Is it shirk to rape women?
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Well, if you take your hobby so much so that you're "blinded", whether it be drugs, sports, Money, children, you might as well be commiting Shirk/Idol Worship
Note that Shirk/Idol worship is NOT limited to the concievabvle praying to statues
Forms of Idol worship
Types of Idols
Idol worship is not just restricted to worship of any statues or picture frames, etc. The Quran cites many forms of idol worship.
- Calf, statues as idols.
Yet, when we summoned Moses for forty nights, you worshiped the calf in his absence, and turned wicked.*
Before that, we granted Abraham his guidance and understanding, for we were fully aware of him.* He said to his father and his people, "What are these statues to which you are devoting yourselves?" They said, "We found our parents worshiping them."
- Worshipping other gods (is worshipping the devil).
They even worship female gods besides Him; as a matter of fact, they only worship a rebellious devil.
- Jesus as idol.
Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord* and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
- Jinns as idols.
Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.
- Children as idols.
But when He gives them a good baby, they turn His gift into an idol that rivals Him. GOD be exalted, far above any partnership.
- Humans as idols.
The idols you invoke besides GOD are creatures like you. Go ahead and call upon them; let them respond to you, if you are right.
- "Intercessors" as Idols. From the Quran, it is obvious - there is no intercession by anyone on the Day of Judgment.
They worship beside GOD idols that possess no power to harm them or benefit them, and they say, "These are our intercessors at GOD!" Say, "Are you informing GOD of something He does not know in the heavens or the earth?" Be He glorified. He is the Most High; far above needing partners.
- Satan as an idol.
And the devil will say, after the judgment had been issued, "GOD has promised you the truthful promise, and I promised you, but I broke my promise. I had no power over you; I simply invited you, and you accepted my invitation. Therefore, do not blame me, and blame only yourselves. My complaining cannot help you, nor can your complaining help me. I have disbelieved in your idolizing me. The transgressors have incurred a painful retribution."
- Property as an idol.
Cite for them the example of two men we gave one of them two gardens of grapes, surrounded by date palms, and placed other crops between them. Both gardens produced their crops on time, and generously, for we caused a river to run through them. Once, after harvesting, he boastfully told his friend "I am far more prosperous than you, and I command more respect from the people." When he entered his garden, he wronged his soul by saying, "I do not think that this will ever end. "Moreover, I think this is it; I do not think that the Hour (the Hereafter) will ever come to pass. Even if I am returned to my Lord, I will (be clever enough to) possess an even better one over there."
Indeed, his crops were wiped out, and he ended up sorrowful, lamenting what he had spent on it in vain, as his property lay barren. He finally said, "I wish I never set up my property as a god beside my Lord."
- The dead prophets, messengers and saints as idols.
As for the idols they set up beside GOD, they do not create anything; they themselves were created. They are dead, not alive, and they have no idea how or when they will be resurrected.
Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.
- God's servants as idols.
Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode.
The idol need not be an image in front of you.
- Ego as an idol.
This is a common form of idolatry. Most humans, because of their ego cannot bring themselves to worship God, nor can they make their opinion subordinate to God's opinion spelled out in the Quran because of their ego. If we disobey God and His messenger, we are committing idol worship even though there is no image in front of us. This is because we would be giving our opinion more importance than God's words.
Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? Will you be his advocate?
Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?
- Upholding religious Sources other than God's words, as an idol
As a Submitter (Muslim) if we follow a source other than Quran for religious guidance it would be idolatry. The following verse makes it clear that the Quran is God's Testimony. Following any other source is defined as idolatry. Worshipping God is to obey His words only (Quran) and not the words of humans (scholars, religious leaders, mullahs, etc.).
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran* has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
Footnote *619 This verse proclaims the Quran as the only source of religious guidance. Those who uphold additional sources, such as Hadith & Sunna (lies attributed to the Prophet), are defined as idolaters.
