Best Translations of Qur'an
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I came to be convinced of Quran's miraculous structure with Reformist Translation, like the Authorized English version it is accurate yet nice to read as it employs modern English, however both translations are heavy on the footnote side and even though I m convinced of RKs messengership and the 19 structure, some of the calculations in several footnotes to be arbitrary or weak in support with the math used and wished he didn't include them.
MAS Haleem's translation is very minimal in footnotes and brackets and appears very accurate. The paperback is a nice travel size. and of course the monotheist group translation is nice with having no footnotes and brackets yet still provides accuracy and resembles AEV and Reformist Translation in the words chosen. -
Did you try the Qur'an hosted on this site ? I guess you are looking for a neat translation that displays transliteration along with the translations itself. Try this website http//www.quranix.net/ . That site should let you see many many translations along with transliteration. You also have to option to not view any particular translation, so simply pick the one you like along with transliteration. I hope that helps.
Peace
------------ Student of AllahThanks Student of Allah for the very helpful website reference.
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As I don't speak ancient Arabic I am someone who relies completely on translations. The problem is that due to the nature of Arabic, many different variations are possible and some are straight interpretations as diacritical marks were added only very late in the game, so words like "they defeated" and "the defeated" are impossible to distinguish without markings.
302 The Byzantines have been defeated
= Defeated
= VictoriousThen we have weird structures, such as 43, which is translated by Khalifa as
If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers - you may marry two, three, or four.Wiki's definition
An orphan is a child permanently bereaved of or abandoned by his or her parents. In common usage, only a child who has lost both parents is called an orphan. When referring to animals, only the mother's condition is usually relevant.So how can anyone marry an orphan's mother when parents don't exist?
Looking at the translation by Shakir, he thinks it means
And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four;He bypasses the problem with the orphans and sticks to the Koran literally in 2nd half, where he says "two and three and four", unlike Khalifa who changes the words to mean "two, three, or four".
As anyone who has studied ancient Arabic will confirm, the Koran says
which is "and", not "or". So literally it's 2s and 3s and 4s.So we see that different translations have a personal flavour, which makes the sites with multiple translations better.
Personally, I use http//islam.thetruecall.com with multiple options and http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/4/3/default.htm which consists of 42 different translations. A searchable version is here http//www.searchtruth.com
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So how can anyone marry an orphan's mother when parents don't exist?
Are you aware that in classical Arabic yatim/orphan can and does mean fatherless?
And if you are actually interested in some background reading, I recommend
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm -
Are you aware that in classical Arabic yatim/orphan can and does mean fatherless?
No, I am not. Does it make it better in any way? No!
And if you are actually interested in some background reading, I recommend
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htmThis I know and find it utterly dishonest and tasteless.
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This I know and find it utterly dishonest and tasteless.
"To conclude, it is proven beyond doubt by The Quran that one must be physically mature and be of sound judgement in order to get married."
What is dishonest and tasteless about it?StopS, I am a fairly new member here but I have seen many of your posts. If there's anything remarkable about this forum it's the level of tolerance members have. This is coming from a background of posting on Sunni forums where I'd get "warnings" for respectfully expressing disagreement. Of course free-minds would not be what it is without debate, so your presence is valuable but I can't help but wonder You do not affiliate with any religion thus do not care for "converting" us. If I recall correctly, you live in a Muslim majority country but your purpose cannot be to understand the faith as believed and practiced by whom you're surrounded with as most here are non-mainstream. You are not looking for personal enrichment based on (what I deem) the large amounts of dissent asserted by you.
Not to sound rude, but what are you here for? This is not an invitation to leave at all , but I'm genuinely curious.
Sorry if I sounded offensiveAlso, Yusuf Ali is the best physical translation I can get my hands on.
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"To conclude, it is proven beyond doubt by The Quran that one must be physically mature and be of sound judgement in order to get married."
What is dishonest and tasteless about it?StopS, I am a fairly new member here but I have seen many of your posts. If there's anything remarkable about this forum it's the level of tolerance members have. This is coming from a background of posting on Sunni forums where I'd get "warnings" for respectfully expressing disagreement. Of course free-minds would not be what it is without debate, so your presence is valuable but I can't help but wonder You do not affiliate with any religion thus do not care for "converting" us. If I recall correctly, you live in a Muslim majority country but your purpose cannot be to understand the faith as believed and practiced by whom you're surrounded with as most here are non-mainstream. You are not looking for personal enrichment based on (what I deem) the large amounts of dissent asserted by you.
