Is it shirk to rape women?
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Of course its Shirk , as God doesn't forgive it, not at all.
when our intention is dishonest, saying "how can i take my millions without paying the due shares of a society" , is this not doing according to other then The God, thus making your own whims and desires your god.
what is that if not shirk? hmm
It's rather sad that you still choose to ignore all the proofs of how everything isn't shirk as you claim it to be. Oh well your life, I tried.
I think its important that when we talk about shirk as understood by the Quran we first deal with what shirk is and not what we assume it is. Shirk is an unforgiven shirk and our downplaying it or trying to change what it actually is can cause takfirism to dominate our minds. Shirk the Quran is talking about is radically different than how many of us think it is. Its a lot worse, lot worse, than what we think it is. That is why God does not forgive shirk.
I have done some research into shirk as praticed by mankind.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603937.0
Its not what many think it is. We need to stop equating shirk with everything. There is nothing that equates shirk. That is why God does not forgive shirk. Shirk is a theology and not an act. You don't commit shirk, you believe in shirk.
bravo
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Sorry but;
If any one desires a religion where they can steal, rape, murder, bribe, kill the new born and expect fogiveness for it e.t.c never will it be accepted from them, as it is not part of islam.
385
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).Shirk is all those things- going against the God Nowingly it will never be accepted from you, irrespective of you saying it thousend and one times.
&
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Sorry but;
If any one desires a religion where they can steal, rape, murder, bribe, kill the new born and expect fogiveness for it e.t.c never will it be accepted from them, as it is not part of islam.
385
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).Shirk is all those things- going against the God Nowingly it will never be accepted from you, irrespective of you saying it thousend and one times.
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You really need learn what the meaning of "religion" means. Religion is a belief system. To accept that belief system means you are of that religion, to follow it means you are not sinning. If you break its rules but still believe you are simply sinning. What that verse states is people who go apostrate thus leaving that system all together. If a believer say steals bread, he has sinned but NOT done shirk.
Why do you think one does good deeds? It is to balance out the bad deeds (sins). Shirk erases good deeds.
As states many times before and you still refuse to acknowledge the verses, it shows your refusal to accept that sin is not the same as shirk.
Heck i'm gonna throw one more at you just cause
"431 If you avoid the major sins that you are forbidden against, then We will cancel your existing sins and admit you to a generous entrance."
The very fact that God says he'll automatically forgive you of your non-major sins without repentance is proof that sin is not shirk as shirk is unforgivable once you die without repenting on it and thus by your logic even if one sins minorly they have done shirk thus "unforgivable" is completely thrown out one again using this verse as well.
Combine 431, 243, 2568, 931, and 2542-43 and you can clearly see that sin does not mean shirk and saying other wise is contradictory. If you don't you are quite blind then.
Either ways that is it, I am more or less done here explaining why sin is not shirk. Your refusal to listen and play the "shirk-fearing wahabbi" and create contradiction in the Quran is yours alone.
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Hi red eyes,
even though i can't understand your perception of this,i like your answers.
we can all learn a lot this way.
Thanks and peace to you.
I think its rather clear why REG wrote there. If you go by your beliefs of all sins being shirk then you are causing contradictions in the Quran.
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Hi red eyes,
even though i can't understand your perception of this,i like your answers.
we can all learn a lot this way.
Thanks and peace to you.
Even though I feel that i've clearly explained why sins aren't shirk and if one takes it as such have caused major contradictions in the Quran. I hope someone else can explain it clearer here for you as I seem to be unsuccessful here even though I thought I was clear.
Peace.
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How?
How?
...have you even been reading what REG wrote? If you declare sin same as shirk, it contradicts 243, 2568,and 431. REG fully explained it and you refused to acknowledge if and stick with that contradictory belief.
Bigmo and most others in the thread also agree with the premise that sin is not shirk and Bigmo even put up a link further talking about it.
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You really need learn what the meaning of "religion" means. Religion is a belief system. To accept that belief system means you are of that religion, to follow it means you are not sinning. If you break its rules but still believe you are simply sinning. What that verse states is people who go apostrate thus leaving that system all together. If a believer say steals bread, he has sinned but NOT done shirk.
if a person steals bread , then he isn't following Gods system, if he is show me how? He isn't actualy obeying God, is he?He is obeying some one else,No?
Where on earth has God said you can steal?Why do you think one does good deeds? It is to balance out the bad deeds (sins). Shirk erases good deeds.
You might do good deeds to balance out the bad ones, usualy people do good deeds as that is the righeous way we have been told to adopt.Balancing or erasing is one and the same thing my dear, get a scale and try the two actions are the results very much the same , if not then tell us.
