Knocking on the doors of atheism
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Peace, good logic.
You said,
The" truth". Where is it? I left this one because it deserves to be Alone.
Quoran has the truth folks! A matter of life and death.
You made the determination that the Qur'aan has the truth. How do you authenticate this statement? Are you implying that the Qur'aan is absolutely true, merely because it says that it's the truth?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad.
Yes indeed
Because Qoran says it has the truth. It says it comes from the Lord of the universe. It also says God is the truth and " other than God" is falsehood.Actually I will add this. Those who do not accept the truth( per Qoran )whatever else they claim to have will not be the truth. They are diverted from it, even if think otherwise
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless of it.
Those who reject our revelations and the meeting of the Hereafter, their works are nullified. Are they requited only for what they committed?
According to Qoran, of course.
Peace.
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IAMOP..... I think your content was lost with your confrontational tone and issues that you seem to have with atheists it seems and the manner in which you approach.
I am glad that Confused posted this thread as clearly she is not alone and I personally know of people who rejected "Islam", Koran and God based on what people say, portray and practice including some in this forum and not truly understanding God and Islam. We should discuss and address post like this. Now, what purpose would it serve and hope you would accomplish though by being confrontational asking "do you have veil over your eye" and then answering your own question by stating "you have a veil"? Although you might be right and know it is right, don't you think that it would easily turn off or away someone who truly is confused and lost?
So lets take it easy on Confused and others like her and not go ballistic )
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Peace All.
Folks God is also Merciful. Whatever one does if
As for those who committed sins, then repented thereafter and believed, your Lord - after this - is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
According to Qoran of course.
Peace.
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So in my opinion, atheism is, in a way, setting a competitive idea (partner) next to God.
One is either a believer or a disbeliever, so let's not complicate!Atheism is not, in any way, setting up anything in competition with anyone.
Let me - once again - make this VERY clear atheism is a reaction. It makes no claims and takes no positive action.
Atheism is the lack of belief. It does not propagate anything. A theist believes there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist does not believe there is evidence for the existence of a god.
That's all. Not more. Not less.Setting up anything next to god would be totally illogical as, for the atheist, there is no evidence for the existence of that god, so how does an atheist set up a partner next to something which the atheist does not see any existence of? It's nonsensical.
If theists stop claiming they believe there is evidence for the existence of a god, atheism immediately disappears.
If evidence for the existence of a god is found, atheism immediately disappears.I hope I have managed to clear this up, as these misconceptions are quite common.
Next step is there evidence for the existence of a god? No. So if a person needs a god in their life that person abstains and until evidence is found simply suspends judgement. That means there are 3 states, not just 2.
Then you have to define what it is that there is belief in or not and what this belief encompasses. You still get reasonable belief or empirical belief. Sorry, it's not that simplistic once you start looking into it.Lastly, atheists are highly individualistic. Atheists have very little in common and disagree about almost everything. Hardly any atheist is a scientist. So making statements such as "atheists think ..." or "atheists say ..." are most probably incorrect as they differ so much.
What other ideas or impressions do you or people here have of atheists?
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Peace all,
I posted this on another thread but I think that this is relevant to what's going on here.
Like I said before, God DOES NOT lead one astray and control all actions of your life just to throw you in Hell-fire against your will. From what I understand, His system is a deterministic system. We're not puppets on a play!
Here's the link to the post I made which presents an article and a thorough forum post explaining the phrases "whom He wills"/"if He had willed" and what I mean by a deterministic system.
I hope this helps those who read it.
Peace! sun
If I have a misconception here, I will need help
He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants; 226
But lo! many are led astray by their own lusts through ignorance. 6119
Then Allah leaves in error whom He pleases and He guides whom He pleases. 144The devil also misleads This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader. 2815
Based on what this says it seems that people who don't want to know or are deemed unworthy for some reason are actively mislead.
There are almost 100 sentences all saying the same thing non-believers will go to hell.
Just 1 example Those are the ones whose deeds have gone to waste; and in the Fire they shall remain forever. 917
This means that believers will be rewarded and non-believers will be punished. So far, so good.
The real question in my mind however is will good deeds of non-believers be considered?Well, in 2217 it says whoever of you turns away from his faith and dies an infidel, such people are those whose deeds will go to waste in this world and in the Hereafter, and they are people of the Fire. They shall be there forever
which means that regardless of what a person does, the non-belief will invariably lead to hell.
