New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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peace all,
After a long delay, I have finally completed the 3rd part in my study of sujud series
What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
Click www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
It is quite long and technical at times, but IF my findings are correct, then this would be a huge breakthrough in understanding of Quran. Take your time reading it.
As always, feedback welcome, especially corrections.
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Peace Wakas.
First let me congratulate you on your big effort to tackle one of the most difficult area in Qoran.
Thank you for facilitating the study of " AMAH" to users of this forum.
I shall look forward to studying your work in the coming days.
Peace.
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Salamun alaika,
The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B. Since we have ruled out a physical journey, this only leaves a spiritual journey and/or vision/dream or some other understanding. The use of "night" may indicate during sleep, i.e. a dream/vision.
Strange!! Red part and still concluding that physical journey should be struck out. Arent they self contradictory? Such assertion gives the perception as if Allah the Exalted picked up His Allegiant Servant while asleep and took him along from A to B. And reaching at B, He the Exalted awakened him to see with eyes something.
Allah the Exalted does not sleep. It is He the Exalted Who is taking and making His Servant travelling departing from A towards the destination B. Both the prepositions rule out the possibility of "travel" while asleep. Please cross check words about "Asraa". The point will become clear that it denotes only physical journeying not roaming in sleep.
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salaam mazhar,
As is often the case, I do not follow what you are saying, but I did notice you provided no actual evidence. Please try again.
Salam,
I think I said something in simple words.
You said "The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B.".
Allah the Exalted has taken away a person who is His Servant from his presence location A to another location B.You further say the man did not go physically.
Do you mean that Servant was picked up while asleep at his location A and transported to location B where he was still and remained assleep?
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Salam,
I think I said something in simple words.
You said "The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B.".
Allah the Exalted has taken away a person who is His Servant from his presence location A to another location B.You further say the man did not go physically.
Do you mean that Servant was picked up while asleep at his location A and transported to location B where he was still and remained assleep?
He could be right , it may not be a physical journey.
The sura was called Bani Israil and now they have changed it to Al Isra-i wonder why?!
The Sura is about the Children of Israil, but starts with the actions of Moses- i would say.
171
Glorified who set forth His slave by loss of power and prosperity from submitting to haram to submitting in extreme distance of it whereof we blessed his strength to show him of Our Signs He the All-Hearer the All-Seer.17,2
And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding) "Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs."17.3
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.17.4
And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)17.5
When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.It is all black and white- or is it just to me?
Moses story.
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And he entered the city unexpectedly, without being noticed by the people. He found in it two men who were fighting, one was from his own race, and the other was from his enemy?s. So the one who was from his own race called on him for help against his enemy, whereby Moses punched him, killing him. He said ?This is from the work of the devil; he is an enemy that clearly misleads.?
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He said ?My Lord, I have wronged my soul, so forgive me.? He then forgave him, for He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.
peace
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salaam Mazhar,
Do you mean that Servant was picked up while asleep at his location A and transported to location B where he was still and remained assleep?
Firstly, have you read the article? If you have, then you will have noted that I did not state nor imply the above. What you are saying would still be physical, as sister Ayisha pointed out.
Rather than discussing what I did not say, let's rather discuss what I actually said. This will be more beneficial.
Quotes from article
Notably, in the same chapter, in 1793, the messenger clearly implies he cannot ascend in the heaven/sky and is only a human. Not only does this rule out the physical journey/ascension theory, but implies if he were to ascend physically it would make him other than human which is the very opposite of Quran's message. Also see 635. Further, a physical journey has not been described using such terms in AQ elsewhere as far as I am aware, so we can safely rule out the physical journey option.
The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B. Since we have ruled out a physical journey, this only leaves a spiritual journey and/or vision/dream or some other understanding. The use of "night" may indicate during sleep, i.e. a dream/vision.
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In my opinion he astral travelled in his sleep. The notion of it being a physical journey has never sit right with me. Whether it refers to muhammed or moses thats another point of discussion.
PEACE
I was just about to say astral projection comes to mind for me too. peace
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Prince/Ayisha
I think Wakas made a good point in terms of it not being a physical journey
Notably, in the same chapter, in 1793, the messenger clearly implies he cannot ascend in the heaven/sky and is only a human. Not only does this rule out the physical journey/ascension theory, but implies if he were to ascend physically it would make him other than human which is the very opposite of Quran's message. Also see 635. Further, a physical journey has not been described using such terms in AQ elsewhere as far as I am aware, so we can safely rule out the physical journey option.
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salaam Mazhar,
Firstly, have you read the article? If you have, then you will have noted that I did not state nor imply the above. What you are saying would still be physical, as sister Ayisha pointed out.
Rather than discussing what I did not say, let's rather discuss what I actually said. This will be more beneficial.
Quotes from article
You know I start only when I have read your article. Yousaid this
The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B. Since we have ruled out a physical journey, this only leaves a spiritual journey and/or vision/dream or some other understanding. The use of "night" may indicate during sleep, i.e. a dream/vision.
Spiritual journey, vision, dream or what Prince says astral projection, do not go by your words "God took his servant from A to B".
