I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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we can argue, debate, discuss, go in circles. no one has died and come back to tell us for sure there is or is not a God, life hereafter and that the Koran is word of God and not innovation of men. fact is no one of know for certain about the 'Truth'. it is what you believe.
if in fact the words of the koran are from God - that is the Truth then Faithful-jinn is wrong. if in fact the words of the Koran are not from God then i am wrong. we will surely all find out for a fact not here or in our life time but after we die. the "Truth" whatever it is stands on its own irrespective of anyone's views/beliefs. so either you believe it to be true or you don't or you are on the fence.
so there are those who will believe in the Koran as from God and then there are those who will not. i believe in the koran and faithful-jinn doesn't. i guess we will just have to wait till the next life to see who is right and who is not. we will all find out what we disagreed on, were at variance with and the Truth.
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we can argue, debate, discuss, go in circles. no one has died and come back to tell us for sure there is or is not a God, life hereafter and that the Koran is word of God and not innovation of men. fact is no one of know for certain about the 'Truth'. it is what you believe.
if in fact the words of the koran are from God - that is the Truth then Faithful-jinn is wrong. if in fact the words of the Koran are not from God then i am wrong. we will surely all find out for a fact not here or in our life time but after we die. the "Truth" whatever it is stands on its own irrespective of anyone's views/beliefs. so either you believe it to be true or you don't or you are on the fence.
so there are those who will believe in the Koran as from God and then there are those who will not. i believe in the koran and faithful-jinn doesn't. i guess we will just have to wait till the next life to see who is right and who is not. we will all find out what we disagreed on, were at variance with and the Truth.
But the Qur'an itself acknowledges that either it is not 100% the Truth or that having 100% Truth is not necessary for salvation. Belief in God and good deeds are enough for paradise and you don't need Qur'an. This is because the Qur'an says Christians, Sabians, and Jews will enter paradise if they believe and do good deeds.
I doubt the divinity of the Qur'an but I'm not against the idea of God. I'm just not sure if the idea of God depicted in the Abrahamic faiths is true.
The reason I now am skeptical of this is that, after an objective view of this, I literally have zero reason to believe that these holy books are true. Some people here are saying that one doesn't need Qur'an or holy books which I would agree with.
What they're ignoring though is the fact that these holy books are the BASIS for the belief system or way of life which people practice. Let's forget about Abraham and the other prophets for a moment and talk about us people today. God has not sent us any prophets and He has not spoken to us directly. We rely on these thousand year old books to tell us everything we now about God. Without these holy books people would have NO REASON to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, sin, judgment, etc.
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Does the Qur'an actually say that it is the direct literal word of God? I recall verses saying it is the inspired word of God but that may have just been those translations.
Certainly i can admit there are verses of the Qur'an which cast doubt, but they can be easily explained, for example, a verse often used for criticism is the one which says the sun wont overtake the moon, which implies the sun and moon orbit the earth, how ever, it doesn't directly say that, plus, considering the Qur'an is aimed at all humans for all time, it makes perfect sense to tell people the sun wont over take the moon, from a perspective on earth. You have to consider that it's designed to be understandable to everyone.
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But the Qur'an itself acknowledges that either it is not 100% the Truth or that having 100% Truth is not necessary for salvation. Belief in God and good deeds are enough for paradise and you don't need Qur'an. This is because the Qur'an says Christians, Sabians, and Jews will enter paradise if they believe and do good deeds.
ok if you don't believe that the Koran is the truth then you can't really talk about the contents of the koran. so you have rejected the koran which means you have rejected what the quran says about nazreans (not christians who believe jesus is son of God), sabians, jews, or whoever does good deeds will enter paradise. so, this verse is not the truth then.
like i said what lead you to reject the koran is what lead me towards it. men surely would not have said any other community would enter paradise. ask an average mainstream muslim for example, s/he will tell you that if you don't pray, fast, wear a hijab, following hadiths (their system of belief) then you are going to hell. each group will tell you that you have to belong to their group for salvation. if the koran was written by men hundreds of years ago, don't you think it would be more like hadiths claiming that hell will be filled up with women? or that only arabs will go to heaven or muslims or the elite or whatever? well, just think about it for a moment. think about human nature and behavior. given human nature, you really think group of arab men especially would have said... you can be a jew and go to heaven if you do good deeds.
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But the Qur'an itself acknowledges that either it is not 100% the Truth or that having 100% Truth is not necessary for salvation. Belief in God and good deeds are enough for paradise and you don't need Qur'an. This is because the Qur'an says Christians, Sabians, and Jews will enter paradise if they believe and do good deeds.