- Religious leaders and scholars as idols.
(sub-title) Upholding the Teachings of Religious Leaders, Instead of God's Teachings
They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords,* instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.Footnote *931 If you consult the "Muslim scholars" about worshiping God alone, and upholding the word of God alone, as taught in this proven scripture, they will advise you against it. If you consult the Pope about the identity of Jesus, he will advise you to uphold a trinity. If you obey the "Muslim scholars" whose advice is contrary to God's teachings, or if you take the Pope's advice instead of God's, you have set up these religious leaders as gods instead of God.
- Creating sects in religion is idol worship.
The Quran forbids dividing ourselves into sects. Those who divide into sects are termed as idol worshippers.
You shall submit to Him, reverence Him, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and - whatever you do - do not ever fall into idol worship. (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.
- Dividing believers and providing comfort to those who oppose God and His messengers is practicing idol worship.
There are those who abuse the masjid by practicing idol worship, dividing the believers, and providing comfort to those who oppose GOD and His messenger. They solemnly swear "Our intentions are honorable!" GOD bears witness that they are liars.
Footnote *9107 Any masjid where the practices are not devoted absolutely to God ALONE belongs to Satan, not God. For example, mentioning the names of Abraham, Muhammad, and/or Ali in the Azan and/or the Salat prayers violates God's commandments in 2136, 2285, 384, & 7218. Unfortunately, this is a common idolatrous practice throughout the corrupted Muslim world.
We learn from the Quran that idols cannot judge (4020), idols cannot create anything and are powerless (1316, 464) and idols do not bring us closer to God (393). We learn that idolaters follow conjecture (614 and that idolaters deny idol worship - now & on the Day of Judgment (622-24).
God grants perfect security and happiness for believers who are devoted to Him alone without committing idol worship.
Those who believe, and do not pollute their belief with idol worship, have deserved the perfect security, and they are truly guided.
As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to GOD alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants.
May God protect us from worshiping idols.
Recall that Abraham said, "My Lord, ?. protect me and my children from worshiping idols.
Say, "My Contact Prayers (Salat), my worship practices, my life and my death, are all devoted absolutely to GOD alone, the Lord of the universe.He has no partner. This is what I am commanded to believe, and I am the first to submit." Say, "Shall I seek other than GOD as a lord, when He is the Lord of all things? No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another. Ultimately, you return to your Lord, then He informs you regarding all your disputes."
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/monotheism/idolworship.html
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Well, if you take your hobby so much so that you're "blinded", whether it be drugs, sports, Money, children, you might as well be commiting Shirk/Idol Worship
Note that Shirk/Idol worship is NOT limited to the concievabvle praying to statues
Forms of Idol worship
That is not the Quranic understanding. Idols simply represent deities. Deities cold be ancestors, planets, creatures, nature etc. But its based on theology. Rashad Khalifah has not informed us of what the pagans of Mecca believed. He probably didn't know. But as shown by research into pagan religions its all based on theology.
Ancestor Worship
Devotion to deceased relatives was a mainstay in Norse religion. Ancestors constituted one of the most ancient and widespread types of deity worshipped in the Nordic region. Although most scholarship focuses on the larger community's dedication to more fantastic gods and myths of the Vikings, it is understood that some sort of ancestor worship was probably an element of the private religious practices of the farmstead and village. Often times in addition to showing adoration to the standard Nordic gods, warriors would toast to ?their kinsmen who lay in barrows
Localized Deities
All Nordic peoples recognized a range of spirits dwelling in particular objects and places, such as trees, stones, waterfalls, lakes, houses, and small handmade idols. These localized deities would receive offerings from Cult leaders through the use of Sami seidi altars, which were placed among the forests and mountain sides which would be designated and restricted for certain deities. These altars were seen as the only means in which to confirm receptiveness of the offerings by the Cult leaders.
