Right hand possesses in Quran
-
I simply asked you to refer to my reply where I have given link to online Arabic resource http//www.corpus.quran.com . If you can bring valid arabic text that supports your point I will be happy to see that.
I'm trying to say that if corpus wanted to, they could have rendered aymanukum as oaths. It's their translation despite being able to make other translations but it doesn't mean its the right one.
What you seem to be suggesting is that the word aymunukum must mean right hands because of the ukum rather than ikum.
That's not how it works as far as I know and I doubt that anyone whether hadither or Quranist will tell you that the ukum guarantees or implies that the word means right hands rather than oaths.
-
I am still unable to find any reference for oaths from valid sources. Instead all dictionaries say "malakat" = possess, own
Here is another dictionary
http//ia601202.us.archive.org/30/items/ArabicEnglishDictionaryQuranicUsage/Arabic-English-Dictionary-Quranic-Usage.pdfIt gives the same meaning to word "malakat" as to possess ,to own.
It even translate "ma malakat aymanukum" from verse 43 to "those your right hand possess" . Dictionary author failed to mention that it may mean oath or it is past tense etc.
-
I am still unable to find any reference for oaths from valid sources. Instead all dictionaries say "malakat" = possess, own
Here is another dictionary
http//ia601202.us.archive.org/30/items/ArabicEnglishDictionaryQuranicUsage/Arabic-English-Dictionary-Quranic-Usage.pdfIt gives the same meaning to word "malakat" as to possess ,to own.
It even translate "ma malakat aymanukum" from verse 43 to "those your right hand possess" . Dictionary author failed to mention that it may mean oath or it is past tense etc.
Try lane
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000318.pdf
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Your looking at the root ya-miim-nun
-
Try lane
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000318.pdf
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Your looking at the root ya-miim-nun
from PRLonline.htm I selected "mlk" and it redirected me to
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=mlkThe link clearly states "malakat" as "posess"
-
Yes if the verse is refferring 'sex slaves' as per according to you.
But since I dont believe that the verse has something to do with sex slaves, the verse isnt saying that according to me. It tells you that I have to guard my private parts except from my husband or those maintained by oaths (docters, nurses, fiancees,etc).Peace Rameez
Do you think the above is more in line with the rest of the Quran, or the understanding of slaves?
If MMA is about possession and slaves, does aymunkum have a role in the phrase Ma Malekat Aymunkum? Why right hands? what exactly does right hand show regarding possession? This word is completely unnecessary if it's talking about slaves which in the Quran is referred to as something elsehttp//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqb#(58925)
-
Let's get aymunukum out of the way then discuss malekat.
-
Peace Rameez
Do you think the above is more in line with the rest of the Quran, or the understanding of slaves?
If MMA is about possession and slaves, does aymunkum have a role in the phrase Ma Malekat Aymunkum? Why right hands? what exactly does right hand show regarding possession? This word is completely unnecessary if it's talking about slaves which in the Quran is referred to as something elsehttp//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqb#(58925)
Ma Malakat Aymanuhum = What their right hand possess. I have shown you from multiple dictionaries, you are unable to show me any dictionary which tells me that "Ma Malakat Aymanukum" has different meaning.
What does right hand show regarding possession ? In many language we have such statements , like in Urdu we say "yeh to mere dayen hath ka kaam hai" , if you translate this urdu statement in english it will become "this is mine right hand's work" , the statement means that "the work is very easy for me".
Just like in many verses it says "Pledged your right hand" , it means they signed contract/agreement etc.
-
Let's get aymunukum out of the way then discuss malekat.
I have shown you from dictionaries that it means "what their(nuhum)/your(nukum) right hand possess" . You are still unable to show me a dictionary which translate this into "oath" . There is no point in discussing root word , you have to show me the meaning of complete word.
-
Root word ? I am simply asking for the meaning of words mentioned in verses , not their root words
At 236 aymunuhum = their oaths (based on the possible meanings of the word according to lane lexicon)
If I asked you to give me the meaning, you would have to look at the root of the word and check the verse and see what works and then see what fits best with the rest of the Quran and then determine a meaning.