Not to sound rude, but what are you here for? This is not an invitation to leave at all , but I'm genuinely curious.
Sorry if I sounded offensiveAlso, Yusuf Ali is the best physical translation I can get my hands on.
It is remarkable how many times I need to justify my existence. If I think back and try and remember what I have written, I have the impression that most of the time I have come across supportive and informative attitudes here. I have asked, received an answer, verified, got corrected and have learned. At other times I was given information which in my eyes was wrong. It is true that I then voice my dissatisfaction instead of just leaving it and moving on. So I am doing 2 things
- learning what kind of different approaches Muslims have towards their religion
- testing my own knowledge and interpretation against that of people here who have had a lot more exposure to the Koran than me
Yes, I react quite emotionally if I get treated with the condescending attitude displayed so often. Yes, I understand that Muslims have a built in inferiority complex when it comes to Islam being criticised. Yes, I could be less confrontational and politically correct, but that does not help either party in the long run. Because I challenge someone if I find something which I find erroneous, some people think I like arguing and dissonance, while the opposite is true. I actually find the approach of Free-Minds the most straight, uncompromising and honest of all groups I have come across. I have rarely used the hadith and have usually argued only the Koran. Because I am still inexperienced in this view I have made mistakes and have admitted those - I hope.
In this case, I immediately want to scream at people, when I read sentences like "it is proven beyond doubt" when it comes to the Koran. There is precious little which can be proven beyond a doubt and especially when it comes to the Koran, where vague semantics are used allowing for multiple interpretations. This leads to multiple translations, which vary depending on what the author perceives as context. I don't think I need to go into the construction of the Koran and the Arabic language, where meanings are arbitrary at times. In English it's difficult enough, where one comma can make a huge difference to the contents
? Woman, without her, man is lost.
? Woman, without her man, is lost.and in Arabic this becomes a nightmare when words like defeated and defeat vary only in a tiny diacritical mark.
The topic of an ageing man marrying a young girl is prevalent in practised Islam. Whether rightly or not is a different question. The essay Wakas is referring to uses the typical re-interpretation route, declaring all scholars for the last 1000 years who have come to different conclusions as being wrong. I have seen this done so many times and find it dishonest. The essay leaves out sentences such as the one in 654, which says that when a women gets divorced there is a waiting period before re-marrying "and that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated". This makes me doubt that it is indeed clearly and irrefutable decreed that a girl must be physically mature and of sound judgement in order to get married.
I find the entire topic distasteful because I maintain that I should face the music and not try and retrospectively change meanings around. Which is why I would have a lot more respect if the article would have said something about cultural evolution and left it at that. I hope I have been successful in explaining my opinion.
As for the Yusuf Ali translation I find it relatively weak because it interprets too much. A huge amount is in brackets, ie words don't exist and he just writes what he thinks it should mean, instead of leaving the interpreting to the reader. On the other hand he is the only one I know of who only mentions Muhammad 4 times and without any further attempt of idolising him.
As I have stated elsewhere the best would be to have the wishes and instructions hard-wired into our brains, just like a smile, which everyone understands regardless of race or belief, instead of having to rely on translations.
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StopS
The essay Wakas is referring to uses the typical re-interpretation route, declaring all scholars for the last 1000 years who have come to different conclusions as being wrong.
All scholars eh? I have not researched this topic but I know even in Traditional sources there is variance on this subject, e.g. in the orphans and marriageable age verses they say one thing, then in other places say another. And I know Parwez came to the same conclusion I did.
But in any case, do you realise what you said is a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority/popularity"? It amuses me how you seemingly promote logic/evidence except when it goes against your own view.
Further, feel free to bring evidence to refute what the article states. If the best evidence you have is 654 then you should know it has been discussed on this forum before, in detail.
Re-quote of article
Since the orphans can only receive their wealth once "shudud", and from 46 we know they become eligible for it after having reached marriageable age, this can only mean marriageable age begins from adolescence onwards. There is no other possibility.
Please provide another possibility to the above. ;D
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It is remarkable how many times I need to justify my existence.
It's not remarkable at all. I've been on a few Christian and Sunni forums to learn and provide feedback that has been met with visceral hostility requiring me to justify myself. It is human nature when one penetrates a religious sphere, those from within will question one's motives. Not saying it's reasonable, but to be expected.
*Just to clear this up, I'm not asking for justification. Who am I to do that? I'm not important at all; you and anybody else has a right to say whatever they will. But it was puzzling to me that someone would keep contributing despite a clear frustration.
