I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

[Faithful-Jinn]

no where did i say what you allege. where did i say that you are 'sinful fool with weak faith?" by the way, i don't 'blame' myself if something doesn't make sense. i chose to believe that the koran is the word of God free of doubt and contradictions. so if i find contradictions then it means the koran is faulty or i that i am. i chose to believe that the koran is not faulty but i am. and you made the chose that the koran is faulty. you make your choices and i make mine. i have my beliefs and you have yours. if you think the koran is innovation of men and illogical then what you are doing is right - don't believe in it. believe in whatever it is that you want to believe in. i don't have a problem with whatever you believe.

what you are doing now is not discussion. you are now attacking and putting me down by stating that i am not open minded. i am deluded and seduced. so what is your point faithful-jinn and what is it that you are trying to prove? what possibilities or ideas are you trying to discuss?

according to you, i am illogical, deluded, seduced. how is that a discussion of ideas or possibilities? you have obviously come to reject the koran as god's word. you have clearly stated the issues you have with the koran. you have made it clear of what you think of people like me who chose to believe in God's scriptures.

so again what is your point now? why do you expect us to explain to you of what and why we believe in the Koran? i can ask the same question that you ask who do you think you are? that we need to explain to you. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish and expecting in this forum, faithful-jinn?

I'm explaining my deconversion and how I came to my conclusions. It's clear that nothing can be gained in a discussion between opposing positions who both think they're correct. Perhaps Bigmo was correct that this is an exercise in futility.

You did allege something about being deceived by shaitan however and the idea that the fault is never with the scripture or the belief system but your own self. So until you can find some new way to translate the meaning of a word, or rationalize an idea, or find a new context to read something, or somehow understand the verse in a different way then the fault is within yourself.

So of course as someone who believed and now no longer believes, I fall into the category of someone who refuses to find fault in themself or hold onto their belief.

What I did find interesting that you said though, is that when you find an issue, a contradiction, or something that at first appears wrong, that you simply hold onto your belief. You cling to your belief above all things.

Even in the face of falsehood I believe many people would cling to their beliefs.

[ayman]

Okay. Instead of responding to my clueless ignorance with your insulting response why don't you educate us and explain what it actually means?
Or are you satisfied in responding like an arrogant douchebag without spreading the vast amount of knowledge you seem to have over the rest of the Islamic world like the Sunnis and the 19ers (neither of which group I've ever belonged to)?
Not to mention that the meaning of the word submission has very little to do with my argument of whether or not the Qur'an is the word of God or written by men.

Adding laziness to "clueless ignorance" doesn't help )

Had you spent a little effort in using the search function on the forum then you would have found better meanings.

You would have easily found that salam means peace and islam means peacemaking.

Perhaps if you spent a little time studying those very simple words you would have found that the word quran means "intense reading", which is truth that you already acknowledged in your first post.

What I am saying is mundane and fairly simple and you could have easily found it on your own. Now it looks like there is very little chance you might achieve a better understanding than Sunnis, who you claim not to be but strangely and happily believe them on important things. This is because it is a process and asking to be spoonfed without making any effort rarely results in any real progress.

Peace,

Ayman

[GODsubmitter]

Pardon me brother @Faithful-Jinn, although I admire your posts enormously and value your excellent argumentation, in your very last post you just gave me a hint of what the problem might be here...

Perhaps the problem is in the search of Truth versus having Faith (even blind) )

Maybe people who do not question things to the core are better off in general, believing what they chose.
(Holocaust Jewish survivors should be mentioned... truth didn't help, but faith did)

Many a brilliant mind confessed the impossibility of finding the ultimate truth!
(Schopenhauer comes to mind, among many others)

There is a brilliant Jewish joke, which says, that when God created the world he asked people to vote whether he should leave in the world naked truth or naked woman, and everybody voted for naked woman to be left in the world! rotfl
That's why naked truth was exiled from the world! )

[Jafar]

Where in the Qur'an does it suggest that you can take what is good from it and apply it to your life but the things you don't like you can throw it away?

There are.. ) I let you seek it out for yourselves...
The more correct terminology is "The best understanding / meanings of it"..

Okay if this is true nothing in the Qur'an matters and God should be speaking to all of us directly. What's the point of understanding the Qur'an if I don't need it for salvation?

Salvation from what????
I smell 'Christianism' influence here...
The objective of Quran is clearly written on the beginning of chapter 2...

You say the Qur'an is not necessary to believe in God but the BASIS of the Abrahamic faiths is the Holy Books and the traditions, laws, and doctrines within them!

If that's your hypothesis.. tell me... What's "Abraham's holy book"?????
Tradition? Laws? Doctrines??? I smell Judaism influence here..

The BASIS of the Islamic faith for 3 billion Muslims on this planet is the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the source Muslims look to to understand God, His attributes, His laws, what pleases Him, what displeases Him, what heaven is like, what hell is like, where humans come from, basically ALL Islamic doctrine is based on the Qur'an.

islam is not faith/cult/religion, haven't you understood that?

The BASIS of Islamic Cult is the doctrine of Imams, which claimed they derived it from Quran and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...
In similar case of The BASIS of Jesus Cult is the doctrine of Priests/Pastors/Reverend which claimed they derived it from Gospel and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...