Taking both sets of information together means a non-believer will go to hell, regardless of good deeds or bad and a believer, even if only bad deeds are present, will be rewarded with heaven.
If you attribute your belief with omniscience, this excludes any form of individualistic choice.
Example
If Allah knows I will commit a sin, such as fornication, will I get punished even though I changed my mind after only thinking about it?I'd love to know what you think about this and if I have made a thinking or logical error.
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Peace StopS.
What kind of evidence would satisfy everyone?
Quote If evidence for the existence of a god is found, atheism immediately disappears.
Short from God himself showing up , some will never believe, no matter what other evidence is brought up?.
Peace.
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Peace StopS.
What kind of evidence would satisfy everyone?
Short from God himself showing up , some will never believe, no matter what other evidence is brought up?.
Peace.
The thing is if God is indeed all knowing and all powerful, he could easily show us he exists individually because God, by definition would know what would convince us or would you disagree?.
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Peace StopS.
What kind of evidence would satisfy everyone?
Quote If evidence for the existence of a god is found, atheism immediately disappears.
Short from God himself showing up , some will never believe, no matter what other evidence is brought up?.
Peace.
If god is all powerful he can provide the evidence I need.
If god is all knowing he knows what evidence I need.
If god is all merciful he will provide the evidence I need. -
I would like to state my beliefs so you all know where I stand. I believe in God and in the life hereafter where each soul will have to take responsibility and accountability for how s/he has lived this life. Good deeds will be rewarded and bad deeds will be punished. And punishment will be tailored to the individual and nothing will be undeserved. This is my fundamental belief independent of any scripture.
None of us will know for sure till death. But I choose to believe in God. I am yet to lose anything from believing in God. I have not been harmed in anyway from believing in God. It is a good thing. it is comforting to me. I have been through a lot some of which I have shared here but much I haven't and God has helped me through a lot and continues to. I never feel alone. God has been the only constant thing in my life. people come and go in and out of my life some leaving me hurting. possessions i have owned and lost but above all God has been constant. An atheist could argue that I could have done it on my own without God and don't need God to get me through the day. I am yet to hear a convincing argument though of why I shouldn't believe in God from an atheist. as human beings, we need a sense of belonging, need to be beloved, comforted, that feeling of security and protection....God provides that for me. I am sure an atheist would ask how. My response would be, if you don't believe it then you will not understand. Even when I am not going through stuff needing God, it only makes sense to me to believe in God regardless of needs. God doesn't just fill a void or need.
Contrary to popular belief, the God that I believe in is not this temperamental, emotional, angry, sensitive God. I will probably get blasted for saying that I don't think that God created me for the sole purpose of "worshipping him" as we understand worship to be. I am quite sure that God does not have a fragile ego or an ego maniac who needs me to praise him night and day or that God will get mad and throw me in hell if I don't constantly offer my adulations. God is God regardless of my existence and what I do or not do. It may come as a shock to some or many but enjoyment is part of the reason for my creation. as I was relishing my meal earlier, I believe that God created taste buds so I could enjoy the burst of different flavors in my mouth. I think that God likes seeing me enjoying my life.
I don't believe that God wants me to suffer as I believe it when he says that he wishes to make my life easy. I do believe that God wants me to live to my potential and to my max. Why else would God have created me with the senses, intellect, and designed me to experience certain pleasures. of course, God also created pain receptors, diseases and such which often i marvel and wonder at. anyhow, I like to amuse myself in thinking that God created this earth for me to enjoy and I think that I do a fine job of soaking it all in listening to sounds of the ocean or watching the sunset. I do agree with God that misery is what we create for ourselves and to others.
I believe in a God who is infinitely understanding, caring, compassionate, forgiving but is fair and just. An atheist would argue or question these attributes. Ex how can God create a child whose mother is addicted to crack cocaine, no father in the picture, knowing the child will grow up in unstable environment where the needs of the child to be loved and cared will not be met and what chance will this child have in life? It is hard for me not to wonder or question many things as I go through my day doing my work. This is where I accept that God knows what I don't know. And it is a fact that I will never really understand God as my brain is not capable of and neither will I have answers that will be satisfactory. Why stress my brain cells? I don't reject God though just because I don't or can't understand or will ever have the answers to the multitude of questions. I suppose I am just too busy living my life and not worrying about stuff.
