Shahr/month in the light of the quran
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Salam brother Ayman, all,
696 talks about "alqamar" being for counting. Since you claim the "qamar" means full moon, you are inadvertently refuting your OWN argument that "hilal"/new-moon is used for counting the months.
I'm not sure if you get it. "alqamar" is for counting but at which phase? the response is in 2189 the new moon is a timing mechanism for the four restricted month. The month of ramadhan is a restcited month, consequently the new moon is a timing mechanism for the month of ramadhan.
Allah said that the new moons are a timing mechanism for the people and for Alhajj.? For Alhajj comes after for the people.
I deduce that the people use the new moons as a timing mechanism whatever the month; The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (936)
The moon (alqamar) has several phases, the god deosn't let us to guess at which phase of the moon, these months started and ended (alshhurum maAAlumat/appointed months) (2197).
As for 2189, please read 7142 where Moussa is described as achieving/completing the "myqat". Hence, similar to 7142, "mawaqit" in 2189 is talking about the timing for completion of "7ajj" NOT the beginning of "7ajj".
I disagree because"mawaqit" doesn't imply only the end of an appointed time, notice that the god uses the verb "amma/he completes" before "meeqatu rabbihi/the appointed time of his Lord". This appointed time has a beginning and an end.
Another example, the same word is used in 4103
the salat for the believers is a book at the times appointed. These times are explained in the light of the reading; the begenning and the end for the salat at dawn and the salat at dusk.Brother, there is no problem if we diverge about our understanding.
Let us take time of reflexion before continuing this debate.
Peace
Marie
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Peace Ayman and Idolfree,
Prove that the change is not drastic for the southern hemisphere, then you have a point. One cannot equate salaat times with that because a fundamental change is the hot season in the northern hemisphere corresponds to winter from where I am i.e. the southern tropics. I am not buying your arguments for the time being.
Regards
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
At this stage, I think that the etymology of the word "ramadhan" suggests that it is the time when the sun is at its highest point of the year (scorching/smallest shadow) and the days are longest and this happens on the summer solstice. Hence, the first full-moon after the summer solstice would be the full-moon of "ramadhan". There are other signs that talk about the relationship between the sun and the shadow as one of "guide". As for the "scorcher/bright/penetrating", it could describe many things other than Sirius.
Yes, I agree that it is summer solstice, I only mention sirius because I was under the assumption that Sirius comes just before the summer solstice.
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Peace be upon you Mozmahe,
Prove that the change is not drastic for the southern hemisphere, then you have a point. One cannot equate salaat times with that because a fundamental change is the hot season in the northern hemisphere corresponds to winter from where I am i.e. the southern tropics. I am not buying your arguments for the time being.
Please elaborate on the drastic change, I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying that it is not so because it is not hot everywhere at the same time? I am not following, please clarify so I can try to answer.
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salams,
i think we're getting carried away here with the meaning of ramadan. the meaning of the word indicates severe heat, and here we are talking about solstices and sirius.
You would think that if such were the case, there would be some other detail in the Quran. Some mention of the sun or something other than the word ramadan that from every source I have seen, was the name of a calendrical month BEFORE Islam.
SPLITTING THE UMMAH
As far as the solstice goes... why on earth would the Muslim unified ummah be split up in such a way? With half fasting one part of the year, the other half fasting the other part of the year (as the solstice is different in the different hemispheres). Not only that, but god forbid you end up at the equator cuz then you're screwed.LEXICONS?
Now if you look at the lexicons where you found the meaning severe heat... you'll also find that ramadan was the name of a month even BEFORE Islam. And in fact there was another older name for that month, but all the months were renamed at one point... It was named ramadan because in those days the month occurred when there was severe heat. This is evident in some other names of the month, such as rabee' awwal and thaani (spring).So as far as the case for the "summer solstice" goes, it is definitely not clear cut and definitely not the ONLY way to interpret the verses. And since it would entail splitting the ummah into 2 for fasting, I say it's also unfavorable.
SUMMER SOLSTICE=SCORCHING HEAT?
Not only that, but ramadan's root is severe heat, but who says severe heat MUST mean the summer solstice? Is there evidence that the Arabs followed the summer solstice? And as far as the connection between summer solstice and heat"For those of us living in latitudes north of 45 degrees, it is natural to consider the Summer Solstice as the start of summer weather as well because the three warmest months of the year are usually June, July and August. The lag in air temperature behind the solar intensity peak is due to the use of much of the Spring solar energy to melt snow and ice, heat land surfaces and warm waters from their winter chill. In continental areas such as the Canadian Prairie Provinces and American Plains States, annual temperature cycle peaks from late July to early August, whereas in the Pacific Northwest, the warmest stretch of days annually occurs from late August to early September. That extra month is required to heat the cold Pacific waters offshore."
