Day & Night Phenomenon described in the quran
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Peace, Alleycats.
Of course, I'm sure that's the commonly accepted viewpoint concerning this issue. However, I didn't want to refer to it this way, as it's a subjective position not everyone agrees that the Qur'aan was written by ALLAH (God). My post was meant with that idea in mind... Also, with regard to people comprehending the wisdom of ALLAH, we have to keep in mind that not everyone believes in the concept of deity and divinity. Therefore, to some people, they have already exceeded the wisdom of ALLAH - at least as far as the Qur'aan is concerned. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this position, but it certainly exists...
In addition, we can reasonably conclude that the Qur'aan was written FROM the perspective of the 7th century Arabs due to it being written (or, at least compiled) by 7th century Arabs. It was written in their language, citing features and examples prevalent in their culture, and composed of passages that they'd understand. We can't reasonably conclude that it was written for all of humanity, as (obviously) all of humanity can't read, write or understand Arabic language and culture. So, we can objectively state that it was most likely written FOR them, if not BY them.
Do you disagree?
Peace,
Ahmad
You are speaking out of ignorance.
This , behold, is no less than a reminder to all the worlds ? (3887)
And We have sent thee as grace towards all the worlds. (21107)
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Peace, FearGod.
You are speaking out of ignorance.
This , behold, is no less than a reminder to all the worlds ? (3887)
And We have sent thee as grace towards all the worlds. (21107)
How am I speaking out of ignorance, and how do the Koranic passages you posted authenticate your position? Are you asserting that everyone believes in ALLAH, the authenticity of the Koran, the 'revelation' of the prophet Mohammed, etc.? Or, are YOU really the one speaking out of ignorance?
Peace,
Ahmad
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You are speaking out of ignorance.
This , behold, is no less than a reminder to all the worlds ? (3887)
And We have sent thee as grace towards all the worlds. (21107)
Please @FearGod please Fear ALLAH and don't judge too quickly, or so harshly. It is TOO easy a mistake. We ALL make them. Ahmad B. has been considering these threads for quite awhile, and even though i don't quite get where he is coming from, it may be a POV that needs pondering first. Answers from mature members can contain answers that are not exactly what we see at first. Now, i am not saying i will agree with him. Probably not...??
However, using words like "speaking out of ignorance" seems to lead to "mushrik", and (o heck, i can't remember, o yes, "hypocrite", and then we end up back to "Shaytain and His Allies"--a most unfortunate decline, which of course, ends up exposing the original posters' (gasp!) fallablilties. All the knowledge in the world doesn't trump true Fear of God. Remember, truth exposes falsehood, so let ALLAH do the job of deciding who is what. You have a brain. Ponder, perhaps disagree, post the Qur'anic citations you have, what is inspired to you--and there, you have taken a Straight Path inshaa' ALLAH
P.S. I admire anyone when they take the time to post their citations. (I haven't got to that point yet. Sorry)
Peace be with you
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Dear @FearGod i feel i owe you an apology, because i fear ALLAH too, and i regret that "shot" i took about the un-named poster i mentioned, with whom i know you are familiar.
ALLAH says "no back-biting" and i slipped and did that. Please forgive me. I should have prayed B4 that post, but i did after, so now here i am, saying i am sorry.
Please do consider what i am asking you, about calling names. See? it's a slippery slope, and doesn't bring out the best usually.
Salaam, Alleycats
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Peace, Alleycats.
Of course, I'm sure that's the commonly accepted viewpoint concerning this issue. However, I didn't want to refer to it this way, as it's a subjective position not everyone agrees that the Qur'aan was written by ALLAH (God). My post was meant with that idea in mind... Also, with regard to people comprehending the wisdom of ALLAH, we have to keep in mind that not everyone believes in the concept of deity and divinity. Therefore, to some people, they have already exceeded the wisdom of ALLAH - at least as far as the Qur'aan is concerned. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this position, but it certainly exists...
In addition, we can reasonably conclude that the Qur'aan was written FROM the perspective of the 7th century Arabs due to it being written (or, at least compiled) by 7th century Arabs. It was written in their language, citing features and examples prevalent in their culture, and composed of passages that they'd understand. We can't reasonably conclude that it was written for all of humanity, as (obviously) all of humanity can't read, write or understand Arabic language and culture. So, we can objectively state that it was most likely written FOR them, if not BY them.
Do you disagree?