Localized Deities played a significant role in religiously themed Nordic poems and sagas. In the poem Austrafaravisur (c.1020), the Christian skald Sigvatr complains of not being able to get into to any of the farms around the area of Sweden where he visits because of the diligent celebration of a sacrifice in honor of the elves.
These localized deities also held the capacity of being a part of an intimate and personal relationship with the worshiper. It was very common for an individual to have their own personal guardian spirits who would receive personal offerings and relate to the individual's own dynamics.
Agrarian Deities
As agriculture developed in the Nordic communities so did the use of agricultural deities. As Norse life depended more and more on the factors that affected their crops, they began to dedicate more time to the deities that they believed had control over the weather, seasonal cycle, crops, and other agricultural aspects. Gods such as Freyr were portrayed as having control over the weather and being a commander of fertility amongst the crops.
"Freyr" (1901) by Johannes Gehrts, The god associated with sacral kingship, virility and prosperity, with sunshine and fair weather, and was pictured as a phallic fertility god.
Although anthropomorphic in many respects, what is unique about these gods is the enhanced aspects of sexuality, reproduction, and fertility. Not only do these gods have reign over the crops but they were also believed to have a profound effect on livestock, as they were often displayed with horns or animal fur.A mainstay of Agrarian Deities is the use of magic for regeneration, which opens the door for other uses of magic. The Eddaic poem Voluspa portrays Vanir magic as a powerfully potent force used against the AEsir(Volupsa).
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_religion#Localized_Deities
Thats what the Quran is talking about. Many paganism religions worship spirits and nature and planets. Others worshiped ancestors whose spiritis became divine.
Plus I noticed that rashad did not interpret some of the verses properly.
And his fruits were encompassed , so he began to turn his hands about over what he had spent on it, while it had collapsed upon its trellises, and said, "Oh, I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone."
Rashad seems to think any veneration of some sort is an idol. Well then a Quranist can be accused of idolizing a book called the Quran.
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Peace Bigmo.
Quote Well then a Quranist can be accused of idolizing a book called the Quran.
If you believe the book can save you, or guide you , or protect you etc...Then yes you are idolising " The book".
Remember deep inside you have to "submit , total submission" and only accept that "GOD ALONE" can benefit you or harm you.
Fair enough use the book as an instruction, but deal with the creator only for guidance.
Nothing else! Period.Peace.
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Salaam,
Say "Come let me recite what your Lord has made harrama for you that you should not tushrikoo anything with Him; AND ihsanan to your parents; AND do not taqtuloo your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; AND do not come near alfawahisha, what is evident of it and what is subtle; AND do not taqtuloo the life which God has made harrama, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
Salaam,
BenderNice one.
When we disobey and hurt others , be it parents , our children, someone we don't now as told in the above ayah, are we or arn't we taking up partnership with Allah? if we wern't then we wouldn't be giving ourselves the opurtunity to make decisions which he is entitled to make only.
Only he has the power to kill or decide who will die not anyone else.peace
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Wow!
This post is crazy, shockingly stupid.
Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
Peace O0
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Wow!
This post is crazy, shockingly stupid.
Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
Peace O0
people have been duped into thinking in a way which instead of benefitting humanity has made it into a detriment.
Just look at sura nine , "kill the mushriks where ever you find them" it is right to kill murderrers thugs as that is what person becoming partner of Allah does starts to assert his own laws, he Starts to take over the rights of Allah.
why can't people see such an obviouse thing! I just don't know.
I hope people open there eyes to see what it is all about. pr
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people have been duped into thinking in a way which instead of benefitting humanity has made it into a detriment.
Just look at sura nine , "kill the mushriks where ever you find them" it is right to kill murderrers thugs as that is what person becoming partner of Allah does starts to assert his own laws, he Starts to take over the rights of Allah.
why can't people see such an obviouse thing! I just don't know.