Why longest days aren't the hottest days
Each year on June 20 or 21, the sun reaches its highest point in the Northern Hemisphere sky ? the summer solstice. Days around the time of the summer solstice are the year's longest. Even with the year's longest days, however, the hottest weather arrives about a month later for most places. The graphic here uses Chicago as an example of how the hottest weather lags the longest days of the year. This happens because even as the days grow shorter, the amount of solar heat arriving at the ground is greater than the amount of heat leaving the earth. The days continue growing hotter as heat accumulates. Weather begins cooling when the balance shifts to more heat leaving than arriving. Temperature figures here are 30-year averages."
http//www.usatoday.com/weather/walm2.htm
wassalam
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Peace,
What I am implying is very simple. Assumptions Ramadhan was the month in which the reading was revealed and Jibril brings those revelations and Jibril is an unseen being. Let us take this simple scenario During the times of the messenger, it is Ramadhan and he is receiving the revelation and for some reason he was able to go to the southern hemisphere the next day, Are you implying then that he should wait a few months to receive the revelations again. Or Jibril can only accede to the northern hemisphere at certain times and not the other. This will also mean that the night of "destiny" is not fixed.
Regards
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Peace be upon you all,
I am not sure what the issue is regarding timing. Please consider again that everyone in the world establishes thier "salaat" at dawn. The Entire world does not have dawn at the same time, so why is there a problem with abstaining being a different time?
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salam br idolfree,
salat is not at the same EXACT time because obviously that would be very inconvenient for some people to wake up 3 times during their sleep to pray and then go the whole day without praying. Obviously DAILY schedules cannot coincide precisely...
but even despite this... an amazing fact is that the aathaan goes around the world. Ever thought about that? When it is time for salat and athaan is given in one location, earth continues to rotate, each zone calls its athaan until it goes around the world. I think that's amazing. A unified Muslim ummah with an athaan that can be heard around the world like a domino effect. Same goes for breaking fast (iftaar). The iftaar that goes around the world! )
Compare that to the bizarre notion of everyone above the equator fast one part of the year, everyone below fast another part. That IS splitting the ummah CLEARLY in half. That is an unacceptable policy. AND, in my opinion, it has little or no support from the Quran either.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
That sounded very fancy, but the TRUTH is that salaat times ARE NOT the same, likewise, the timing for abstaining does not need to be the same either. The "dominoe effect" excuse you gave just does not work. Further, there is no ritualistic call to salaat, calling to salaat is simpy telling others to maintain thier salaat, not posing for the cameras and singing.
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salam idolfree,
so you dont believe in the physical aspect of salat? That is another discussion... i'm not going to follow your little red herrings you like to plant in every conversation.
the point is that you dont want to physically establish salat, and you want to split the ummah in half for fasting... i dont.
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
If you are going to be so narrow-minded that you can't understand why someone across the globe won't wake up 3 times at night to pray... then what else can i tell you. i am sure my points are well taken by those who are actually looking for the answer and not just sticking to their guns.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
so you dont believe in the physical aspect of salat?
If you mean PHYSICALLY opening the book that has been called "Quran", and PHYSICALLY moving my eyes across the page, then yes, it is physical. But if you mean Physically getting on the ground, then no, that is not supported by this reading(quran).
That is another discussion... i'm not going to follow your little red herrings you like to plant in every conversation.
Let me know when you are ready to discuss it. Please let the red herring comments rest, they distract from the debate.
the point is that you dont want to physically establish salat, and you want to split the ummah in half for fasting... i dont.
Nonsense. Fisrt, PROVE the traditional salaat before you start slinging accusations.
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
You act like the UMMAH is what the sunnis do!! It is THEY who devised the sect, and we are all trying to escape it, yet you want us to remain in that sect. So keep doing what your fathers did, that is up to you, I know better and can prove it.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
So is salaat split in 5? You need to have patience and do more studying and less "just believing".
If you are going to be so narrow-minded that you can't understand why someone across the globe won't wake up 3 times at night to pray... then what else can i tell you. i am sure my points are well taken by those who are actually looking for the answer and not just sticking to their guns.
