Knocking on the doors of atheism
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Peace justamuslim,
I have often asked non-believers what do they want, and most of the time
they have no coherent answer. I asked stop s what did he want, his answer was
"I want to know what muslims think" not "I am interested in becoming muslim",
what a waste of time. What believer in their daily life would continously answers questions
from someone who was a known atheist. Faithful-jinn has 236 posts how many
posts do a person need to make a decision? We need to stop wasting our time
and call a kuffar a kuffar.Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled. GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.
If God actually proved His existence I'd have no problem worshipping Him. But like every other religion that has ever existed, there is no evidence for God's existence.
It's a waste of time for me to post here any longer. Most people will never see any opposing viewpoint as valid. Everyone clings to their own beliefs regardless.
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Just when I thought I got the hang of it, you showed me that I need to question what I think I know again. I hate it )
Salaam StopS
I know that feeling. But mind purification is in fact freedom.
hope i will not bother you with my own conclusions
I studied astronomy, biology and many scientific fields. I get then the conclusion that all what we see is not result of Chance and i get also the conclusion that the entity that created all this has an infinite IQ.
I studied islam and i discovered that all rituals and all what we call islam is coming from other books than Quran.
I understand that it is hard to believe.
I studied quran and i discovered the great war The war between words of God and human bullshits. The war between truth and lies. The war between reason and stupidity.I have consideration for sincere atheits because they succeded to reject humans bullshits about GOD.
Quran quite starts with these verses (sourate 1 is a prayer where a believer ask his God to show him the right path)
22 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the SALAT, and from Our provisions to them they spend.and i will add these two verses
2852 Those to whom We had given the Book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we were Muslims before it."islam didn't start with quran.
I get the conclusion that Quran can be understood only by those who have precognition of GOD and his infinite IQ and don't take Bullshits as tutors. All Others will understood nothing.So i will give you a personal advice from the human i am
Don't waste your time with quran if you don't believe in the infinite IQ.
if you get precognition of the infinite IQ then you will be at verse 22 and you will be able to respond to the question Is quran the book of the infinite IQ ?
If you get conviction that response is yes then you will be able to ask other questions in a direct connexion between you and your God, your unique tutor, only by his words. That is Salat.
Please note that in arabic, the word Rabb, repeated hundreds times in quran, traduced often by God, means also educator. Unique Rabb is Unique Educator.
If you have no question to ask him, then you have probably not reached yet the 22 stage.As you see, learning arabic is absolutely not necessary at firsts stages. It is necesseray only if one wants to take total freedom from all traductors. It needs a great motivation that can't be obtained at first stages.
And who knows ? Perhaps infinite IQ will put true muslims knowing arabic on the path of true muslims don't knowing arabic ?
Like a novelist, infinite IQ can knows future only if he has total control on it (think to now from big bang). A true Muslim should never forget that and have to put faith in the novelist with infinite IQ.From my understanding, heaven is obtained from firsts stages. Higher stages are only for satisfying curiosity.
sorry again for my english.
Peace
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I get the conclusion that Quran can be understood only by those who have precognition of GOD and his infinite IQ and don't take Bullshits as tutors. All Others will understood
Interesting. I would be curious to know if anyone started out as an atheist, read the Koran and then came to belief.
I don't know which philosopher said that if you study science deep enough, you will come to believe in existence of God.
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Salaam StopS
I know that feeling. But mind purification is in fact freedom.
hope i will not bother you with my own conclusions
I studied astronomy, biology and many scientific fields. I get then the conclusion that all what we see is not result of Chance and i get also the conclusion that the entity that created all this has an infinite IQ.
I studied islam and i discovered that all rituals and all what we call islam is coming from other books than Quran.
I understand that it is hard to believe.
I studied quran and i discovered the great war The war between words of God and human bullshits. The war between truth and lies. The war between reason and stupidity.I have consideration for sincere atheits because they succeded to reject humans bullshits about GOD.
Quran quite starts with these verses (sourate 1 is a prayer where a believer ask his God to show him the right path)
22 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.
23 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the SALAT, and from Our provisions to them they spend.and i will add these two verses
2852 Those to whom We had given the Book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we were Muslims before it."islam didn't start with quran.
I get the conclusion that Quran can be understood only by those who have precognition of GOD and his infinite IQ and don't take Bullshits as tutors. All Others will understood nothing.So i will give you a personal advice from the human i am
Don't waste your time with quran if you don't believe in the infinite IQ.
if you get precognition of the infinite IQ then you will be at verse 22 and you will be able to respond to the question Is quran the book of the infinite IQ ?