About the Koran, I believe it is from God something that I didn't come to believe easily without much thought. When I read something that I find contradictory, confusing or does not make sense, I don't reject the Koran but question my understanding and translations. Now there are many things that I don't understand and are even relevant to my life that is in the Koran. Seriously do I really care who Magog and agog were? I leave it to the intellect to analyze, disset and argue over. I have only benefitted from using the Koran as a guidance in my life. I come to appreciate and see what happens if you don't take it as a guidance. Speaking from personal experience as well. To me, it is simple. Want to make your life simple and easy, refer to the Koran. If you want to complicate your life, refer to the hadiths or other sources. Applying what I read in the Koran hasn't adversely affected me thus far. If anything, I have only gained. Working on killing my ego which is so hard, not acting arrogantly, thinking before I open my big mouth especially refraining from making a smart ass comment, seeking God when angered instead of just taking it out... I think people at work and around me seem to appreciate this part. Respecting others has also helped. Of course, one could argue that any self help book would do. True but no book that I have encountered thus far that has come close or helped me to understand things - the world we live in, about people, about life. I get much out of it and so I will continue to read, learn and understand.
I don't obess over stuff like what is modest dressing, how to pray and all that people seem to have an obsession over. I get the bit picture and the message. At times, though reading the Koran gets me all worked up and gets me from being passive to being active and vocal. Hard to mind my business and at times have found myself fighting for the little guy. When i see people putting down others, i stand up and say hey, that's not nice. in general, i tend to regress towards passivity but time to time I say stuff here on this forum and else where. When I hear things said about God that I don't agree, I speak up. I don't run with the herd. Guess never been a fan of rear ends. Gets me in trouble often and often find myself alone with my views and beliefs.
Anyhow, Confused who asked what she should do, these are my suggestions and take it for what it is worth
Stop believing what you have been told by people to be Islam. You have been tied up in knots kept in state of confusion for all these years by people. Reject and don't believe people including some on this forum as they will keep you in a state of confusion. Contrary to popular belief God did not say salat=ritual act of worship that you do 5,3 or 2 times of the day depending on who you listen to. Don't believe in these religious duties that have been told is what islam is about. Keep searching for the truth and peace. Don't reject God based on people's portrayal and characterization. God is not who we have been mislead to believe. Don't believe in this Islam according to men, confused. Listen to God and break free from these shackles. The Truth will set you free. Be weary that satan does his best messing with your mind and mixing truth with falsehood. Trust in God that he will NEVER lead you astray. You don't have to take my word for it but God does care for you and understands what you are going through. He is there for you even if you are not sure of him. His doors are always open. Just don't shut the door on God. You have only to gain from believing in God and opening your heart/mind to him. What have to lose from believing in God?
I hope that some day you will change your ID from confused to "nolongerconfused" -)
Oh I expect people to blast me with artillery of verses with regards to what I said about salat, but let's address that in the other thread at a later time when time allows.
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The thing is if God is indeed all knowing and all powerful, he could easily show us he exists individually because God, by definition would know what would convince us or would you disagree?.
But if you are deaf, dumb and blind, what can God do? I supposed he can make you less dumb, deaf and blind!
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Peace StopS.
Quote
If god is all powerful he can provide the evidence I need.
If god is all knowing he knows what evidence I need.
If god is all merciful he will provide the evidence I need.God has done all that and more. You have to do the work and find it. Or do you want God to do your work as well?
He will try you and bring out your true conviction. Go find your evidence! Keep at it, do not give up!
Good luck.
Peace. -
I would like to state my beliefs so you all know where I stand. I believe in God and in the life hereafter where each soul will have to take responsibility and accountability for how s/he has lived this life. Good deeds will be rewarded and bad deeds will be punished. And punishment will be tailored to the individual and nothing will be undeserved. This is my fundamental belief independent of any scripture.
None of us will know for sure till death. But I choose to believe in God. I am yet to lose anything from believing in God. I have not been harmed in anyway from believing in God. It is a good thing. it is comforting to me. I have been through a lot some of which I have shared here but much I haven't and God has helped me through a lot and continues to. I never feel alone. God has been the only constant thing in my life. people come and go in and out of my life some leaving me hurting. possessions i have owned and lost but above all God has been constant. An atheist could argue that I could have done it on my own without God and don't need God to get me through the day. I am yet to hear a convincing argument though of why I shouldn't believe in God from an atheist. as human beings, we need a sense of belonging, need to be beloved, comforted, that feeling of security and protection....God provides that for me. I am sure an atheist would ask how. My response would be, if you don't believe it then you will not understand. Even when I am not going through stuff needing God, it only makes sense to me to believe in God regardless of needs. God doesn't just fill a void or need.
