Why do you reject hadiths
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Salaam,
As per my current understanding AlKitaab is the textversion of AlQuran.
The written copy of what is in your hands is AlKitaab and what you hear when someone recite it is AlQuran.
Please check 1037I totally agree handshake
I have at the moment an idea what AlTawraat and AlIndzjeel an AlZabour etc are, but still not 100% sure.Salaam,
BenderSalaam, Bender, I am not sure as to the full import of what you say. Please consider
17.(31-39)
Also many others.
I think the Qur'an is the specific revelation to rasul Muhammad, be it recited or written. In all revelations there is al-kitab walhikma, which is perfectly logical since all revelations are the same, the eternal, universal revelation. The reason of the Qur'an, at least one of them, is what is stated, to correct previous deviations and falsehoods and corruptions, and that is why when any of those purported previous revelations is considered it must be subjected completely to the Qur'an and NEVER AND IN NO WAY the other way around.
Salaam
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Salaam, Bender, I am not sure as to the full import of what you say. Please consider
17.(31-39)
Also many others.
I think the Qur'an is the specific revelation to rasul Muhammad, be it recited or written. In all revelations there is al-kitab walhikma, which is perfectly logical since all revelations are the same, the eternal, universal revelation. The reason of the Qur'an, at least one of them, is what is stated, to correct previous deviations and falsehoods and corruptions, and that is why when any of those purported previous revelations is considered it must be subjected completely to the Qur'an and NEVER AND IN NO WAY the other way around.
Salaam
"when any of those purported previous revelations is considered it must be subjected completely to the Qur'an and NEVER AND IN NO WAY the other way around."
Thats understandable from a Quranist point of view. But that is not what the Quran necessarily says. The Quran sees these scriptures as equals and each is sufficient for salvation. And if you believe in one you believe in all of them since they are the same faith. But they are different communities.
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The Torah and Gospel are not refered in the Quran as God's word but God's book. Jesus was the word of God as he had the holy spirit with him. His hadith was a revelation. Moses meanwhile talked to God while the others did not. Muhammad was gieven the word of God as scripture.
So the Torah and Gospel as talked about in the Quran is the same as the ones we had today. No Quran like scriptures came to other prophets like Muhammad and the Quran never claimed that it did. But I think many Quranist think that was the case and since they see the previous scriptures as different from the Quran they assume it has been changed from its original. There is no original, it always was like that.
When Jesus confirmed the Old Testament in the Gospel the Old Testament was already compiled as we have it today. Then the Quran came to confirm the Old and New Testament. I do not understand what is mean by saying the scriptures talked about in the Quran are not the ones we have today. Than what scriptures is the Quran talking about?
I certainly cannot certify that those purported scriptures you talk about are authentic, I am sure they are not for many reasons, of content of transmission... Too long to list now, since it is an experience that I have acquired for may years. There is no way I can take that hetergenous lot as authentic, in the same way that however much you certify those things to Bukhari and Muslim and ask in what way what we have today is different from those of the date of Bukahri and Muslims, the fact is that I do not have any means of tracing it to its pointed origin except by content and comparison with the Qur'an and even then I will not know, because it may come from good people, spiritually gifted and saintly people but not the Prophet and be in itself good. There is no prohibition on good things coming from anybody.
I sincerely do not see how the torah or the gospelS are any better guranteed that hadiths, even the best hadidths.
I am sorry to say but as a previous catholic and very sympathetic to real christians I can understand that sentimental attachment to christian scriptures may be very strong, and there is good in them, but as to guarantee, zero.
To every people in the world, not just jews and Christians, there has been true revelation, as the Qur'an says, but what has been handed down may be not whole. I do not see any other revelations are less worth considering than the Bible, we may get inspiration and wisdom from any of them, just have the Qur'an as a contrast of what is true and what is not. The Torah or the GospelS have no more gurantee than the hadith or any other religious scripture if we do nto use the Qur'an and our own sense of veracity to keep true from false and sound from not sound.