Many members here have gotten dissatisfied of certain things in previous communities, and even argued up to a certain point but things let up after a while.
You say you are here to learn about Islam and its adherents how they believe and practice it differently, yes? But to challenge them as well I suspect. No one here has more exposure to the Qur'an than anyone else. Some people have more understanding, but not more exposure, and its only because they have immersed themselves in its study, which you can do too. The reality is it is your interpretation vs. another interpretation. You are not an unlearned non-Muslim asking for clarification. You have come to conclusions that differ from the majority on here. If the majority disagree, it is does not threaten the moral caliber of the Qur'an. However, your judgments do. You are not incorrect per se, but the framework of your mind is not of a typical muslim (obviously). There is a huge disparity and I cannot explain it easily. If the Qur'an does not on some level resonate with you the moment you read it, never will your interpretation parallel ours.
For example
..."and that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated". This makes me doubt that it is indeed clearly and irrefutable decreed that a girl must be physically mature and of sound judgement in order to get married.
The verse makes you doubt the maturity threshold of a bride in accordance to the Qur'an. What I see is preventative measures a woman must take so that her potential child knows who his or her father is. Of course no dna testing back in the days...
Let's say marrying children was allowed, it makes absolutely no sense to me why would there be a clause specifically to confirm that female children should wait too? Explanation is not proof, but it damn well makes sense to me.If you hope that muslims admit that there is no "irrefutable" proof in the Book, well, you have my admittance. But the explanation that is sensible and plausible to me is not yours. When you read the Qur'an or its translation, you see arbitrary symbols that can hold a multitude of meanings that may even be in direct opposition. When I read the Qur'an, the Truth and Message is clear as day. It just hits me, I don't work for a meaning.
I thought describing the article as dishonest and tasteless was a tad sensationalist, but I can see now that someone like yourself, who's heartstrings are not wrapped into it, may find its writing style too shoddy. It's not a peer-reviewed journal, but I like it and is satisfactory.
This is not just a message to you, but to all people who interpret the Qur'an every which way; wanting to spread the seed of doubt and criticize those who are impervious to it. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh; I respect your straightforwardness and political incorrectness therefore with the same vigor I respond back.Concerning my comment on the Yusuf Ali trans. , that was a reply to the topic. There are no better translation at my local mosque. Really. They are filled to the brim with brackets. Yusuf Ali is the best *physical copy I have. I like to read out of books. Also why I refuse to buy a kindle.
But in any case, do you realise what you said is a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority/popularity"?
I concur. I hate these scholars looming over us, in the shadows, wherever we go they appear. Scholars, scholars, scholars...
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It is remarkable how many times I need to justify my existence. If I think back and try and remember what I have written, I have the impression that most of the time I have come across supportive and informative attitudes here. I have asked, received an answer, verified, got corrected and have learned. At other times I was given information which in my eyes was wrong. It is true that I then voice my dissatisfaction instead of just leaving it and moving on. So I am doing 2 things
- learning what kind of different approaches Muslims have towards their religion
- testing my own knowledge and interpretation against that of people here who have had a lot more exposure to the Koran than me
Yes, I react quite emotionally if I get treated with the condescending attitude displayed so often. Yes, I understand that Muslims have a built in inferiority complex when it comes to Islam being criticised. Yes, I could be less confrontational and politically correct, but that does not help either party in the long run. Because I challenge someone if I find something which I find erroneous, some people think I like arguing and dissonance, while the opposite is true. I actually find the approach of Free-Minds the most straight, uncompromising and honest of all groups I have come across. I have rarely used the hadith and have usually argued only the Koran. Because I am still inexperienced in this view I have made mistakes and have admitted those - I hope.
In this case, I immediately want to scream at people, when I read sentences like "it is proven beyond doubt" when it comes to the Koran. There is precious little which can be proven beyond a doubt and especially when it comes to the Koran, where vague semantics are used allowing for multiple interpretations. This leads to multiple translations, which vary depending on what the author perceives as context. I don't think I need to go into the construction of the Koran and the Arabic language, where meanings are arbitrary at times. In English it's difficult enough, where one comma can make a huge difference to the contents
? Woman, without her, man is lost.
? Woman, without her man, is lost.and in Arabic this becomes a nightmare when words like defeated and defeat vary only in a tiny diacritical mark.