It doesn't come directly from God but as you said it is a medium. If the medium is not perfect then God is NOT perfect.

I don't follow your logic here...
Water flow from reservoir to your toilet through a pipe.. if the pipe has leakage then the reservoir has leakage too?
It doesn't make any sense...

And I'm not just saying this based on nothing I'm saying this based on the CRITERIA OF THE QUR'AN ITSELF. The book that many people on this forum claim to be perfect, divine, timeless, and universal by its own criteria claims to be a perfect book from a perfect God.

Where does the Quran say that 'it's timeless'????
It's definitely a total mistake, as timeless means applicable in any times...
And how does a thing be applicable when it was not being written yet????

And where does it say that everything inside is universal and applicable in any places?
Test How does one perform fasting in an area where there are no daylight?

You yourself admit there's no such thing as a perfect holy book but yet your very faith in God and how the universe works is based on one of these holy books.

You're mistaken I don't based my 'perception of things' on merely "one of these holy books"..
Where did I ever said that?

How would you please God without the Qur'an or scripture?

You don't know???

How would you pray without Qur'an or scripture?

I'm more confused now.. Why would you need any scripture to pray???????

How would you know if you were obeying or disobeying His laws without Qur'an or scripture?

God's law a.k.a Nature law is unbreakable by anyone or anything... thus if it's truly "His Law" nobody has any other option but to abide by it..

Where do you get your beliefs if not from the Qur'an? I'd really like to know.

Contemplation... and always asking question..
Ask and you shall receive...

Salam / Peace

[kgwithnob]

First seeming contradiction is the creation of the universe one. Several verses say the universe was made in 6 days or 6 periods or 6 eras or what have you.

But verse 419-12 adds the days up to 8. It took 2 days to create earth, 4 days to fill it up, and another 2 days to create the heavens.

Highlights above are from me.

I start with your first "Qur'aanic contradiction."

According to the Qur?an, the creation of the Universe, the Heavens, and the Earth, did similarly, start out tiny and simple?SIX ?days? (754, 103, 117, 2559, 324, 5038, 574) before the BIG bang (2130). During these six ?days?, this ?cell/embryo?, ?theHeavensandtheEarth?, was within an ?enclosure? as a collective sum, just like a baby growing in the womb before birth. During the BIG bang/the NEW BIRTH (2130), the next stages/the next EIGHT ?days? (419-12), of creation and evolution of the UNIVERSE began.

We are now in the latter parts of the FOURTEENTH ?day?, of the creation of the Universe. The Qur?an informs us about the coming of the Fifteenth/the LAST ?day?.

The above observation is a part of the link below.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600440.msg247806#msg247806

Peace,
Khalil

[Faithful-Jinn]

There are.. I let you seek it out for yourselves...
The more correct terminology is "The best understanding / meanings of it"..
Salvation from what????
I smell 'Christianism' influence here...
The objective of Quran is clearly written on the beginning of chapter 2...

If that's your hypothesis.. tell me... What's "Abraham's holy book"?????
Tradition? Laws? Doctrines??? I smell Judaism influence here..
islam is not faith/cult/religion, haven't you understood that?

The BASIS of Islamic Cult is the doctrine of Imams, which claimed they derived it from Quran and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...
In similar case of The BASIS of Jesus Cult is the doctrine of Priests/Pastors/Reverend which claimed they derived it from Gospel and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...

I don't follow your logic here...
Water flow from reservoir to your toilet through a pipe.. if the pipe has leakage then the reservoir has leakage too?
It doesn't make any sense...

Where does the Quran say that 'it's timeless'????
It's definitely a total mistake, as timeless means applicable in any times...
And how does a thing be applicable when it was not being written yet????

And where does it say that everything inside is universal and applicable in any places?
Test How does one perform fasting in an area where there are no daylight?

You're mistaken I don't based my 'perception of things' on merely "one of these holy books"..
Where did I ever said that?
You don't know???
I'm more confused now.. Why would you need any scripture to pray???????

God's law a.k.a Nature law is unbreakable by anyone or anything... thus if it's truly "His Law" nobody has any other option but to abide by it..
Contemplation... and always asking question..
Ask and you shall receive...

Salam / Peace

Do you believe in heaven and hell Jafar? Do you believe that we will be raised when we die and judged for our life on earth? Do you believe that God communicates with mankind and sends prophets? If you do believe in heaven and hell, then what is the criteria for which we will be judged?

The Qur'an claims to send Muhammad as a warner to all mankind. He's the last warner.

I don't understand why you people keep throwing terms like Christianism and Sunnism at me when I'm neither a Christian or Sunni.

I'd like to understand where you're coming from though. Abraham spoke directly to God apparently or received some type of revelation so he likely wouldn't need a holy book. I don't know about you guys but God never spoke to me directly so I referred to the Qur'an for my spiritual guidance.

Now as for God's law. The most intriguing part of your post I thought.

Do you believe that the laws in the scripture are part of God's law? You claim God's law cannot be broken. Obviously if God's law says do not eat swine and I eat a swine, then I've just broken God's law.

Are you suggesting that laws in the Qur'an are not required to be followed? I don't get it.