As states many times before and you still refuse to acknowledge the verses, it shows your refusal to accept that sin is not the same as shirk.
Heck i'm gonna throw one more at you just cause
"431 If you avoid the major sins that you are forbidden against, then We will cancel your existing sins and admit you to a generous entrance."
why avoid the major sins, like murder,rape,incest if they are forgivable? They are not forgivable if they are show us where please? Killing one person is like killing the entire mankind
and that is not forgivable, not at all.The very fact that God says he'll automatically forgive you of your non-major sins without repentance is proof that sin is not shirk as shirk is unforgivable once you die without repenting on it and thus by your logic even if one sins minorly they have done shirk thus "unforgivable" is completely thrown out one again using this verse as well.
shirk done relative to God is sin, that is how you write it to my knowledge.
Combine 431, 243, 2568, 931, and 2542-43 and you can clearly see that sin does not mean shirk and saying other wise is contradictory. If you don't you are quite blind then.
the other concept of concubines,unless you believe that is a good thing, disapears if you take the translation of shabir or asaad - great, as who wants their mothers/sisters/daughters to be concubine of any as.. .ole.
Either ways that is it, I am more or less done here explaining why sin is not shirk. Your refusal to listen and play the "shirk-fearing wahabbi" and create contradiction in the Quran is yours alone.
I can't see what contradictions you are talking about , can you elaborate.
Aryan warrior is welcome to answer if he likes. !
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if a person steals bread , then he isn't following Gods system, if he is show me how? He isn't actualy obeying God, is he?He is obeying some one else,No?
Where on earth has God said you can steal?You might do good deeds to balance out the bad ones, usualy people do good deeds as that is the righeous way we have been told to adopt.Balancing or erasing is one and the same thing my dear, get a scale and try the two actions are the results very much the same , if not then tell us.
why avoid the major sins, like murder,rape,incest if they are forgivable? They are not forgivable if they are show us where please? Killing one person is like killing the entire mankind
and that is not forgivable, not at all.shirk done relative to God is sin, that is how you write it to my knowledge.
the other concept of concubines,unless you believe that is a good thing, disapears if you take the translation of shabir or asaad - great, as who wants their mothers/sisters/daughters to be concubine of any as.. .ole.I can't see what contradictions you are talking about , can you elaborate.
Aryan warrior is welcome to answer if he likes. !
I'm gonna reply to this.
First off you clearly are reading the two bad translations of shabbir and assad who are rather fundamental in their translations and REG proved that they are bad translations by showing your word for word translations AND more or less every other English translation out there and showing how they all agreed 243's translation for one proved sin and shirk are different since the word OR is actually there in arabic and in every other translation.
Second not obeying God IS NOT SHIRK. If it was Shirk then 243 would be contradicted as it 243 proved sin and shirk aren't the same and thus meaning its not action based. Therefore not obeying God is sinful but not eternally damn you to hell for sure like Shirk. Only way to do Shirk therefore is based on belief. If you believe in multiple gods like the ancient arabs as stated in the book, if you take an idol as your god like the Jews who worshipped the golden calf, or if you take a man as a god like what some Christians do with Jesus, or if you or anyone else declare something lawful or unlawful when it isn't and believe it as such like what the Priests and Monks of Jews and Christians did or people do themselves.
2568 proves that murder, Zina and even shirk are forgiveable with repentance and as well shows that sin is not shirk by differentianting between murder+zina vs shirk.
If you are just gonna repeat the same baseless arguments again, don't bother replying as you will get these answers again and again.
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I'm gonna reply to this.
First off you clearly are reading the two bad translations of shabbir and assad who are rather fundamental in their translations and REG proved that they are bad translations by showing your word for word translations AND more or less every other English translation out there and showing how they all agreed 243's translation for one proved sin and shirk are different since the word OR is actually there in arabic and in every other translation.
Second not obeying God IS NOT SHIRK. If it was Shirk then 243 would be contradicted as it 243 proved sin and shirk aren't the same and thus meaning its not action based. Therefore not obeying God is sinful but not eternally damn you to hell for sure like Shirk. Only way to do Shirk therefore is based on belief. If you believe in multiple gods like the ancient arabs as stated in the book, if you take an idol as your god like the Jews who worshipped the golden calf, or if you take a man as a god like what some Christians do with Jesus, or if you or anyone else declare something lawful or unlawful when it isn't and believe it as such like what the Priests and Monks of Jews and Christians did or people do themselves.