If you get conviction that response is yes then you will be able to ask other questions in a direct connexion between you and your God, your unique tutor, only by his words. That is Salat.
Please note that in arabic, the word Rabb, repeated hundreds times in quran, traduced often by God, means also educator. Unique Rabb is Unique Educator.
If you have no question to ask him, then you have probably not reached yet the 22 stage.As you see, learning arabic is absolutely not necessary at firsts stages. It is necesseray only if one wants to take total freedom from all traductors. It needs a great motivation that can't be obtained at first stages.
And who knows ? Perhaps infinite IQ will put true muslims knowing arabic on the path of true muslims don't knowing arabic ?
Like a novelist, infinite IQ can knows future only if he has total control on it (think to now from big bang). A true Muslim should never forget that and have to put faith in the novelist with infinite IQ.From my understanding, heaven is obtained from firsts stages. Higher stages are only for satisfying curiosity.
sorry again for my english.
Peace
I value your input because I think you are one of the people who have actually thought about why they believe what they believe and that you have found an answer for yourself.
The points you make are similar to what I have observed. The sentence that contains an amazing amount of what I consider to be true is the one where you require precognition and acceptance of this particular god before you can grasp the full contents of the Koran. I have tried to set my mind to that position, but at some point I can't any longer and my scepticism comes through.
I think I know most parts of the Koran, as a translation of course, and have realised that I am more interested what people do with the contents than the contents itself.
Thank you for your much appreciated suggestions and advice. -
peace GODsubmitter.
I agree. God bless you.
Peace.
Thank you
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If God actually proved His existence I'd have no problem worshipping Him. But like every other religion that has ever existed, there is no evidence for God's existence.
It's a waste of time for me to post here any longer. Most people will never see any opposing viewpoint as valid. Everyone clings to their own beliefs regardless.
Are you sure people here always cling to the beliefs no matter what?
If we found existence of a God, then I'd still find it hard to worship or "serve" that God. Because I would want to understand why God wants us to worship or "serve" him when he doesn't need worship and he obviously has given us 'free will' so I feel there can never be a satisfactory answer to this. By implying that God wants us to worship him points to God having some sort of Ego. An all knowing and merciful God would let us go on with our merry lives without interfering as he decided to give us free will in the first place.
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Peace Assassino.
God does not need anything from anyone. He is " Unique", Independent.
"Serve/worship" is a misunderstood notion like all other notions of" deen/system". You are " dependent" , you will end up serving somebody or something? Who or What?.This according to your creator is a disaster ( If ,other than God is chosen!).
The only one " qualified" to be " served/worshipped" ie totally submitted to His laws and ways is the "Originator" .The Creator. Hence " One God"
For your own good, for unity , for the good of all the creation,there is only one way that works. God s way/system. In the end , willingly or unwillingly, this is the only choice God s creations are left with,if they want to be part of His kingdom. For their own benefit. There is no other system that will work perfectly, because there are no other "gods".
Choosing "other than god" is the option that leads to disaster!
The choice is yours?
Peace. -
Peace Assassino.
God does not need anything from anyone. He is " Unique", Independent.
"Serve/worship" is a misunderstood notion like all other notions of" deen/system". You are " dependent" , you will end up serving somebody or something? Who or What?.This according to your creator is a disaster ( If ,other than God is chosen!).
The only one " qualified" to be " served/worshipped" ie totally submitted to His laws and ways is the "Originator" .The Creator. Hence " One God"
For your own good, for unity , for the good of all the creation,there is only one way that works. God s way/system. In the end , willingly or unwillingly, this is the only choice God s creations are left with,if they want to be part of His kingdom. For their own benefit. There is no other system that will work perfectly, because there are no other "gods".
Choosing "other than god" is the option that leads to disaster!
The choice is yours?
Peace.- Is this logical?
- God does not need anything from anyone.
- if they want to be part of His kingdom.
A kingdom without subjects is not a kingdom.
- How do you interpret "Allah created some people for hell and some people for paradise" and "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us"?
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I have yet to see any evidence to convince me that any religious claims about God or the afterlife are true. I do not believe in God because there is no good reason or evidence for me to do so. Much in the same way I don't believe in fairies, leprechauns, or genies.
So you don't believe that fairies, leprechauns and genies are fictional characters from story books? To question the existence of fictional characters like Santa Claus, fairies, etc defies all common sense to say the least.
And you don't see any good reason why people should be held accountable for their deeds? You don't see any good reason why George Bush who waged an illegal war should be questioned and held accountable for all that he did? You don't see any good reason why those who cause bloodshed, pain and suffering to others should be held accountable for?