Contrary to popular belief, the God that I believe in is not this temperamental, emotional, angry, sensitive God. I will probably get blasted for saying that I don't think that God created me for the sole purpose of "worshipping him" as we understand worship to be. I am quite sure that God does not have a fragile ego or an ego maniac who needs me to praise him night and day or that God will get mad and throw me in hell if I don't constantly offer my adulations. God is God regardless of my existence and what I do or not do. It may come as a shock to some or many but enjoyment is part of the reason for my creation. as I was relishing my meal earlier, I believe that God created taste buds so I could enjoy the burst of different flavors in my mouth. I think that God likes seeing me enjoying my life.
I don't believe that God wants me to suffer as I believe it when he says that he wishes to make my life easy. I do believe that God wants me to live to my potential and to my max. Why else would God have created me with the senses, intellect, and designed me to experience certain pleasures. of course, God also created pain receptors, diseases and such which often i marvel and wonder at. anyhow, I like to amuse myself in thinking that God created this earth for me to enjoy and I think that I do a fine job of soaking it all in listening to sounds of the ocean or watching the sunset. I do agree with God that misery is what we create for ourselves and to others.
I believe in a God who is infinitely understanding, caring, compassionate, forgiving but is fair and just. An atheist would argue or question these attributes. Ex how can God create a child whose mother is addicted to crack cocaine, no father in the picture, knowing the child will grow up in unstable environment where the needs of the child to be loved and cared will not be met and what chance will this child have in life? It is hard for me not to wonder or question many things as I go through my day doing my work. This is where I accept that God knows what I don't know. And it is a fact that I will never really understand God as my brain is not capable of and neither will I have answers that will be satisfactory. Why stress my brain cells? I don't reject God though just because I don't or can't understand or will ever have the answers to the multitude of questions. I suppose I am just too busy living my life and not worrying about stuff.
About the Koran, I believe it is from God something that I didn't come to believe easily without much thought. When I read something that I find contradictory, confusing or does not make sense, I don't reject the Koran but question my understanding and translations. Now there are many things that I don't understand and are even relevant to my life that is in the Koran. Seriously do I really care who Magog and agog were? I leave it to the intellect to analyze, disset and argue over. I have only benefitted from using the Koran as a guidance in my life. I come to appreciate and see what happens if you don't take it as a guidance. Speaking from personal experience as well. To me, it is simple. Want to make your life simple and easy, refer to the Koran. If you want to complicate your life, refer to the hadiths or other sources. Applying what I read in the Koran hasn't adversely affected me thus far. If anything, I have only gained. Working on killing my ego which is so hard, not acting arrogantly, thinking before I open my big mouth especially refraining from making a smart ass comment, seeking God when angered instead of just taking it out... I think people at work and around me seem to appreciate this part. Respecting others has also helped. Of course, one could argue that any self help book would do. True but no book that I have encountered thus far that has come close or helped me to understand things - the world we live in, about people, about life. I get much out of it and so I will continue to read, learn and understand.
I don't obess over stuff like what is modest dressing, how to pray and all that people seem to have an obsession over. I get the bit picture and the message. At times, though reading the Koran gets me all worked up and gets me from being passive to being active and vocal. Hard to mind my business and at times have found myself fighting for the little guy. When i see people putting down others, i stand up and say hey, that's not nice. in general, i tend to regress towards passivity but time to time I say stuff here on this forum and else where. When I hear things said about God that I don't agree, I speak up. I don't run with the herd. Guess never been a fan of rear ends. Gets me in trouble often and often find myself alone with my views and beliefs.
Anyhow, Confused who asked what she should do, these are my suggestions and take it for what it is worth
Stop believing what you have been told by people to be Islam. You have been tied up in knots kept in state of confusion for all these years by people. Reject and don't believe people including some on this forum as they will keep you in a state of confusion. Contrary to popular belief God did not say salat=ritual act of worship that you do 5,3 or 2 times of the day depending on who you listen to. Don't believe in these religious duties that have been told is what islam is about. Keep searching for the truth and peace. Don't reject God based on people's portrayal and characterization. God is not who we have been mislead to believe. Don't believe in this Islam according to men, confused. Listen to God and break free from these shackles. The Truth will set you free. Be weary that satan does his best messing with your mind and mixing truth with falsehood. Trust in God that he will NEVER lead you astray. You don't have to take my word for it but God does care for you and understands what you are going through. He is there for you even if you are not sure of him. His doors are always open. Just don't shut the door on God. You have only to gain from believing in God and opening your heart/mind to him. What have to lose from believing in God?
