I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
-
So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?
I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.
But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.
I just don't know what to do right now.
On the one hand a lot of things about Islam resonate deeply with me. On the other hand a lot of it feels like bullshit too.
There can never be a way to truly know who is right or wrong in this world.
-
?And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.? (Quran 3131)
The word there is "Kafiryn" the grammar of "KFR".. meaning "Those who covers / hide".
The imams translate those as "Those who dare to challenge their authority / do not accept what they say". (Unbeliever to what the Imam said)..
Thus it will be aligned with their political agenda..By citing my example above among the example of "Those who try to cover and hide error/lies/the truth" is the priests / the idol maker. The idol maker in my story above knew very well the idols are big BS.. given he created them himself.. For young abe, it's much safer for him to 'play along' as bullshitting those dumb folks give $$$ to his family thus to him as well.. but he took another path... the difficult path.... and he paid dearly for it...
Citing the Gospel, it was (again) the priest who are the kafiryn..
Mr J this time around took the difficult path.. he expose their lies and hypocrisy.. and he paid dearly for it..I don't mean to disrespect but you're starting to say some crazy stuff. It seems you don't care about what the Qur'an says and have your own ideas about God.
Perhaps now you start to realize 'who is Crazy' in this case?
Cult/Sect/Religion is a total nutcase!!
So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?
God is the key..
I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.
It's a big BS.. don't do that.. it's evil..
The imams which translate the verse to things which suits their desire.. and sometime their boss desire who are usually political figure / warlord with lots of $$$ and they have many sex slaves from the conquest of neighboring region... Thus they can afford to pay a troop of priests/imams/clerics errgghh.. I mean... "to make huge sum of donation in the way of Allah" and the priest/imam/clerics shall say whatever things that they want in order to payback the generosity.. And any priest/imam/cleric who refuse to do so shall have have his head cut-off...Salam / Peace
-
So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?
I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.
But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.
I just don't know what to do right now.
On the one hand a lot of things about Islam resonate deeply with me. On the other hand a lot of it feels like bullshit too.
There can never be a way to truly know who is right or wrong in this world.
Dear brother,
God is the key, but how do you know God whereabout? How do you meet him asking Him what to do? No you wont be able to do that, God is unlike His creation, we can meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.
So God knows that human wants His words, human need proof, human need guidance, so that is Quran all about.
Now your question about slavery.
Do you know that slavery is practised and considered normal even until 19-20th century? Remember how Americans brought slaves from Africa? You were talking about Quran who sent down 1400 years ago, where slavery should be normal, much normal than 19-20th century.
God doesn't intend to prohibit slaves outright that time few centuries ago just like that, people will protest that because it is common at that time, even the people consider slaves is ok for sexual pleasure too... at that time remember that.! God knows slavery will cease to exist at 20th century, here we are... BUT Qur'an in many verses God said to free slaves!! So this us clue that God doesn't like slavery!
How you can say Allah permitted slavery? If you read Quran the answer is clear.
Indeed human who made slavery exist, and God told human to free slaves in Quran, that is clear indication.
-
Gentlemen, your petty little personal opinions are quite irrelevant and boring.
The issue here is simply that some of us came to believe that Quran is NOT direct from god, nor the word of god, nor the message for humanity nor for all times.
We came here to learn and find someone to teach us otherwise, or show us evidence that we made wrong conclusions perhaps.
Please debate in a spirit of fair play and with good manners which I expect even from Muslims.
Thank you
Ur not interested in knowing otherwise thats my poiint. Already the thread is now 11 pages. Thats a wild goose chase if I ever seen one. Its going to go in circles. I knew it from the start.
-
Brother Faithfull Jinn, I was about to edit my post and insert more explanation to support my opinion, but the time has expired to edit, so here I post again the one I already edited, discard the previous post. Thanks!
So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?
Dear Faithful Jinn,
InsyaAllah I have the answer for you, this is a bit long but hopefully you can get something from it.
God is the key, but how do you find God and God's whereabout? How do you meet him directly to ask Him what to do in this life? No you wont be able to do that, God is unlike His creation, we can't meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.
The existence of God is so powerful that even earth itself cannot withstand, this is information was told in Quran. So we have to accept that we can only see God in hereafter only.