Salaam
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"when any of those purported previous revelations is considered it must be subjected completely to the Qur'an and NEVER AND IN NO WAY the other way around."
Thats understandable from a Quranist point of view. But that is not what the Quran necessarily says. The Quran sees these scriptures as equals and each is sufficient for salvation. And if you believe in one you believe in all of them since they are the same faith. But they are different communities.
Yes, God, in the Qur'an says to every people have been sent his messengers, so every peopla has received sufficient revelations to be saved, that is completely different from asserting that those revelations have been kept in their totality exactly as they were revealed, uncorrupted, undeviated, unadded to...
I think you are mixing up what was in fact revealed or transmitted from God and what is available. You cannot say that four narrations called gospels are the Inyil. Or you can say it, but I cannot help to think that you are wrong. The gospels hold beautiful parables, the tenets of christianity themselves are in themselves beautifyl and moving parables, but the text of the four gospels, while holding great gems of morality, wisdom and spirituality are not the inyil, not the whole, unadded to, virgin, inyil. And that can be said of most revelations. That can be said even of the Qur'an's entourage, which has been crowded with so much interpretation, that now we have to look very hard to the Qur'an itself to dig up the truth from its words and liberate ourselves of all the adherences to it that in fact are an assault at its integrity.
But we still have the text of the Qur'an, whereas we do not have texts of other things to go by.
Salaam
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Yes, God, in the Qur'an says to every people have been sent his messengers, so every peopla has received sufficient revelations to be saved, that is completely different from asserting that those revelations have been kept in their totality exactly as they were revealed, uncorrupted, undeviated, unadded to...
I think you are mixing up what was in fact revealed or transmitted from God and what is available. You cannot say that four narrations called gospels are the Inyil. Or you can say it, but I cannot help to think that you are wrong. The gospels hold beautiful parables, the tenets of christianity themselves are in themselves beautifyl and moving parables, but the text of the four gospels, while holding great gems of morality, wisdom and spirituality are not the inyil, not the whole, unadded to, virgin, inyil. And that can be said of most revelations. That can be said even of the Qur'an's entourage, which has been crowded with so much interpretation, that now we have to look very hard to the Qur'an itself to dig up the truth from its words and liberate ourselves of all the adherences to it that in fact are an assault at its integrity.
But we still have the text of the Qur'an, whereas we do not have texts of other things to go by.
Salaam
Yeah but I am talking about how the QURAN understands the previous scriptures and not how me or you do. Which is why I think you based your argument that the Quran is refering to some other scriptures. What other scriptures are you talking about? There are no other Torah or Gospel. The Torah and Gospel the Quran is talking about is the same scriptures we have with us today.
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I agree with the Quran being a revelation, which is what I've already said previously. I believe Mohammed received the Quran as a light and a guidance, because that's what the Message says. Huruf explained my view quite well, actually.
But I agree with Bigmo. I don't believe the Torah or even the Gospel is totally wrong or totally false or at all like the hadiths. There are too many similarities with the Quran for those Scriptures to be entirely wrong in the forms they're in now. Plus, I believe God would have told us to abandon them, instead of correcting what He wanted to correct and guiding us to a better understanding.
Repeatedly, God tells us in the Quran that this Message confirms what came before and that He is consistent in what he sends down to mankind. Also, when it comes to Moses, over and over, the Quran admonishes us to "remember"...it's an oft-repeated instruction when Moses' name comes up. If everything given to Moses is gone now, then it would have been gone when the Quran was revealed...so God would have given us the instruction to forget what we've heard about Moses, here's the real story coming at you.
If you summarily toss out the Torah and the Gospel (that being the core message of Jesus and not the books the Nicene Council sanctioned and published), then you are tossing out what the Quran says we should do in regards to believing in the sum total of what God has sent down to mankind. The Message in the Quran is God's...the Torah was written down by God on tablets...the Gospel was alive and demonstrated in Jesus and his miracles to further God's teachings and give compassion to God's Laws.
