Knocking on the doors of atheism
-
I've told you to read all and everything on this site http//www.masjidtucson.org/
instead of putting questions here to people who are as confused as you are or even more...You can start with
Why Were We Created ?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlGood luck
-
I've told you to read all and everything on this site http//www.masjidtucson.org/
instead of putting questions here to people who are as confused as you are or even more...You can start with
Why Were We Created ?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlGood luck
I did read the site yesterday.
-
Well, I think you still have some traditional concept (or misconception) about hell.
One point is that the "punishment" should not be seen as something arbitrary but the result of our deeds. If we choose the wrong way, we are driven more to it, but if we choose the right way, we are guided further on it. Have you read Muhammad Asads translation/commentary of Quran? I think he explains this quite good. Also that instead of "God guides whom he wants to" it can be read as "God guides whom wants to be guided".The other is about believing. I have called myself atheist for some time in my life, but I always had some concept of "good deeds" and now I think it is a kind of confusion about words. If you deny the word god because it is mis-used for suppression so often, but try to live up to your ideals of solidarity and humanity, you can still be more believing than someone who verbally accepts god but is so self-rightous that he/she never questions her deeds and practically only does damage to the world. I think that by "the unbeleivers' good deeds wil not be recognized" is meant the accidental good that arises out of bad intentions. So if you save someone's life for your own benefit, it will not count as good deed.
-
One of the things that turned me off religion is the idea of hell. It seems really harsh to me that God would let you burn in hell simply because you don't believe in him. So God, created this whole universe just so that people worship him and if they don't then he will punish them forever? Sounds crazy.
Have you guys ever been burned? Maybe while cooking or putting some toast in the oven? Did you see the searing pain that racks your body just because of a tiny burn? Can you imagine what it would feel like to be thrown in hell forever? It's horrible, painful, and actually sadistic. And what is this punishment for? For killing, raping, torturing people? No, it is simply for not believing. Harsh right?
Besides, life is complicated, confusing, busy. Most people get sucked into the craziness of life from a very young age. Most never get the chance to think about spiritual issues. Will they go to hell just because of that?
I also hear a lot of religious people, especially Muslims, say that God will direct you to the right path if he wants to. That God is the one who chooses who will be led astray and who won't. My question is why? Why would God help some people and leave the rest to live a sinful life and rot in hell for all eternity? Doesn't that sound sadistic?Actually the punishment is indeed for killing/raping/torturing people. One is punished not due to the ignorance that is beyond their limits but oweing to their wilful disregard for the souls of others in committing evil.
There is NO distinguishment between "believing" and "going good deeds" in the context of judgement day. We are ranked in terms of how good we "believe" BY HOW MANY GOOD DEEDS WE HAVE. The strongest of "disbelievers" are not those who said "ok I will not believe this whatsoever" but those who lied, cheated, flayed people alive, burnt them alive, dropped acid on their faces, raped every single orifice of their bodies and threw animals into the mix, had orgies of depravity, disfigured people for life, locked them away for 16 years as sex slaves (all of these being real examples) and exerted their psuedo lordship over other humans purely for the idea that they were not to be raised.
Get that into your head that God is punishing people for their deeds and not for their ignorance. The cry of the atheist is ridiculous. One second they will say "God is going to throw me in hell for not believing He exists" then the next minute they are arguing for late trimester abortion rights and sexual depravity of all forms.
I hope you overcome this block in your perception because very few seem to even want to.
peace
-
Actually the punishment is indeed for killing/raping/torturing people. One is punished not due to the ignorance that is beyond their limits but oweing to their wilful disregard for the souls of others in committing evil.
There is NO distinguishment between "believing" and "going good deeds" in the context of judgement day. We are ranked in terms of how good we "believe" BY HOW MANY GOOD DEEDS WE HAVE. The strongest of "disbelievers" are not those who said "ok I will not believe this whatsoever" but those who lied, cheated, flayed people alive, burnt them alive, dropped acid on their faces, raped every single orifice of their bodies and threw animals into the mix, had orgies of depravity, disfigured people for life, locked them away for 16 years as sex slaves (all of these being real examples) and exerted their psuedo lordship over other humans purely for the idea that they were not to be raised.
Get that into your head that God is punishing people for their deeds and not for their ignorance. The cry of the atheist is ridiculous. One second they will say "God is going to throw me in hell for not believing He exists" then the next minute they are arguing for late trimester abortion rights and sexual depravity of all forms.
I hope you overcome this block in your perception because very few seem to even want to.
peace
This last paragraph disturbs me. Are you saying that all atheists are morally corrupt? That only believers have values? That is sad, really sad.