What you are saying is that basically, you don't believe in taking responsibility and accountability. And you don't care for justice.
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Peace StopS.
It seems my understanding and your understanding are different.
What I am saying does not make sense to you. What you are saying does not make sense to me.
I am not seeking to prove / convince you , like you have not been able to prove /convince me so far.
God is the only judge. He will tells us on what/why we differ.
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace StopS.
It seems my understanding and your understanding are different.
What I am saying does not make sense to you. What you are saying does not make sense to me.
I am not seeking to prove / convince you , like you have not been able to prove /convince me so far.
God is the only judge. He will tells us on what/why we differ.
God bless you.
Peace.Hahaha, no, I am not trying to convince. I asked a non-religion-based question, a question regarding logics.
I then asked a question regarding the logical interpretation of 2 sentences.
But it's ok, I understand if answering presents a problem for you.
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- Is this logical?
- God does not need anything from anyone.
- if they want to be part of His kingdom.
A kingdom without subjects is not a kingdom.
- How do you interpret "Allah created some people for hell and some people for paradise" and "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us"?
The approximate interpretation is that God created everything with a natural instinct to "worship" Him which approximately means to be in harmony with the Reality and with the Truth (to obey His Laws). Then some of the created rebelled, and God gave them another chance to repent because He is Rachman & Racheem (Merciful). But He also knows that again, some of those will not take the opportunity, and they will insist on going to Hell because of their own stubbornness.
Anyway, you can read it all very well explained here
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlWe are all (and everything is) in His Kingdom anyhow, whether we know it or not. All created are His subjects, even Iblees whom God created, too. God is running everything.
God doesn't need anything from us, but it is we who need contact-prayers et al (Qur'an, the Prophets, etc) to find the Way back to "paradise"! He gave us all those signs and aids also out of His Mercy! But some insist on rejecting 'em... -
If we found existence of a God, then I'd still find it hard to worship or "serve" that God. Because I would want to understand why God wants us to worship or "serve" him when he doesn't need worship and he obviously has given us 'free will' so I feel there can never be a satisfactory answer to this. By implying that God wants us to worship him points to God having some sort of Ego. An all knowing and merciful God would let us go on with our merry lives without interfering as he decided to give us free will in the first place.
What you are doing is humanizing God.
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Are you sure people here always cling to the beliefs no matter what?
If we found existence of a God, then I'd still find it hard to worship or "serve" that God. Because I would want to understand why God wants us to worship or "serve" him when he doesn't need worship and he obviously has given us 'free will' so I feel there can never be a satisfactory answer to this. By implying that God wants us to worship him points to God having some sort of Ego. An all knowing and merciful God would let us go on with our merry lives without interfering as he decided to give us free will in the first place.
That would be all right if we hadn't sided with Iblees and the idea of two gods, or duality in perception of reality, or idol-worship! But by worshiping God Alone, He offers us a chance to remember that there is only God Alone, One and only, and to rediscover the Right Path, spiritually speaking.
Anyhow, who says that one cannot go on with one's merry life?
One is perfectly entitled not to believe or to have as many gods as one wishes, and to worship money, sex, food, fashion-shows or whatever
That's why the free will is there for! He gave us free will so that we might choose the right path back, and correct the initial mistake we made in the first place! -
The approximate interpretation is that God created everything with a natural instinct to "worship" Him which approximately means to be in harmony with the Reality and with the Truth. Then some of the created rebelled, and God gave them another chance to repent because He is Rachman & Racheem (Merciful). But He also knows that again, some of those will not take the opportunity, and they will insist on going to Hell because of their own stubbornness.
Anyway, you can read it all very well explained here
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlWe are all (and everything is) in His Kingdom anyhow, whether we know it or not. All created are His subjects, even Iblees whom God created, too. God is running everything.
God doesn't need anything from us, but it is we who need contact-prayers et al (Qur'an, the Prophets, etc) to find the Way back to "paradise".Thank you.
Yours is a spiritual explanation, where I was looking more for a logical line of thought.
In my opinion the link you provide delivers a horrible explanation as it would mean that every human born is born with guilt attached. What a terrible thought! I should be guilty of something I did not do? Why?
The essay also shows a typical human anthropomorphous imagination e.g. animals repenting and all creatures having a joint discussion.
Humans did not even exist "a few billion years ago". It also says that "God alone knows which souls are good and which souls are evil" - yet they are created anyway and then punished for being what they were supposed to be. Not a logical concept at all, is it?But that's why people have faith.
