message gave me peace, as the most coherent and outstanding compact modern theology for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In fact, thanks to his websites, I eventually accepted the Quran and Islam, which I would never done otherwise, due to appalling overall image traditional Islam has.
Now, could you please enlighten me about taking it wrongly?
You're taking it the wrong way. I don't subscribe to the 19 stuff btw, either.
Thank you
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Well yeah exactly. Confirming or denying entails having knowledge.
That's why I said I can do neither of those things.
exactly! you cannot confirm or deny existence of God. no one can. we are human beings. we are limited. you can never, ever understand some things and certainly not everything. questions that you will never get answered. do you even understand your own brain? how much do you really know about your brain and understand it? accept that you will never understand God. possibly understand God.
either we believe in God or don't or not be sure. you choose. you need to decide for yourself. now, when it comes to the koran - again do your search for the truth. is it word of God or not? can some of it be from God and some not being corrupted by men? why do you think some are truths and some not? what leads you to reject some and accept others? how do you decide ok this is from God and this one, man wrote it?
absolutely i have issues with somethings said in the koran and have wondered about it. when i read the verse about believing in some and not others. i said ok - either i believe in the entire thing or reject the whole thing. when i read verses saying that God knows things that i don't, the unknown. i said ok - why stress my brain cells as i will never know or comprehend, understand. and frankly, i really don't need to.
it is good enough for me to believe in God, the last day, and doing good deeds. living a moral life. keep life simple. now, do i really need the koran for that? no, i don't. i refer to the koran using it as a guidance in my life. hey, works for me.
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Thank you @donnyw!
And thank you @savage_carrot for your involvement in this thread, I read many of your posts and respect very much your reasoning and thinking.
I am always willing to learn, the whole R. Khalifa's idea and message gave me peace, as the most coherent and outstanding compact modern theology for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In fact, thanks to his websites, I eventually accepted the Quran and Islam, which I would never done otherwise, due to appalling overall image traditional Islam has.
Now, could you please enlighten me about taking it wrongly?
Thank you
Just explained it above, it's giving us the wrong idea that it's designed for only the righteous/reverent etc...they may come to it and understand/heed the message but the message is for humanity at large. Why humanity at large would choose not to heed/understand the quran is not in the design of the quran but in themselves. So, while one can say the quran would be understood/heeded/a source of guidance for the righteous, it's not the same thing as saying the quran is only designed for such/select few.
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I disagree because if you take it as only a few people will take guidance/heed (meaning a minority out of a majority), it's entirely different from the quran being for mankind. So, I would correct it's for mankind but only some will understand it as guidance/heed it. It isn't only designed to save some people, only some people will choose to be saved by it. It's designed for mankind, not some people. Nothing can save everyone unless force is involved.
You have some interesting point there. More or less we have similar view I think, but there are some differences I can see.
I dont see that Quran is intended to save everyone for sure, with or without major force, majority wont believe and still be unbelievers. This is a fact told in Quran. The only thing can change them if only God wish, but God decide to leave them their way, so this is not going to happen (again).
I said again, this is because from Quran we knew God actually has pardoned us all once before once due to His Mercy, all single human without exclusion has received His forgiveness before and given second chance now in this earth. And everyone of us had bear witness that no god beside God before we sent down to earth. So we can't say that we never been guided. Indeed all human has received some guidance before, every single of us no matter he is now believer or unbeliever or atheist, agnostic etc.
So Quran (and other previous scriptures) are another guidance sent to us but this time on earth, so God never leaves human without a guidance or a clue at all time. Anyhow this time the guidance must be seek, instead this time is a real test, which separating real believers and unbelievers. So God do not expect the majority to follow the guidance in Quran, instead God sent it as a test to see who the believers are. And God fully knows who they are even before all this started, we are going through living in earth here just because all need to go through a test which all recorded, and this record contain our final standing which will be bring to court on judgement day, so nobody can object anything anymore because there is record, but God knows the result of all these beforehand.
So, with this knowledge, majority of people will go to hell despite warning from scripture and all effort to change them, and in fact the opposite, those unbelievers are made as sample and lesson for those who wish to read/follow Quran. They are just condemned, instead God mocked them in Quran, they will never be guided because their own rejection, not because God doesn't provide guidance.