-
I've told you to read all and everything on this site http//www.masjidtucson.org/
instead of putting questions here to people who are as confused as you are or even more...You can start with
Why Were We Created ?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlGood luck
Come on, be serious! Do you really think a story like this, pouring emotional guilt on someone, will help them make up their mind whether this particular religion representing a particular god is the best and positive position to have?
Even if someone believes the story of a god being unable to stomp out evil and then blaming humans for not taking sides with him still does not accept the guilt associated with that over generations. Is your god so petty and unforgiving?
If I am from France, do I still have to feel guilty for every crime a Frenchmen has committed since the crusades? Should a Chinese person feel guilty for what Genghis Khan did?
Are you telling me you yourself feel guilty for one of your ancestors not taking a clear stance? Do you call this merciful? You feel you should be punished for what someone else did?
-
The cry of the atheist is ridiculous. One second they will say "God is going to throw me in hell for not believing He exists" then the next minute they are arguing for late trimester abortion rights and sexual depravity of all forms.
Would you care to qualify that statement? It seems you have some serious issues.
Do you know how ridiculous that sentence is?
Do you know how useless, irrelevant, wrong and plain slanderous the statement that all atheists are arguing "for late trimester abortion rights" really is?
What does atheism, the lack of a belief, have to do with "sexual depravity"?I suggest you learn
a. about the facts
b. some manners -
This last paragraph disturbs me. Are you saying that all atheists are morally corrupt? That only believers have values? That is sad, really sad.
You have not acquainted yourself with how 'theism' or 'atheism' are defined in the quran my friend.
Satan speaks to God directly and he is called a 'kafir'. Satan is a believer in God yet he is going to be at the bottom of the bottom of the fire. It is purely deeds that define a person's relative degree of 'theism'. God does not care about lip service. The hypocrites will also be in the lowest levels of the hell fire (4145).
My question is, do you have difficulty in processing this understanding? Is there a veil over your eyes blocking you from reading these words and understanding that NOBODY will get punished based on their lip service but purely by the content of their deeds? All I have ever recieved in response to this information from atheists is an emotionally charged accusation of slander, yet they totally gloss over the fact that people are going to be destroyed for the evils that they wilfully committed and certainly not for simply holding a certain belief or ideal in their minds.
In the quranic sense, a 'kafir' is the worst of all persons, they are morally corrupt, not inherently but by their own choice. An "atheist" can be a good person and even a "muslim" according to the quran, while a self proclaimed "Muslim" could be a kafir according to the quran.
Cry as much as you want, you will cry harder in front of God if you do not heed here and now. What am I to you? I can't guide you. All I can present you is the cold hard gritty truth which is that God is not pleased by evil doers and will certainly cause them to regret what they have done.
StopS the same freedom of statement that allows atheists to decry "Muslims" for terrorism and Catholics for sexual abuse is that same freedom of expression I am exercising by making such and such statements. Certainly most atheists do not descend to such depths of magnificent stupidity but there are a few who do and these I am pointing out. You are welcome to read what you please into other poeple's statements but desiring to colour my intended meanings of my own words is a laughable thing to even try, you and I both known this does not work, you cannot put words in others' mouths.
peace
-
StopS the same freedom of statement that allows atheists to decry "Muslims" for terrorism and Catholics for sexual abuse is that same freedom of expression I am exercising by making such and such statements. Certainly most atheists do not descend to such depths of magnificent stupidity but there are a few who do and these I am pointing out. You are welcome to read what you please into other poeple's statements but desiring to colour my intended meanings of my own words is a laughable thing to even try, you and I both known this does not work, you cannot put words in others' mouths.
Oh no, you don't!
Freedom of speech is not there so you can spread falsehoods.
"The cry of the atheist is ridiculous. One second they will say "God is going to throw me in hell for not believing He exists" then the next minute they are arguing for late trimester abortion rights and sexual depravity of all forms."
You are a liar! And now you are making it even worse instead of apologising, you are now telling everyone that all atheists accuse all Muslims of being terrorists. You are a truly terrible and sad person. You are a disgrace to all Muslims.
These are YOUR words, not mine. This is the worst behaviour I have ever come across by any Muslim! Don't EVER address me again.
-
You are a liar! And now you are making it even worse instead of apologising, you are now telling everyone that all atheists accuse all Muslims of being terrorists. You are a truly terrible and sad person. You are a disgrace to all Muslims.
These are YOUR words, not mine. This is the worst behaviour I have ever come across by any Muslim! Don't EVER address me again.
Wow. What purpose does it serve to put someone down calling her terrible, sad, disgrace? I know things can get emotionally charged and quite upsetting. Why not just state our feelings of how angry we feel or upset/ offended by a statement made but please let's not resort to name calling and putting someone down.
