Knocking on the doors of atheism
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God created Iblees as well, so of course God is the creator of both good and bad which are a dichotomy only for the feeble human mind, but not in relativity-driven objective reality which we cannot perceive, because a human simply doesn't have enough neurons to do that, same as a monkey has not sufficient neurons to play chess!
If god created bad, which we see in the form of satan or Iblees, what form did god create that is good? What exactly is "relativity-driven objective reality"? Are you making this up? Either something is relative or objective, so this is an oxymoron. There is nothing more real than reality, so this is also nonsensical.
Don't you see that there is God even at the bottom of the devil's heart?
Would you mind providing just a little bit of evidence before presenting this as though it were a fact?
Well, that's for sure God is running everything!
Would you mind providing just a little bit of evidence before presenting this as though it were a fact?
Hell is not created yet, but disbelievers will go there by their own choice, they are just choosing to do so. Hell is a sort of metaphor, as well as Paradise is, and you cannot force anyone into the Paradise, can you?
Well, if I understand the concept, then believers, whether good or bad don't need to do much.
Equally, the mere doubting will get me into hell and eternal punishment.
Is it a metaphor? Well, then I don't have to worry, do I? Anyone can do as they please. But then what else in the Koran is only "a sort of metaphor"?The whole topic is rather simple, isn't it one is either a believer or a disbeliever!
I simply cannot understand why fuss so much about it all?Nope, as I explained to you before it is a lot more complicated than you think.
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Peace, StopS.
Belief can be a choice.
Example many Muslims (Christians too, for that matter) choose to ignore the facts surrounding the theory of evolution and instead choose to prioritise the religious creation story, even if it does not really collide with it.
The same goes for cosmogony and abiogenesis.Atheists choose to insist on evidence, theists choose to apply faith. I used to apply faith until I grew out of it during maturity. I chose to do that. Neither theism nor atheism is an illness or condition.
I partially disagree. Religious fundamentalists reject those scientific determinations because their theological convictions teach them otherwise. It's not particularly because they choose not to accept reality. There are still Muslims in Arabic countries who teach that the Earth is flat and sitting on a trail of camels! Yes, they're choosing to accept nonsense; but only because they have a preestablished faith in their theological principles - in this case, hadiyths that teach that foolishness... Can I wake up one morning, say, "Hey, I want to believe in angels and demons today," and actually believe it instantaneously? Of course not. It has to be conditioned and established. Otherwise, I'm just claiming to believe it; I don't actually believe in it.
And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.
Peace,
Ahmad
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And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.
I have never heard of this generalized standpoint before. Now is this standpoint of an atheist and is it based on evidence as atheist seem to be all up on evidence? theism being an illness called delusion is based on what facts? If it is an illness, is it described in medical literature? Do you have evidence to back up this standpoint?
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Like I said
If god is all powerful he can provide the evidence I need.
If god is all knowing he knows what evidence I need.
If god is all merciful he will provide the evidence I need.And like I said you can't reject something for which there is no evidence.
Ok I am not God. So tell us what evidence you need. What would you consider to be an evidence needed for you to believe in God?
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Peace, justamuslim.
I have never heard of this generalized standpoint before. Now is this standpoint of an atheist and is it based on evidence as atheist seem to be all up on evidence? theism being an illness called delusion is based on what facts? If it is an illness, is it described in medical literature? Do you have evidence to back up this standpoint?
Here's a definition for delusion
"A delusion is a false, unshakeable idea or belief which is out of keeping with the patient?s educational, cultural and social background; it is held with extraordinary conviction and subjective certainty" (Sims, 1995).
According to the dictionary terminology, delusion is "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." Does this apply to theological convictions? Of course it does! I'm not claiming to be an atheist (although I'm not denying the idea of being one either); I'm simply a rational thinker. The tenets of religious belief have been disproven time and time again. Here are a few examples
- Creation of the universe - debunked by modern cosmology
- Theological generation of species - debunked by modern biology (natural selection)
- The (modern) universe being created in six days - debunked by all physical, chemical, geological and biological sciences
And this isn't even referring to the "miraculous" happenings found in the Bible and Koran - e.g. talking snakes and donkeys; sticks turning into serpents; healing sick people with a touch; raising dead people to life with a word; transforming clay birds into real (living) birds; chopping up pigeons, placing the pieces on separate surfaces, calling out to them, and causing them to reassemble and come back to life; commanding the sun to 'stand still' and achieving those results; splitting the moon in half by pointing at it; flying to heaven on the back of a donkey; etc. Those things are totally nonsensical. Yet, religious people believe in all of those things wholeheartedly, despite the fact that they're physically and logically impossible. If that's not delusion, I don't know what is!