So why are you so hung up on the book?
You said yourself that you have experienced God. You said that parts of the Koran move you. What does that tell you? It says you would like a god to be there to provide comfort and provide a great afterlife as reward for a life you lived in good faith and adhering to prescribed practises.
Yet you doubt the details. Be practical. Draw the spiritual guidelines you need and consolidate what is left with what you are prepared to accept. I maintain it is more important to be a good person and set a good example for others than following dogmatic rituals to a T.
A merciful god should appreciate that.
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What they're ignoring though is the fact that these holy books are the BASIS for the belief system or way of life which people practice. Let's forget about Abraham and the other prophets for a moment and talk about us people today. God has not sent us any prophets and He has not spoken to us directly. We rely on these thousand year old books to tell us everything we now about God. Without these holy books people would have NO REASON to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, sin, judgment, etc.
adam and eve believed in God. so the concept of God existed well before torah, bible and koran. right? now would i have a reason to believe in God if it were not for these holy books. yes. absolutely i have reasons to believe in God, heaven and hell. heck, i'd be the most disappointed soul if there was no heaven or hell. sometimes i think the only reason why i believe in God and life hereafter is because i want to see justice. hard for me to believe that people can get away with things. oh yes, personally i have a reason to believe in God and the life hereafter.
i have to disagree with you in saying that the koran is the basis of belief system or way of life which people practice. i'd say hadiths and culture/traditions are what people practice.
for me koran written down hundreds of years ago explains things and is a source of guidance/healing in my life. works for me.
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adam and eve believed in God. so the concept of God existed well before torah, bible and koran. right? now would i have a reason to believe in God if it were not for these holy books. yes. absolutely i have reasons to believe in God, heaven and hell. heck, i'd be the most disappointed soul if there was no heaven or hell. sometimes i think the only reason why i believe in God and life hereafter is because i want to see justice. hard for me to believe that people can get away with things. oh yes, personally i have a reason to believe in God and the life hereafter.
i have to disagree with you in saying that the koran is the basis of belief system or way of life which people practice. i'd say hadiths and culture/traditions are what people practice.
for me koran written down hundreds of years ago explains things and is a source of guidance/healing in my life. works for me.
If you were born in a world where nobody practiced religion and religious dogma didn't exist why would you ever believe in heaven, hell, or judgment? What would make you come to that conclusion without some sort of precedent for your beliefs?
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ok if you don't believe that the Koran is the truth then you can't really talk about the contents of the koran.
Yes I can.
so you have rejected the koran which means you have rejected what the quran says about nazreans (not christians who believe jesus is son of God), sabians, jews, or whoever does good deeds will enter paradise. so, this verse is not the truth then.
like i said what lead you to reject the koran is what lead me towards it. men surely would not have said any other community would enter paradise.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
ask an average mainstream muslim for example, s/he will tell you that if you don't pray, fast, wear a hijab, following hadiths (their system of belief) then you are going to hell. each group will tell you that you have to belong to their group for salvation. if the koran was written by men hundreds of years ago, don't you think it would be more like hadiths claiming that hell will be filled up with women? or that only arabs will go to heaven or muslims or the elite or whatever? well, just think about it for a moment. think about human nature and behavior. given human nature, you really think group of arab men especially would have said... you can be a jew and go to heaven if you do good deeds.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
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Yes I can.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
bravo
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Yes I can.
Why not? It makes perfect sense for Muhammad to say the Jewish and Christian communities would also enter paradise especially when he had to seek aid from the Medina Jews.
Yes. I really do think a group of Arab men would say that. Just because the hadith are stupid doesn't make the Qur'an holy.
if you reject the koran as the truth then it sure doesn't make sense to question verses in the koran as according to you, they are all crap, false, not logical, and so on. why would you talk about any verses in the koran questioning it when you have rejected it? unless of course you are now having doubts about your rejection. hmmm....
so now you seem to know muhammed quite well and his intentions. have you met him, talked to him? hey, i am just talking your own language here. so what you are saying is that muhammed had a self serving agenda and so per your logic and reasoning, he would have said it for gain but how about the christians, the sabians, and the other folks?
ok faithful-jinn, so we have this koran that you say is not word of God. that means they are the words of men or do you believe that aliens from another planet wrote them? so who wrote the koran? muhammed only? bunch of arab guys and who do you suppose these arab guys were? and what agenda do you suppose they had?
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if you reject the koran as the truth then it sure doesn't make sense to question verses in the koran as according to you, they are all crap, false, not logical, and so on. why would you talk about any verses in the koran questioning it when you have rejected it? unless of course you are now having doubts about your rejection. hmmm....