StopS would you kindly consider removing your post or toning it down a bit or a lot.
-
You have not acquainted yourself with how 'theism' or 'atheism' are defined in the quran my friend.
Satan speaks to God directly and he is called a 'kafir'. Satan is a believer in God yet he is going to be at the bottom of the bottom of the fire. It is purely deeds that define a person's relative degree of 'theism'. God does not care about lip service. The hypocrites will also be in the lowest levels of the hell fire (4145).
My question is, do you have difficulty in processing this understanding? Is there a veil over your eyes blocking you from reading these words and understanding that NOBODY will get punished based on their lip service but purely by the content of their deeds? All I have ever recieved in response to this information from atheists is an emotionally charged accusation of slander, yet they totally gloss over the fact that people are going to be destroyed for the evils that they wilfully committed and certainly not for simply holding a certain belief or ideal in their minds.
In the quranic sense, a 'kafir' is the worst of all persons, they are morally corrupt, not inherently but by their own choice. An "atheist" can be a good person and even a "muslim" according to the quran, while a self proclaimed "Muslim" could be a kafir according to the quran.
Cry as much as you want, you will cry harder in front of God if you do not heed here and now. What am I to you? I can't guide you. All I can present you is the cold hard gritty truth which is that God is not pleased by evil doers and will certainly cause them to regret what they have done.
StopS the same freedom of statement that allows atheists to decry "Muslims" for terrorism and Catholics for sexual abuse is that same freedom of expression I am exercising by making such and such statements. Certainly most atheists do not descend to such depths of magnificent stupidity but there are a few who do and these I am pointing out. You are welcome to read what you please into other poeple's statements but desiring to colour my intended meanings of my own words is a laughable thing to even try, you and I both known this does not work, you cannot put words in others' mouths.
peace
Did aggression ever prove to be an effective way of presenting an argument?
-
You are both welcome to gloss over the actual substance and content of the arguments presented herein and instead direct some ad hominems & projections of aggression my way but let's see what you say when you stand before your creator.
So it really is true, that there is a veil before you. Prove me wrong. It is literally as if you cannot read the words on the screen in front of you, as if you cannot even process them. I am amazed.
Peace.
-
You are both welcome to gloss over the actual substance and content of the arguments presented herein and instead direct some ad hominems & projections of aggression my way but let's see what you say when you stand before your creator.
So it really is true, that there is a veil before you. Prove me wrong. It is literally as if you cannot read the words on the screen in front of you, as if you cannot even process them. I am amazed.
Peace.
I cannot respond to an argument you did not make. All you are doing is throwing bile, threats and accusations. How can I respond to that?
And I honestly think you are the one who should worry about what you say to your creator if that is how you talk to people. El deen akhlak. -
IAMOP could be a bit more polished in her delivery. But instead of being critical with the way IAMOP presented her points, I would overlook that and think about what she is saying. now, there are some things she says which I don't agree about atheist but will address that later.
Do you disagree with the following of what IAMOP said and if so, why?
One is punished not due to the ignorance that is beyond their limits but oweing to their wilful disregard for the souls of others in committing evil.
There is NO distinguishment between "believing" and "going good deeds" in the context of judgement day. We are ranked in terms of how good we "believe" BY HOW MANY GOOD DEEDS WE HAVE. The strongest of "disbelievers" are not those who said "ok I will not believe this whatsoever" but those who lied, cheated, flayed people alive, burnt them alive, dropped acid on their faces, raped every single orifice of their bodies and threw animals into the mix, had orgies of depravity, disfigured people for life, locked them away for 16 years as sex slaves (all of these being real examples) and exerted their psuedo lordship over other humans purely for the idea that they were not to be raised.
God is punishing people for their deeds and not for their ignorance.
Satan speaks to God directly and he is called a 'kafir'. Satan is a believer in God yet he is going to be at the bottom of the bottom of the fire. It is purely deeds that define a person's relative degree of 'theism'. God does not care about lip service. The hypocrites will also be in the lowest levels of the hell fire (4145).
NOBODY will get punished based on their lip service but purely by the content of their deeds? ....people are going to be destroyed for the evils that they wilfully committed and certainly not for simply holding a certain belief or ideal in their minds.
In the quranic sense, a 'kafir' is the worst of all persons, they are morally corrupt, not inherently but by their own choice. An "atheist" can be a good person and even a "muslim" according to the quran, while a self proclaimed "Muslim" could be a kafir according to the quran.
@confused.
- Do you agree or disagree with what IAMOP is saying about what believing in God means?