Now, my intent is not to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. However, there's nothing wrong with rational, critical thought. Personally, I feel that most religious people are delusional, and it's no different from the perception that others would have of me had I said that I believe that Santa Claus lives on the North Pole and miraculously drops packages into millions of chimneys in a single night. Again, it's just my position on the matter. If you disagree with my viewpoint, you are entitled to do so.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salaam confused
I permit myself to give you "a diagnosis" based on my own experience.
Apart God and Quran, I rejected all what you rejected but i now believe more than before.
If you are coherent with yourself, you cannot reject GOD because of all hersays that idolaters and atheists said about him.Knocking on the doors of atheism means that you freed your mind from many things your reason told you it was lies.
However, knocking on the doors of atheism in the free-minds.org website means that you are also knocking on doors of God and that the link with him is not dropped yet.
Now, you have the choice
1- use your free mind to go closer to god.
2- use your free mind to go far away from GOD.For me, you HAVE ONLY STARTED to drop the link with idolatry (following blindly ancestors, false "scientists" and hersays of people on what God said).
Doubting is a pillar of reason.
I think that "Exposing his doubts to God", like you have done, can be the beginning of a sincere relation with him.Like you, after going out from the idolatry i thought it was islam, i knocked the doors of atheism but i never entered there even if i discovered more and more lies in "traditional islam".
However, i have to recognize that reading atheists helped me to wash my brain from idolatric islam.
But reading quran with new eyes and new brain helped me to wash my brain from atheists lies and removed all what remained from "traditionnal islam".Peace
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Like you, after going out from the idolatry i thought it was islam, i knocked the doors of atheism but i never entered there even if i discovered more and more lies in "traditional islam".
However, i have to recognize that reading atheists helped me to wash my brain from idolatric islam.
But reading quran with new eyes and new brain helped me to wash my brain from atheists lies and removed all what remained from "traditionnal islam".Peace
Perhaps it would help if you elaborated addressing the specific confusion that Confused is having. Examples of specific atheist lies.
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Peace,
There was a time when I disputed with other faiths and atheists and other belief systems,
it was a continuing battle of ideas, but as I incorporated daily reading of the Quran,
salat and zakat in my life I understood that it was not about anyone or anything else, but between
me and my lord. The need for consensus slowly slipped away and the ayats of our lord
became truer than everIn the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."I no longer care what somebody else believes, God says he will decide between us
on judgement day. God says that we will be tested by one another.Religious tolerance is a great thing because God did not create us all alike.
I accept the Quran when it says fight those in war who agress you but if they
desist leave them be.There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected
I realize that God does not want certain people to believe
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.
Peace O0
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Peace, StopS.
I partially disagree. Religious fundamentalists reject those scientific determinations because their theological convictions teach them otherwise. It's not particularly because they choose not to accept reality. There are still Muslims in Arabic countries who teach that the Earth is flat and sitting on a trail of camels! Yes, they're choosing to accept nonsense; but only because they have a preestablished faith in their theological principles - in this case, hadiyths that teach that foolishness... Can I wake up one morning, say, "Hey, I want to believe in angels and demons today," and actually believe it instantaneously? Of course not. It has to be conditioned and established. Otherwise, I'm just claiming to believe it; I don't actually believe in it.
And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.
Peace,
Ahmad
I think I understand you 100% and yes, I agree, there are instances where it does not make any sense.
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Ok I am not God. So tell us what evidence you need. What would you consider to be an evidence needed for you to believe in God?
I am also not god, so how can I know what is possible and what the right way is?
I can only go by what is offered by humans and that is truly not sufficient. What is sufficient in your eyes and what would convince you if you came from a remote island and had never heard of the concept of a god?
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I think I understand you 100% and yes, I agree, there are instances where it does not make any sense.
Does it make sense for a limited mind to understand the limitless? Finite entity to understand the infinite?
You understand only what you are capable of understanding, within your finite existence and perceptions.
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If you are coherent with yourself, you cannot reject GOD because of all hersays that idolaters and atheists said about him.