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The tragic thing is I miss having God my life. I miss him so much. I was always a practicing Muslim. I started praying when I was 15 and never missed a prayer for years. And now I just feel a big hole in my life. People who say that I left Islam because I think the life of unbelievers is nicer, or because I am too arrogant to believe in a creator, know nothing.
When I am happy I miss having a God to say ElHamdulelah to. When I am sad, I miss praying to relax myself. When I am scared, I miss reading the Koran or raising my hand to God to ask for release. I miss the idea of a creator who has my back and who will ensure that justice will prevail not just for me, but for everyone else.
And my lack of belief in God, has shook my world. I used to believe that all the people who died in Egypt and in the Arab Spring are martyrs who will go to heaven. It helped me make sense of the senseless killings and violence. Now I feel lost. I don't understand why these people died.
I am just struggling to believe in God's existence. People don't understand. I am not challenging anyone's faith. I "want" to believe. I really do. I just can't. In the past few months, I just could not do it anymore. No matter how much I wanted to. One of my friends, knew what I was going through, and used to pull me up to the mosque during zuhr prayer at work, so I can pray and return to God. But it didn't work. It didn't. And that's why I opened this thread, I thought people may say something to help me. -
The tragic thing is I miss having God my life. I miss him so much. I was always a practicing Muslim. I started praying when I was 15 and never missed a prayer for years. And now I just feel a big hole in my life. People who say that I left Islam because I think the life of unbelievers is nicer, or because I am too arrogant to believe in a creator, know nothing.
When I am happy I miss having a God to say ElHamdulelah to. When I am sad, I miss praying to relax myself. When I am scared, I miss reading the Koran or raising my hand to God to ask for release. I miss the idea of a creator who has my back and who will ensure that justice will prevail not just for me, but for everyone else.
And my lack of belief in God, has shook my world. I used to believe that all the people who died in Egypt and in the Arab Spring are martyrs who will go to heaven. It helped me make sense of the senseless killings and violence. Now I feel lost. I don't understand why these people died.
I am just struggling to believe in God's existence. People don't understand. I am not challenging anyone's faith. I "want" to believe. I really do. I just can't. In the past few months, I just could not do it anymore. No matter how much I wanted to. One of my friends, knew what I was going through, and used to pull me up to the mosque during zuhr prayer at work, so I can pray and return to God. But it didn't work. It didn't. And that's why I opened this thread, I thought people may say something to help me.Sounds like a kid who lost her mummy ???
God will guide you and will have mercy on you I hope.
Perhaps this period is a test for your true faith and a process of cleansing your heart and your mind from false notions.
There are some "atheists" who are more faithful to God Alone then most "believers". That's why it is written that most "believers" will go to Hell (they do just lip service and write posts). laugh(I take refuge in God from any of these, and ask Him to guide me to the Right Path always, because my love for God is the very first thing in my life, and there is nothing more important to me then that!)
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Thank you.
Yours is a spiritual explanation, where I was looking more for a logical line of thought.
In my opinion the link you provide delivers a horrible explanation as it would mean that every human born is born with guilt attached. What a terrible thought! I should be guilty of something I did not do? Why?
The essay also shows a typical human anthropomorphous imagination e.g. animals repenting and all creatures having a joint discussion.
Humans did not even exist "a few billion years ago". It also says that "God alone knows which souls are good and which souls are evil" - yet they are created anyway and then punished for being what they were supposed to be. Not a logical concept at all, is it?But that's why people have faith.
?The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.?
Bertrand Russel -
It also says that "God alone knows which souls are good and which souls are evil" - yet they are created anyway and then punished for being what they were supposed to be. Not a logical concept at all, is it?
But that's why people have faith.
Is it logical to have prisons/punishments in this life? If God created a sociopath, then why are we punishing those who run ponze scheme or swindling people of money, land, hurting, killing, etc? If you remove God from the equation then punishment is ok? when God is removed, what is your explanation for why there are sociopath or narcissist or rapist or child predator, manipulators, etc? Remember God doesn't exist and so they were not created by God to be who they are.
Now, if it is in the nature of a person to be a sociopath then is it logical then to hold these individuals accountable for their actions? An atheist seems to have problems with concept of accountability in the life hereafter but why not in this life? If a sociopath manipulates swindles your money or steals or kills your family and stabs you, then why not apply your logic that this person has natural tendencies to behave in the way he does and should not be held accountable for his actions? Also to a sociopath, his sense of right is different than yours and how can you as a human being declare that his behavior is wrong?