Knocking on the doors of atheism
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Peace justamuslim, noshirk,
Beware of those who pretend that their intentions are innocent and claim to be only seeking knowledge but they are liars they seek only to harass the believers.
Contradictory statements, false definitions, false highmindness are tools of shaytayn It is best not to respond and even better to ignore them.Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.
Peace
I could be offended by this - but I know this is just emotional, without facts and conviction, just hurt.
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Thanks Justamuslim
If people don't want to be sincere then they can rot in the hell they choose to make for themselves, that is not my problem, I have enough of my own soul to deal with and I suggest you do the same as God says you cannot make the deaf to hear or the blind to see and there are some, to whom you can bring the best of examples and you cannot make them to heed. Now if God the almighty the supreme creator himself is telling you he will not make them to hear, who are you as a limited human being to try to compromise? Do you see where I am coming from?
Now me asking about a veil is not confrontation. I know people say silly things like "are you stupid?". That is certainly not my intention, I am a drop in the ocean like everyone else. It is a genuine question DO YOU HAVE A VEIL OVER YOUR EYES? CAN YOU READ THESE WORDS? WILL YOU RESPOND TO THESE WORDS? And clearly the word of God has been proven true, that these people are too blinded by their own egotism to even care to answer, too comforted by the seductive whispers of Satan to give a fleeting thought to that which might help. I am not asking whether anybody is smart or stupid. I am shining some morse code and asking if these people can read morse code. Otherwise what is the point of even saying anything when the other party is not even remotely sincere in their intentions to actually consider anything you present?
Hope this clarifies, peace
You crack me up, do you know that? My country is on fire today, it's been a constant stream of bad news., and I needed the laugh, thank you.
ps I love the use of "these people.' as if we are cockroaches or maggots. Remove the veil from YOUR eyes my friend. Religion is not just about worshiping God, it is about treating people right and you don't do that. What will YOU tell God, when he asks you on judgement day about how you treat people? I love how maniacs like you are so worried about saving the souls of others but ignore their own rotten souls. If there is a God, it will be you who will be crying to him, not me. What is all this agression and vile directed at me anyway? Just because I questioned your belief system? If your faith was so strong, would you have been rattled by the announcement, of someone you don't even know, an anonymous person, that they are now atheists?
You are simply an insecure person and I wish you never came on this thread. I've been following the posts here and they are all insightful and interesting. Everyone has contributed something interesting, everyone has presented thought provoking information. Except you, you just rant. Continue ranting. I can't wait for your next nonsense post about how I have a veil over my eyes and blah blah blah zzzzzz. As a matter of fact, I will skip your posts from now on. You are just a waste of time. -
O no, nobody can save no-one! There is absolutelly no intersession of any kind at all!!!
To believe that anyone, other than God, can intercede on our behalf to have our sins forgiven or our wishes fulfilled, is to set up partners with God. This is idolatry. The Quran proclaims that "All intercession belongs to God" (3944), and that there will be "no intercession on the Day of Judgment" (2254).
The myth of intercession is one of Satan's most effective tricks to dupe millions of people into idol worship. Millions of Christians believe that Jesus will intercede for them at God, and millions of Muslims believe that Muhammad will intercede on their behalf. Consequently, these people idolize Jesus and Muhammad.
Important to read
The Myth of Intercession
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix8.htmlhttp//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/SP/2004/feb/page1.html
Have a nice time
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If you really want to help, you could try and define Muslim.
Salaam StopS
it is not my duty to define what is a muslim. Quran is here for that.
However, i'll will give you my "minimal" d?finition but it is mine and it is controversial and there is few members in free-minds who will agree.
To be a Muslim is
1- To believe in a unique GOD who created universe and life
2- To believe in the thereafter and in a final justice and that life is "a kind of test".
3- Not to invent lies nor contribute to propagate lies about God and not to take humans as Masters, tutors in the religious field. Whe have to put faith only in God.Point 3 eliminates majority of so called muslims for my definition.
To be a Muslim ++, that is a Moomin (believer), we should add
4- Spent money and effort and eventually life in Name of God to please him. That means helping others, charity and defending Muslims against agression.The effort sense can be extented to the intellectual effort Studiyng, reading, teaching, meditating all ayats (general sense wich include science like astronomie, biology...)