2568 proves that murder, Zina and even shirk are forgiveable with repentance and as well shows that sin is not shirk by differentianting between murder+zina vs shirk.
If you are just gonna repeat the same baseless arguments again, don't bother replying as you will get these answers again and again.
Just to balance the argument- by using your verse 25.68 and the translation you probably prefer;-
Edip-Layth 2568 Those who do not call on any other god with God, nor do they kill the life that God has made forbidden except in justice, nor do they commit adultery; and whosoever does that will receive the punishment.
Edip-Layth 2569 The retribution will be doubled for him on the day of Judgment and he will abide in it eternally in disgrace.
Edip-Layth 2570 Except for the one who repents and acknowledges and does good work, for those God will replace their sins with good; God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Calling another god besides God and murder and committing adultery, i think rape would be in addultery if not worse, all these three acts carry equal sin but are all forgivable on repentance, yes?
Even if shirk is seperate the sentance is the same in the hereafter for three of the actions-i think.
Taking desires of men as illah the argument can even go further , but we will leave that alone for now.
peace
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Just to balance the argument- by using your verse 25.68 and the translation you probably prefer;-
Edip-Layth 2568 Those who do not call on any other god with God, nor do they kill the life that God has made forbidden except in justice, nor do they commit adultery; and whosoever does that will receive the punishment.
Edip-Layth 2569 The retribution will be doubled for him on the day of Judgment and he will abide in it eternally in disgrace.
Edip-Layth 2570 Except for the one who repents and acknowledges and does good work, for those God will replace their sins with good; God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Calling another god besides God and murder and committing adultery, i think rape would be in addultery if not worse, all these three acts carry equal sin but are all forgivable on repentance, yes?
Even if shirk is seperate the sentance is the same in the hereafter for three of the actions-i think.
Taking desires of men as illah the argument can even go further , but we will leave that alone for now.
peace
No its not saying all three are EQUAL. It just stating that they are the three worst sins without saying they are the same. Proof is this
"God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever sets-up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin." (44
Here I believe God has stated that Shirk is the worst, therefore neither murder nor zina are equal otherwise God would not have stated here how bad shirk is compared to everything else.
Also you seriously can't considering Zina on the same level as murder. Murder has been horribly condemned all over the place as one kill being like killing the entire human race. Zina definitely has not been placed as the same.
The only reason these three are mentioned together is for the fact I believe that they are the three worst things in Islam.
Thus why 2568 is one of the many proofs of WHY a sin of a believer cannot be shirk. Otherwise there would be no mention of murder and zina here as those would automatically fall under murder then and it uses "nor" to separate them out too to show how they are 3 separate things here. Just as in 243.
A man can ONLY take his desires as his god if he deems it lawful or unlawful in contrast to the Quran. For example if I were to believe stealing is lawful while the Quran states it unlawful, then I have committed shirk there. If I know that stealing is unlawful in the Quran but do it anyways, I simply have sinned. Remember that taking something a god means giving it "divinity" and you simply don't give divinity to your sins unless you believe you are a law maker like God.
PS. I prefer the Free-minds translations to Edips in case you were wondering.
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Aryan
Does it say any where in the quran Shirk is the setting up of gods at all?
Of course it does. Plenty of places. And shirk was practiced everywhere as I have showned. Or are you saying the Quran had nothing to say about mankind's claim of who created the universe?
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Of course it does. Plenty of places. And shirk was practiced everywhere as I have showned. Or are you saying the Quran had nothing to say about mankind's claim of who created the universe?
Give me just one ayah where shirk has anything to do with plurality of God please.
I don't think there is such a thing yes
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Give me just one ayah where shirk has anything to do with plurality of God please.
I don't think there is such a thing yes
http//www.adf.org/articles/cosmology/discussing-pagan-theology.html
Norse creation story
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_OBq865VjI&feature=related
Hinduism creation story
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTy49JlgJZE
Ancient Egyptian creation story
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNxZqINCyj4
Ancient Greek creation story
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=75kDb2OqBWI&feature=related
The Incas creation story
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayR4zAV43qk&feature=related
Germanic creation story
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4-hnhqVPmw&feature=related
Shinto creation story.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=koxp_q46z0Q
Aboriginal creation story
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3XoYZgvEH8
Some native American creation story
12.39-40 O two companions of prison, are separate lords better or Allah , the One, the Prevailing?You worship not besides Him except names you have named them, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. Legislation is not but for Allah . He has commanded that you worship not except Him. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.