Remember, there is verse saying that all heavens and earth (all 7 layers of universes) all in God's right hand, when you know how enermous this universe we know, and what science able to know/observe so far only 1st layer, you can't even imagine how big is 2nd layer, and how big is 3rd, 4rd, 5th, 6th, and last 7th universe is. Your mind just cant comprehend!
And now those 7 universes are in God's right hand, not in both hands you mind, there is a big different on that, but in one hand only, now you now Who you are dealing with! Allah is so big even beyond our comprehension. We realize now how powerful is God and how tiny we are.
Many of us demanding God to show proof or miracle otherwise we dont believe in scripture or anything that God sent. We dont realize that even the scripture is actually is a toned-down version of God's knowledge designed in such way that can be comprehended by human weak eyes and mind only.
God is able to provide much more sophisticated scripture if he wants just to show how powerful He is, but then most human then wont understand, so no point to do that, but most human just dont know it about.God knows and control every atoms in this universe, it is not difficult for him to create a most impresive book for human and makes them all convert to believers, but if God intend to convert all human He just said 'be it' and done! It is not difficult for Him.
Human think God should pamper them all the way, it is not the fact of life. We are here because we are tested, the winner (very small minority) are the one who uphold what God commanded (of course Quran), and majority will end-up in Hell fro the gross sin they have did in the past and FAIL to think and repent in this SECOND chance!
So dont blame God if most people destined to Hell, they have been PARDONED before but they repeat the same mistake. They are the one insist on going to hell.
Back to Quran, some people think that Quran should be understood by their straight logic, so if not 'logical' they discard it.
Do you remember back in few centuries ago when all people think the earth was flat? Even the people in prophet era think the same way, WHY they didn't know that earth is round despite that the Quran clearly gives a hint on that?WHY only this recent years people understand the verse that related to Big Bang?
Sure because human LOGICAL thinking is limited by his own knowledge and what era he lives, so it is really a flaw to just believe our own logic, this is a fact you can't deny! We might find what is true today might be false tomorrow!
So we are sometime hopeless when we realized that and do not know what to do, I understand what you thinking now, I have been there before. Until I realized that the answer is just there lying in front of our eyes.
As God said only the real believer will be able to see the proof and guidance in it. if God said it then it should be true! So Not all believers will be able to understand, even the believers in the highest level must not understand all 100%, God knows that of course, so the idea is not to be the most intelligent creature ever, but be smart enough to figure what is this life is about, and what to follow and do, simple. But not so simple for most people.
That is not a blind faith by the way, in fact it is the opposite, intelligent in religion can be only attained when using reason, so this is not about discarding logic mind you, in fact using it, find the proof as the proof is everywhere. With the advance of science we know now that many verses in Quran is true, this is the intelligent I'm talking about, but sadly people do not even look around them, they have limited view and when they dont understand Quran they blame it that it doesn't fit logic.
You might ask, WHY many intelligent people fail to understand Quran? I have the answer;
Do you remember the reason why satan banished from heaven and destined to hell? They dare to object God's command. WHY? Satan was one of most powerful creature in heaven, yet he failed, WHY?
Yes because satan has arrogance! they dont want to do what Gold told them, because their arrogance (Ego) prevent them to.
This is a lesson for us, the real cause people do not understand Quran is because the human tendency which is Arrogance (Ego) just like Satan, in fact Quran command us to remove our ego, so this gives us the answer.
So in my opinion, we must have to really questioned ourselves, are we really sincere with God?
I have provided you the story above, in summary we can't depend on (flaw) logic alone, and shall avoid arrogance, the only cure is sincere at heart, and that is EXACTLY God said in Quran, only the sincere will understand Quran, if God said that will you not believe?
We are responsible to help yourselves. If we fail to learn anything from Quran, we are the sole cause of our failure because our own ignorance and arrogant, not God.
That is the key of this life.
Now your question about slavery.
I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.
But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.
Do you know that slavery is practised and considered normal even until 19-20th century? Remember how Americans brought slaves from Africa? You were talking about Quran who sent down 1400 years ago, where slavery should much normal than 19-20th century.