[Jafar]

Do you believe in heaven and hell Jafar? Do you believe that we will be raised when we die and judged for our life on earth? Do you believe that God communicates with mankind and sends prophets? If you do believe in heaven and hell, then what is the criteria for which we will be judged?

1. By the same criteria we judged others..
2. By the way we treat others...
3. By the result of our actions...

God communicate with mankind in million ways, and prophet is just one of them...

The Qur'an claims to send Muhammad as a warner to all mankind. He's the last warner.

Show me the verse.... please... where does it say that he's the last warner...

I don't understand why you people keep throwing terms like Christianism and Sunnism at me when I'm neither a Christian or Sunni.

By the way you 'see things'/your mindset... you seems to be following Christians + Judaism sectarian mindset.
You might not be a member of their cult, but your thought processes are deeply influenced by it..

I'd like to understand where you're coming from though. Abraham spoke directly to God apparently or received some type of revelation so he likely wouldn't need a holy book.

Abraham didn't spoke to any God prior to his 'destroy-the-idols-which-my-dad-invented-and-put-the-sword-on-the-biggest-idol-to-prove-my-point' act..

And how did he found out that those idols are BS??
By observation... and critical thinking...

As a son of an idol maker he saw how those idols are being invented by his own dad...
His family thus himself directly benefited from the $$$ his dad make by selling those idols to the (dumb) people.

But his conscience told him otherwise... 'this is not right'... 'we're earning money by bullshitting people'..

Thus he said "Come on dad, let's come clean.. this is not right.. let's tell the truth to those people"..
His dad answered "Shut up son! Remember that this business has earn us a lot of $$$, where did you think I got the money to buy you those bicycle, playstation and laptop? Now help me with this.. and I will give you that motorcycle which you always wanted... do you have any idea on new idols for my spring collection?"
He said "Dad, if you don't tell them.. then I will! The people need to be enlightened from their stupidity!".

I don't know about you guys but God never spoke to me directly so I referred to the Qur'an for my spiritual guidance.

Perhaps He did.. but you just couldn't recognize it??? have you thought about that??

Now as for God's law. The most intriguing part of your post I thought.
Do you believe that the laws in the scripture are part of God's law? You claim God's law cannot be broken. Obviously if God's law says do not eat swine and I eat a swine, then I've just broken God's law.

Nope you just didn't do one of His recommendation...
If it's truly "God's law" then you shall not be able to break or change it...

Example of God's law

• You'll be dead and no one live forever..
• When you f&&ed other people you'll get f*&ed.
• Those who do good deed do it their own soul and those who do bad deed do it to their own soul. (you'll reap what you sow)
• The earth rotate around the sun and not the other way around..
• Gravity is pulling inward and not pushing outward...

Again "God's law in the scripture" is another characteristic of Judaism... and that's how they named their 'holy book'.. Torah.. which means "Law"...

Are you suggesting that laws in the Qur'an are not required to be followed? I don't get it.

Which laws? Tell me... if it's truly God's law then you shall willingly or unwillingly bounded to it...

By the way you didn't answered many of my questions.. would you care to answer those as well?

Salam / Peace

[Faithful-Jinn]

1. By the same criteria we judged others..
2. By the way we treat others...
3. By the result of our actions...

God communicate with mankind in million ways, and prophet is just one of them...

Show me the verse.... please... where does it say that he's the last warner...

By the way you 'see things'/your mindset... you seems to be following Christians + Judaism sectarian mindset.
You might not be a member of their cult, but your thought processes are deeply influenced by it..

Abraham didn't spoke to any God prior to his 'destroy-the-idols-which-my-dad-invented-and-put-the-sword-on-the-biggest-idol-to-prove-my-point' act..

And how did he found out that those idols are BS??
By observation... and critical thinking...

As a son of an idol maker he saw how those idols are being invented by his own dad...
His family thus himself directly benefited from the $$$ his dad make by selling those idols to the (dumb) people.

But his conscience told him otherwise... 'this is not right'... 'we're earning money by bullshitting people'..

Thus he said "Come on dad, let's come clean.. this is not right.. let's tell the truth to those people"..
His dad answered "Shut up son! Remember that this business has earn us a lot of $$$, where did you think I got the money to buy you those bicycle, playstation and laptop? Now help me with this.. and I will give you that motorcycle which you always wanted... do you have any idea on new idols for my spring collection?"
He said "Dad, if you don't tell them.. then I will! The people need to be enlightened from their stupidity!".

Perhaps He did.. but you just couldn't recognize it??? have you thought about that??

Nope you just didn't do one of His recommendation...
If it's truly "God's law" then you shall not be able to break or change it...

Example of God's law

• You'll be dead and no one live forever..
• When you f&&ed other people you'll get f*&ed.
• Those who do good deed do it their own soul and those who do bad deed do it to their own soul. (you'll reap what you sow)
• The earth rotate around the sun and not the other way around..
• Gravity is pulling inward and not pushing outward...

Again "God's law in the scripture" is another characteristic of Judaism... and that's how they named their 'holy book'.. Torah.. which means "Law"...
Which laws? Tell me... if it's truly God's law then you shall willingly or unwillingly bounded to it...

By the way you didn't answered many of my questions.. would you care to answer those as well?