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace to you Ahmad
I found this quote in the Qur'aan
This Qur'an could never have been devised by any besides Allah. Rather it is confirmation of what came before it and an elucidation of the Book which contains no doubt from the Lord of all the worlds. Do they say, "He has invented it"? Say "Then produce a sura like it and call on anyone you can besides Allah if you are telling the truth." (Qur'an, 1037-3
Do you really disagree??
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a beautiful literary work ???,why not saying somehow similar to enjoying reading the literary work of Shakespeare.
Let me teach you to realize the beauty of such literary work of the quran when combined with knowledge and not with ignorance assuming that you know arabic language.
I see several misconceptions here.
- the Koran describes what people saw.
- the description is accurate to a 7th century nomad or farmer, but it is not scientifically accurate or precise.
- just because something is nice or beautiful does not make it true.
By the way i have challenged many atheists to bring a better verse than this one from their own minds in other forums and they didn't bring any one sentence and it ended with their anger with some insults and then deleting the thread by mods.
I have been in situations which you describe and it always gets me angry. Humans have looked at the challenge of "bring a surah like it" and have found too many flaws in it to take it seriously. Maybe I should start a separate thread on this to stop people from embarrassing themselves with this.
What is the challenge according to the Koran? What needs to be presented?
1788 Koran
223 a single chapter (surah)
1037-38 a single chapter (surah)
1113 10 chapters (surahs)
5233-34 anythingSo which one do you pick? What exactly is the challenge? How many lines, chapters or anything?
What is the definition of "like it"? What is "like" a James Bond novel or the Ramavataram?
A book, a painting, a play, a movie, an opera, a piece of music is art and thus always unique.
What is considered "like it" and who will be the judges? If I submit a chapter to you, who will judge it? You? And who else?
Over the centuries, many Arabs have either criticised this challenge or have met it - and were rejected.Why were they rejected? because the other problem with the challenge is that it is not sincere.
"But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith" 2.24So the challenge is a dummy. Are you still surprised that people get irritated when confronted with this? And this is not by any means the complete picture of all the problems with this. Please don't use it.
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I see several misconceptions here.
- the Koran describes what people saw.
- the description is accurate to a 7th century nomad or farmer, but it is not scientifically accurate or precise.
- just because something is nice or beautiful does not make it true.
Just one verse from the quran is enough to refute your 3 false statements
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?..
They didn't see the universe as one entity before the separation and it wasn't known in the 7th century and it is perfect and true statement.
I have been in situations which you describe and it always gets me angry. Humans have looked at the challenge of "bring a surah like it" and have found too many flaws in it to take it seriously. Maybe I should start a separate thread on this to stop people from embarrassing themselves with this.
What is the challenge according to the Koran? What needs to be presented?
1788 Koran
223 a single chapter (surah)
1037-38 a single chapter (surah)
1113 10 chapters (surahs)
5233-34 anythingSo which one do you pick? What exactly is the challenge? How many lines, chapters or anything?
What is the definition of "like it"? What is "like" a James Bond novel or the Ramavataram?
A book, a painting, a play, a movie, an opera, a piece of music is art and thus always unique.
What is considered "like it" and who will be the judges? If I submit a chapter to you, who will judge it? You? And who else?
Over the centuries, many Arabs have either criticised this challenge or have met it - and were rejected.Why were they rejected? because the other problem with the challenge is that it is not sincere.
"But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith" 2.24So the challenge is a dummy. Are you still surprised that people get irritated when confronted with this? And this is not by any means the complete picture of all the problems with this. Please don't use it.
Regarding verse 224,then yes god is warning us to be aware that he is the truth and if we don't believe then he challenged us to try to have a better verses than his and then if we failed then we should be aware and fear punishment which as truth as his challenge.
Let me bring to you the first verse which i had explained and then bring from your own language a better verse describing the day night phenomenon and should be as short as the one in the verse and if you think it was wrong then bring to us the right description in a beautiful wise way,what i meant by short is (A word to the wise is sufficient)
So lets start the challenge and in your own language
Allah causeth the (revolution, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see. (2444)
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Peace, Alleycats.
I found this quote in the Qur'aan
This Qur'an could never have been devised by any besides Allah. Rather it is confirmation of what came before it and an elucidation of the Book which contains no doubt from the Lord of all the worlds. Do they say, "He has invented it"? Say "Then produce a sura like it and call on anyone you can besides Allah if you are telling the truth." (Qur'an, 1037-3
Do you really disagree??
The idea of me disagreeing with the statement isn't a factor. The quran is the book that makes the assertion. My question is, Is there any way for you to prove that the quran was written (or 'devised' by Allah?