God doesn't intend to prohibit slaves outright that time (few centuries ago) just like that, people will not accept, God knows that. People is so sticked to norm in the era they live, even the people at that time consider slaves is ok for sexual pleasure too!! This is not what God condone, BUT it is the FACT of that time!
Remember again that world was flat according to people in the past, when God said that earth is like egg, nobody even notice or agree! God indeed prohibit slavery, but people do not notice, only this recent age that we know slavery is not good, only this 21th century we know the term of HUMAN'S RIGHT!
So does God condone slavery? Remember God in Qur'an told us in many verses to free slaves!! This is the clue I'm talking above, God doesn't like slavery. But only us, the people in this recent century only UNDERSTOOD this. Not even people in early 20th century understood this, let alone people in 1400 years ago!
I hope the above shed some light and help you to learn something.
-
Ur not interested in knowing otherwise thats my poiint. Already the thread is now 11 pages. Thats a wild goose chase if I ever seen one. Its going to go in circles. I knew it from the start.
Let them have their own experience Bigmo, they'll see what you mean )
-
Peace savage-carrot and all those who are taking part.
Actually this is not a "wild goose chase". This is bringing up a lot of useful points. Particularly these two
- Arrogance and Greatness of GOD.
Many are too arrogant to accept the "Qoran" fully. They only choose and pick ( accept it partially!)
Many do not value GOD as HE should be valued
4529 This is our record, it utters the truth about you. We have been recording everything you did.? ( GOD s CCTV at its best?)
463 Surely those who say? Our Lord is GOD? then lead a righteous life, ( and are not arrogant to repent and submit!) will have no fear nor will they grieve.?
4615 Were We too burdened by the first creation? Is this why they doubt the Resurrection??
5036 Many a generation before them ( GOD is addressing this 21st Century generation!) who were more powerful, We annihilated. They searched the land ( This generation have searched the land ,sea and sky?) did they find an escape??
( Can they escape from GOD and prevent themselves from being judged?)
5037 This should be a lesson for everyone who possesses a mind, or is able to hear and witness!?
The most important priority is upholding the authority of GOD Alone. Total and sincere submission. You cannot fool GOD.
6216 ? And put your trust in the Almighty, the most Merciful.?
( Total loyalty to GOD ALONE?)
26;225 Do you not see that their loyalty shifts according to the situation. (They are in!)?
26226 ? And that they say what they do not do.?
( They say GOD is Great? They say God is Powerful, Eternal, etc., etc?.? Yet act as if HE does not exist?)
292 Do the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? Without being put to the test??
293 We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful (Totally loyal to HIM ALONE) and HE must expose the liars.?
294 ? Do those who commit sins ( Or have other motives) think that they can ever fool Us? Wrong is their judgement.?
( Do whatever you want, He sees what you do?)
3029 ? The transgressors have followed their own opinions ( and the opinions of their idols) without knowledge? No one can ever help them ( against GOD)?
3030 ? Therefore you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict Monotheism. ( total submission and loyalty to GOD ALONE) Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change ( The kingdom of GOD will have no rebels?) This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.?
3031 ? You shall submit to HIM,reverence HIM, Observe your prayer/(commitment) ( connect to HIM ,ask HIM for help), and whatever you do, do not ever fall into idol worship.?
This ia the main point.
Peace. -
Many are too arrogant to accept the "Qoran" fully. They only choose and pick ( accept it partially!)
Of course and that's the way it should be...
If the "Quran" said "Enslave others!" then F&*k it.. don't enslave others..Upon the battle of conscience vs "something which people considered as holy" I always sided with my conscience..
My conscience might not be perfect, but it's the best thing that I got..Another summary from this discussion are
- There are people who idolize the Quran
- There are people who think that Quran need to be 'defended'.. and by doing so it will please their deity.. and by pleasing their deity they're expecting a reward (in heaven or on this world) from their deity.
- Paganism culture is still alive and well among us..