Timing is also mentioned "during the Night". Preposition "bi" means with, along with; preposition "Min" means the departure location and Preposition "Ila" means towards a location which is the destination of the journey during the hours of night.Purpose is also mentioned "" "so that We might make him see with eyes".
Qur'aan is very comprehensive, and worded very guarding, since Allah knew people will try play with His words.
We are not discussing whether physical journey seems possible to someone or not according to one's present level of knowledge, but are discussing what is stated in the Arabic text.
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You know I start only when I have read your article. Yousaid this
Spiritual journey, vision, dream or what Prince says astral projection, do not go by your words "God took his servant from A to B".
Timing is also mentioned "during the Night". Preposition "bi" means with, along with; preposition "Min" means the departure location and Preposition "Ila" means towards a location which is the destination of the journey during the hours of night.Purpose is also mentioned "" "so that We might make him see with eyes".
Qur'aan is very comprehensive, and worded very guarding, since Allah knew people will try play with His words.
We are not discussing whether physical journey seems possible to someone or not according to one's present level of knowledge, but are discussing what is stated in the Arabic text.
So if this was a physical journey Muhammed will have met God as the words imply/say God TOOK him, so God was WITH him physically and TOOK him physically, which is what you are saying.
peace
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salaam all,
Whether it refers to muhammed or moses thats another point of discussion.
This issue is addressed in the article.
Purpose is also mentioned "" "so that We might make him see with eyes".
You seem to claim it is with physical eyes, and whilst this is correct generally, the exact same word is used for dream also
When God shows them to you as being few in your dream...
The likely reason for the usage is that even in our dreams, generally speaking we use the eyes to see, or at least I do, I dont know about others.
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You seem to claim it is with physical eyes, and whilst this is correct generally, the exact same word is used for dream also
When God shows them to you as being few in your dream...
Salamun Alaika,
The likely reason for the usage is that even in our dreams, generally speaking we use the eyes to see, or at least I do, I dont know about others.
The period of sleep relating to dreams is called Rapid Eye Movement sleep--supporting your using of eyes when dreaming.
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There is difference in both. When this verb is used not in real terms, it takes two objects as in 843-doubly transitive. When in real terms it is singly transitive.
The period of sleep relating to dreams is called Rapid Eye Movement sleep--supporting your using of eyes when dreaming.
Interesting claim, however...
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Can you provide evidence that dreams are only possible with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep?
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Can you provide evidence that the rapid eye movement is due to the sleeper using their eyes to "see" in their dream?
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Does your theory for when the verb is and is not "real terms" hold for ALL its occurrences?
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Does your theory only apply to this verb or others also? If so, can you elaborate.
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According to you, what are the two objects in 843 for this verb?
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According to you, what is the object of this verb in 171?
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Interesting claim, however...
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Can you provide evidence that dreams are only possible with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep?
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Can you provide evidence that the rapid eye movement is due to the sleeper using their eyes to "see" in their dream?
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Does your theory for when the verb is and is not "real terms" hold for ALL its occurrences?
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Does your theory only apply to this verb or others also? If so, can you elaborate.
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According to you, what are the two objects in 843 for this verb?
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According to you, what is the object of this verb in 171?
Please study about REM sleep. Much reasearch has since been made on this. It will be available in all encylopedias on line.
Rest, I incorrectly quoted about it but before I corrected it perhaps your response went up.
The point was to indicate that when this form IV is used to see-expereince something during sleep it is specifically mentioned. It is same in 843 and 37102. Sorry for inconvenience.
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According to you, what are the two objects in 843 for this verb?
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According to you, what is the object of this verb in 171?
I was preparing reply for Ayisha, your querry will help.
In 843 two objects are second person, masculine, singular, accusative state; first object and is the second object; third person; masculine; plural in accusative state. Allah the Exalted is the Subject of verb, and verb is form IV, masculine, singular, mood indicative.
In 171 red is the first object, third person, masculine, singular, in accusative state referring back to sincere allegiant of Him the Exalted. Second Object of verb is elided as manifestly indicated by the following prepositional phrase.
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So if this was a physical journey Muhammed will have met God as the words imply/say God TOOK him, so God was WITH him physically and TOOK him physically, which is what you are saying.
peace
Salamun alaiki,
Strictly adhering to the accepted principles of translating a text, and rules of Arabic grammar-morphology and syntax laid by learned Grammarians, let me try.
Allah the Exalted the Infinitely Glorious, Whose approval is the focus of all effort, is the One Who arranged the travel along with His sincere Allegiant-Muhammad on a journey during some part of night from within Al Masjid al Haram-the Sacred Mosque around Ka'aba in Mecca, towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque.
That Mosque is the One whose surroundings We have perpetuated and blessed.
The purpose of ascending him in the direction towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque was that We might show him visually the biggest sign from the Miscellany of Our Demonstrative Signs-Physical realm.
This is a fact that He the Exalted is the One Who is eternally the Hearer and is of Vision .is a transitive Verb. It needs an Object. It is elided-not mentioned. What was that object used to carry him, it is not yet known-UFO.