I hope people open there eyes to see what it is all about. pr
I dont like it when people do not quote the verses in its entirety and without the context it appears. that verse you are talking about is about defensive war. You are making it sound as if the Quran is ordering us to kill mushriks. Plus how you define shirk also now means we will be fighting all mankind including monotheist. This is the most defective Quranic interpretation I have heard and can only be maintained by selective quoting of verses and taking them out of context.
This reminds me of the Islam bashers who also take verses of the Quran out of context.
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I dont like it when people do not quote the verses in its entirety and without the context it appears. that verse you are talking about is about defensive war.
of course it is, i agree.
But it shows you fight mushriks/people-breaking Gods laws, if they go too extreme, killing, raping, forcing people out of their homes........
You are making it sound as if the Quran is ordering us to kill mushriks.
we do under certain circumstances.
what do we do with terorists, or murderers rampaging........
Plus how you define shirk also now means we will be fighting all mankind including monotheist.
If you call yourself a monotheist but behave as a murderer , then yes the quran says to fight you.
This is the most defective Quranic interpretation I have heard and can only be maintained by selective quoting of verses and taking them out of context.
No, this is when we take all the verses together and look into them.
This reminds me of the Islam bashers who also take verses of the Quran out of context.
context only matters when looking at individual verses, i think you will agree.
peace
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Nice one.
When we disobey and hurt others , be it parents , our children, someone we don't now as told in the above ayah, are we or arn't we taking up partnership with Allah? if we wern't then we wouldn't be giving ourselves the opurtunity to make decisions which he is entitled to make only.
Only he has the power to kill or decide who will die not anyone else.peace
We are only taking up partners if we end up ignoring the verses 243, 2568, and as well as 6151 which clearly show that God considers shirk and sins as two separate things.
The verse 6151 which you replied to just now further brings up the evidence of why sin is not shirk as it used "AND" to talk about multiple different points with shirk being separate from all those mentioned.
Shirk is belief not simple sins. Bigmo has time after time posted evidence to it too and you refuse to acknowledge much of it and again if you are so hell bent on fighting anyone who doesn't agree with your definition of Shirk, why did you even make this topic asking a question about it?
No, this is when we take all the verses together and look into them.
and yet you choose to ignore 243, 2568, and 6151 that clearly show the difference between shirk and sin and me and REG have explained multiple times up to now.
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of course it is, i agree.
But it shows you fight mushriks/people-breaking Gods laws, if they go too extreme, killing, raping, forcing people out of their homes........
we do under certain circumstances.
what do we do with terorists, or murderers rampaging........
If you call yourself a monotheist but behave as a murderer , then yes the quran says to fight you.
No, this is when we take all the verses together and look into them.
context only matters when looking at individual verses, i think you will agree.
peace
Verse 9.5 is talking about going to war and not capital punishment. Capital punishment has a different set of conditions than going to war. War has prisoners of war and murderers and rapist are not prisoners of war. Plus the Quran does not allow capital punishment except for murder but allows exile from the community as an alternative. You tend to have a very broad interpretation of verse 9.5. What is surprising is you saying that you are taking the Quran as a whole. There are verses that deal with murder and manslaughter and there are verses that deal with war. They are not the same thing. Prisoners of war have two choices, either freedom or ransom of some sort. Murderers are not to be set free.
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Verse 9.5 is talking about going to war and not capital punishment.
war yes but with gangs of cut-throats, who lived and looted caravans and such if you think about history.
Capital punishment has a different set of conditions than going to war. War has prisoners of war and murderers and rapist are not prisoners of war. Plus the Quran does not allow capital punishment except for murder but allows exile from the community as an alternative. You tend to have a very broad interpretation of verse 9.5. What is surprising is you saying that you are taking the Quran as a whole. There are verses that deal with murder and manslaughter and there are verses that deal with war. They are not the same thing. Prisoners of war have two choices, either freedom or ransom of some sort. Murderers are not to be set free.
of course you have different sets of laws , according to who we deal with and when, a single person who has murdered someone - he is still a mushrik as he took life of someone not according to what God has allowed, and so followed his own desire as god.