You don't just say aymunukum has one set meaning and aymanikum has another set meaning. I also gave you lane. You gave me a translation.
What you need to do is to prove that aymunukum MUST NECCESSARILY mean right hand at 236 you haven't done that yet. You can give a translation but this does not prove that it is the only possible translation. Another possible translation has been given. On what grounds are you rejecting it?
I cannot say to you that at 236 it must mean oaths because the arabic won't allow right hands. Just as you cannot say to me that it must mean right hands and cannot mean oaths because the arabic won't allow it. Do you see what I'm saying?
BUT what I have in defence that you don't have is a use of the word ya mim nun as oaths. If you take it as right hand, the word is senseless. Where have you ever heard of someone possessing someone with their (not just hand) but right hand? Do you have anything from the Quran?
What to we have from the Quran?....oaths!
I have shown you from dictionaries that it means "what their(nuhum)/your(nukum) right hand possess"
Their and your...oaths as that makes sense at 236 but right hands don't.
You are still unable to show me a dictionary which translate this into "oath" . There is no point in discussing root word , you have to show me the meaning of complete word.
I gave you lane which covers the possible meanings of the root of the word. There is no one dictionary to absolutely determine all different variations of the root of a word as far as I know.
-
I have quoted all popular transations , shown from dictionaries , tried to show using arabic . Do you think that all translators lacked arabic skills ?
I'm not sure on their objectivity. I think some may sacrifice Aql for the sake of Hadith even though what the Hadith is suggesting is not in line with the Quran.
There is an excess amount of authority given to the Hadith to the extent that the message of the Quran is distorted and the use of the Aql is not as it should be IMO.
-
At 236 aymunuhum = their oaths (based on the possible meanings of the word according to lane lexicon)
If I asked you to give me the meaning, you would have to look at the root of the word and check the verse and see what works and then see what fits best with the rest of the Quran and then determine a meaning.
You don't just say aymunukum has one set meaning and aymanikum has another set meaning. I also gave you lane. You gave me a translation.
236 aymanuhum= their right hand (proved from Corpus Quran and QuranicArabicDictionary i posted above)
Lane's lexicon do not mention meaning of these words, I am unable to find them. Can you quote from lane's here ?
What you need to do is to prove that aymunukum MUST NECCESSARILY mean right hand at 236 you haven't done that yet. You can give a translation but this does not prove that it is the only possible translation. Another possible translation has been given. On what grounds are you rejecting it?
I cannot say to you that at 236 it must mean oaths because the arabic won't allow right hands. Just as you cannot say to me that it must mean right hands and cannot mean oaths because the arabic won't allow it. Do you see what I'm saying?
I am arguing using dictionaries. You are most welcome to quote a dictionary for words "aymanuhum" and "aymanukum".
BUT what I have in defence that you don't have is a use of the word ya mim nun as oaths. If you take it as right hand, the word is senseless. Where have you ever heard of someone possessing someone with their (not just hand) but right hand? Do you have anything from the Quran?
From quran it says "pledged your right hand", which means contract/agreement. It is some sort of idiom.
What to we have from the Quran?....oaths!
Their and your...oaths as that makes sense at 236 but right hands don't.
I gave you lane which covers the possible meanings of the root of the word. There is no one dictionary to absolutely determine all different variations of the root of a word as far as I know.
Wrong, oaths do not make sense, it is just you who don't want to accept that it is "what their right hand possess". I am yet to see any reference from dictionary that "aymanukum" means oath.
Discussing root word is useless when the words are there . Quote to me the meanings of both "aymanukum" and "aymanuhum" from authentic dictionary , that is so simple I am asking. I have quoted 2 dictionaries for my claim.
-
236 aymanuhum= their right hand (proved from Corpus Quran and QuranicArabicDictionary i posted above)
Corpus doesn't prove anything. It's not a dictionary. When it does its word by word thing, it's giving one possible translation of a word that it thinks it's right but it's not giving the definite meaning of the word. Lane is as far as I've heard, the main source that everyone goes to with regards to the meanings of the word. There is no one dictionary that covers all variations of roots as far as I know.