Yes, it is only a matter of time before the insults come You will ALWAYS have doubt when you thinnk about how salaat times are different around tthe world, but you want abstaining to be the same.
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Peace brother Shuaib, all,
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
There is no doubt that we should not divide ourselves (for example into sects). However, unity is a natural outcome of holding to the rope of Allah NOT of holding to the fantasies and falsehoods of sectarians.
Despite abstaining in the same time every year, we see that the so-called "ummah" (whatever that means) that you refer to is FAR from united and hence abstaining on the same time didn't help anything. Similarly, sectarians can be seen bowing and putting their forehead on the floor at the same time and yet they are far from united and even if they stand on their head or do any other acrobatics at the same time, I doubt that it will unite them.
Therefore the only thing you prove by appealing to the unity of the so-called "ummah" is that you have been listening to such empty slogans for a long time and you are simply blindly repeating them.
The ONLY way to unity is to hold to the rope of The God, the Truth wherever that leads us and NOT by holding to sectrian false traditions.
Salam,
Ayman
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salam br ayman,
nice to hear from you again. however, i'm going to have to dispel some incorrect notions you have about what i am saying, as well as perhaps some faulty logic.
it is true that the ummah is far from united. but you cannot simply conclude that since the ummah is not united, therefore anything they do is wrong.
If a clock is dismantled and each of the pieces is laid on the table... well damn, the clock is not going to work but that does not mean that each of the pieces is flawed... it's just that the pieces aren't put together in a way that will produce the desired results.
the rituals performed by muslims today are unfortunately just that, rituals and nothing more. they have a purpose, but the purpose is lost and only the acts now remain. But do not condemn each of the acts because it is not in a working system... army drills are important in strengthening the army and preparing them for challenges... but when the army is disbanded and disunited, do not condemn the drills... there's nothing wrong with the drills, it's something wrong with the army.
hopefully i have demonstrated to you what i mean, and that i am not just calling for empty slogans and "blindly" repeating them.
Ramadan, salat, and other aspects of islam are parts of the system that unfortunately are laid on the table.. separate pieces, with their functions lost since the clock itself is dismantled... army drills that are performed by individuals instead of an army, without a sense of what the drill is for or how it will be applied.
Our unity will inshallah, develop through adhering to the message of the Quran... and the message of the Quran is NOT a message that should create factions in the ummah... it should eradicate them. Any interpretations which lead to factions cannot be right.
wassalam
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Salam brother Shuaib,
it is true that the ummah is far from united. but you cannot simply conclude that since the ummah is not united, therefore anything they do is wrong.
You are the one who said that people must abstain on the same time to be "united". I simply demonstrated that what you are saying is false because people who do abstain on the same time are NOT united. Hence, abstaining or not abstaining on the same time is irrelevant to unity.
If a clock is dismantled and each of the pieces is laid on the table... well damn, the clock is not going to work but that does not mean that each of the pieces is flawed... it's just that the pieces aren't put together in a way that will produce the desired results.
Your clock is not only broken but even when assembled, it gives the wrong time. Hence, it is totally useless like all sectarian rituals.
the rituals performed by muslims today are unfortunately just that, rituals and nothing more.
Rituals are "rituals". What a momentous discovery
they have a purpose, but the purpose is lost and only the acts now remain.
If they have a purpose then they stop being a ritual and they become a process. A proces has input, output, and a purpose. For example, the "salat"/learning process has input (the great reading), output (hearing and obeying), and purpose (rememberance of The God).
On the other hand, as you made the discovery above, a ritual is just a ritual. It is not connected to purpose. Hence, rituals do not change in order for example to better achieve the purpose. On the other hand, a process is connected to purpose and hence must be continuously improved to better achieve the purpose.
But do not condemn each of the acts because it is not in a working system... army drills are important in strengthening the army and preparing them for challenges... but when the army is disbanded and disunited, do not condemn the drills... there's nothing wrong with the drills, it's something wrong with the army.
If the drills are just making 2, 4, 4, 3, 4 daily movements with a sword then the drills are indeed wrong and useless. That is why modern armies change their drills every year and now involve learning information technology, remote sensing technology, etc.
hopefully i have demonstrated to you what i mean, and that i am not just calling for empty slogans and "blindly" repeating them.
Besides demonstrating that you would not make a good army general, you have confirmed that you have been deceived by those empty slogans of unity. You have also demonstrated that you don't know that unity is an effect and not a cause or an end in itself. It is an effect of holding on to the rope of The God, the Truth. Holding to the rope of The God is the ONLY thing we should strive to. After that, unity will naturally result amongst those who have faith.