Don't be childish. Obviously for the sake of argument I'm assuming the Qur'an is true. Are you suggesting only Muslims should ever talk about or comment on the Qur'an or Islam?
so now you seem to know muhammed quite well and his intentions. have you met him, talked to him? hey, i am just talking your own language here. so what you are saying is that muhammed had a self serving agenda and so per your logic and reasoning, he would have said it for gain but how about the christians, the sabians, and the other folks?
I'm not saying I know his intentions. I'm presenting a fact of history that while the Qur'an was being revealed and that when Muhammad fled to Medina, he formed an alliance with the Medina Jews. This is a fact of history that has nothing to do with theology, religion, or faith.
ok faithful-jinn, so we have this koran that you say is not word of God. that means they are the words of men or do you believe that aliens from another planet wrote them? so who wrote the koran? muhammed only? bunch of arab guys and who do you suppose these arab guys were? and what agenda do you suppose they had?
I'm not claiming to know anything. I'm simply saying I have no valid reason to believe the Qur'an comes from God and that I have reasons to be skeptical of its alleged divine origin.
Believing the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so is not a valid reason.
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Don't be childish. Obviously for the sake of argument I'm assuming the Qur'an is true. Are you suggesting only Muslims should ever talk about or comment on the Qur'an or Islam?
No you don't have to be a muslim but your position is that Quran is not true. You cannot make the assumption that the Koran is true when your position is that it is not. By the way, I'll just ignore your comment about my maturity level.
I'm not saying I know his intentions. I'm presenting a fact of history that while the Qur'an was being revealed and that when Muhammad fled to Medina, he formed an alliance with the Medina Jews. This is a fact of history that has nothing to do with theology, religion, or faith.
....but wait a minute. your position is that the koran is not from God. but now you are saying that it is a fact of history that the Quran was revealed? what are you saying now that Koran was revealed (from God) is a historical fact? hmmm......
Believing the Qur'an is from God because the Qur'an says so is not a valid reason.
you are right about that. so you have this koran with you that you don't believe is from God. Surely, you have thought about then who wrote it, when and why? first of all what made you believe in the first place that it was from God?
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If you were born in a world where nobody practiced religion and religious dogma didn't exist why would you ever believe in heaven, hell, or judgment? What would make you come to that conclusion without some sort of precedent for your beliefs?
I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!
I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.
So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.
God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.
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No you don't have to be a muslim but your position is that Quran is not true. You cannot make the assumption that the Koran is true when your position is that it is not. By the way, I'll just ignore your comment about my maturity level.
Yes I can. What you're saying is absolutely ridiculous. What you're saying is that people of different beliefs SHOULD NEVER discuss or debate theology with each because side A doesn't believe something from side B is true. I have to question your maturity level when you say something so nonsensical.
....but wait a minute. your position is that the koran is not from God. but now you are saying that it is a fact of history that the Quran was revealed? what are you saying now that Koran was revealed (from God) is a historical fact? hmmm......
More childishness.
you are right about that. so you have this koran with you that you don't believe is from God. Surely, you have thought about then who wrote it, when and why? first of all what made you believe in the first place that it was from God?
I don't know. The difference between me and you is I claim not to know and you claim to know it is from God.
What made me believe in the first place is the spiritual truths I saw from the Qur'an in my own life. I thought it was from God because I thought it was all true and that I was experiencing God in my life.
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I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!
I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.
So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.
God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.
Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?
I seriously doubt that.
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Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?
I seriously doubt that.
Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.
He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around 6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 1130 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.
He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).
You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!
I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.
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Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.
He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around 6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 1130 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.
He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).
You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!
I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.
Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.
And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...
Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!
Cam we stick to the theme, please?
Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?
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Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.
And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...
Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!
Cam we stick to the theme, please?
Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?
Is that the theme? In either case, if we take 4153...we can recognise God's signs objectively, the quran being one of them. The quran being a message to mankind (1452) and thus universal insofar as humanity goes. Not sure what objectively thru the scripture implies.
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We have inspired (awaynā you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired (waiya) to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
Then we inspired (awaynā you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
This is the Rashad Khalifa translation, he uses the word Inspired, many other translations use inspired and some also use revealed.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/163/default.htmI don't know Arabic that well, so i can't translate the word, but in English there is quite a big difference between Inspired and revealed, the revealed word of God would be Gods literal word, whereas the inspired word of God would be Gods word through a prophets way of speaking and perspective. So there is a big difference, I'm curious to know which is an accurate translation.
If it is inspired, then it would surely explain what seems to be scientific errors, as it would be from Muhammads perspective.
Just food for thought.