The God's grand plan in this earth is not to save humanity, something most people thought it is, indeed most human will be banished forever in hell as told by Quran. So the grand plan is just to filter out and collect prove (record) to be brought on judgement day for each individual stand, what is his final decision on God, whether still putting doubt on Him or repent and accept Him completely.
The final result of this earth living, is the minority of believers which God wish to get the result out of this grand plan.So my opinion about Quran, I can see Quran is guidance who can witnessed by all humanity, but it is a beacon only for the muttaqin, the real reason why this earth created in fist place.
That is how I see Quran position, correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace...
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I dont see that Quran is intended to save everyone for sure, with or without major force, majority wont believe and still be unbelievers. This is a fact told in Quran. The only thing can change them if only God wish, but God decide to leave them their way, so this is not going to happen (again).
The quran is a guide, people have to save themselves. The thing about God changing them is imo, starting from their desire/efforts to seek help/change. I'm not sure about with/without major force as in my view from the reading...there can be/is no force. All we have is free choice in various specific settings (our lives).So Quran (and other previous scriptures) are another guidance sent to us but this time on earth, so God never leaves human without a guidance or a clue at all time. Anyhow this time the guidance must be seek, instead this time is a real test, which separating real believers and unbelievers. So God do not expect the majority to follow the guidance in Quran, instead God sent it as a test to see who the believers are. And God fully knows who they are even before all this started, we are going through living in earth here just because all need to go through a test which all recorded, and this record contain our final standing which will be bring to court on judgement day, so nobody can object anything anymore because there is record, but God knows the result of all these beforehand.
I agree, I think that the test is for us to differentiate/grow/recognise truth etc.So, with this knowledge, majority of people will go to hell despite warning from scripture and all effort to change them, and in fact the opposite, those unbelievers are made as sample and lesson for those who wish to read/follow Quran. They are just condemned, instead God mocked them in Quran, they will never be guided because their own rejection, not because God doesn't provide guidance.
Where I might disagree is 'all effort to change them'. It's for us to change ourselves. I also don't think the unbelievers are made as sample/lesson for those who wish to follow the quran, we can take their example but they are made just like us with free choice. Because God knows, doesn't mean we do and since we don't...our test is in our choices etc. Some would ask why did God create the unbelievers if He knew, and my response to that would be how would you create a system of free choice and non-force in regards to intelligent beings with the capacities we have so that everyone is a believer? One would need to force compliance one way or the other. It's a great rogue A.I sci-fi scenario And it goes on and on with more questions about why and the purpose which obviously you haven't brought up so I'll stop.The God's grand plan in this earth is not to save humanity, something most people thought it is, indeed most human will be banished forever in hell as told by Quran. So the grand plan is just to filter out and collect prove (record) to be brought on judgement day for each individual stand, what is his final decision on God, whether still putting doubt on Him or repent and accept Him completely.
The final result of this earth living, is the minority of believers which God wish to get the result out of this grand plan.
I would broadly agree that the purpose is not to save humanity. The purpose is for humanity to save itself. The why of it is interesting too. Lots of great discussions there.So my opinion about Quran, I can see Quran is guidance who can witnessed by all humanity, but it is a beacon only for the muttaqin, the real reason why this earth created in fist place.
That is how I see Quran position, correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace...
It's for humanity to take heed, but only the muttaqin will take heed. Two different thingsgood discussion, haven't revisited this topic in quite a while. peace.
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I sincerely and without any sarcasm in my tone hope that you find mental peace with the decision you have made. Overall I share BigMo's sentiments in this thread, I personally don't even care about people who choose not to believe, it is their business, nor do I care to entertain or ask about why they disbelieve but like I said initially I sincerely hope you find mental peace with the decision you have made.
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Again I have the impression that the main theme of this thread that @Faithful Jinn posed so well in the beginning, is not grasped.
It is whether the Quran is from God, as a manual for men how to live, the best instruction manual with laws, being from God, since God created men and knows exactly what it is all about, or it is not?
And, if it is direct word from God, and a message for all times and all humanity, how do we know it is so?
I am not sure about the answer to your last question but I will say we don't, we just either believe it is or we don't. And I choose to believe it is.
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As some of you may know I've been on the fence about whether or Islam is true or not.
My faith has seemed empty lately and at one point I even denounced the divinity of the Qur'an.