I hope that some day you will change your ID from confused to "nolongerconfused" -)
Oh I expect people to blast me with artillery of verses with regards to what I said about salat, but let's address that in the other thread at a later time when time allows.
handshake yes
Couldn't have said that better myself ). My view of God is essentially the same.
As justamuslim has entirely said, we all have different ideas of God, but as long as we seek the truth and strive in the straight path that the God has provided for us, then we shall have no fear ).
peace
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An atheist does not believe there is evidence for the existence of a god.
What would an atheist consider "evidence"?
What other ideas or impressions do you or people here have of atheists?
I have family members and friends who are atheist. Most atheist i know have come to reject God not because lack of "evidence" as you state.
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Peace.
First of all, we need to understand that "belief" is a condition, not a choice. You can claim to believe in something, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you believe in it. A person doesn't choose to believe in a god; he or she has been convinced of it in some way. From the same standpoint, atheists aren't choosing not to believe in a god or gods; they merely haven't been convinced of the existence of these characters (e.g. gods, goddesses, angels, demons, etc.), generally due to a lack of proof that they exist. That's where the underlying issue stands.
Regardless of that measure, there will ALWAYS be a philosophical conflict in this regard. Even if theists could somehow prove that a god exists, how would they be able to prove that their god exists? For example, if evidence for a divine, supernatural being surfaced, and it somehow convinced everyone that there certainly is a god, Muslims would all claim that it's evidence of ALLAH's existence, Christians would claim that it's Jesus, Jews would claim that it's HaShem, Hindus would claim that it's Brahma, Greeks would claim that it's Zeus, Romans would claim that it's Saturn, etc. You'd never be able to prove WHICH god it actually is, and that would present another philosophical discrepancy. In addition, if this evidence arose, you'd never be able to prove that there is only ONE god - there'd be the possibility of there being many of them, perhaps in different locations or on different 'planes of existence', etc. There'd be no way to make an accurate determination of this.
That's generally why atheists tend to take the default stance - e.g. there are no gods, no goddesses, no angels, no demons, etc. The logical proof that's used to dismiss the existence of one god can be used to debunk ALL of them.
Peace,
Ahmad
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But if you are deaf, dumb and blind, what can God do? I supposed he can make you less dumb, deaf and blind!
i apologise sincerely if i have offended you in any way that you are implying that im deaf, dumb and blind. if not directed at me or others with similar views then my apologies.
But anyway by which criteria does one assess that they themselves are not as you delicately put it dumb, deaf and blind. isn't that rather subjective and attributed to personal feeling that they see the truth and others are too dumb, deaf and blind to see it.
Is the problem that i can't grasp the quran due to lack of understanding and therefore i think it does not sufficiently provide the basis for a belief in Quranic "islam" or is that maybe i do indeed understand properly and the quran is not what it claims to be and inconsistencies i see are actual inconsistencies. How does one distinguish between the two.
i know its rather subjective but id like others way they manage to see the difference between the two states. or is it just trust what we know and go with it because we will find out when we die.
Justamuslim I have read your post that you state your beliefs and i have no problem at all with your position because you have not made claims about about God and religion that you want me to have belief in, so we have no conflict of interest. Yours as you say is a personal choice and that fine as long it does not hamper others. The problem only arises with thiests/anti-thiests when some decide everyone should believe what they do or you will be punished with hell if you don't believe, then the obvious question is Why should I and bring the evidence that what they say is true.
Peace.
atheists aren't choosing not to believe in a god or gods; they merely haven't been convinced of the existence of these characters (e.g. gods, goddesses, angels, demons, etc.), generally due to a lack of proof that they exist. That's where the underlying issue stands.