Sure, it may confirm some of the ideals that predated it, such as the Torah and Injiyl (which I'm not even sure what the "Injiyl" is); but that doesn't particularly prove anything. That passage was primarily written for the Jews, and possibly the Christians in the region as well. The evidence for this is in the wording. For example, if I'm a Buddhist or a Taoist, then the idea of the quran 'confirming' (or restating) the Torah means absolutely nothing, since the Torah could potentially be wrong too!
Let's say I wrote this down in a book
"This book could never have been devised by any besides Zeus. Rather it is confirmation of the Iliad that came before it and an elucidation of the Odyssey which contains no doubt from the lords of all the worlds. Do they say, 'Hermes has invented it'? Say 'Then produce a chapter like it and call on anyone you can besides Zeus if you are telling the truth.'"
Would you accept the book as being authentic, solely based on its own declaration of being 'divinely inspired'? Or would you be skeptical?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
Just one verse from the quran is enough to refute your 3 false statements
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?..
They didn't see the universe as one entity before the separation and it wasn't known in the 7th century and it is perfect and true statement.
Actually, the Quran isn't very specific on this issue either, which is why there's a contradicting account in the same book!
"Then He (Allah) directed Himself to the heaven and it is 'dukhan'/smoke, so He said to it and to the earth, 'Come both, willingly or unwillingly.' They both said, 'We come willingly.'" (Q. 4111)
According to this passage, which is also in the Quran, the Universe didn't start off as one entity that Allah pulled apart - it started off as two separate entities that Allah joined together... And I won't even touch on the Quran's ridiculous assertion that the Universe was "smoke" prior to its modern development. That factor is clear enough.
So lets start the challenge and in your own language
Allah causeth the (revolution, flipping) of the day and the night. Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for those who see. (2444)
I asked you before, in this same thread, how the night and day 'flip' and 'revolve' around the Earth, and you never answered my question. Asking someone else about this same ridiculous concept doesn't fix the issue either. If you can, I'd still like for you to answer my question. In reading this passage from the Quran, is it saying that the Earth is flipping (or rotating)? Or is it saying that the night and day are flipping? This question makes all the difference when it comes to determining the book's degree of accuracy or nonsense.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
Actually, the Quran isn't very specific on this issue either, which is why there's a contradicting account in the same book!
"Then He (Allah) directed Himself to the heaven and it is 'dukhan'/smoke, so He said to it and to the earth, 'Come both, willingly or unwillingly.' They both said, 'We come willingly.'" (Q. 4111)
According to this passage, which is also in the Quran, the Universe didn't start off as one entity that Allah pulled apart - it started off as two separate entities that Allah joined together... And I won't even touch on the Quran's ridiculous assertion that the Universe was "smoke" prior to its modern development. That factor is clear enough.
Where is the contradiction ?
One entity and smoke both are discussed in modern cosmology as the origin of our universe
http//i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/25/article-0-15334C62000005DC-14_964x710.jpg
I asked you before, in this same thread, how the night and day 'flip' and 'revolve' around the Earth, and you never answered my question. Asking someone else about this same ridiculous concept doesn't fix the issue either. If you can, I'd still like for you to answer my question. In reading this passage from the Quran, is it saying that the Earth is flipping (or rotating)? Or is it saying that the night and day are flipping? This question makes all the difference when it comes to determining the book's degree of accuracy or nonsense.
Peace,
Ahmad
i have explained it to you but you don't want to understand,did you see the night (darkness) moving,it is OK if we want to believe the day (sun) to be moving but the darkness (night) moves.
the verses is describing the day night phenomenon and not the planets movements.
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Peace, FearGod.
One entity and smoke both are discussed in modern cosmology as the origin of our universe
Ummmm, are you being serious?! There was no "smoke" at the beginning of the Universe! Who told you this nonsense? Have you ever looked through a science (particularly astronomy or cosmology) book? If you're really trying to propose that the Universe actually came from "smoke", or that smoke was anywhere around during the formation of the Universe, then there's no point in us having this discussion, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about...
the verses is describing the day night phenomenon and not the planets movements.