To place Mohammed above other prophets and the revelation he was given above all others is a direct violation of what the Quran tells us to do. We are to make no distinction between the prophets. Prophet Mohammed gets the last word from God but not the only word, and God doesn't tell us, "Now that this Quran has come to you, ignore everything else." No, He tells us to use our mind, to think and consider, to use the Quran as a Guide and a Mercy so that we don't get tripped up by the inaccuracies and distortions.
Peace and thanks for the discussion. Very interesting views and thoughts emerging.
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Yeah but I am talking about how the QURAN understands the previous scriptures and not how me or you do. Which is why I think you based your argument that the Quran is refering to some other scriptures. What other scriptures are you talking about? There are no other Torah or Gospel. The Torah and Gospel the Quran is talking about is the same scriptures we have with us today.
That you say, but the Qur'an does not say Torah or Gospel it says tawra e injil. You say that those are the same thing that we have today known as tawrah or Gospel. That I do not think so, and the Qur'an does not say, unless you call the injil the four gospels or whatever you want to call also gospels from the number of those called apocrifous gospels that are around.
Sorry, as far sas I am concerned to want to make the same thing the tawrat the Qur'an talks about or the Injil as the Torah and the gospels as far as I am concerned is a hopeless quest.
No ill meaning or feelings, I see it that way and indeed without the shadow of a doubt. I will just mention that the text of the OT we have today is not the original "hebrew", but a translation to "hebrew" fromt he greek.
Salaam
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I agree with the Quran being a revelation, which is what I've already said previously. I believe Mohammed received the Quran as a light and a guidance, because that's what the Message says. Huruf explained my view quite well, actually.
But I agree with Bigmo. I don't believe the Torah or even the Gospel is totally wrong or totally false or at all like the hadiths. There are too many similarities with the Quran for those Scriptures to be entirely wrong in the forms they're in now. Plus, I believe God would have told us to abandon them, instead of correcting what He wanted to correct and guiding us to a better understanding.
Repeatedly, God tells us in the Quran that this Message confirms what came before and that He is consistent in what he sends down to mankind. Also, when it comes to Moses, over and over, the Quran admonishes us to "remember"...it's an oft-repeated instruction when Moses' name comes up. If everything given to Moses is gone now, then it would have been gone when the Quran was revealed...so God would have given us the instruction to forget what we've heard about Moses, here's the real story coming at you.
If you summarily toss out the Torah and the Gospel (that being the core message of Jesus and not the books the Nicene Council sanctioned and published), then you are tossing out what the Quran says we should do in regards to believing in the sum total of what God has sent down to mankind. The Message in the Quran is God's...the Torah was written down by God on tablets...the Gospel was alive and demonstrated in Jesus and his miracles to further God's teachings and give compassion to God's Laws.
To place Mohammed above other prophets and the revelation he was given above all others is a direct violation of what the Quran tells us to do. We are to make no distinction between the prophets. Prophet Mohammed gets the last word from God but not the only word, and God doesn't tell us, "Now that this Quran has come to you, ignore everything else." No, He tells us to use our mind, to think and consider, to use the Quran as a Guide and a Mercy so that we don't get tripped up by the inaccuracies and distortions.
Peace and thanks for the discussion. Very interesting views and thoughts emerging.
I must be writing chinese. ?Where have I said the the who9le of the bible is rubbish or there is nothing in it worthwhile. On the other hand you say that ALL hadith are false. Well the thing is that we do not know. Teh same as with the bible, we do not know where true stuff begins and where it ends, and THEREFORE WE MUST JUDGE BY THE CONTENT. ?Where have I said that there is nothing worthwhile in the gospels or the torah. I have not said that. I have said thst they are not unadulterated revelation, bec ause it is obvious there are things that are not revealed and, what is more, there is no pretending in that the Qur'an confirms what has been revealed before to everybody, sand not just the Injil and the Torah, but that God sent messengers everywhere, but that people deiate sand therefore the Qur'an corrects everything. Therefore WE ARE WARNED.