The topic of an ageing man marrying a young girl is prevalent in practised Islam. Whether rightly or not is a different question. The essay Wakas is referring to uses the typical re-interpretation route, declaring all scholars for the last 1000 years who have come to different conclusions as being wrong. I have seen this done so many times and find it dishonest. The essay leaves out sentences such as the one in 654, which says that when a women gets divorced there is a waiting period before re-marrying "and that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated". This makes me doubt that it is indeed clearly and irrefutable decreed that a girl must be physically mature and of sound judgement in order to get married.
I find the entire topic distasteful because I maintain that I should face the music and not try and retrospectively change meanings around. Which is why I would have a lot more respect if the article would have said something about cultural evolution and left it at that. I hope I have been successful in explaining my opinion.
As for the Yusuf Ali translation I find it relatively weak because it interprets too much. A huge amount is in brackets, ie words don't exist and he just writes what he thinks it should mean, instead of leaving the interpreting to the reader. On the other hand he is the only one I know of who only mentions Muhammad 4 times and without any further attempt of idolising him.
As I have stated elsewhere the best would be to have the wishes and instructions hard-wired into our brains, just like a smile, which everyone understands regardless of race or belief, instead of having to rely on translations.
bravo well said and refreshingly honest. For me, if I am unsure of the interpretation of multiple meaning verses in Quran or I read translations which seem to contradict the nature of God and islam, as explained through Quranic verses, I pray to God for the right understanding and I believe that God will reveal the correct meanings when I am ready for them.
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But in any case, do you realise what you said is a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority/popularity"? It amuses me how you seemingly promote logic/evidence except when it goes against your own view.
Not that I know of. I have NOT used scholars instead of an argument by me, but have said that translators are being abused.
Further, feel free to bring evidence to refute what the article states. If the best evidence you have is 654 then you should know it has been discussed on this forum before, in detail.
Look again at what I wrote
This makes me doubt that it is indeed clearly and irrefutable decreed that a girl must be physically mature and of sound judgement in order to get married.Do I claim anything here? NO! READ! Instead of accusing me of something, learn to understand what is written there.
Re-quote of article
Does repeating something wrong make it more right? It is circular reasoning when an unclear sentence with ambiguous wording is substantiated by other vague and unclear sentences to come back and then say this word is now a clear, irrefutable definition. And for me the reason why there are so many versions of translations of these vague sentences is because they are not clear or straightforward and easy to understand.
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It's not remarkable at all. I've been on a few Christian and Sunni forums to learn and provide feedback that has been met with visceral hostility requiring me to justify myself. It is human nature when one penetrates a religious sphere, those from within will question one's motives. Not saying it's reasonable, but to be expected.
I am here because I believe this forum to be better and more honest than other "Christian and Sunni forums". Even though Muslim forums in general seem to thrive on blackening out critical questions and quickly applying censorship I still try and find human personalities, not dogma.
Thank you for back-pedalling, but to me there is a difference between "question one's motives" and
"You are not looking for personal enrichment based on (what I deem) the large amounts of dissent asserted by you. Not to sound rude, but what are you here for?"And you are right and wrong. Yes, I have studied Islam intensely and yes, I have a different mindset from some of the people here. BUT!!! I don't judge. I maintain everyone is entitled to their belief and their version of what reality seems to them. But, yes, of course there had to be another but, I also take the liberty of questioning those interpretations if I am puzzled by them.
Just as I am open to criticism, constructive criticism is best as it helps the learning process, I also take the right of taking a critical look at a phenomenon which determines so much of my life.
I am passionate about truth and science, which I think has become obvious when reading what I have written in the last couple of days. At the same time I am happy if someone can point out where I have a misunderstanding, like the obvious mistake I made with assigning the golden tablets to heaven, where I was obviously mixing fact with fiction.
The verse makes you doubt the maturity threshold of a bride in accordance to the Qur'an.
That is not what I meant and not what I said. It makes me doubt that everything is so clear and defined.
What I see is preventative measures a woman must take so that her potential child knows who his or her father is. Of course no dna testing back in the days...
How is any of this possible with an orphan?
... it damn well makes sense to me.
... but I like it and is satisfactory.There you go, there's your difference. I look for truth and irrefutable descriptions and instructions. If they are not there, call it something different.
Oh goodness, I just realised I sound like a management 101 manual...
This is not just a message to you, but to all people who interpret the Qur'an every which way; wanting to spread the seed of doubt and criticize those who are impervious to it. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh; I respect your straightforwardness and political incorrectness therefore with the same vigor I respond back.