Sura 91-10,
deals with cut-throats (say) rubbing and killing caravans, and so they are given chances to control their actions or face annihilation.
peace
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We are only taking up partners if we end up ignoring the verses 243, 2568, and as well as 6151 which clearly show that God considers shirk and sins as two separate things.
The verse 6151 which you replied to just now further brings up the evidence of why sin is not shirk as it used "AND" to talk about multiple different points with shirk being separate from all those mentioned.
Shirk is belief not simple sins. Bigmo has time after time posted evidence to it too and you refuse to acknowledge much of it and again if you are so hell bent on fighting anyone who doesn't agree with your definition of Shirk, why did you even make this topic asking a question about it?
and yet you choose to ignore 243, 2568, and 6151 that clearly show the difference between shirk and sin and me and REG have explained multiple times up to now.
Edip-Layth 2568 Those who do not call on any other god with God, nor do they kill the life that God has made forbidden except in justice, nor do they commit adultery; and whosoever does that will receive the punishment.
Edip-Layth 6151 Say, "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your born children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the person which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
Edip-Layth 6152 "Do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a person beyond its capacity. When you speak you must observe justice, even if against a relative. You shall also observe the pledges you made to God. He has enjoined you this so that you may take heed."
Edip-Layth 6153 This is My path, a Straight One. "So follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you so that you may be aware."Okay let me ask you how does one call on God, but not call on any other god? hypno
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Edip-Layth 2568 Those who do not call on any other god with God, nor do they kill the life that God has made forbidden except in justice, nor do they commit adultery; and whosoever does that will receive the punishment.
As far as this goes, it clearly shows shirk is neither murder nor zina as the word "NOR" is used so this verse is useless to your support and infact supports my theory more.
Edip-Layth 6151 Say, "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your born children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the person which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
Edip-Layth 6152 "Do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a person beyond its capacity. When you speak you must observe justice, even if against a relative. You shall also observe the pledges you made to God. He has enjoined you this so that you may take heed."Same here, as Shirk is separate from killing children, being unkind to parents, lewdness, killing people in general, taking the orphans money, and more due to the usage of the word "AND" which separates ALL those crimes from each other including Shirk being a separate point from them due to the word "AND". so this verse is useless to your support and infact supports my theory more.
Edip-Layth 6153 This is My path, a Straight One. "So follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you so that you may be aware."
When one refers to a path, it refers to a faith AKA the deen. The main requirements to be a part of this path are belief which is why it says "other paths" here referring to other religions like Hinduism, Shintoism, or some other faith. You don't make a faith up by simply sinning if you believe and Bigmo wrote an article explaining it better I believe.
Okay let me ask you how does one call on God, but not call on any other god? hypno
First off "calling" on God refers to something like asking God for something, praying, dua and various other task thus "belief" here being to ONE god, if you say do those things for the like a false deity like Vishnu or Thor then you are calling onto other gods, which here would entail belief of there being multiple gods, thus shirk. Calling is literally as the word states it as in you talk to God. Thus if you call onto God alone, then you are not calling on to any god.
Sin/Transgressing is not shirk. AS i've stated VARIOUS VARIOUS TIMES and this is seriously tiring me out on how much I am repeating myself cause you refuse to acknowledge the problems within your theory that 243, 2568, as well as 6151 clearly show that God considers shirk and sins as two separate things.
Realize that probably EVERY human sins at one point in their life and that would probably include yourself, so by the logic pretty much EVERYONE is destined to go to hell and that sure isn't the case which shows how faulty what you say is.
You keep saying that "oh but disobeying God means that we are associating ourselves next to God" well that is nothing but rubbish Wahabbi (and not even all wahabbis I believe) belief which they ignore the verses that clearly state that shirk and sin are separate things and say they are the same.