Of course, no murder, no theft, no lies, no break of engagement.
and of course, for muslims who had the opportunity to met quran during their life
identify quran as words of god.
read it , study it, get mind purification with it, use it to argue against arguments of disbelievers and use it to convince searchers of truth.Hope you noticed that for me, many true muslims don't know they are muslims or muslims ++.
But as quran says, if they read it, they will recognize it as a parent recognize his childs.
Peace -
Salaam StopS
it is not my duty to define what is a muslim. Quran is here for that.
However, i'll will give you my "minimal" d?finition but it is mine and it is controversial and there is few members in free-minds who will agree.
To be a Muslim is
1- To believe in a unique GOD who created universe and life
2- To believe in the thereafter and in a final justice and that life is "a kind of test".
3- Not to invent lies nor contribute to propagate lies about God and not to take humans as Masters, tutors in the religious field. Whe have to put faith only in God.Point 3 eliminates majority of so called muslims for my definition.
To be a Muslim ++, that is a Moomin (believer), we should add
4- Spent money and effort and eventually life in Name of God to please him. That means helping others, charity and defending Muslims against agression.The effort sense can be extented to the intellectual effort Studiyng, reading, teaching, meditating all ayats (general sense wich include science like astronomie, biology...)
Of course, no murder, no theft, no lies, no break of engagement.
and of course, for muslims who had the opportunity to met quran during their life
identify quran as words of god.
read it , study it, get mind purification with it, use it to argue against arguments of disbelievers and use it to convince searchers of truth.Hope you noticed that for me, many true muslims don't know they are muslims or muslims ++.
But as quran says, if they read it, they will recognize it as a parent recognize his childs.
PeaceThank you, this is useful and interesting for me. I understand that the litmus test is your 3rd point. The only problematic part I see is the human tutors. The Koran does not really mention "Muslims" much and rather refers to followers or believers. So I think I need human tutors who can explain the Koran and its words.
Your 4th point do you ensure zakat gets spent the way you want it?
You make it sound as though being a Muslim is hard work )
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StopS will answer your questions and address your post later as time is always my enemy
Noshirk - now, would you consider someone who believes in God, after life where justice will be meted out according to ones actions where good deed gets rewarded and bad deeds punished but does not believe the scriptures as from God to be a "Muslim"? Someone who has read the Quran but dismissed it. Basically a good person with values and ethics who doesn't believe in hurting others. Doesn't find anything wrong with drinking wine - of course in moderation as it does have cardio protective effect, eating pork that is well cooked, having consensual premarital sex. Believes in God, afterlife but not adhering to any scriptures/religion. Question is would you consider such a person to be "Muslim".
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Faithful-Jinn here. Been months since I've been over here. It takes a lot of energy and patience to discuss and debate with people you disagree with. Plus college takes a lot of time now.
Anyway Stop I have 2 simple questions for you Do you believe in the Abrahamic God? If so, why?
Now I'm an atheist but former Muslim. Let me just make a bullet point list of why I don't believe in the Abrahamic God and also why I don't believe in Islam specifically
-I don't believe in magic
-I don't believe in heaven or hell
-The idea of an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God is absurd when one observes reality
-Prayer is a case of confirmation bias The same amount of prayers would be answered for me if I decided to pray to the milk jug in my refrigerator. If my prayer was answered I would thank the milk jug and if it wasn't answered I would say I was at fault
-The Qur'an seems to be written from the perspective of an 8th century Arab man
-I don't believe men are superior or a degree above women
-The Qur'an is no more profound than any other religious text. The Qur'an is not proof of anything but human superstitiousness and gullibility.
-I don't believe Noah lived to be 900 years old and that him and his family had every animal on the planet live with them on an enormous boat for 30 days
-I don't believe Moses had a magical staff
-I don't believe Jonah lived for 3 days in the belly of a fish or a whaleBottom line Everything in my human experience and reason tells me that the claims of Islam and the other Abrahamic faiths are not true. I have yet to see any evidence to convince me that any religious claims about God or the afterlife are true. I do not believe in God because there is no good reason or evidence for me to do so. Much in the same way I don't believe in fairies, leprechauns, or genies.
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One of the things that turned me off religion is the idea of hell. It seems really harsh to me that God would let you burn in hell simply because you don't believe in him. So God, created this whole universe just so that people worship him and if they don't then he will punish them forever? Sounds crazy.