Ramadan, salat, and other aspects of islam are parts of the system that unfortunately are laid on the table.. separate pieces, with their functions lost since the clock itself is dismantled... army drills that are performed by individuals instead of an army, without a sense of what the drill is for or how it will be applied.
If you know what those terms "ramadan" and "salat" mean then please translate them.
Our unity will inshallah, develop through adhering to the message of the Quran... and the message of the Quran is NOT a message that should create factions in the ummah... it should eradicate them. Any interpretations which lead to factions cannot be right.
I hear sectarians all the time saying that we should "adhere to the message of the Quran" but this is nothing more than an empty slogan because they in fact adhere to the so-called "ummah". Your logic demonstrates how the concept of "ijma3"/popular concensus came about. You assume that an interpretation that would fall in line with the majority is the correct one. The fact is that what you are proposing is the well-known logical fallacy of "appeal to popularity". I am sorry but no reasonable person should base anything on a logical fallacy, no matter how popular.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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salams ayman,
i dont know what i've done to you that you feel compelled to try and prove me wrong even if it means purposely misunderstanding what i am trying to say. are we playing the game of lawyers here or are we trying to be constructive?
I mentioned rituals, but i think you know perfectly well what my intention was. Waking up in the morning and brushing your teeth can be described as a ritual, since it is a routine action done in the similar way each day...but it has a purpose too. When I said that the rituals have become just rituals, perhaps i was being vague but the meaning should have been clear to you... but if you want to play the game of lawyers then i will just be more careful how i phrase things. What I meant was that the rituals at one time had purpose and were part of a working system... but the meaning was lost and now they are purposeless rituals.
You are the one who said that people must abstain on the same time to be "united".
Bro, again are you playing the game of a lawyer? It is perfectly clear what I intended... and my intention was not to say that fasting at the same time MAGICALLY results in perfect harmony.
My point was that BREAKING up the fast into 2 sections for various people DAMAGES unity.
Your clock is not only broken but even when assembled, it gives the wrong time. Hence, it is totally useless like all sectarian rituals.
Do you ever just get the point? Did you even understand the analogy I was giving? Or are you just going to play games with the analogy i presented in order to clarify my points.
If the drills are just making 2, 4, 4, 3, 4 daily movements with a sword then the drills are indeed wrong and useless. That is why modern armies change their drills every year and now involve learning information technology, remote sensing technology, etc.
Again, playing the game of a lawyer. By drill OBVIOUSLY i meant a drill that prepares for battle, WHATEVER that may be. The whole point was that these things you want to dismiss, they are just that... important drills, but there have been factions already created based on OTHER things... so even though the fast is kept, because there already are factions, it will not result in the appropriate results OR its results will be greatly diminished.
Anyway, you can respond when you calm down and decide to have a constructive discussion. You ended your email that I was appealing to popularity etc etc, a ridiculous claim.
All I said was that you cannot throw away all the pieces of the clock just because it's not working. Just because the clock is stopped, it is not a license to condemn every part of it for being faulty.
IN OTHER WORDS, if you are going to claim that any particular ritual is seriously flawed... you cannot use our present DISUNITY as an EXCUSE to do it... because that can be a manifestation based on many other serious problems, like leaving the Quran and adhering more to hadith and not using their minds and closing off ijtihaad and making bid'a forbidden and scholar worship and peer-worship etc etc etc there are SO many reasons for disunity... and to make the argument that since we are disunited clearly the way we fast is incorrect, is a totally fallacious illogical argument. It might be a true statement, but you're arriving at that statement through a fallacious illogical argument. THAT was my point, my lawyer friend. (you didn't explicitly make this claim, but that is exactly what you are implying with your tirade on rituals). THAT was the point of the analogy.
Find a better argument (i.e. one that is logical), that's the bottom line.
wassalam
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Salam brother Shuaib,
i dont know what i've done to you that you feel compelled to try and prove me wrong even if it means purposely misunderstanding what i am trying to say. are we playing the game of lawyers here or are we trying to be constructive?
I don't know you and I can only understand you by what you say here. It is not my problem that what you say is illogical. If you take demanding logical arguments and exposing illogical arguments as "playing a game of lawyer" then please tell the readers of this forum what you would like them to do. Should I simply agree to your illogical arguments for the sake of "unity"? Of course not, and I wouldn't want you to agree to any illogical arguments of mine either. Appeal to unity and popularity are NOT logical arguments and that is a fact. It is not my problem that you take things personally and feel offended when I point this fact out to you.