Salam / Peace

You said we're judged by how we treat others and what not. What about belief? What if someone is good but doesn't believe in God? According to the Qur'an if you don't believe you go to hell. Surely you're not suggesting that all believers are good people and all polytheists and atheists are bad people?

It says he's the seal of the prophets. You know what I mean.

So did GOD tell Abraham or did he use his own logical mind?! There's a huge difference. I can figure out morality on my own and be a good person and still go to hell according to the Qur'an because I didn't believe in Allah or perform his rituals. This makes little sense to me.

Perhaps God did speak to me. At many times in my life I thought he did. But now I'm using my rational mind and looking at things objectively and thinking "Maybe I just had an emotional reaction to a circumstance in my life that made me THINK God was speaking to me".

The whole law vs. recommendation thing seems a little silly. Who judges us when we die? You say we'll be judged how judge others, how we treat others, and our actions. Who is to say what we did was good, or bad, or not. Different people have different morals. Morality can be subjective. Without God who is to say what I did was right or wrong? Maybe I thought I was sincerely doing good.

Which goes back to my question. How do we know how we are pleasing God without Qur'an or scripture? Is God e-mailing His instructions directly to your head? It would seem that you live life based on your own morals and then attribute those morals to God the way you're speaking.

This is a sincere question. How do you know the attributes of the God you're praying to without any type of scripture or revelation. Say the Bible, Qur'an, never existed and you've never heard any of the history of the prophets. How do you know what your God likes and doesn't like or what He expects from you or anything about Him. How would you know there's an afterlife and you will be judged?

That's what I mean when I say God isn't speaking to us directly. Without scripture I would have NO reason to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, or judgment day.

If I was born today and had never heard of any religion or any belief system why would I ever believe these things?

I'm not sure what questions you have that you want me to answer. Maybe I wasn't concise and precise enough in some of my claims of a timeless revelation but I know the Qur'an says Muhammad is a warner for all mankind. Which would seem that all mankind suggests something timeless.

Your point that a holy book isn't necessary for faith though is true as Adam, Abraham, Noah and all before Moses didn't even need any book.

[realitykid]

Brother, I find it very sad that you are leaving Islam. '( I am sorry that it didn't work out for you. I hope that God will continue to guide you and maybe bring you back to the truth of Islam. I also hope that things work out for you in your life and that you do find something that works for you.

No point in pushing my beliefs on you or being mean to you if you do not return to Islam. It's your choice, and I respect your honesty about it. Although, you and I see things differently.

Peace!

[Jafar]

So did GOD tell Abraham or did he use his own logical mind?!

It's kind of hard to differentiate given every event, up to the smallest event such as hair falling down from your head.. happened according to His will???
But in any case it doesn't matter isn't it?

There's a huge difference. I can figure out morality on my own and be a good person and still go to hell according to the Qur'an because I didn't believe in Allah or perform his rituals. This makes little sense to me.

Of course it's nonsense.. and where did the Quran said that??

Perhaps God did speak to me. At many times in my life I thought he did. But now I'm using my rational mind and looking at things objectively and thinking "Maybe I just had an emotional reaction to a circumstance in my life that made me THINK God was speaking to me".

He might 'talk' to you by not exchanging audio signal...

The whole law vs. recommendation thing seems a little silly. Who judges us when we die? You say we'll be judged how judge others, how we treat others, and our actions. Who is to say what we did was good, or bad, or not.

The "King of Judgement Day" of course..

Different people have different morals. Morality can be subjective. Without God who is to say what I did was right or wrong? Maybe I thought I was sincerely doing good.

Norms.. can be subjective.. is it polite to leave breast open for female? Is it appropriate to not wearing anything except covering your penis with some kind of wooden enclosure? That's relative...

But empathy and morality is not...

Slavery.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are a slave how would you like to be treated?
Murder.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are the victim of murder?

Which goes back to my question. How do we know how we are pleasing God without Qur'an or scripture? Is God e-mailing His instructions directly to your head? It would seem that you live life based on your own morals and then attribute those morals to God the way you're speaking.

He might use email.. among others
And he did talk to my conscience.. IF I listen to it closely..

This is a sincere question. How do you know the attributes of the God you're praying to without any type of scripture or revelation. Say the Bible, Qur'an, never existed and you've never heard any of the history of the prophets. How do you know what your God likes and doesn't like or what He expects from you or anything about Him. How would you know there's an afterlife and you will be judged?

I always thought perhaps it's better to keep the afterlife and judgement day as a 'secret'..
Thus good people shall do good for the sake of doing good.. and not for the sake of having some 'credit' point for Heaven..

If you're truly good people you shall do good deed for the sake of doing good.. even when you shall have no reward of doing it..

That's what I mean when I say God isn't speaking to us directly. Without scripture I would have NO reason to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, or judgment day.

And now with the scripture you believe in them?
And does that makes you a better person?
Do you do good deed because of it?
When.. as it turns out there are no heaven and hell or judgement day.. will you do good deed?

Your point that a holy book isn't necessary for faith though is true as Adam, Abraham, Noah and all before Moses didn't even need any book.

It's true... as human being we all have conscience...
Some people choose to listen to it, and some others doesn't... it's all their choice...