And again why even start a topic up asking our opinions when you fiercely go against them like this?
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Thanks for the reply-i wasn't sure i was going to get one though!
First off "calling" on God refers to something like asking God for something, praying, dua and various other task thus "belief" here being to ONE god, if you say do those things for the like a false deity like Vishnu or Thor then you are calling onto other gods, which here would entail belief of there being multiple gods, thus shirk. Calling is literally as the word states it as in you talk to God. Thus if you call onto God alone, then you are not calling on to any god.
But doesn't the quran say he knows our innermost thoughts/ our intentions even, so what is the point ......of calling on anything.
Br. when we pick up a knife to go and stab someone, does God know this? of course he does, and whose course have we chosen? the devil, we have in fact called on the devil and dared to stand on par with God allmighty.He said do not kill and we are now going to do this - taking on another god instead of our only God - shirk.
So even though we havn't called on anything verbally, yet we have called on some one through our very action.
Verbal calling isn't what matters , but our actions as and that is all what those ayah's you are stating mean.
Call on God , is he our slave that we can command him- and he will do our bidding? surely not. But if we call on the devil through our actions or what he is named , then you can bet your life on it that Allah knows that you are calling on other then himself.
To call on God best thing is get up and do things with his laws as the criteria and he will answer , the results we get are his answer.
Realize that probably EVERY human sins at one point in their life and that would probably include yourself, so by the logic pretty much EVERYONE is destined to go to hell and that sure isn't the case which shows how faulty what you say is.
No not necessarily, if our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds we win.
You keep saying that "oh but disobeying God means that we are associating ourselves next to God" well that is nothing but rubbish Wahabbi (and not even all wahabbis I believe) belief which they ignore the verses that clearly state that shirk and sin are separate things and say they are the same.
Shirk is when ever you call on other then the allmighty , but he will forgive that which has miner consequences= i think.
And again why even start a topic up asking our opinions when you fiercely go against them like this?
After 12 years of researching the quran - you do form some opinions from what you have gethered surely )
2568 Those who do not call on any other god with God, and not kill the life that God has made forbidden except in justice, and not commit adultery; and whosoever does that will receive the punishment.
If you can see it all the ayah's are like this , calling on other then our God would be doing the things mentioned opposite to what is stated.
But if you think all this is crap, no harm done.
peace
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Thanks for the reply-i wasn't sure i was going to get one though!
But doesn't the quran say he knows our innermost thoughts/ our intentions even, so what is the point ......of calling on anything.That's like saying why do we even pray? why do we ask for stuff? Why do we repent? Sure God knows but we are still required to talk to Him for those things and more.
Br. when we pick up a knife to go and stab someone, does God know this? of course he does, and whose course have we chosen? the devil, we have in fact called on the devil and dared to stand on par with God allmighty.He said do not kill and we are now going to do this - taking on another god instead of our only God - shirk.
So even though we havn't called on anything verbally, yet we have called on some one through our very action.
Verbal calling isn't what matters , but our actions as and that is all what those ayah's you are stating mean.Call on God , is he our slave that we can command him- and he will do our bidding? surely not. But if we call on the devil through our actions or what he is named , then you can bet your life on it that Allah knows that you are calling on other then himself.
To call on God best thing is get up and do things with his laws as the criteria and he will answer , the results we get are his answer.
If that is your way of twisting things then you are really are no different than some of those wahabbis who like to throw in twists and turns just to prove their point. They always try to twist many things to be shirk without any real proof. You say that we sinning is shirk because we are following the "devils path", well guess what, that is NOT shirk. Repeatedly claiming that sinning automatically means we are worshipsers of the devil as a god is like when George W. Bush use to claim that if we aren't siding with him, we are with the terrorist when that clearly wasn't the case. Thus you really aren't doing nothing but a wahabbi twist on the meaning of shirk without any real proof. You keep claiming Shirk is action based and not belief based yet verses like 2568, 931, and 243 show that sins are different from shirk and you refuse to acknowledge such verses. The clear examples of shirk we have always been given in the Quran have been belief based like when the Jews worshipped the Golden Calf, or when the Jews and Christians take their Priests and Monks as their lord cause they make things halal and haram however they wish, or the many pagans who believe there are multiple gods. These are what have always been stated not sins like stealing or whatnot, those have all been separated from Shirk using words like "nor" "and" "Or" yet you refuse to acknowledge them.