May I ask whether for you, the alternative and opposite of Islam is idolatry?
If a person does not accept the ideology of Islam that person automatically is an idolater. No other alternative possible?Oh and just by the way an atheist does not see any evidence for the existence of a god and cannot say anything about what has no evidence.
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Peace,
There was a time when I disputed with other faiths and atheists and other belief systems,
it was a continuing battle of ideas, but as I incorporated daily reading of the Quran,
salat and zakat in my life I understood that it was not about anyone or anything else, but between
me and my lord. The need for consensus slowly slipped away and the ayats of our lord
became truer than everIn the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."I no longer care what somebody else believes, God says he will decide between us
on judgement day. God says that we will be tested by one another.Religious tolerance is a great thing because God did not create us all alike.
I accept the Quran when it says fight those in war who agress you but if they
desist leave them be.There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected
I realize that God does not want certain people to believe
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.
Peace O0
Excellent post, as always!
Thank you @hawkninetynine
sunpeace
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Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected
Come on, I have explained this so many times a person cannot reject something for which there is no evidence of its existence.
Likewise, a person cannot be rejected by something without proof for its existence.So what you are saying is nonsensical. I understand what you would LIKE, but we can't always have what we like or want.
Why do you think that not everyone is supposed to believe? "I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship" 5156
Does that sound like only a few elitist humans should jump on board and submit? -
Perhaps it would help if you elaborated addressing the specific confusion that Confused is having. Examples of specific atheist lies.
Salaam justamuslim
Atheist lies are based, for me, on these pillars
1- deducing from lies and misunderstanding of "scholars" that God is lie.
2- attributing crimes of auto proclaimed muslims to God
3- bad translation of Quran and then attack of the mistranslation.from the scientific point of view, they attribute what we attribute to GOD to a GOD named Chance.
They have never proved that "chance" can create universe, earth and life.
Physical laws are very precise. Life is the highest technology we can see. How can be this "by chance" ?Atheits want people to believe that "big scientists" are atheists. That is not true. Biggest scientists believed in GOD or , at least, to a superior intelligence.
The last prophet of atheism, the so called Darwin, made no experience and build a theory without even knowing what is genetics. it is the believer called Gregor Mendel who discovered laws of genetics.
All what Darwin said is that "chance" produce mutations. Environnement select good mutations and let them reproduce. If you ask them what is a good mutation, they respond "good mutation is the one who reproduced". It is a tautology that proove nothing.Life and physical laws are described by God as "ayats" which is the same word applied to verses. In fact atheists are to "ayats of science" what are islamic scholars to "ayats of quran".
Rejecting atheism is a similar process to rejecting inventions of islamic scholars. It is a litte more difficult and confused have to study to achieve this goal.When I was 25, I moved to Australia. The experience was quite an eye opener. When you see a country that is so diverse, that has so many cultures and religions, it really changes you. it makes you think about the idea of a "one true religion" again. Is it possible that all these people are wrong and going to hell, and that only the people who practice one faith (whether Islam or Christianity or whatever) will go to paradise? Did God create us here just to worship him, and if we don't then he will throw us in hell? Isn't that a bit harsh?
I will make some remarks on this quote
it makes you think about the idea of a "one true religion" again
Islam is the religion of Abraham, Moses, Issa and so on. Confused is possibly confusing islam with a new "religion" brought by Muhammad. Many "muslims" thinks that Moses was a jew and that Isaa was a christian and deduce that religion of Moses and religion of Issa and religion of Muhammad are three different religions.
Confused would have to think about the possibility that the word Muslim to God has not the same meaning for God than for islamic Scholars. It is possible that, according to God definition, as explained in quran, there are between christians, jews and "others" people who are much more muslim that the so called muslims by islamic scholars.
Did God create us here just to worship him.
It is possible that confused is making confusion on the word worship. Perhaps he is thinking about rituals he cannot find in quran. Perhaps he believed the lie that says that God send us a 600 pages book only for spirituality and ask us to see "other details of worshipping" in books he never send. Perhaps he is reliyng on falses explanations of words of Gods for understanding words of Gods.And if we don't then he will throw us in hell? Isn't that a bit harsh?
it depend on the the "contract" signed before this life. If we accepted this rule, then it is not harsh.7172 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But man accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.this leads to other importants questions. The more important is Why God proposed us "the contract" ?