Have you guys ever been burned? Maybe while cooking or putting some toast in the oven? Did you see the searing pain that racks your body just because of a tiny burn? Can you imagine what it would feel like to be thrown in hell forever? It's horrible, painful, and actually sadistic. And what is this punishment for? For killing, raping, torturing people? No, it is simply for not believing. Harsh right?
Besides, life is complicated, confusing, busy. Most people get sucked into the craziness of life from a very young age. Most never get the chance to think about spiritual issues. Will they go to hell just because of that?
I also hear a lot of religious people, especially Muslims, say that God will direct you to the right path if he wants to. That God is the one who chooses who will be led astray and who won't. My question is why? Why would God help some people and leave the rest to live a sinful life and rot in hell for all eternity? Doesn't that sound sadistic?Brother, surely none can answer your question about God but God Himself. Asking God the same question - if you are a sadist?' within yourself, He would be much pleased with you and surely He would reveal to you that He is otherwise with clear proof and would guide you in righteousness; that is revelation which when you receive it will evolve you above the 7 billions of people in a fraction of a second. But the same question if you ask all those 7 billions around you, the blame is on you - you are with the entire band of people who have gone astray, disputing among themselves in the name of some religion, say, in this case islam. As Allah says most among men and jinn had been destined for hell, we guard against man's disagreeably disputable answers, based on their material knowledge. Man is the finest of all creations; and God is closest to him who is patient, and who guards himself against the mankind, and who fears His warning never ask about 'who I am?' and ask not even explanations about My guidance for you I have revealed in The Quran, save me. He is closer than your life i.e. in your soul, the ruh which will speak to you the Furqan, revealing from the Quran. Believe in the Angel Gibreel who is concerned with the revelation of Quran,and it is who is your all time Messenger for guidance in this world,by the leave of Allah. If you want to live soulfully in God's way, then follow your God as He speaks to you through your conscience, the ruh. And there is Gibreel, 'Ruhul Quddus' waiting for your turning to Allah, ready to reveal and evolve you with The Revelation.
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Follow only that which is sent down upon your heart; and never accept the guidance of others other than Him. Yet, most do not understand but a few.You will never know who those few people are except Allah. How to identify them. Allah says you cannot find them but wherever they are He would make them join you. All you have to do is believe in Him and seek guidance in your soul and follow exactly the way as you are guided in your conscience. In this way you are folowing the messenger from among the malayikas. Unless you believe and follow the messengers from among the malayika, the Gibreel and Mikail, you are open enemy to Allah.
Brother confused, stay clear from the arguments and follow what is right in your conscience; Allah guides and conducts towards heaven only such of these. Allah is the Best of Guides.
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Salaam StopS.
Thank you, this is useful and interesting for me. I understand that the litmus test is your 3rd point. The only problematic part I see is the human tutors. The Koran does not really mention "Muslims" much and rather refers to followers or believers. So I think I need human tutors who can explain the Koran and its words.
No, you don't need human. Humans will divert you from true path. No Humans. No One. It is totally forbidden.
You can be helped by humans but never take one of them as tutor. You have to use your own mind, confrontate, comparate and always ask yourself Is it logical that God ask for that thing ? What is the spiritual gain ?Your 4th point do you ensure zakat gets spent the way you want it?
I told you no human.
Who told you Zakat is spending money ?
Are you speaking of Pillars of islam ? Have you seen a verse talking of 5 pillars ?
Who told you what is salat, fast, zakat , hajj ? Have you seen the shahada in quran ?For me, zakat is mind purification from human bullshiths.
However be aware, i am a human too.You make it sound as though being a Muslim is hard work
Wich point is difficult ? 1, 2, or 3 ?
Believing in God, in the thereafter and not believe blindly humans are not difficult tasks.
To be a muslim, you don't need even to know you are a muslim. Abraham had no torah, no quran. He guessed God with his mind.Point 4 is only for who want to be a Muslim ++
Studying is only for those who want to get science in this life.
That is very difficult.
For quran, if one want to study it deeply, learning arabic is necessary to not put faith in traductors and unknown members of free-minds.Peace
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Faithful-Jinn here. Been months since I've been over here. It takes a lot of energy and patience to discuss and debate with people you disagree with. Plus college takes a lot of time now.