Lane's lexicon do not mention meaning of these words, I am unable to find them. Can you quote from lane's here ?
In the link I gave you, check the middle column. I know it's a bit hard to read but it's there, just give it some time. I can't copy paste it as it won't come out right. I've tried it before.
I am arguing using dictionaries. You are most welcome to quote a dictionary for words "aymanuhum" and "aymanukum".
Corpus isn't a dictionary and your other link IMO is biased and whatever it has, has to go through lane as far as i know. Thus lane is the foundational source that everyone goes to for meanings of word as far as I know.
From quran it says "pledged your right hand", which means contract/agreement. It is some sort of idiom.
Ok let's say contract/agreement. How does that lead to slavery? The issue is that there is nothing in the Quran that suggests right hands conveys anything other than oaths at 236. You might say that there are oaths involved in contracts or agreements between people but you can't say this leads to slavery.
Wrong, oaths do not make sense, it is just you who don't want to accept that it is "what their right hand possess". I am yet to see any reference from dictionary that "aymanukum" means oath.
If you can tell me how right hand makes sense at 236 then I possibly have reason to accept it but you haven't given me anything nor has anyone else.
Discussing root word is useless when the words are there . Quote to me the meanings of both "aymanukum" and "aymanuhum" from authentic dictionary , that is so simple I am asking. I have quoted 2 dictionaries for my claim.
To understand the meaning of words, you look at it's root. It's not like english where some words have set meanings. We don't look at roots for fun, we look at it because it is the best possible source we can have with regards to what it could mean. That's why lane is possibly the best source that everyone goes to as far as I know.
-
Corpus doesn't prove anything. It's not a dictionary. When it does its word by word thing, it's giving one possible translation of a word that it thinks it's right but it's not giving the definite meaning of the word. Lane is as far as I've heard, the main source that everyone goes to with regards to the meanings of the word. There is no one dictionary that covers all variations of roots as far as I know.
Corpus has a dictionary , when you click on the word it gives you all meanings. I also quoted "Quranic Arabic Dictionary" , of course you will ignore it too because it do not fit your viewpoint.
I think you haven't heard of LisanulArab and LisanulQuran. All arabic experts refer to those dictionaries and many early translators and commentators used those dictionaries.Lane's lexicon is a new one.In the link I gave you, check the middle column. I know it's a bit hard to read but it's there, just give it some time. I can't copy paste it as it won't come out right. I've tried it before.
Please quote the meanings of aymanukum and aymanuhum.
Corpus isn't a dictionary and your other link IMO is biased and whatever it has, has to go through lane as far as i know. Thus lane is the foundational source that everyone goes to for meanings of word as far as I know.
IMO ? Your opinion is not at all evidence for anything unless backed up by valid sources. Lane's lexicon is a new one., read about Lisanul Arab and Lisanul Quran.
Ok let's say contract/agreement. How does that lead to slavery? The issue is that there is nothing in the Quran that suggests right hands conveys anything other than oaths at 236. You might say that there are oaths involved in contracts or agreements between people but you can't say this leads to slavery.
aqadat aymanukum= pledged your right hand
ma malakat aymanukum = what possess your right hand.Instead of focusing on "right hand" take the complete word "ma malakat aymanukum" ...ma malakat simply means "what possess" and it refers to ownership.
If you can tell me how right hand makes sense at 236 then I possibly have reason to accept it but you haven't given me anything nor has anyone else.
I haven't given you anything ? 2 dictionaries are not sufficient ? 7-8 + translators are not enough ? commentators from 7th century to 21st century are not enough ?
To understand the meaning of words, you look at it's root. It's not like english where some words have set meanings. We don't look at roots for fun, we look at it because it is the best possible source we can have with regards to what it could mean. That's why lane is possibly the best source that everyone goes to as far as I know.