I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of Allah , and Satan has made their deeds pleasing to them and averted them from way, so they are not guided so they do not prostrate to Allah , who brings forth what is hidden within the heavens and the earth and knows what you conceal and what you declare -Allah - there is no deity except Him, Lord of the Great Throne." 27.24-26
Say, , "Praise be to Allah , and peace upon His servants whom He has chosen. Is Allah better or what they associate with Him?" Is He who created the heavens and the earth and sent down for you rain from the sky, causing to grow thereby gardens of joyful beauty which you could not have grown the trees thereof? Is there a deity with Allah ? , but they are a people who ascribe equals who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah ? , but most of them do not know. Is He who responds to the desperate one when he calls upon Him and removes evil and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is there a deity with Allah ? Little do you remember. Is He who guides you through the darknesses of the land and sea and who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy? Is there a deity with Allah ? High is Allah above whatever they associate with Him. Is He who begins creation and then repeats it and who provides for you from the heaven and earth? Is there a deity with Allah ? Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." 27.59-64
You only worship, besides Allah , idols, and you produce a falsehood. Indeed, those you worship besides Allah do not possess for you provision. So seek from Allah provision and worship Him and be grateful to Him. To Him you will be returned." 29.17
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No its not saying all three are EQUAL. It just stating that they are the three worst sins without saying they are the same. Proof is this
"God does not forgive shirk with Him, and He forgives what is beside that for whom He wills. Whoever does shirk with God has indeed invented a great sin." (44
Here I believe God has stated that Shirk is the worst, therefore neither murder nor zina are equal otherwise God would not have stated here how bad shirk is compared to everything else.
Also you seriously can't considering Zina on the same level as murder. Murder has been horribly condemned all over the place as one kill being like killing the entire human race. Zina definitely has not been placed as the same.
The only reason these three are mentioned together is for the fact I believe that they are the three worst things in Islam.
PS. I prefer the Free-minds translations to Edips in case you were wondering.
Shirk as you have stated is unforgivable yet Allah may forgive miner sins, Yes?
Is murder, Zina, Taking another god with god forgivable according to the above ayah's,No.
If shirk is the only act unforgivable - then why can't it embody three of the things just listed apart from other unforgivable acts aswell.
peace
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Shirk as you have stated is unforgivable yet Allah may forgive miner sins, Yes?
Is murder, Zina, Taking another god with god forgivable according to the above ayah's,No.
If shirk is the only act unforgivable - then why can't it embody three of the things just listed apart from other unforgivable acts aswell.
peace
2568-70 clearly state that murder, Zina and shirk are all forgivable. Only difference is that 448 states shirk is forgivable while in the state of shirk (belief) thus say one dies on it for example.
And seriously, why would anyone in their right minds consider zina being on the same level a murder? obviously there is a difference between them for one.
And its simple language that shirk CANNOT include zina and murder because they are clearly SEPARATED by a nor and in 243 with an or. Its simple arabic and translated to English it remains the same. You trying to pretend they not being there is simply taking your own desires to interpret a verse to whatever you want it to be. As well why even make this topic if you are going to fiercely go against everything with a very twisted interpretation?
Regardless, Bigmo completely shattered what you have been saying for the last while and yet you decide to refuse to answer him? At least read his stuff.
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2568-70 clearly state that murder, Zina and shirk are all forgivable. Only difference is that 448 states shirk is forgivable while in the state of shirk (belief) thus say one dies on it for example.
all of them are forgivable if one repents, but if they die without repenting then they have to pay for it, do you disgaree with that?
And seriously, why would anyone in their right minds consider zina being on the same level a murder? obviously there is a difference between them for one.
we are not looking at their levels br, but whether when God forgives for doing them.
And its simple language that shirk CANNOT include zina and murder because they are clearly SEPARATED by a nor and in 243 with an or. Its simple arabic and translated to English it remains the same. You trying to pretend they not being there is simply taking your own desires to interpret a verse to whatever you want it to be. As well why even make this topic if you are going to fiercely go against everything with a very twisted interpretation?
look again there isn't any shirk in that ayah!
Regardless, Bigmo completely shattered what you have been saying for the last while and yet you decide to refuse to answer him? At least read his stuff.
Sorry we arn't here to shatter anything but learn more of what the quran truly has to say.
but Bigmo can anaswer all this if he feels like it.
peace
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Salaam,
Say "Come let me recite what your Lord has made harrama for you that you should not tushrikoo anything with Him; AND ihsanan to your parents; AND do not taqtuloo your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; AND do not come near alfawahisha, what is evident of it and what is subtle; AND do not taqtuloo the life which God has made harrama, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
Salaam,
Bender