Anyway Stop I have 2 simple questions for you Do you believe in the Abrahamic God? If so, why?
I do not see sufficient evidence to do so.
Now I'm an atheist but former Muslim. Let me just make a bullet point list of why I don't believe in the Abrahamic God and also why I don't believe in Islam specifically
-I don't believe in magic
-I don't believe in heaven or hell
-The idea of an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God is absurd when one observes reality
-Prayer is a case of confirmation bias The same amount of prayers would be answered for me if I decided to pray to the milk jug in my refrigerator. If my prayer was answered I would thank the milk jug and if it wasn't answered I would say I was at fault
-The Qur'an seems to be written from the perspective of an 8th century Arab man
-I don't believe men are superior or a degree above women
-The Qur'an is no more profound than any other religious text. The Qur'an is not proof of anything but human superstitiousness and gullibility.
-I don't believe Noah lived to be 900 years old and that him and his family had every animal on the planet live with them on an enormous boat for 30 days
-I don't believe Moses had a magical staff
-I don't believe Jonah lived for 3 days in the belly of a fish or a whaleBottom line Everything in my human experience and reason tells me that the claims of Islam and the other Abrahamic faiths are not true. I have yet to see any evidence to convince me that any religious claims about God or the afterlife are true. I do not believe in God because there is no good reason or evidence for me to do so. Much in the same way I don't believe in fairies, leprechauns, or genies.
Isn't this why it is called faith? You can't apply a microscope or an MRI to the contents of any religious book.
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Salaam StopS.
No, you don't need human. Humans will divert you from true path. No Humans. No One. It is totally forbidden.
You can be helped by humans but never take one of them as tutor. You have to use your own mind, confrontate, comparate and always ask yourself Is it logical that God ask for that thing ? What is the spiritual gain ?I told you no human.
Who told you Zakat is spending money ?
Are you speaking of Pillars of islam ? Have you seen a verse talking of 5 pillars ?
Who told you what is salat, fast, zakat , hajj ? Have you seen the shahada in quran ?For me, zakat is mind purification from human bullshiths.
However be aware, i am a human too.Wich point is difficult ? 1, 2, or 3 ?
Believing in God, in the thereafter and not believe blindly humans are not difficult tasks.
To be a muslim, you don't need even to know you are a muslim. Abraham had no torah, no quran. He guessed God with his mind.Point 4 is only for who want to be a Muslim ++
Studying is only for those who want to get science in this life.
That is very difficult.
For quran, if one want to study it deeply, learning arabic is necessary to not put faith in traductors and unknown members of free-minds.Peace
Just when I thought I got the hang of it, you showed me that I need to question what I think I know again. I hate it )
I understand that you have a different attitude than most other Muslims I know. I reckon that reading, understanding and then still performing what you consider to be purification does take an effort from your side. Especially when you are required to learn an entire language....
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Faithful-Jinn, You are obviously astray and for some reason you feel the need to share that fact.
You don't believe this, You don't believe that, so what, who cares!O0
The Koran does say there are those who will come to believe and then disbelieve. Faithful-Jim is an example. He has not said anything new that the Koran hasn't already addressed why people turn to disbelief or never come to believe in the first place. No new revelations here.
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Peace justamuslim,
I have often asked non-believers what do they want, and most of the time
they have no coherent answer. I asked stop s what did he want, his answer was
"I want to know what muslims think" not "I am interested in becoming muslim",
what a waste of time. What believer in their daily life would continously answers questions
from someone who was a known atheist. Faithful-jinn has 236 posts how many
posts do a person need to make a decision? We need to stop wasting our time
and call a kuffar a kuffar.Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.
O0
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Peace justamuslim,
I have often asked non-believers what do they want, and most of the time they have no coherent answer. I asked stop s what did he want, his answer was "I want to know what muslims think" not "I am interested in becoming muslim", what a waste of time. What believer in their daily life would continously answers questions from someone who was a known atheist. Faithful-jinn has 236 posts how many posts do a person need to make a decision? We need to stop wasting our time and call a kuffar a kuffar.
I am so glad that not everyone here is a zealous bigot and see this forum as a platform to engage in discussions with different people and not just the ones who think the same way as they do.
I am equally glad that there are human beings who don't judge me themselves, but leave that to their god.
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I do not like to post in this thread, because of its title!
The door to atheism doesn't interest me, let alone knocking on it!