Salam / Peace
-
what i find interesting is that what lead faithful-jinn to reject the koran lead me towards it. since a kid, i believed in some entity God. but questioned who is God, who created God, why do we need God, why do I need to worship/submit/bow down to God. what makes God so great. is he really omnipotent. so on and on. my biggest problem was religion. so many people have died in the name of religion. didn't God know this would happen. why send all these messengers/prophets? creating different communities. why not speak directly and say ok folks listen up... why all these scriptures - three of them? why asking us to think, ponder, reflect, whatever? why create angels, satan, humans, earth? God did create all things - good and evil. if i was born into a remote tribal society in africa where people ran around naked and worshiped the boogyman and that's all i knew, would i be destined to hell? so does God predetermine ok this one i am going to create and destine to hell and that one i will create and destine to heaven. this one i will give this hardship watching him suffer making him to cry out to me for help and that one will blow his brains out. what kind of sick God is that? this is all some sort of sick game? i could go on and on.....
not like i hadn't thought about things that faithful-jinn thinks. i can even bet i have questioned things and thought about things that even faithful-jinn hasn't. so he can say and think whatever about people like me. i know atheist who fancy themselves as being enlightened looking down at me as a 'blind' follower. whatever.
for me, koran is essential in my understanding of life, self, others, the world that we live in. it is my source of guidance and a healing. it is my manual. it answers my questions. and when i read about beating wives, having sex with slaves, wearing burqa, i didn't come to the same conclusion as faithful-jinn that God is a liar and the Koran is crap. instead, it was a crappy translation done by basically hadith followers.
faithful-jinn and others like him can call me illogical, insane, mind boggling to believe in the koran. they are entitled to their opinions. to each his own.
i still don't get his point though. if he rejected the koran, ok fine but what is his purpose now? what does he hope to accomplish or expecting? faithful-jinn is not going to convince me to reject the koran. there might be those here who will join him in rejecting. there are those who are on the fence post not sure. and then you have those who are firm in their beliefs. know that from reading the koran.
-
Peace jafar.
Do you believe "Qoran" is the word of GOD? How can you choose what suits you then?
You are missing the point. The message is " GOD is more important" The number one priority.
Qoran does not have contradictions. GOD s commands are a sacred duty!. If you follow your conscience, then your conscience is your "idol". We must follow GOD Alone.
That is the message of the Qoran.
Peace. -
Hello @donnyw, you seem to be a very good pupil of late Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD, to whom goes every possible credit for the modern Quran-alone Hadith-free movement, from which so many feed now. As well as the existence of this Forum, too (it is not to say that Quran-alone movement didn't exists in remote past, even at dawn of Islam)
To me, the only tangible proof that the Quran was from God, was the 19-miracle, until I realized that any outstanding Jewish Kabbalist or Gematria expert could produce it as well, not to mention any contemporary computer nerd. But even that 19-miracle was disproved, or shown as fraud, by many threads in this Forum, from Arab-speaking people. Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.
By the way, most of stuff that you write can be read in the Khalifa-inspired sites like
http//www.masjidtucson.org/
https//sites.google.com/site/evidenceofgod/
http//submission.org/#/d/Home.html
http//www.islamrevolution.org/etc, there are many more...
we can't meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.
And yes, you are mistaken, it was Moshe-Rabinu, Moses, or Musa as he is called Arabic in the Quran.
It all started from there, Moses being the very first one to speak to god and hear his voice and receiving the Law (written & oral as they say). But I am not going to go into that now, it would lead us too far, really. But we all know who is God's chosen people, don't we?I am just wondering how God planned to give a chance for redemption to Japanese people for instance? How would they "remember" that their souls swore witnessing that god is one? Did he intend that they also learn Arabic to read the Quran too?
Or, just by being born outside of our little bunch who is studying the Quran IN THIS MANNER, they are condemned not to be redeemed?One of the things that bothers me too much in this Forum, is that there are so many people who interpret god's will or god's word as if they knew it for sure...
But gentlemen, Jewish Rabies are much, much better at that! -
Peace good logic,
It is for some. What Bigmo and ayman brought up can be seen in the refusal to consider an alternate pov, a different and valid way of taking the verses to disallow a problematic conclusion. Besides, it takes time for someone to fully reject something as untrue if you've believed in it completely before. Which leads to two possibilities imo, either the announcement was rash and the person is still on the fence in which case my advise would be to examine thoroughly and with patience, no need to jump the gun and one doesn't have to believe in anything to do that (or even announce such)...or that it's already rejected no matter what based on whatever conclusions and this exercise right here is just subjective validation etc. There is a third possibility, but I don't think that's accurate for now.