Concerning my comment on the Yusuf Ali trans. , that was a reply to the topic. There are no better translation at my local mosque. Really. They are filled to the brim with brackets. Yusuf Ali is the best *physical copy I have. I like to read out of books. Also why I refuse to buy a kindle.
I concur. I hate these scholars looming over us, in the shadows, wherever we go they appear. Scholars, scholars, scholars...Perfect! Accepted. Sold.
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Typical StopS
StopS 1st said
The essay Wakas is referring to uses the typical re-interpretation route, declaring all scholars for the last 1000 years who have come to different conclusions as being wrong.
Then when I expose it as a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority/popularity", he then says
I have NOT used scholars instead of an argument by me, but have said that translators are being abused.
Do I claim anything here? NO! READ! Instead of accusing me of something, learn to understand what is written there.
Let's say you did not claim anything, but you also did not bring any evidence to the contrary.
Does repeating something wrong make it more right? It is circular reasoning when an unclear sentence with ambiguous wording is substantiated by other vague and unclear sentences to come back and then say this word is now a clear, irrefutable definition.
You were unable to provide another possibility to the interpretation of the verses I presented. You claim it is unclear/ambiguous yet you cannot provide an alternative understanding.
Let me make it really really simple for you
- do not give the orphans their wealth UNTIL they reach shudud/adolescence
- test the orphans UNTIL they have reached marriageable age/sexual maturity, THEN if you determine in them sound judgment, then give them their wealth
Since we seemingly disagree on when the part in bold (Arabic nikah) comes about, let's assign this X.
Your task determine X.
Please provide ALL the possibilities you can think of for X that are logically possible according to the above 2 statements, and can slot into the rest of Quran. Then we will see if it is "unclear/ambiguous" as you claim.My question is simple. Please dont run away.
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I am here because I believe this forum to be better and more honest than other "Christian and Sunni forums". Even though Muslim forums in general seem to thrive on blackening out critical questions and quickly applying censorship I still try and find human personalities, not dogma.
Fair enough. I agree.
How is any of this possible with an orphan?
I'm not sure. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding.
I was referring to this.The essay leaves out sentences such as the one in 654, which says that when a women gets divorced there is a waiting period before re-marrying "and that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated". This makes me doubt that it is indeed clearly and irrefutable decreed that a girl must be physically mature and of sound judgement in order to get married.
Verse 4 in Chapter of Divorce (65)
And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him. (Pickthall)My comment below refers to 654
What I see is preventative measures a woman must take so that her potential child knows who his or her father is.
Despair of menstruation -> menstruating irregularly/stopped for a while
If ye doubt -> unlikely but possible to get pregnant
three months -> adequate time to discern whether or not pregnant (in most cases)
along with those who have it not -> not on their monthly cycle
with child -> pregnant
period shall be till they bring forth their burden -> until she gives birth
Getting married (with consummation) within 3 months after divorce and getting pregnant could be confusing in terms of knowing who fathered the child. Of course 3 months isn't the end all be all waiting period, but it helps things along. That's how I break it down. If this doesn't make sense, leave it.I am passionate about truth and science
Thank you.
Peace.
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Typical StopS
StopS 1st saidThen when I expose it as a logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority/popularity", he then says
Let's say you did not claim anything, but you also did not bring any evidence to the contrary.Hahaha, don't flatter yourself. You did not "expose" anything. You wrongly used a phrase you don't fully understand.
YOU make the claim, YOU bring the evidence.You were unable to provide another possibility to the interpretation of the verses I presented. You claim it is unclear/ambiguous yet you cannot provide an alternative understanding.
I don't have to. I made a very clear statement regarding your claim. I showed why your claim is erroneous in my eyes. You can't refute my opinion as much as you'd like to.
Let me make it really really simple for you
- do not give the orphans their wealth UNTIL they reach shudud/adolescence
- test the orphans UNTIL they have reached marriageable age/sexual maturity, THEN if you determine in them sound judgment, then give them their wealth
Since we seemingly disagree on when the part in bold (Arabic nikah) comes about, let's assign this X.
Your task determine X.
Please provide ALL the possibilities you can think of for X that are logically possible according to the above 2 statements, and can slot into the rest of Quran. Then we will see if it is "unclear/ambiguous" as you claim.My question is simple. Please dont run away.
No, why should I have to determine anything. All I said was that due to the ambiguous wording and due to the fact that there are contrary statements it is not clear.