Let me copy part of my previous message, but that seems not to have been understood
"The gospels hold beautiful parables, the tenets of christianity themselves are in themselves beautifyl and moving parables, but the text of the four gospels, while holding great gems of morality, wisdom and spirituality are not the inyil, not the whole, unadded to, virgin, inyil. "
Where am I saying that there is no truth in it. If there is wisdom there must be truth, or not? On the other hand are those the only books in the world worthwhile considering as bearers of light, of some light? There are many. And there are many hadiths full of light too. So on that I insist. The bible, the whole of it is hadith, that is undistinguishable mixture of inspired and non inspired words, except by content. Only content can tell us whether it is gold or rubbish. As I said, there is plenty of gold in the gospels and other books of the bible, but it is a big temerity to certify the whole lot, just as it is a gross temerity to certify all hadith. Again, only content.
Salaam
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That you say, but the Qur'an does not say Torah or Gospel it says tawra e injil. You say that those are the same thing that we have today known as tawrah or Gospel. That I do not think so, and the Qur'an does not say, unless you call the injil the four gospels or whatever you want to call also gospels from the number of those called apocrifous gospels that are around.
Sorry, as far sas I am concerned to want to make the same thing the tawrat the Qur'an talks about or the Injil as the Torah and the gospels as far as I am concerned is a hopeless quest.
No ill meaning or feelings, I see it that way and indeed without the shadow of a doubt. I will just mention that the text of the OT we have today is not the original "hebrew", but a translation to "hebrew" fromt he greek.
Salaam
The Torah, Tawrat, The Law of Moses, or whatever you wish to call it was in Hebrew and that is the first 5 books of the OT ONLY, that is the Torah God refers to in Quran that He gave The Law to Moses, in Hebrew as Moses was Hebrew, not Greek.
some 'other additions' that are NOT the Torah or any part of it from God MAY have been in Greek, but THE Torah was and still is in Hebrew.
Quran places much more emphasis on the things and people from the Torah than the Injeel (Arabic) or Gospel (English) because the Injeel of Jesus is most likely one of the books (if there was such a 'book' that the Nicene Council dumped in 325ad along with all the other 'gospels according to..' by the people that were actually with Jesus at the time he was alive. Those 'gospels according to ' people like Thomas and Mary Magdalene are proof that Jesus never said he was God or the begotten son in the sense Christians are led to believe and proved he was a MAN with a message, the 'Church' didn't like that..........Paul made Christianity what it is today. The main (or maybe the only ) point that Quran does mention is the son of God thing, the rest is about Torah and the prophets of that because we do still have that and did in the early 700s when Quran was revealed.
My belief at this point in my studies is that the Injeel/Gospel was a 'teaching' by Jesus and was written by others as 'Gospel according to....' but those people with a true account of the teaching would be people who knew him and were his disciples, and there were/are those books but they are not in the NT as we now know it due to 325ad and Constantine's little reshuffle.
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The Torah, Tawrat, The Law of Moses, or whatever you wish to call it was in Hebrew and that is the first 5 books of the OT ONLY, that is the Torah God refers to in Quran that He gave The Law to Moses, in Hebrew as Moses was Hebrew, not Greek.
some 'other additions' that are NOT the Torah or any part of it from God MAY have been in Greek, but THE Torah was and still is in Hebrew.
Quran places much more emphasis on the things and people from the Torah than the Injeel (Arabic) or Gospel (English) because the Injeel of Jesus is most likely one of the books (if there was such a 'book' that the Nicene Council dumped in 325ad along with all the other 'gospels according to..' by the people that were actually with Jesus at the time he was alive. Those 'gospels according to ' people like Thomas and Mary Magdalene are proof that Jesus never said he was God or the begotten son in the sense Christians are led to believe and proved he was a MAN with a message, the 'Church' didn't like that..........Paul made Christianity what it is today. The main (or maybe the only ) point that Quran does mention is the son of God thing, the rest is about Torah and the prophets of that because we do still have that and did in the early 700s when Quran was revealed.