Upon the battle of conscience vs "something which people considered as holy" I always sided with my conscience..
I agree with you. Well said. It carries a slight danger with it of accurately discerning the difference in what could be considered conscience and other stuff but that is dealt with by examining and re-examining what one believes in and why etc.Another summary from this discussion are
- There are people who idolize the Quran
- There are people who think that Quran need to be 'defended'.. and by doing so it will please their deity.. and by pleasing their deity they're expecting a reward (in heaven or on this world) from their deity.
- Paganism culture is still alive and well among us..
Agreed. There could be other possibilities for 2 as well. Could also be their form of validation for example.
peace
-
Peace savage-carrot.
No matter which way you look at it , there is only one "truth".
Compromising and pleasing others is not the choice offered in the scripture.
The choice is " GOD" or "others".
If anything conflicts/contradicts with the word of GOD, then it is not the truth, whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant.
Peace.
-
Again I have the impression that the main theme of this thread that @Faithful Jinn posed so well in the beginning, is not grasped.
It is whether the Quran is from God, as a manual for men how to live, the best instruction manual with laws, being from God, since God created men and knows exactly what it is all about, or it is not?
And, if it is direct word from God, and a message for all times and all humanity, how do we know it is so?
-
Besides, it takes time for someone to fully reject something as untrue if you've believed in it completely before......one doesn't have to believe in anything to do that (or even announce such)...o example.
so true. being a former hadith follower, took years and asking God for guidance to reject. you can have issues with somethings in the koran or God. wasn't it prophet lot (correct me if i am wrong) that turned away. so as bigmo says need to be honest to yourself as to why you turn away or why you reject. don't have to understand everything. we never can. we never will. so accept that fact. we are limited.
-
And, if it is direct word from God, and a message for all times and all humanity, how do we know it is so?
either you believe it or you don't. just because you or i don't believe in God doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. just the same doesn't matter if i believe or disbelieve and the reasons if the Koran is the word of God.
-
Peace savage-carrot.
No matter which way you look at it , there is only one "truth".
Compromising and pleasing others is not the choice offered in the scripture.
The choice is " GOD" or "others".
If anything conflicts/contradicts with the word of GOD, then it is not the truth, whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant.
Peace.
I agree with you that there is truth. Not sure why you brought up compromise or pleasing others etc?
so true. being a former hadith follower, took years and asking God for guidance to reject. you can have issues with somethings in the koran or God. wasn't it prophet lot (correct me if i am wrong) that turned away. so as bigmo says need to be honest to yourself as to why you turn away or why you reject. don't have to understand everything. we never can. we never will. so accept that fact. we are limited.
Think it was Yunus you meant? I agree with you, in fact I think that's one of the reasons why we are told to have patience.
Peace
-
Peace all.
I will close with this final reply in this topic. I am not asking anyone to do anything. I believe strongly in " freedom of choice".
I have chosen to accept " Qoran" after solid proof came to me from the Creator. I call to GOD Alone, anyone who wishes to choose "GOD"
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/
7352 Does each one of them want to receive the scripture personally??
762 We created the human from a liquid mixture, from two parents, in order to test him. Thus We made him a hearer and a seer ( and thinker)?
763 We showed him the two paths, then he is either appreciative ( loyal to GOD) or unappreciative ( loyal to ?others?)?
( The choice is yours?)
320 If they argue with you, then say? I have simply submitted myself (and I am loyal) to GOD, I and those who follow me ( in my submission and loyalty to GOD ALONE!)? You shall proclaim to those who received the scripture ( all the religions out there that follow a scripture!) as well as those who did not? Would you submit ( and stay loyal to GOD ALONE!) ? If they submit, then they will be guided, but if they turn away ( stay divided, loyal to their idols) your sole mission is to deliver this message. GOD is seer of all people.?
Peace.
-
Peace all!
-
I was just wondering... whether FaithfulJinn believes in Allah as an entity that has created the creation? I couldn't make out from all these pages, or perhaps it just escaped me. I feel the original issue is whether the quran is or isn't the direct work of God, as claimed by itself. At the same time I feel a doubt about God being or not being from the OP... but it may be just me.. I might be mistaken in this feeling. So how is it?