- do you have issues with just hell and the description of hell in the Koran regardless of who goes to hell? Do you find it very disturbing?
- is it your understanding that a person who does not believe god exists or the life hereafter regardless of his good deeds automatically goes to hell? If so, where did you get this understanding? What is your understanding based on?
- what does "believing in god" mean to you?
- what is it that you find appalling about hell? That hell exists? Who the inmate of hell are going to be? Who do you think will be the inmates of hell?
- what is your understanding of God? What would you say is the essence of God? How would you depict him, characterize or portray God? And what is your understanding of God based on?
Instead of going all over the place and getting all emotionally charged with the tone and going on a warning, attack, defense modes, let's get to the root of the confusion which many have and see where the problem is with the understanding. Lets break it down. Addressing one point at a time trying to understand. Could we please refrain from personal attacks as it really distracts and doesn't serve much purpose.
-
Pray @Confused why did you open this thread?
To spread confusion? To set a platform for the display of these women's egos?
Is it to boast with rebellious atheism you decided to embrace?
Or you need some help and support to return to the Right Path?"It is to be recalled that the most important or basic doctrine?the central theme?of the Qur'an is that God is ONE. The Qur'an teaches that God will forgive any sin of a repentant transgressor; but one offense He will not forgive is that of ascribing partners to Him (3953; 448; 4116 ...)."
So in my opinion, atheism is, in a way, setting a competitive idea (partner) next to God.
One is either a believer or a disbeliever, so let's not complicate!
Peace
-
Peace All.
Let us see if we can let Qoran speak. ( Of course one can disagree with the translation, produce their own or even claim whatever they want to.. )he discussion should never be personal.
What do we make of the following
O children of Adam, do not let the devil dupe you as he did when he caused the eviction of your parents from Paradise, and the removal of their garments to expose their bodies. He and his tribe see you, while you do not see them. We appoint the devils as companions of those who do not believe.
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and God has commanded us to do it." Say, "God never advocates sin. Are you saying about God what you do not know?"
Say, "My Lord advocates justice, and to stand devoted to Him alone at every place of Service/worship. You shall devote your service/worship absolutely to Him alone. Just as He initiated you, you will ultimately go back to Him."
Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of God, yet they believe that they are guided.
O children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among you, and recite My revelations to you, those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
As for those who reject our revelations, and are too arrogant to uphold them, they have incurred Hell, wherein they abide forever.
Who is more evil than those who invent lies about God, or reject His revelations? These will get their share, in accordance with the scripture, then, when our messengers (Angels) come to terminate their lives, they will say, "Where are the idols you used to implore beside God?" They will say, "They have abandoned us." They will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.
He will say, "Enter with the previous communities of jinns and humans into Hell." Every time a group enters, they will curse their ancestral group. Once they are all in it, the latest one will say of the previous one, "Our Lord, these are the ones who misled us. Give them double the retribution of Hell." He will say, "Each receives double, but you do not know."
The ancestral group will say to the later group, "Since you had an advantage over us, taste the retribution for your own sins."
Rejecting God's Revelations
Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.
They have incurred Hell as an abode; they will have barriers above them. We thus requite the transgressors.
As for those who believe and lead a righteous life - we never burden any soul beyond its means - these will be the dwellers of Paradise. They abide in it forever.
We will remove all jealousy from their hearts. Rivers will flow beneath them, and they will say, "God be praised for guiding us. We could not possibly be guided, if it were not that God has guided us. The messengers of our Lord did bring the truth." They will be called "This is your Paradise. You have inherited it, in return for your works."
The dwellers of Paradise will call the dwellers of Hell "We have found our Lord's promise to be the truth, have you found your Lord's promise to be the truth?" They will say, "Yes." An announcer between them will announce "God's condemnation has befallen the transgressors;
"who repel from the path of God, and strive to make it crooked, and, with regard to the Hereafter, they are disbelievers."
A barrier separates them, while the Purgatory* is occupied by people who recognize each side by their looks. They will call the dwellers of Paradise "Peace be upon you." They did not enter (Paradise) through wishful thinking.
*(746-49 Initially, there will be 4 places (1) the High Heaven, (2) the Lower Heaven, (3) the Purgatory, and (4) Hell. The Purgatory will be annexed into the Lower Heaven.)
When they turn their eyes towards the dwellers of Hell, they will say, "Our Lord, do not put us with these wicked people."
The Majority Doomed? Only God decides?
The dwellers of the Purgatory will call on people they recognize by their looks, saying, "Your great numbers did not avail you in any way, nor did your arrogance.