No not necessarily, if our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds we win.
Yet you claim sins are shirk, meaning that all our good deeds are wiped each time we sins thus it being impossible to outweigh out bad deeds. That is how faulty your theory is.
Shirk is when ever you call on other then the allmighty , but he will forgive that which has miner consequences= i think.
I really have the theory right now that when you heard "call" you really think it was action based when call obviously means reaching out to God in terms of belief.
After 12 years of researching the quran - you do form some opinions from what you have gethered surely2568 Those who do not call on any other god with God, and not kill the life that God has made forbidden except in justice, and not commit adultery; and whosoever does that will receive the punishment.
If you can see it all the ayah's are like this , calling on other then our God would be doing the things mentioned opposite to what is stated.
But if you think all this is crap, no harm done.
peace
Calling on God is literally belief based. If I call Thor for example, that would be shirk because that means I believe him and am asking him for help, but no I do not believe him thus I only call God.
Regardless while I don't like saying it, yet I do see what you are saying as no good as you really don't have any evidence while I have thrown all the Quranic evidence I can at you and you refuse to try to disprove counter it and instead throw a bunch of wahabbi like arguments back that have no Quranic proof to them whatsoever. Sure we are not to sin, but really God won't treat those are shirk as long as we know the sin we are doing is unlawful and haven't made ourselves law makers like Him by turning it lawful or vice versa.
Honestly I am getting rather sick and tired of going over the same damn thing over and over and over. I am gonna give this topic 1 or two more replies before I quit it as there really is no point if one isn't willing to acknowledge clear evidence.
Peace
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That's like saying why do we even pray? why do we ask for stuff? Why do we repent? Sure God knows but we are still required to talk to Him for those things and more.
poor people who are dumn, they miss out on a lot then! come on they have the same rights as any individual, and God is there for them same as anybody else.
Yet you claim sins are shirk, meaning that all our good deeds are wiped each time we sins thus it being impossible to outweigh out bad deeds. That is how faulty your theory is.
i don't know if this is in the quran , if it is Br, please tell me where is it, as this would set the balance in your favour- i think.
Calling on God is literally belief based. If I call Thor for example, that would be shirk because that means I believe him and am asking him for help, but no I do not believe him thus I only call God.
NOW GOING BY YOUR PERSPECTIVE;
Irrespective who you call to thor ,Allah,God,Brahma......They arn't there Accept Allah and you can call to him with any name but the best of names you know. So what would be the point calling to anybody else, and even Allah doesn't need a verbal calling and you know why.Honestly I am getting rather sick and tired of going over the same damn thing over and over and over. I am gonna give this topic 1 or two more replies before I quit it as there really is no point if one isn't willing to acknowledge clear evidence.
I understand. peace
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i don't know if this is in the quran , if it is Br, please tell me where is it, as this would set the balance in your favour- i think.
688 "Such is the guidance of God, He guides with it whom He pleases of His servants. And if they set up partners, then all that they had worked would fall away from them."
3965 "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your work, and you will be of the losers."
NOW GOING BY YOUR PERSPECTIVE;
Irrespective who you call to thor ,Allah,God,Brahma......They arn't there Accept Allah and you can call to him with any name but the best of names you know. So what would be the point calling to anybody else, and even Allah doesn't need a verbal calling and you know why.Sure He does, why else are we asked to pray ritually, specifically with a tone that is neither too loud nor too quiet.