Salam / Peace

[Faithful-Jinn]

It's kind of hard to differentiate given every event, up to the smallest event such as hair falling down from your head.. happened according to His will???
But in any case it doesn't matter isn't it?

Of course it's nonsense.. and where did the Quran said that??

He might 'talk' to you by not exchanging audio signal...

The "King of Judgement Day" of course..

Norms.. can be subjective.. is it polite to leave breast open for female? Is it appropriate to not wearing anything except covering your penis with some kind of wooden enclosure? That's relative...

But empathy and morality is not...

Slavery.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are a slave how would you like to be treated?
Murder.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are the victim of murder?

He might use email.. among others
And he did talk to my conscience.. IF I listen to it closely..

I always thought perhaps it's better to keep the afterlife and judgement day as a 'secret'..
Thus good people shall do good for the sake of doing good.. and not for the sake of having some 'credit' point for Heaven..

If you're truly good people you shall do good deed for the sake of doing good.. even when you shall have no reward of doing it..

And now with the scripture you believe in them?
And does that makes you a better person?
Do you do good deed because of it?
When.. as it turns out there are no heaven and hell or judgement day.. will you do good deed?

It's true... as human being we all have conscience...
Some people choose to listen to it, and some others doesn't... it's all their choice...

Salam / Peace

?And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.? (Quran 3131)

It says right there that the Fire is prepared for the disbelievers. It says this almost a hundred times in the Qur'an so I don't know what you're getting at. If you're saying that the rules in the Qur'an are just suggestions, that you don't need to follow them to go to heaven, and that disbelievers don't go to hell it sounds like you're making your own belief system up.

I don't mean to disrespect but you're starting to say some crazy stuff. It seems you don't care about what the Qur'an says and have your own ideas about God.

[donnyw]

You said we're judged by how we treat others and what not. What about belief? What if someone is good but doesn't believe in God? According to the Qur'an if you don't believe you go to hell. Surely you're not suggesting that all believers are good people and all polytheists and atheists are bad people?

Dear Faithfull Jinn,

I can see you have very good views on many things and i agree with them, though I disagree on you on some and most crucial points.
By the way I'm new here, it is no disrespect to you, but I just want to convey my opinion on this discussion.

If you read Quran carefully, you will find that our SOLE mission (human and jinn) to live in this very short life span in the world is to redeem ourselves! Being nice, kind, loving etc is NOT the priority mission.

This because we have made gross sin in the past (in our 1st life in heaven) by put doubt on Allah and agree with Satan view on certain degree, that is blasphemy to God in highest degree, if your child reject you as their only parent, you are mad aren't you? (Doesn't mean I'm saying we are children of God, just allegory)

That is the reason Allah banish us from heaven, and due to His Merciful attribute, we are given second chance to think it over again, so Allah created this earth as a testing ground to separate humans, who will repent and who still have no clue of who the real God is. Allah fully knows who will repent and who wont! The purpose of earth living is just to serve a prove, a kind of video recording for everything we are doing here, so in hereafter in the judment day, this record will be presented before each individual and no human can deny their wrong doing! Contrary to most belief that Allah have no clue what human will do here in earth.

If you think of it carefully of above, you will find that to be nice, kind person, good people is NOT first criteria in the judgement day! Though being a believer we shall be nice, kind person, but this is accepted only AFTER we believe in God alone.

If you failed to renounce your flaw belief (still by putting doubt in Allah, or follow other baseless law, or worst reject Him totally) than all the good works you did in this world is nullified, it doesn't matter if you are Gandhi or mother Teressa or the nicest person ever live, you shall be judged by your SOLE mission first whether you are success or fail.

Sorry to make this post longer, but I think below is important to make things more clearer, so below is what was happened in order

• Billion years ago we were living in heaven with all creatures, enjoy all the goodness and happiness
• One day satan made claim that they can help God manage the creation in some degree (satan was one of most powerful creature I belief and made them arrogant)
• All creatures debating this claim, some small percentage of creature agree to this satan's view (jinn), and some are interested but no decision (human), the majority rejected this claim.
• God was about to banish this rebels (human and jinn) to hell (hell is not created yet), but God knows that not all of them are truly disbelievers, some of them can change their belief and make repentance if given second chance!
• That is the SOLE reason why God create earth, it is a TESTING ground to filter believer and disbeliever, God knows the believer will be a small number only! They can saved themselves and avoid hell
• God started to sent down human, first from Adam (after the incident of forbidden tree - which of course Allah's plan), then all our past memories erased, so we actually start on clean slate! God know where to put us, in rich family, poor family etc, God knows how to measure.
• God of course doesn't expect all these human to be believers, God know most wont! God sent the scriptures only to save those small number of people, God doesn't intend to save all mankind because if He wants He can just simply pardon us all. Instead, Allah also said in Qur'an that Allah can just annihilated us all before, but His mercy encompass his wrath. Ok you maybe can start seeing why Allah is the most Merciful here.
• Here we are, in this forum still debating, just like what we did in heaven before, Allah said in Qur'an that human is the most argumentative creatures, indeed I find this is very true.

If you read 1st ayah of Albaqarah (the very first beginning of Quran after Alfatihah), you will find that Qur'an is 'the beacon for the muttaqin', Allah didn't say that Qur'an is the beacon for all humanity! Think of it, do you know WHY?