"Are those the people you swore that God will never touch them with mercy?" (The people in the Purgatory will then be told,) "Enter Paradise; you have nothing to fear, nor will you grieve."
A food for thought.
Whatever you want to do, you are free to believe or disbelieve? Is this true or made up tales? I guess we will find out on the day of judgement?Peace all.
-
I will stand firmly by my words. Show me a single point where I have thrown bile, slander or anything of the sort. As compared to a person throwing genuine ad hominems in my direction. When I describe the general pulse of atheistic/"humanistic" beliefs in this day and age, I am accused of throwing slander. Are you that offended by the beliefs of your fellows? You can go onto ANY forum on the web discussing religion and you will come up with debates left right and centre. And a lot of them will contain ideas about turning the Middle East into a glass car park (aka nuclear bombs), or things about dirty terrorists and so on. Describing the factual state of affairs is not slander or bile, any more than holding such of those beliefs is a slander to oneself.
Don't believe me about the late trimester abortion rights & sexual depravity? There are many things like this, explore the web. This is the general pulse of the "free" thinking movement. Just as the general pulse of the "Islamic" movement is to blow each other up and lock away women. You will be saddened and sickened by what you find. This is the worst of the worst. But to ignore these elephants in the room is entirely an evil thing to do regardless of which party does it. They will come to the forefront whether we conceal them or not.
But they all stem from one thing the belief that you are not to be raised. That it's okay to steal that chocolate bar when nobody is looking (or scam ?10 billion in a back room deal with your fellow trustees), it's okay to take some liberties with someone else's life because after all, you're gone and who cares. Burn that guy who stole a sack of potatos to death, he deserved it because he made you angry. Purposelessness, futility, meaninglessness, nihilism. This will turn a person insane to the point their ancient mammalian brain starts taking over and exerting dominion over their neocortex, their frontal lobes start to atrophy from years of non-use and they turn into a pleasure seeking beast of burden. Just because you are afraid to even acknowledge this fundamental aspect of every human's nature does not mean I am.
For the record I am offended by the beliefs of some of my fellow muslims but I accept that wholesale that they will meet their lord. Still, I have been on these forums for just a few years short of a decade and on others for longer than that, and I have seen this exact debate on hell hundreds of times, each time culminating in the exact same fashion. So tell me, what's new? What is this new argument that you are going to present that will suddenly break the mould? For what it is worth, you have not said a single thing to differentiate yourself from the rest.
And I have been tactful many times in the past. All that has lead to "give them an inch, they will take a mile" syndrome. Next thing we have all these lost persons telling young kids who have just joined up that God doesn't really matter and do what you want, you won't be raised up. They might get challenged but then they'll come up with all manner of hocus pocus to defend their frail whisperings of Satan. And to a 15 year old kid who hasn't really acquainted themselves with the word of God, that can be a very hard thing to answer against. So remind me why I should stand by and watch people defend falsehood as if all truth lay side by side with falsehood in this reality?
When are you going to dissect the subject of my argument? It's easy to throw around words and ad hominems left and right but let's be clear. I operate from the world of scientific thought. In this world it does not matter how emotional you get. What matters is who is speaking logically verifiable sense and what matters is that these facts hold up in a debate. Emotions can only cloud a person's perception of the truth. Your ego is useless, get rid of it and then perhaps we can talk. As it stands, we are like walls to each other and this will not change.
Also justamuslim, I am male for the record )
Peace
-
StopS would you kindly consider removing your post or toning it down a bit or a lot.
Sorry, no. There is a limit. I treat people with a basic degree of politeness and empathy. Even though I can't expect that back, there is one thing I am sensitive with the truth.
But the whole issue is over and done with. The person is set to "ignore" and that is what I will do. -
Peace All.
The" truth". Where is it? I left this one because it deserves to be Alone.
Quoran has the truth folks! A matter of life and death. I will continue
We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.
Are they waiting until all (its prophecies) are fulfilled? The day such fulfilment comes to pass, those who disregarded it in the past will say, "The messengers of our Lord have brought the truth. Are there any intercessors to intercede on our behalf? Would you send us back, so that we change our behaviour, and do better works than what we did?" They have lost their souls, and their own innovations have caused their doom.
Peace.
-
Peace all,
I posted this on another thread but I think that this is relevant to what's going on here.
Like I said before, God DOES NOT lead one astray and control all actions of your life just to throw you in Hell-fire against your will. From what I understand, His system is a deterministic system. We're not puppets on a play!
Here's the link to the post I made which presents an article and a thorough forum post explaining the phrases "whom He wills"/"if He had willed" and what I mean by a deterministic system.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604718.msg314966#msg314966
I hope this helps those who read it.
Peace! sun