Root is useless when words have different meanings. Root can be same but words can have different meanings else it is best to mention the "root" word instead of "derived" word.
-
Instead of focusing on "right hand" take the complete word "ma malakat aymanukum" ...ma malakat simply means "what possess" and it refers to ownership.
I haven't given you anything ? 2 dictionaries are not sufficient ? 7-8 + translators are not enough ? commentators from 7th century to 21st century are not enough ?
no you haven't given anything with regards to what the purpose and function of right hand means in the phrase Ma Malekat aymunkum. The word is used thus obviously it must have a function or purpose. What is it?
Root is useless when words have different meanings. Root can be same but words can have different meanings else it is best to mention the "root" word instead of "derived" word.
Ok how about some evidence that aymunukum is always and neccessarily derived to mean right hand? If you put the links to the pages, that would be useful. But more importantly please explain the function or purpose of the word aymunukum at 236 so that it can actually be seen as possibly workable.
-
I found many people here having problem with "right hand possesses" in the verses of Quran which refers to slaves and in many verses it refers to female slaves coz they are mentioned along with wives.
Salaam. peace
I found you also having problems with it, you seem difficult to accept if they are not slaves.
... But it is mentioned in Quran as permissible...
Are you sure?
... and established practice of Muhammad(PBUH) and His Companions.
I guess that's what you get if you believe in the hearsay story that was never written by the messenger of God and his companions.
Rather than insisting that they are slaves, why not be sincere to find real meaning.
You do know that brothers and sisters on this forum already shares their views to discuss what it means, but you seem to not want to listen carefully to what they say.
3917 For those who avoid serving evil, and turn to God in repentance, for them are glad tidings. So give the good news to My servants.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones endowed with insight.
-
Salaam. peace
I found you also having problems with it, you seem difficult to accept if they are not slaves.Please explain what do you call a "possession". I have proved from dictionaries but you guys as Quranist ignore everything that goes against to presumptions.
Rather than insisting that they are slaves, why not be sincere to find real meaning.
You do know that brothers and sisters on this forum already shares their views to discuss what it means, but you seem to not want to listen carefully to what they say.
I did not insist, I simply proved that they are "possessions" .Read the whole thread your brothers and sisters are unable to prove their argument. They are constantly whining about IMO IMO IMO.
3917 For those who avoid serving evil, and turn to God in repentance, for them are glad tidings. So give the good news to My servants.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones endowed with insight.
Best tool of Quranists, bring irrelevant verses in discussion.
-
no you haven't given anything with regards to what the purpose and function of right hand means in the phrase Ma Malekat aymunkum. The word is used thus obviously it must have a function or purpose. What is it?
Are you blind or you are willfully ignoring my comments. "What their right hand possess" is idiom , which means "possession" and Quran refers this to "slaves".
Ok how about some evidence that aymunukum is always and neccessarily derived to mean right hand? If you put the links to the pages, that would be useful. But more importantly please explain the function or purpose of the word aymunukum at 236 so that it can actually be seen as possibly workable.
Stop crying like a 2yrs old kid. Right hand is explained it is an "What their right hand possess" is an idiom . I gave you example from Urdu also that we have sentences/idioms which include "right hand".
I have proved from 2 dictionaries. Now its your turn to show me a place where "aymanukum" and "aymanuhum" is oath.
-
I am not at all agreeing that "aymanuhum"="oath".
But even if we translate "ma malakat aymanuhum" as per your translation , it simply says about "possession". You cannot translate "malakat" into something else other than "owning","possession".
According to Corpus Quran, Arabic English dictionary JG Hava,Arabic English Dictionary Quranic Usage, HANS WEHR A DICTIONARY OF MODERN WRITTEN ARABIC says the meaning of "malakat"=to take in possession,take over,possess, own,be the owner of,to dominate,to be master.
So your translation will be "What possess by their oaths". Possession is still there.
I know wikipedia is not at all authentic and cannot be counted as evidence but the link on wikipedia also gives literal translation
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_malakat_aymanukum