My belief at this point in my studies is that the Injeel/Gospel was a 'teaching' by Jesus and was written by others as 'Gospel according to....' but those people with a true account of the teaching would be people who knew him and were his disciples, and there were/are those books but they are not in the NT as we now know it due to 325ad and Constantine's little reshuffle.
Salaam,
Do you believe that this includes the Book of Barnabus that so many others talk about?
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Salaam,
Do you believe that this includes the Book of Barnabus that so many others talk about?
Salam peace Barnabas wasn't one of the 12 disciples of Jesus, according to the books of Paul (Saul) he was the one that brought Paul to the disciples after his supposed vision........according to Paul. There were 12 that Jesus chose, there were others that were declared or claimed to be, Barnabas and Paul were of those.
I read the book of Barnabas years ago and it was interesting!
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Salam peace Barnabas wasn't one of the 12 disciples of Jesus, according to the books of Paul (Saul) he was the one that brought Paul to the disciples after his supposed vision........according to Paul. There were 12 that Jesus chose, there were others that were declared or claimed to be, Barnabas and Paul were of those.
I read the book of Barnabas years ago and it was interesting!
Thank you for clarifying that...I hadn't gotten that far in my study of the Bible when I converted to Islam. I myself have read pieces of it...not sure what to make of it.
Peace,
Amina
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The original "hebrew of the OT was lost many centuries ago, and only a greek copy of it was kept. The PRESENT "hebrew" version of it is a translation from the greek that was preserved.
Salaam
Do you have any reference for your own assertion or is it just conjecture?
Salaam
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Peace huruf.
Are you conversing wit yourself or am I misunderstanding your posts?
Peace.
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Peace huruf.
Are you conversing wit yourself or am I misunderstanding your posts?
Peace.
No, my God I wouldn't converse with myself, how boring! My mistake I was answering message n? 244 of Ayisha, and I did the wrong quote.
Sorry for the mistake. D
Salaam
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Do you have any reference for your own assertion or is it just conjecture?
Salaam
It is rude to answer a question with a question without actually answering the question peace
But as we are playing I'll show you mine if you show me yours, yes the first part of my post is pretty much judaism 101, Moses was Hebrew so the Torah was in Hebrew coz God is clever and that's why He also did that amazing feat again and gave Quran in Arabic, coz Muhammed spoke Arabic....clever huh? yay
The Hebrew Torah was translated into Greek though for inclusion into the Alexandria Library.
The second part of my post was from Quran as if you look you will see more references to Torah characters than the NT characters..........other parts are what I've studied over the years about the Nicene Creed and the lost books and blah blah........... feel free to refute my logic with your own.
so now your turn bravo
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You just state what you believe, but no reference.
You are wrong that I was being rude. I was just trying to make you think from where you know what you think you know, because that way you might get the wiser even better than by asking me.
As it happens you just laugh at it. That's ok. But I did not take the question as a joke and I do not want to pursue it in that line.
There is plenty of information in internet if you are interested and actually anybody who knows anything about the bible knows that the extant hebrew version comes originally from a greek translation called septuagint. It is no secret nor a mystery nor something that is ever so rare that it was as if I was trying to sell you o green dog. What you choose to believe or not is your concern not mine.
Salaam
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Bigmo...ummm...I think you misread something. I was actually agreeing with what you had said, so I'm not sure what you got in a huff about. Similar views, stated slightly different ways, none of which was written in Chinese.
As for the Torah having to be translated from Greek back into Hebrew, that is fairly well known. There are writings (as in instructional type things) by Jewish scholars that mention there being certain problems with the translation, where they feel verses may have been transcribed out of order and similar types of mistakes.
I've read the Barnabas version, too, but I believe some questions have been raised about its authenticity based on syntax and language used, i.e., the language of the original manuscript "discovered" supposedly doesn't fit the time period. However, I"m not stating that as a fact since I only vaguely remember reading something like that.
huruf...I apologize. I missed your earlier post somehow about the "you" being clearer in meaning in Arabic than in English. Thank you for that clarification. I broached this subject because it was something I had been considering, and it seemed like the kind of topic that people on this site would offer insights about in ways I'd not considered.
Peace.