Again, the problem is, THIS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION! The Quran clearly states that the day and night rotate, not that the planets rotate. You can make whatever assumptions you'd like, based on modern scientific research. However, the book says what it says. Obviously, according to you, whoever wrote the Quran wasn't clear enough about what he meant.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
Ummmm, are you being serious?! There was no "smoke" at the beginning of the Universe! Who told you this nonsense? Have you ever looked through a science (particularly astronomy or cosmology) book? If you're really trying to propose that the Universe actually came from "smoke", or that smoke was anywhere around during the formation of the Universe, then there's no point in us having this discussion, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about...
i don't believe that we're in the 21th century and there is still some one ignorants about simple informations in cosmology
Watch this video it may help you to understand that there is still smoke and there is still new stars born from it.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=80eMTnnLjhs
Again, the problem is, THIS IS YOUR INTERPRETATION! The Quran clearly states that the day and night rotate, not that the planets rotate. You can make whatever assumptions you'd like, based on modern scientific research. However, the book says what it says. Obviously, according to you, whoever wrote the Quran wasn't clear enough about what he meant.
Peace,
Ahmad
The problem is one of 2,either you have a difficulty to understand or you don't want to understand.
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Peace,
Maybe you both look in books from different schools?
Relax a lil', it aint like the world's gonna fall apart ya know.
Edit ... over yer little issue. Maybe the world will fall apart due to other reasons, God only knows.
God bless you
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Peace FearGod,
No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places
a curse upon those who refuse to understand.Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs
and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.and
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without
justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe.
And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but
when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the
consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.and
Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder,
or the dead to speak (they will not believe). GOD controls all things. Is it not time
for the believers to give up and realize that if GOD willed, He could have guided all
the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of
their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until GOD's promise is fulfilled.
GOD will never change the predetermined destiny.and finally
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your way, and to me is my way."
GOD BLESS
peace
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Peace, FearGod.
i don't believe that we're in the 21th century and there is still some one ignorants about simple informations in cosmology
Watch this video it may help you to understand that there is still smoke and there is still new stars born from it.
It appears that YOU are the ignorant one. Can you not understand that "gas" and "smoke" are two different things?
The problem is one of 2,either you have a difficulty to understand or you don't want to understand.
I'm not going to debate the second point anymore with you, because you clearly don't know what you're talking about... Do some research. Until you understand what you're trying to assert, then this is a pointless discussion.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
It appears that YOU are the ignorant one. Can you not understand that "gas" and "smoke" are two different things?
Your problem is even more than ignorance.
We have 3 states, gas,liquid and solid.
Now you are confused if the smoke is liquid,solid or gas
Just try to touch the smoke and you can know if it is touchable and feels like liquid,solid or gas.
You have a big problem,but i'll try to help you a little.Try to search for the word "gas" in old scriptures,then if you found one,then you may start to think & understand.
I'm not going to debate the second point anymore with you, because you clearly don't know what you're talking about... Do some research. Until you understand what you're trying to assert, then this is a pointless discussion.
Peace,
Ahmad
i was afraid that you don't want to understand but i realize now that you have some difficulties to understand,so yes,debating with you is pointless since even you don't know that gas is a new word in our vocabulary.
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Peace, FearGod.
We have 3 states, gas,liquid and solid.
Now you are confused if the smoke is liquid,solid or gas
Just try to touch the smoke and you can know if it is touchable and feels like liquid,solid or gas.
You have a big problem,but i'll try to help you a little.Try to search for the word "gas" in old scriptures,then if you found one,then you may start to think & understand.
You clearly haven't studied the Quran, because it conflicts with the most basic of scientific ideas concerning cosmology. Let's look at the entire passage, so we can try to authenticate your position.
Say, "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask." (Q. 419, 10)
Ok, so this is pretty simple. It's clearly saying that God created the Earth and placed everything upon it during this period. However, the problem comes along in the next passage, which you keep foolishly pointing out
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (Q. 4111)
Are you getting this now?
Smoke is comprised of organic particles and burning material fragments, resulting in the expansive release of heated carbon. If you're proposing that this is the Quran's description of the big bang, then this creates a major problem - THERE ARE NO ORGANIC MATERIALS! So, where did the smoke come from? Again, "smoke" and "gas" are two entirely different things. If God is the Universal creator, and he also authored the Quran, then he should've already known this, and he should've cleared up the differences between the two. Otherwise, you run into clear discrepancies like this one... In addition, if you're asserting that the Quran is talking about the big bang here, then where did the Earth come from? Is the Quran claiming that the Earth was here, along with hills and vegetation ('sustenance', BEFORE the big bang?
If you read the Quran's 49th chapter (surah), from the 9th to the 11th verse (aya), you'll see that this is exactly what it's saying! And that, sir, is complete nonsense.
i was afraid that you don't want to understand but i realize now that you have some difficulties to understand,so yes,debating with you is pointless since even you don't know that gas is a new word in our vocabulary.