So if you understand the scenario above, you will understand that we should end-up in Hell right now this minute already, but Allah give us second chance, but Allah knows that only a small fraction us us will be believer again and redeemed, so he give His blessing by sending the beacon which is Qur'an to those believer. All others have hardened heart, and they have no clue why they are in here and continuing to deny God, and they deserve hell for their belief, no matter they are nice, kind or loving etc... really no matter!

Perhaps now you will understand why most Jews, Christian, Muslim and others end-up in hell, it is NOT Allah put them there, but they themselves INSIST to be put in hell. It doesn't matter how nice they are, deep in their heart they are just plain rebel.

But being a believer, to be nice, kind and loving is a must, why? Because it is automatic... it can't be faked! When people realized how small they are, how helpless they are, how God control everything, they will be humble, they will not be arrogant, and automatically this type of people will be a loving kind nicest person you will ever met.

So this is my opinion, and sorry for my bad English, perhaps this can shed some light to you.

Sorry I dont include the Quran ayah related to above yet, as I'm in hurry. I will edit my post later and include the related ayat from Qur'an.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

AlQuraan is just the medium. It has been send to show us the path towards our TheCreator.

Unfortunately, people take Nabis, Rasools and AlQuraan as idols besides God. I agree on that. But all of them are just to make us aware of Allah, and let us know what is God and why we have been created, etc.

mmKhan

This! Did the Prophets before the last Prophet (peace upon them all) have AQ? AQ is A means, not necessarily THE means. It has been stated before that the unexamined life is not worth living.

@Faithful-Jinn Faith in AQ is not mandatory. Monotheism is the key, and you are still a monotheist, right? This is the "bigger picture." Has AQ helped you in monotheism at all, or enhanced your life? If so, then it has for now served its purpose for you. If you reconsider your position at another time, AQ will still be there. There is no Islamic truth and there is no Christian truth or any other XXX truth--there is only what is true and what is not. Keep seeking and keep striving.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[Faithful-Jinn]

Dear Faithfull Jinn,

I can see you have very good views on many things and i agree with them, though I disagree on you on some and most crucial points.
By the way I'm new here, it is no disrespect to you, but I just want to convey my opinion on this discussion.

If you read Quran carefully, you will find that our SOLE mission (human and jinn) to live in this very short life span in the world is to redeem ourselves! Being nice, kind, loving etc is NOT the priority mission.

This because we have made gross sin in the past (in our 1st life in heaven) by put doubt on Allah and agree with Satan view on certain degree, that is blasphemy to God in highest degree, if your child reject you as their only parent, you are mad aren't you? (Doesn't mean I'm saying we are children of God, just allegory)

That is the reason Allah banish us from heaven, and due to His Merciful attribute, we are given second chance to think it over again, so Allah created this earth as a testing ground to separate humans, who will repent and who still have no clue of who the real God is.

If you think of it carefully of above, you will find that to be nice, kind person, good people is NOT first criteria in the judgement day! Though being a believer we shall be nice, kind person, but this is accepted only AFTER we believe in God alone.

If you failed to renounce your flaw belief (still by putting doubt in Allah, or follow other baseless law, or worst reject Him totally) than all the good works you did in this world is nullified, it doesn't matter if you are Gandhi or mother Teressa or the nicest person ever live, you shall be judged by your SOLE mission first whether you are success or fail.

Sorry to make this post longer, but I think below is important to make things more clearer, so below is what was happened in order

• Billion years ago we were living in heaven with all creatures, enjoy all the goodness and happiness
• One day satan made claim that they can help God manage the creation in some degree (satan was one of most powerful creature I belief and made them arrogant)
• All creatures debating this claim, some small percentage of creature agree to this satan's view (jinn), and some are interested but no decision (human), the majority rejected this claim.
• God was about to banish this rebels (human and jinn) to hell (hell is not created yet), but God knows that not all of them are truly disbelievers, some of them can change their belief and make repentance if given second chance!
• That is the SOLE reason why God create earth, it is a TESTING ground to filter believer and disbeliever, God knows the believer will be a small number only! They can saved themselves and avoid hell
• God started to sent down human, first from Adam (after the incident of forbidden tree - which of course Allah's plan), then all our past memories erased, so we actually start on clean slate!
• God of course doesn't expect all these human to be believers, God know most wont! God send the scriptures only to save those small number of people, God doesn't intend to save all mankind because if He wants He can just simply pardon us all. Instead, Allah also said in Qur'an that Allah can just annihilated us all before, but His mercy encompass his wrath. Ok you maybe can start seeing why Allah is the most Merciful here.
• Here we are, in this forum still debating, just like what we did in heaven before, Allah said in Qur'an that human is the most argumentative creatures, indeed I find this is very true.

If you read 1st ayah of Albaqarah (the very first beginning of Quran after Alfatihah), you will find that Qur'an is 'the beacon for the muttaqin', Allah didn't say that Qur'an is the beacon for all humanity! Think of it, do you know WHY?

So if you understand the scenario above, you will understand that we should end-up in Hell right now this minute already, but Allah give us second chance, but Allah knows that only a small fraction us us will be believer again and redeemed, so he give His blessing by sending the beacon which is Qur'an to those believer. All others have hardened heart, and they have no clue why they are in here and continuing to deny God, and they deserve hell for their belief, no matter they are nice, kind or loving etc... really no matter!