I mentioned rituals, but i think you know perfectly well what my intention was. Waking up in the morning and brushing your teeth can be described as a ritual, since it is a routine action done in the similar way each day...but it has a purpose too.
No it is not a ritual. It is a tooth cleaning process. Hence, it is not the same as 100 years ago. People now use electric toothbrushes and Fluoride toothpaste. In the future, the way people brush their teeth will be totally different.
When I said that the rituals have become just rituals, perhaps i was being vague but the meaning should have been clear to you... but if you want to play the game of lawyers then i will just be more careful how i phrase things. What I meant was that the rituals at one time had purpose and were part of a working system... but the meaning was lost and now they are purposeless rituals.
Rituals don't have a purpose. A process has a purpose. Hence, rituals are static and mechanical while a process is dynamic and involves understanding.
Bro, again are you playing the game of a lawyer? It is perfectly clear what I intended... and my intention was not to say that fasting at the same time MAGICALLY results in perfect harmony.
My point was that BREAKING up the fast into 2 sections for various people DAMAGES unity.
Your point is baseless. The only thing that can result in unity is holding on to the rope of The God and the only thing that can break unity is not holding on to the rope of The God, the Truth.
You were unable to show any evidence from the great reading that the abstinence must be done at the same time and hence you resort to empty slogans, appeal to unity and appeal to popularity.
Do you ever just get the point? Did you even understand the analogy I was giving? Or are you just going to play games with the analogy i presented in order to clarify my points.
Your analogy is valid and I just demonstrated using your analogy that the whole can only be as good as the parts. If the parts are bad then the whole will inevitably be bad. This is a common analogy part vs whole (in this case of a clock). Again, it is not my problem that you don't understand the implications of your own analogy.
Again, playing the game of a lawyer. By drill OBVIOUSLY i meant a drill that prepares for battle, WHATEVER that may be.
Exactly, hence the drill changes and continuously improve to win the battle. You don't just keep doing the same 2,4,4,3,4 mechnical routine. If you disagree then tell us why 2,4,4,3,4 and why not 4,4,2,5,6?
The whole point was that these things you want to dismiss, they are just that... important drills, but there have been factions already created based on OTHER things... so even though the fast is kept, because there already are factions, it will not result in the appropriate results OR its results will be greatly diminished.
If they are so important then why are those who are diligently doing it losing the battle (to use your army drills analogy). Their "drills" doesn't prohibit them from evil. The fact is that the purpose of abstinance is not your fantacized unity.
Anyway, you can respond when you calm down and decide to have a constructive discussion. You ended your email that I was appealing to popularity etc etc, a ridiculous claim.
All I said was that you cannot throw away all the pieces of the clock just because it's not working. Just because the clock is stopped, it is not a license to condemn every part of it for being faulty.
You are the one who brough this analogy. Now you are not happy when I point out the fact that a clock is only as good as its parts.
IN OTHER WORDS, if you are going to claim that any particular ritual is seriously flawed... you cannot use our present DISUNITY as an EXCUSE to do it...
I am not the one who brought the EXCUSE of unity or disunity. My arguments were strictly based on the great reading and physical archeological evidence as confirmed by the great reading. YOU are the one who brought the bogus excuse of unity into the discussion.
because that can be a manifestation based on many other serious problems, like leaving the Quran and adhering more to hadith and not using their minds and closing off ijtihaad and making bid'a forbidden and scholar worship and peer-worship etc etc etc there are SO many reasons for disunity... and to make the argument that since we are disunited clearly the way we fast is incorrect, is a totally fallacious illogical argument. It might be a true statement, but you're arriving at that statement through a fallacious illogical argument. THAT was my point, my lawyer friend. (you didn't explicitly make this claim, but that is exactly what you are implying with your tirade on rituals). THAT was the point of the analogy.
Like those that you criticizee, you too are leaving the great reading, which tells you to abstain during the "shahr" of "ramadan"/extreme heat for the sake of bogus unity.
As for your slogans of unity and clock analogies, you are the one who brought them not me. It is not my problem that those analogies actually refute your argument and hence, you ended up refuting your own argument.
Find a better argument (i.e. one that is logical), that's the bottom line.
My only advice, is find an argument based on the truth from the great reading instead of empty but popular slogans that never guided anyone.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