Ummm, ok... Anyway, the point is very clear; you're just unwilling to grasp it. Here's it put simply you're reading the passage and making your own interpretation of it, while I'm reading the passage exactly as it's written. Simple enough?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, FearGod.
You clearly haven't studied the Quran, because it conflicts with the most basic of scientific ideas concerning cosmology. Let's look at the entire passage, so we can try to authenticate your position.
Say, "Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask." (Q. 419, 10)
Ok, so this is pretty simple. It's clearly saying that God created the Earth and placed everything upon it during this period. However, the problem comes along in the next passage, which you keep foolishly pointing out
Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient. (Q. 4111)
Are you getting this now?
Smoke is comprised of organic particles and burning material fragments, resulting in the expansive release of heated carbon. If you're proposing that this is the Quran's description of the big bang, then this creates a major problem - THERE ARE NO ORGANIC MATERIALS! So, where did the smoke come from? Again, "smoke" and "gas" are two entirely different things. If God is the Universal creator, and he also authored the Quran, then he should've already known this, and he should've cleared up the differences between the two. Otherwise, you run into clear discrepancies like this one... In addition, if you're asserting that the Quran is talking about the big bang here, then where did the Earth come from? Is the Quran claiming that the Earth was here, along with hills and vegetation ('sustenance', BEFORE the big bang?
If you read the Quran's 49th chapter (surah), from the 9th to the 11th verse (aya), you'll see that this is exactly what it's saying! And that, sir, is complete nonsense.
Ummm, ok... Anyway, the point is very clear; you're just unwilling to grasp it. Here's it put simply you're reading the passage and making your own interpretation of it, while I'm reading the passage exactly as it's written. Simple enough?
Peace,
Ahmad
http//cseligman.com/text/galaxies/m82infrared.jpg
Chapter 9 Structure and Formation of Stars
The space between stars is called interstellar medium. This space or medium is not completely devoid of matter. The space is filled with hydrogen 75% and helium 25%, traces of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, sodium, molecular hydrogen and silicates. The matter is non-uniformly distributed, presence of hot , low density gas currents circulating in the medium and generating twisted complex tangle of cool, dense clouds like the puff of a cigarette smoke.
Reference http//www2.potsdam.edu/islamma/Phys335Ch09FormationStars.htm
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Peace,
Just a thought, but is smoke not the particles of burnt materials, while gas is a substance matter?
It is two different things I am afraid. Gas is new because ancient people did not know what gas was in the first place. Gas is one of the forms a substance can take.
God bless you
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Peace, FearGod.
Chapter 9 Structure and Formation of Stars
The space between stars is called interstellar medium. This space or medium is not completely devoid of matter. The space is filled with hydrogen 75% and helium 25%, traces of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, sodium, molecular hydrogen and silicates. The matter is non-uniformly distributed, presence of hot , low density gas currents circulating in the medium and generating twisted complex tangle of cool, dense clouds like the puff of a cigarette smoke.
Reference http//www2.potsdam.edu/islamma/Phys335Ch09FormationStars.htm
I get this, and this is NOT what we're talking about... Compositional elements are all derived from hydrogen, including helium. You're talking about elemental particles in space TODAY, which didn't contain the same factors prior to the big bang. Again, we're not talking about now; we're talking about billions of years ago, when there were no organic particles and (according to Islamic clerics and the general Muslim populace) no matter, since Allah created everything ex nihilo (out of nothing).
So, again, DURING THAT TIME, where did the "smoke" come from?
And, again, if you're proposing that the Universe was created out of smoke (since this is obviously the "gas" that you're trying to infer in your analysis of the big bang, which is completely wrong), how did this happen AFTER the Earth was already present and populated? How was the sky (or 'heavens' still "smoke" while the Earth already had mountains, plants, etc.? How did God separate the Earth from the sky (or 'heavens', if the Earth is still in space? Is the Quran trying to imply that the Earth is somehow separate from the Universe, or was the Earth formerly separate from the Universe when God decided to put the two (separate) objects together?
Are you grasping this now?
Weighing the Quran on the basis of philosophy, especially when further defined and characterized by its outstanding literary fixtures, is fine. However, trying to present it as some sort of 'science book' doesn't work, because it clearly doesn't add up. You're trying to force the Quran to agree with modern science, when it clearly doesn't.
Peace,
Ahmad