Does the Koran name an age? No.
Does the Koran define adolescence? No.
Does the Koran define marriageable age? No.
Does the Koran define sexual maturity? No.All we have is some vague terms such as wet dreams and sound judgement. Does this help in determining what is the age of consent? No, not at all. That is the reason we have such a mess with the translations.
Even the legal determination in secular countries is at a loss how to determine this, which is why you have anything between 14 and 18 as the age as of which you are allowed to have sex and get married. You also have exceptions to this. It is really not a clear cut case whether religious or not.
If you want to pretend the Koran is clear or accurate about this topic, go ahead and prove it. -
I'm not sure. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding.
This whole thing originates from my claiming that translators often don't translate but interpret. I brought an example where I showed that using orphans does not make sense as orphans can't have a mother which will marry someone. By definition.
I then showed how a word such as "and" is arbitrarily changed to an "or" in a translation, showing that sites with multiple translations or word-by-word translations have an advantage.This then led to a disagreement where I opposed the notion that translations of the Koran - which I depend on - are clear on what the age of consent is. In my opinion the Koran does not clarify who can marry whom at what age. I see only instructions as to whether a man can have multiple wives (polygyny) and whether a man can marry a non-Muslim woman.
I might be wrong on this but that's what I understand. -
This whole thing originates from my claiming that translators often don't translate but interpret. I brought an example where I showed that using orphans does not make sense as orphans can't have a mother which will marry someone. By definition.
Some definitions of orphans include children that have lost one parent (especially fathers). Even so, I'm not following how verse 654 relates to orphans. Unless a translation added it. Translation can inject meaning, and translating from Arabic to English is messy.
In my opinion the Koran does not clarify who can marry whom at what age.
I think so too, yes. Although it is required one has a good understanding of finance and not entered into a marriage unwillingly. From reading the Qur'an I've never gotten the impression that marrying someone unable to give proper consent was OK. What age that is depends on many things. 18 is the age of consent in America. 18 is not a magic number but it exists because there needs to be a quantative minimum. I personally believe the Qur'an isn't overly specific about the age of consent to not impede on laws. The age of consent obviously affects not just marriage/sex but a multitude of other types of business contracts and agreements. With all that said and done, I don't think a person who upholds righteousness would take advantage of someone else's weakness (like a lack of better judgment) and upholding righteousness is a message frequent in our Book.
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salaam all,
Please note StopS did not provide any alternative possibility, not even one, to his so-called "unclear/ambiguous" verses. I would have thought "unclear/ambiguous" verses could have many viable possibilities, yet he provides zero.
Exposed.
You see, this is what generally happens when forced to use Quran and only Quran, many misunderstandings and variance is cleared up.
And StopS also admits
Even the legal determination in secular countries is at a loss how to determine this, which is why you have anything between 14 and 18 as the age as of which you are allowed to have sex and get married. You also have exceptions to this. It is really not a clear cut case whether religious or not.
In other words, every country in the entire world apparently struggles with this issue.
So to sum up StopS's argument Quran is unclear/ambiguous yet I cannot provide any viable alternative to the verses and every system in the world struggles with this issue.
Lame.
Please try again StopS. ;D
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Some definitions of orphans include children that have lost one parent (especially fathers).
Are you saying an orphan can still have parents? Can a half-orphan have both parents? Can we choose?
Even so, I'm not following how verse 654 relates to orphans.
Why do you think 654 has anything to do with orphans? It's about females who need to wait for 3 months to determine a possible pregnancy, even if they no longer have or have not yet had their periods. I can't see this. Where do you see anything about orphans here?
Unless a translation added it. Translation can inject meaning, and translating from Arabic to English is messy.
I think so too, yes. Although it is required one has a good understanding of finance and not entered into a marriage unwillingly. From reading the Qur'an I've never gotten the impression that marrying someone unable to give proper consent was OK. What age that is depends on many things. 18 is the age of consent in America. 18 is not a magic number but it exists because there needs to be a quantative minimum. I personally believe the Qur'an isn't overly specific about the age of consent to not impede on laws. The age of consent obviously affects not just marriage/sex but a multitude of other types of business contracts and agreements. With all that said and done, I don't think a person who upholds righteousness would take advantage of someone else's weakness (like a lack of better judgment) and upholding righteousness is a message frequent in our Book.Exactly. This is why I think the people who live in a culture where it is normal that a man of 60 can marry a girl of 8 is not what I would call an example for the rest of the world.