The more I look at the entire premise of the Abrahamic God the more ridiculous everything seems. Even the idea of hell seems almost absurd now. I used to love the idea that deniers of the Oneness of God would be tortured in the afterlife for their arrogance. Now not only does it seem absurd, but I feel arrogant for holding my prior beliefs.
The truth is it's far easier for me to believe in a God than not to. I personally don't really want to live in a world with no God. My favorite idea about God is that He is Absolute Justice. A world without true Justice just doesn't seem right to me at all. But now I just can't approach my faith with the same fervor.
I decided to try to shake my blasphemous thoughts and started doing salat again and reading the Qur'an. At the end of my salat I prayed to God for a revelation or for Him to reveal Himself to me yesterday afternoon. I prayed earnestly for Him to please reveal Himself or show me a sign and I would remain His humble servant.
Last night when I was pondering on the verses of the Qur'an, I thought about the universe and the big bang. About a singularity "exploding" to form the universe and how the universe expands. I envisioned a cosmic explosion and all the matter and energy spreading out into galaxies, nebulas, stars, etc.
I then thought about Judgment Day and the afterlife. I personally believe(d) that hell if it does exist, is only temporary. The Qur'an actually supports this interpretation. Anyway I imagine that in the afterlife we will all return to God. I envisioned God, AS that singularity that started the universe and in the afterlife every single human soul that was a part of God in the beginning would return to Him in the end. Those farthest from God would be in hell and those closest to Him would be in heaven. Eventually however everyone would attain some sort of nearness to Him and eventually become One.
I envisioned every soul as a piece of divine energy that was part of God and I saw the End of Time. It was the opposite of the big bang. I saw every single soul moving through space as a piece of celestial energy returning toward the Creator to once again become a singularity and return to Oneness.
When this happened it had been in the evening about 5 hours after I did my salat and I was in awe. I thanked God for revealing to me a piece of His divine plan and for answering my doubts. I knew He had answered my supplications for revelation and that He wouldn't let His servant fall into doubt and disbelief. I was amazed at how quickly He had answered my doubts and I felt rejuvenated. I was sure I had received revelation from the Divine.
But when I woke up this morning I asked was that really divine revelation or a product of my own mind? Can I trust my own mind to confirm the existence of God? When I first converted I held subjective experience in high regard. I didn't care about proof or logic I only cared about feelings. That ignorance, willful or not, is now gone and I can't believe with the same fervor I used to.
I thought I received revelation from God yesterday because God cared if I kept my faith or not and was making sure I still believed. I thought my prayer had promptly and decisively been answered and a few months ago this would have undeniably satisfied me.
But now that nagging skepticism just WON'T go away! It simply won't leave me and allow me to practice Islam in peace! Ramadan is in 3 days. I was excited for Ramadan this year but now I don't even know if I want to do it anymore.
I just don't know anymore!
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But now that nagging skepticism just WON'T go away! It simply won't leave me and allow me to practice Islam in peace! Ramadan is in 3 days. I was excited for Ramadan this year but now I don't even know if I want to do it anymore.
I just don't know anymore!
Brother.. it seems you are in the right direction but you just dont realize it, keep searching and never give up brother, God wants to see how hard your effort is and how sincere you are, eventually if you keep your searching Allah might help you shed the light, insyaAllah.
Many people at a time been in the same situation like you, I was there too, so I know.
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Hello @Faithful Jinn, here is an interesting and amusing lecture in which some of your ideas from your last post, and some of your new conclusions are developed. It is about oneness of God and our relationship with monotheism, and how do we fully develop our potentials.
If you have time watch it till the end.
Equally I recommend it to others as well, since it's both funny and inspiring sun
http//videos.shalomtv.com/video/joy-judaism-rabbi-david-aaron-dec-15-2007
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Can I trust my own mind to confirm the existence of God?
I was excited for Ramadan this year but now I don't even know if I want to do it anymore.
good luck with confirming the existence of God. when you do, please do come back from the dead and let us know....
don't know why everyone makes a big deal about ramadan. if you don't go without food/water from sunrise to sunset - what's the big deal? and is that what ramadan is all about in the first place?
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It's about submission, reflection, prayer, and purity as well. While Islam has many rituals, the rituals symbolize certain ideals.
Fasting is something all the prophets have done. The Qur'an confirms that Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad all fasted for 40 days at some point if I recall correctly.