Searching on the web, on this site can help but Quran promised one thing
If one come to god humbly, putting faith only in him, GOD will find the way to explain him "things".Questions of Confused are good questions. However if he put his faith in free-minds.org and his members, he will, i think, understand nothing.
Only God can explain islam and confused have "to work" and proove his sincerity to GOD.Peace
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May I ask whether for you, the alternative and opposite of Islam is idolatry?
If a person does not accept the ideology of Islam that person automatically is an idolater. No other alternative possible?Oh and just by the way an atheist does not see any evidence for the existence of a god and cannot say anything about what has no evidence.
Salaam StopS
Please read the two first pages of Quran
There is three main Types of Humans17 The path of those You have blessed (category 1), not of those who have incurred the wrath (category 2), nor the misguided (category 3).
Page two explain more
-1- true believers
-2- unbelievers (atheists, pagans ....)
-3- People that believe that they are better guided that others, make sin in name of God and misguid other people that take them as "tutors". That's idolatry.i don't know who is 2 and who is 3 in 17
i am not an unbelievers and i try no to be an idolater. it is why a choose noshirk as pseudo.Peace
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Peace,
Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejectedNot entirely.
I was an Atheist, then agnostic. and God still guided me. i was a nice person. God guides the nice people. There is something called Repentance and Reforming.see
God's Systems of Guidance and Misguidance
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603904.0Again, i will cite the the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran, as it helped me attain 100% certainty that God existed
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.html -
Come on, I have explained this so many times a person cannot reject something for which there is no evidence of its existence.
Likewise, a person cannot be rejected by something without proof for its existence.False
It is not up to you to decide, that is what judgement day is all about, it has nothing
to do with your very, very limited understanding, this is the deen of Islam where
God has the final say. That is the separation between you and me.Likewise, a person cannot be rejected by something without proof for its existence.
The Quran is proof to believers.
Peace O0
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Atheist lies are based, for me, on these pillars
1- deducing from lies and misunderstanding of "scholars" that God is lie.
2- attributing crimes of auto proclaimed muslims to God
3- bad translation of Quran and then attack of the mistranslation.Wow, you have some horribly warped misconceptions there! Do you have an example of an "atheist lie"? You use the word "lie" a lot. Is the way you use it really correct? Does any atheist ever make a claim that a "god is a lie"? I was 12 and did not know of scholars or even what a scholar is when I lost my faith and became a rationalist. Do you regularly experience really primitive atheists who are unable to differentiate between a Muslim and a terrorist? If the existing translations are so bad, why don't you make one which does not convey any lies? Just putting the blame on atheists for trusting what 40 odd translators have translated over the last 1000 years is a bit unfair, I think.
from the scientific point of view, they attribute what we attribute to GOD to a GOD named Chance.
They have never proved that "chance" can create universe, earth and life.
Physical laws are very precise. Life is the highest technology we can see. How can be this "by chance" ?Oh dear! Who taught you that nonsense? Have you been listening to Zakir Naik? Naughty naughty!
- Atheists have no connection to science. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
- Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
- Maybe people or individuals have, but that is not associated in any way with atheism. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
- There are very few physical laws and the rest is anything but precise. Humans can barely understand gravity. We have practically 0 knowledge when it comes to physics when applied to the very large or the very small.
- Yes, there is occasionally the element of chance, but not the way you seem to misunderstand it.
Atheits want people to believe that "big scientists" are atheists. That is not true. Biggest scientists believed in GOD or , at least, to a superior intelligence.
The last prophet of atheism, the so called Darwin, made no experience and build a theory without even knowing what is genetics. it is the believer called Gregor Mendel who discovered laws of genetics.
All what Darwin said is that "chance" produce mutations. Environnement select good mutations and let them reproduce. If you ask them what is a good mutation, they respond "good mutation is the one who reproduced". It is a tautology that proove nothing.Shhh, not so loud. This is very, very wrong!
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Not entirely.
I was an Atheist, then agnostic. and God still guided me. i was a nice person. God guides the nice people. There is something called Repentance and Reforming.
seeGod's Systems of Guidance and Misguidance
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603904.0
Again, i will cite the the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran, as it helped me attain 100% certainty that God existed
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.htmlPeace youssef4342
Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected
You are right my friend, I should have added "except those that repent"
Thank you for the correction.
O0