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688 "Such is the guidance of God, He guides with it whom He pleases of His servants. And if they set up partners, then all that they had worked would fall away from them."
3965 "And He has inspired to you and to those before you, that if you set up partners, He will nullify all your work, and you will be of the losers."
Thanks for that but there is no ?all? in the original ayah, and kanoo is being misused ? I think.
Edip-Layth 996 On that day, the people will be brought out in throngs to be shown their works.
Edip-Layth 997 So whoever does an atom?s weight of good will see it.
Edip-Layth 998 Whoever does an atom?s weight of evil will see it.3953-55 Say "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you after that ye shall not be helped. And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you - of a sudden while ye perceive not!
Sure He does, why else are we asked to pray ritually, specifically with a tone that is neither too loud nor too quiet.
where does it exclude the dumb person?
I can tell you one thing if the quran where translated correctly we wouldn't have the flaw.
But saying that the traditional prayer , although not in the quran at all, wasn't bad - i used to do it but it is for me a waste of time and brain power.
Just one last note , if we keep doing what we have been doing then bet your life on it , our children and their children will keep getting what we have been getting for the 100's of years, and just look at our condition in the world.
hypno
As we aren?t making any headway we should give up this dabate, you are right in your way and me in mine.
good research tools;
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=39&verse=65http//www.openburhan.com/
peace
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Thanks for that but there is no ?all? in the original ayah, and kanoo is being misused ? I think.
Edip-Layth 996 On that day, the people will be brought out in throngs to be shown their works.
Edip-Layth 997 So whoever does an atom?s weight of good will see it.
Edip-Layth 998 Whoever does an atom?s weight of evil will see it.3953-55 Say "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you after that ye shall not be helped. And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you - of a sudden while ye perceive not!
Facepalm It is pretty damn clear that even without the word all it clearly states that your work will be for nothing that it means ALL of your work is for nothing. Again it looks almost like you are twisting a verse to no tomorrow to match your argument. That is like saying to someone "I won't accept your money" obviously everyone knows that means ALL of their money. Amongst EVERYONE who reads these verses it has also meant just that, so there normally is no dispute and all have agreed shirk means the destruction of your good deeds.
The verse you list doesn't mean that God will accept the good deeds of the mushirks. He can still show it to them but he won't accept it.
where does it exclude the dumb person?
I can tell you one thing if the quran where translated correctly we wouldn't have the flaw.
But saying that the traditional prayer , although not in the quran at all, wasn't bad - i used to do it but it is for me a waste of time and brain power.
I assume by "dumb person" here you are referring to those unable to speak. Challenged or disabled would be a better term to use for future reference. Anyways, I would think they are a leeway exception as they obviously can't do it. But understand there is that verse that states for ritual prayer how one must speak it with a middle tone voice which shows that is the case.
So your arguments fall flat and you blame it on bad translation? Yet you were the one who originally presented pretty bad translations where they dropped words like "or" and rewrote verses in whatever way they wanted.
As we aren?t making any headway we should give up this dabate, you are right in your way and me in mine.
good research tools;
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=39&verse=65http//www.openburhan.com/
peace
I don't mean to be offensive, but I say you are wrong regardless as your arguments are quite flawed and I do use Corpus Quran just so you know.
Well that it I am done here. I have presented all my arguments and stated all I can. If you choose to ignore then so be it. I am a busy man and I can't be on here all the time to argue, especially in one that is pointless at this point.
Peace and don't expect me to reply.
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Does this apply to most people?
Edip-Layth Majority of People are Unappreciative 12103 Most people will not acknowledge, even if you wish eagerly.
Edip-Layth 12104 Though you do not ask them for a wage for it; it is but a reminder to the worlds.
Edip-Layth 12105 How many a sign in the heavens and the earth do they pass by, while they are turning away from it.
Edip-Layth 12106 MOST OF THEM WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE GOD WITHOUT SETTING UP PARTNERS. hmm