-
I think that just because one would come to a conclusion that the quran is not from God... it doesn't mean the idea of God is false... those two are not dependent in that way... but many people of other religions or atheists use this kind of logic... i.e. quran has errors, therefore Allah doesn't exist. I also think that one may "leave" the quran during some phase in life, because there are other things that one needs to work on... and then one may perhaps again "find' the quran.. and now in a totally different light... why not?
-
Let's all remember that Allah works in mysterious, bizarre, odd, unexpected and amazing ways... so we may for example gain a belief in Allah through something which is false... that we later realize is false, but we remain believing in Allah since this belief is not dependent on the initial trigger, since one's experience and understanding has now developed above and beyond that initial trigger, that turned out to be false. I'm just saying that we cannot grasp Allah even with our logic. We can however have a desire for truth. If we really have a SINCERE desire for truth, we are usually led to the truth in different ways... but this is of course not a journey that has an end... it is continuously ongoing. That's why it is so dangerous to think that one has THE answer to something. It should be enough to just strive towards greater and greater understanding, more and more, deeper and deeper truth and clear vision of it. We should all crave for truth, whatever it may be. And by the way, it comes in stages. One is mistaken if one thinks that one has finally found IT... THE truth.... no, there are many, many layers of understanding of everything... one layer more truthful than the other... so we should keep striving, but not think that we have reached the end.
-
A very dangerous, or harmful, or misleading, thing is to get a wrong idea of what God is. This can ruin one's entire outlook on life and the world... just due to some faulty concepts in our own mind. I personally used to prefer to use the word 'God' (and still do depending on with whom I'm speaking), but then I started to dislike it coz this word contained so may ideas and concepts that were limiting the concept of the Creator. Perhaps I didn't believe in these "personified" and "materialistic" ideas or concepts, but they were still attached to the word 'God', so I thought it was best not to use the word 'God'. I now use the word 'Allah', especially in my inner 'talk' and communication... and I can do this without having much baggage attached to the word 'Allah' since I'm not from a so called muslim country, society or family. However, sometimes I feel it is almost better to use no word at all (if possible) coz we should not associate anything with Allah (as per the quran, but also as per common sense (mine)). I think that we can get a more accurate picture of Allah, and get a better understanding, and avoid more associations if we instead of trying to think of what Allah is, we can think of what Allah is NOT. This excludes things, and liberates the idea, instead of boxing and framing it. We cannot grasp Allah, so I think it's better to get closer to the truth by realizing what Allah is NOT.
Cheers ;D
-
-
Hello @donnyw, you seem to be a very good pupil of late Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD
Hello Godsubmitter, I dont know Dr Rashad personally and when I read his articles he already passed away, anyhow I dont consider myself his pupil, as true believer we should be only pupil of Allah. Anyhow I admit that his idea bring me to Quran alone, and I believe in 19 miracle and agree with many of his view which I can verify in Quran myself.
To me, the only tangible proof that the Quran was from God, was the 19-miracle, until I realized that any outstanding Jewish Kabbalist or Gematria expert could produce it as well, not to mention any contemporary computer nerd. But even that 19-miracle was disproved, or shown as fraud, by many threads in this Forum, from Arab-speaking people. Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.
To me, there are lot of tangible proof that Quran from God, so even let say there is no miracle of 19, I still find Quran offer many miracles which now some has been proven by science. But even if no proof that I can witness of, I will still follow Quran and believe it from God, as God said in Quran, for real believer they will know this Quran like his own child, so this give us hint that even without any proof or miracle, any real believer will know that Quran contain the truth from God. Probably that just the instinct.
I'm interested to know if you can give me link to Jewish Kabalist or Gematria expert that can produce something similar like miracle of 19, or any book that has distinct numerical or numbering such Quran who has word of month 12 times and word of days 365 times, something like that if you will. I want to learn more.
...Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.
Well, have you forgot the rule of thumb Never believe anything until you check yourself?
I strongly suggest you to check and verify all so called proof and information yourself, as it can be the matter of heaven and hell.
Just my 2cents.Thanks!