Regardless of that measure, there will ALWAYS be a philosophical conflict in this regard. Even if theists could somehow prove that a god exists, how would they be able to prove that their god exists? For example, if evidence for a divine, supernatural being surfaced, and it somehow convinced everyone that there certainly is a god, Muslims would all claim that it's evidence of ALLAH's existence, Christians would claim that it's Jesus, Jews would claim that it's HaShem, Hindus would claim that it's Brahma, Greeks would claim that it's Zeus, Romans would claim that it's Saturn, etc. You'd never be able to prove WHICH god it actually is, and that would present another philosophical discrepancy. In addition, if this evidence arose, you'd never be able to prove that there is only ONE god - there'd be the possibility of there being many of them, perhaps in different locations or on different 'planes of existence', etc. There'd be no way to make an accurate determination of this.
i agree entirely with this post and sums up my non-belief position.
What kind of evidence could a person provide to prove their religious belief? i'm not entirely sure but a good start would be something testable and verifiable independently and objectively. i can rule out personal experience and anything that the person presenting the evidence would not accept themselves if the tables were turned. subjective evidence rules itself out as it falls in to personal.
As for the evidence a God can give; that depends on the definition of God we use.
for example IF God is unknowable then no amount of evidence would let us know it is from God. -
What would an atheist consider "evidence"?
Like I said
If god is all powerful he can provide the evidence I need.
If god is all knowing he knows what evidence I need.
If god is all merciful he will provide the evidence I need.And like I said you can't reject something for which there is no evidence.
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Peace.
First of all, we need to understand that "belief" is a condition, not a choice. You can claim to believe in something, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you believe in it. A person doesn't choose to believe in a god; he or she has been convinced of it in some way. From the same standpoint, atheists aren't choosing not to believe in a god or gods; they merely haven't been convinced of the existence of these characters (e.g. gods, goddesses, angels, demons, etc.), generally due to a lack of proof that they exist. That's where the underlying issue stands.
Regardless of that measure, there will ALWAYS be a philosophical conflict in this regard. Even if theists could somehow prove that a god exists, how would they be able to prove that their god exists? For example, if evidence for a divine, supernatural being surfaced, and it somehow convinced everyone that there certainly is a god, Muslims would all claim that it's evidence of ALLAH's existence, Christians would claim that it's Jesus, Jews would claim that it's HaShem, Hindus would claim that it's Brahma, Greeks would claim that it's Zeus, Romans would claim that it's Saturn, etc. You'd never be able to prove WHICH god it actually is, and that would present another philosophical discrepancy. In addition, if this evidence arose, you'd never be able to prove that there is only ONE god - there'd be the possibility of there being many of them, perhaps in different locations or on different 'planes of existence', etc. There'd be no way to make an accurate determination of this.
That's generally why atheists tend to take the default stance - e.g. there are no gods, no goddesses, no angels, no demons, etc. The logical proof that's used to dismiss the existence of one god can be used to debunk ALL of them.
Peace,
Ahmad
Sorry, I object.
Belief can be a choice.
Example many Muslims (Christians too, for that matter) choose to ignore the facts surrounding the theory of evolution and instead choose to prioritise the religious creation story, even if it does not really collide with it.
The same goes for cosmogony and abiogenesis.Atheists choose to insist on evidence, theists choose to apply faith. I used to apply faith until I grew out of it during maturity. I chose to do that. Neither theism nor atheism is an illness or condition.
If there were evidence of a god, it would necessarily solve the question of monotheism vs polytheism. I can't think of anything where evidence would be possible for only a single instance of a group.
Atheists don't consider the default to be "no gods", as that would constitute a positive claim. Rather an atheist will take the stance of you believe, I don't. If you want me to believe, prove it.
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O please do excuse me all, I am simply trying to keep with the subject of this thread created by @Confused, who hasn't yet answered my earlier question about his purpose for creating it.
As I am not into philosophy or intellectual speculations, like some other members here, I would just repeat a few things I wrote in another thread, preventing this one to go utterly off-topic.God created Iblees as well, so of course God is the creator of both good and bad which are a dichotomy only for the feeble human mind, but not in relativity-driven objective reality which we cannot perceive, because a human simply doesn't have enough neurons to do that, same as a monkey has not sufficient neurons to play chess!
Don't you see that there is God even at the bottom of the devil's heart?Well, that's for sure God is running everything!
Hell is not created yet, but disbelievers will go there by their own choice, they are just choosing to do so. Hell is a sort of metaphor, as well as Paradise is, and you cannot force anyone into the Paradise, can you?The whole topic is rather simple, isn't it one is either a believer or a disbeliever!
I simply cannot understand why fuss so much about it all?