Perhaps now you will understand why most Jews, Christian, Muslim and others end-up in hell, it is NOT Allah put them there, but they themselves INSIST to be put in hell. It doesn't matter how nice they are, deep in their heart they are just plain rebel.

But being a believer, to be nice, kind and loving is a must, why? Because it is automatic... it can't be faked! When people realized how small they are, how helpless they are, how God control everything, they will be humble, they will not be arrogant, and automatically this type of people will be a loving kind nicest person you will ever met.

So this is my opinion, and sorry for my bad English, perhaps this can shed some light to you.

Sorry I dont include the Quran ayah related to above yet, as I'm in hurry. I will edit my post later and include the related ayat from Qur'an.

And where's the evidence for that whole story that we were all in heaven and God sent us to earth as humans?

In addition I have to add that there's plenty of people who believe in God who are arrogant douchebags and plenty of people who don't believe that are nice and humble.

Seems kind of stupid to say only by believing in God can you be a good person. Being a good person, like you said, isn't what gets you into heaven it's being a believer.

The entire premise that God would allow his messages and revelations to be so corrupted by men resulting in multiple Abrahamic faiths and claims that each religion claims to be from God and the other ones are correct.

I mean some people here are acting like it doesn't even matter what you are but if that's the case what do you think is the truth? Surely if the Qur'an is CORRECT then that means Jews and Christians are WRONG. Why would God send down revelation KNOWING it would result in all this headache? Is that really omnibenevolence?

I mean the crux of my whole statement is whether or not the Qur'an is the direct word of God. If it's not I have no reason to believe any of this stuff.

[Faithful-Jinn]

Greetings and Peace, all group

This! Did the Prophets before the last Prophet (peace upon them all) have AQ? AQ is A means, not necessarily THE means. It has been stated before that the unexamined life is not worth living.

@Faithful-Jinn Faith in AQ is not mandatory. Monotheism is the key, and you are still a monotheist, right? This is the "bigger picture." Has AQ helped you in monotheism at all, or enhanced your life? If so, then it has for now served its purpose for you. If you reconsider your position at another time, AQ will still be there. There is no Islamic truth and there is no Christian truth or any other XXX truth--there is only what is true and what is not. Keep seeking and keep striving.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Correct. There is only truth. I've had much positivity since converting but can I TRULY attribute it to God?

Also if there is only truth, someone has to be correct. Since you're on a Qur'an alone forum I assume you believe the Qur'an is truth? Do you believe the Qur'an is 100% of the truth or only a portion?

[donnyw]

And where's the evidence for that whole story that we were all in heaven and God sent us to earth as humans?

Faithful Jinn, thank you for your reply.

Here is the evidence from Qur'an

Few billion years ago Great Feud arose in heavenly society when satan made his claim

• 3869 I had no knowledge of the Highest Chiefs when they disputed;

So that is when all creatures in heaven were in dispute, we human already existed at that time, and we made blasphemy by not rejecting this satan claim. Here below verses the proof that we have been in heaven before

God took our witness before He sent us down to earth.

7172 And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls Am I not your Lord? They said Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection Surely we were heedless of this.

Clearly from above, before our soul was put inside human body, we bore witness that God is our Lord, and this is why in innermost heart human have instinct about God, but they insist by denying it. Also clearly from above verse, we can't deny that we were misleaded in the day of resurrection, because we had bore witness that Allah is our Lord alone!

Then Allah create death 672, then created human body 1526 and jinn body 1527
(note that human was created on few stages, first from water (we now know from science lifes originated from sea remember), then mud, then sperm, then clot (embryo), people who dont understand this thought Allah has discrepancy, but they have no idea that Allah describe clearly in Quran that human body built in stages.

• Then Allah made scenario (to prove who the real satan is!) by asking satan to prostate to human 234, 711, 1761, 1850, 20116, Allah knows satan wont do it, thus proving to all entire creatures in heaven that satan was indeed arrogant. This scenario witnessed by all creatures, so other creatures wont complain when Allah banish satan to hell, they are indeed arrogant! Allah has the case, it is not out of prejudice, but proven case.

You know what happen next, we are sending down to earth, to be redeemed back to heaven, but only for those who knows their wrong doing EXACTLY and make repentance. This is NOT about the contest of being the nicest person on earth (sorry my hyperbole), though being righteous and nice is the NEXT thing you should do after you realized why you are here.

In addition I have to add that there's plenty of people who believe in God who are arrogant douchebags and plenty of people who don't believe that are nice and humble.

Seems kind of stupid to say only by believing in God can you be a good person. Being a good person, like you said, isn't what gets you into heaven it's being a believer.

• First only God can judge and knows innermost heart.

• Second, being nice is not guaranteed a true believer, being a believer is not guarantee a heaven as well!, so being nice and believer is not sufficient. Proof below

• 12-106 "And most of them (believer) do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him)".
  So are you wonder why believers who are douchebag, or EVEN nice, kindest, but they (majority) will end-up in hell at the end, clearly the criteria is not about being a nicest person, but first criteria is not to associate others (with Him)! I do hope brother.... this will help you to find the real answer...think it over in calm mind....this might save your life.