The person who started this thread seems the least interested in it of all.So,
I would just like to invite us all to examine our motivations for writing here (and posting in the Forum generally)!Do we want to proselytize? No need! Who ever told us to do that?
Do we want to defend the "Deen" (or the Religion)? Not possible! Besides, we are not appointed paid clergymen!
Do we want to defend God??? Not necessary! He is far beyond that notion!
Do we want to convince ourselves during the process of explaining faith to others? Not advisable! Narcissistic thoughts can destroy faith!So what we should do here?
I think the only thing that we might do to help our fellow human beings, is to remind them!
Here, or anywhere.
We can only follow the example of the messengers, and remind people of God! Only that. Simply inform them about the Reading (Qur'an) which could enlighten them perhaps. And that's all we could do. To add anything would be pure vanity!In the end, it is God Alone Who might guide them! He is running everything, anyway.
But!
Meanwhile, we have to be careful not to neglect our own souls, since provocation to preach and write nice posts can also be a devilish temptation... (I seek refuge in God!)And we all know that Satan is the worst enemy to men!
Our task is to adhere fast to God and remain faithful to God Alone, nothing else!
And to nurture our souls with the five daily prayers, and to educate our minds with the Qur'an, and to implore God to guide us to the Right Path until the appointed time!All the rest is just a waste of time and a sign of a ridiculous human pride...
Thank you for your attention.
(May God forgive me if writing this post I unconsciously wanted to boast or show off or to nurture my self-complacency and smugness by promoting my own self-righteousness!)
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I am so glad that not everyone here is a zealous bigot and see this forum as a platform to engage in discussions with different people and not just the ones who think the same way as they do.
I am equally glad that there are human beings who don't judge me themselves, but leave that to their god.
Who can be more of a zealous bigot than an atheist? constantly attacking everyone in
sight who disagrees with you, putting out so-called facts but never providing proof.
Everytime somebody makes a post here you come with your stupid questions and arguments.lol, Idiocy
People do judge (they have courts you know)
people have opinions (judgements)
and by the way didn't you just judge me?O0
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peace GODsubmitter.
I agree. God bless you.
Peace.
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I hear a lot of religious people, especially Muslims, say that God will direct you to the right path if he wants to. That God is the one who chooses who will be led astray and who won't. My question is why? Why would God help some people and leave the rest to live a sinful life and rot in hell for all eternity? Doesn't that sound sadistic?
For instance I have 3 children. Of these one child behaves well with sense of justification in his actions, taking my advise where necessary with all humility and sincerity. He is not being arrogant nor is he mischievous; but has patience and compassion for his habitat. I am well satisfied with him and I am pleased with him. Naturally, he becomes close to my heart. If I keep a watch over him from a distance, provides sufficient satisfaction to me. I give him more and more freedom as he gains momentum in his perception towards righteousness. He does not need abnormal physical or materialistic support for his journey towards superior power and nature.
The other child is playful and mischievous; and is unknowingly insincere. But when I point out his mistakes and speak to him of the glad tidings, he lends his ears and try to check his ways unlike before but for a short while, though later on he becomes childish again. In the case of the second child, he is not close to me but I have to be close to him to teach him good news about the unseen and unknown future with clear proof; and to physically guide him too with extra care, and with certain restraints. He values me for this and regards my closeness to him. I love him and I am pleased with him and give him more comfort of this physical world for I know he would look up to me for guidance whenever he is stuck or feels he would get into trouble; and would not heedlessly venture far and deep into them and suffer the worst. He has this tendency to suffer due to his childish carefree attitude, yet from what he had gained as guidance, he quickly remembers to bail himself out through patience, politeness and humility with prayerful heart. Prayer means the wishing for the beautiful tomorrow of the unseen blessings in the heart of hearts sent down by the Almighty power. Believing in such powers is being Prayerful. I love my second child for imbibing this when he is shown the righteousness during his testing times.
Regarding the third child, he is not only suffering from his childish behaviour, but hates any guidance with arrogance. However hard I try to correct him, his contempt for me aggravates by time. He becomes abusive and aggressive if I refuse to allow him the worldly desires. Though he is one of my children, I am left with no choice but to leave him in his way as he goes far astray, into oblivion.
This parable holds good in the case of humans in relation with the supreme God, who created them in standard and degree high above all the other creations.
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