Even the nicest, loving, kind person in earth that you might see by your plain eyes, if he reject God in his deepest heart, it is the greatest blasphemy in Allah eyes, he is the most arrogant, certainly he is not the nicest one. Certainly.....

• Four, only God know innermost thought, you can't judge people by appearance! A scumbag today might be angel tomorrow, and vice versa. For example, I myself about 10 years back and before indeed was an arrogant man, I admitted I was scumbag to highest order, really, those who know me in the past might surprise to see me now, I'm not nicest person now, but I know I'm changed for all these years, so if you met me in the past, did you know that I will be changed? You wont know the answer.... D

Seems kind of stupid to say only by believing in God can you be a good person. Being a good person, like you said, isn't what gets you into heaven it's being a believer.

It is not stupid actually, indeed contrary to what you think, if you read Quran carefully, Allah told us, the purpose of Salat, Zakat and other ritual is to change a man for better of him, to be a good person. So if you find a believer who is scumbag, means he is not yet reaching the point... but he indeed has a good base. In meantime if he continue imprving himslef he will be good man.
Being a real believer will certainly makes a person a good man. This is undeniable truth as Allah told us in Quran, and it is actually one of reason why Quran being sent down, as a source of knowledge how to attain righteousness!

Clearly rituals (salat, zakat etc) are not for Allah, but to improve ourselves.

[Faithful-Jinn]

So before we were born God made our immortal soul testify to His existence... Okay I remember that concept from the Qur'an.

Seems ridiculous though. God punishes me because I can't remember what happened before I was born? Surely God knows that I can't ever remember being in heaven or having a conversation with Him.

The idea seems absurd to me now to be quite honest. Before the idea used to resonate with me but now it seems simply absurd. God is going to punish us for not remembering something that we couldn't possibly remember, and then when we die he tells us that before we were born we testified so now we must burn?

I guess I'm becoming an apostate because the idea of the Abrahamic God seems sillier every day I think about it.

[good_logic]

Peace Faithful-Jinn.

Sorry I withheld for a bit to let you have your conversations with others.

You have too many questions. I have given you a link to read/browse/reflect on before. It deals with all these queries of yours Here is the link again

http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/what-do-i-do-next/

I hope you take some time to reflect with me ,it will take you a bit of time. Have you got some more patience left?

I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for.
Peace.

[donnyw]

Seems ridiculous though. God punishes me because I can't remember what happened before I was born? Surely God knows that I can't ever remember being in heaven or having a conversation with Him.

The idea seems absurd to me now to be quite honest. Before the idea used to resonate with me but now it seems simply absurd. God is going to punish us for not remembering something that we couldn't possibly remember, and then when we die he tells us that before we were born we testified so now we must burn?

That is the whole idea!

The idea is to start a clean slate, it is fair for everybody and the result will be determined entirely by what you do in this earth and not affected even in slightest atom by your past life experiences! So it is fair race no matter who you are in the past, you might have high ranking in heaven before, but here in earth you might wont.

This mean the test in earth will produce highest quality result (outcome) for declaring who the real individual is, so either he is real disbeliever or real believer, I emphasize the term 'real' because this is indeed will be opened in the day of judgement that Allah judge by the true outcome, not by appearances that we human see/feel in this earth, everything is recorded so it is very fair and detailed far beyond what we can comprehend.

Qur'an told that some people think they are believer but they are NOT! They only realized that in the judgement day. So this gives us the clue that our thinking has some flaws, we tend to judge according to our limited capacity, something of likes and dislikes. What we think is right is not necessarily true.

So that is why Quran being sent down, to give us chance to find that clue and answer of this life, depending on our mind only is not enough, furthermore satan has power to influence us, injecting his beliefe until end of our life.

So the answer to your last question

God is going to punish us for not remembering something that we couldn't possibly remember, and then when we die he tells us that before we were born we testified so now we must burn?

Exactly! That is WHY Quran being sent down for us to gain knowledge and remember!! Remember what was our past life, remember what is life is all about. If NO Quran we will NEVER know this, am I right?

Now you know already from Quran the answer to your question, now you know we bore witness before, you know what is the test in the earth, now you know why Quran is for the mustaqin (real believer), because majority of people simply rejetc Quran without fully understanding it. So they miss this CRUCIAL information!

They are the one insist putting themselves in Hell, not God.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

Correct. There is only truth. I've had much positivity since converting but can I TRULY attribute it to God?

Also if there is only truth, someone has to be correct. Since you're on a Qur'an alone forum I assume you believe the Qur'an is truth? Do you believe the Qur'an is 100% of the truth or only a portion?

The first answer I won't attempt to answer. Sidestepping the question for a moment, at least there were benefits for you--whatever the cause.

There is no monopoly on truth, not in this life.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Religions are like adjectives. For myself, I believe AQ to be 100% true--ALLAH knows best. This is not to say that "other" monotheists are somehow wrong or other paths to monotheism without merit. There are not other monotheists, only monotheists. AQ is a message, a tool. To ALLAH is the goal.

You are using the resources available to you and your best understanding. To those with the negative comments

494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.

I wish you well wishes, and success in your search for truth in this life.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi