Killing people to prevent corruption, right? Or wrong and leave it to God...
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Peace Bigmo,
Sorry I didn't see your previous message. So if someone murders someone else then God allows us to kill that person?
A life for a life and an eye for an eye.. how about if someone hit you, does that then encourage you to hit them back? Is it better for us not to forgive? Or is that too "gentle"...
Peace
The Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
The Quran says if someone greets you than do so in equal way or better. If someone harm you than you have the right of equal retribution but forgiveness is a form of charity. Another words its better. There are manyu such examples in the Quran.
However the verses we are talking about in this thread is about intentional murder. The Quran does not say to let that person off the hook. It says you can exile him or her from the community as a lesser form of punishment as many nations today do.
The important part here is the higher ceiling. Capital punishment can only be adminstered when we are dealing with intentional murder wothout proper cause. But we don't have to do so. A punishment of lesser degree is allowed.
For manslaughter (unintentional killing) the Quran stipulated financial compensation of some sort but allowed letting off the hook as charity and even encouraged that since the person did not intend on that.
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Peace hawkninetynine,
So looking at thay verse you quoted, does that then exonerate a mentally ill person from 533?
PeaceThe just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.
Exempted are those who repent before you overcome them. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
War crimes are punishable according to the severity of the perpetrators commision of the crimes against
humanity from execution to incarceration to banishment. One would not be generally excused or even diagnosed
as mentally ill in the case of war crimes. Take note of adolph hitler, saddam hussein, Slobodan Milo?evi, were
they mentally ill? They could not prove mental illness or were not allowed to. Those who commit horrendous
crimes also fall into this category, they too face severe sentences unless they desist, repent, turn themselves
over to the authorities thereby they can initiate a request for a lighter sentence.Peace
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The Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
The Quran says if someone greets you than do so in equal way or better. If someone harm you than you have the right of equal retribution but forgiveness is a form of charity. Another words its better. There are manyu such examples in the Quran.
However the verses we are talking about in this thread is about intentional murder. The Quran does not say to let that person off the hook. It says you can exile him or her from the community as a lesser form of punishment as many nations today do.
The important part here is the higher ceiling. Capital punishment can only be adminstered when we are dealing with intentional murder wothout proper cause. But we don't have to do so. A punishment of lesser degree is allowed.
For manslaughter (unintentional killing) the Quran stipulated financial compensation of some sort but allowed letting off the hook as charity and even encouraged that since the person did not intend on that.
Peace Bigmo,
I understand now. This does seem reasonable to me and atonement if we forgive seems to be encouraged, since there is a verse that says killing someone is like killing the whole of mankind, so regardless the option of killing is always a cautious one.
Peace peace
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Salam mmkhan
Peace sushi,
I think I was discussing on "killing those who seek corruption", my answer at this time is yes, we cannot kill them for corruption. I might be wrong, may Allah forgive and correct me if I am wrong.
But punishment for killing someone is killing done by us is correct.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan
how you are defining corruption?? i think the Quran speaks from 'fassad' - what Pharao he does. Pharao kills many people. hmm
Peace mirjamnur,
A similar question goes to you that I gave Bigmo. We are allowed to proclaim capital punishment? What if we forgive them for murdering, or lock them up for life?
Peace peace
Salam Sushi
Bigmo gave allready the AnswerThe Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
Thank you and peace
Also for your first question i think Bigmo answered in a good and clear wayThe Quran never said that if someone harms you than you have to harm him. It simply said that if you ever decide to retalitate than you must do so with equal retribution and not disproportionate justice. Quran does encourage forgiveness.
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
The Quran says if someone greets you than do so in equal way or better. If someone harm you than you have the right of equal retribution but forgiveness is a form of charity. Another words its better. There are manyu such examples in the Quran.
However the verses we are talking about in this thread is about intentional murder. The Quran does not say to let that person off the hook. It says you can exile him or her from the community as a lesser form of punishment as many nations today do.
The important part here is the higher ceiling. Capital punishment can only be adminstered when we are dealing with intentional murder wothout proper cause. But we don't have to do so. A punishment of lesser degree is allowed.
For manslaughter (unintentional killing) the Quran stipulated financial compensation of some sort but allowed letting off the hook as charity and even encouraged that since the person did not intend on that.
peace
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Salam mmkhanhow you are defining corruption?? i think the Quran speaks from 'fassad' - what Pharao he does. Pharao kills many people. hmm
Salaam mirjamnur,
Can you please get me those aayaat.
As per 230 doing fasaad is different then spreading blood. Please take a look.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 5.45
Salaam,
This is not for us but for them i.e., Haadu . Feeha means therein in 545 is referring to alTawraat as per 544.
Besides this...
4134
4134 And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel by that which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity as though he was a devoted friend.4135
4135 But none is granted it except those who are patient, and none is granted it except one having a great portion.4136
4136 And if there comes to you from Satan an evil suggestion, then seek refuge in Allah. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
4148
4148 Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.4149
4149 If you show good or conceal it or pardon an offense - indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Competent.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
Salam mmkhanhow you are defining corruption?? i think the Quran speaks from 'fassad' - what Pharao he does. Pharao kills many people. hmm
Salam Sushi
Bigmo gave allready the Answer Thank you and peace
Also for your first question i think Bigmo answered in a good and clear waypeacePeace mirjamnur,
Sorry I saw bigmos post late as I was typing a reply on my phone.
I initially got my question from reading a thread between aryan warrior and abdul hadi.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604740.msg315473#msg315473
If you quickly look at the firdt page or so you can see my view on what seeking corruption is based closely on how abdul hadi puts it. By looking at a few other verses (which I would quote but it's difficult doing it via phone), we know that killing a life is like as bad as killing the whole of mankind. Which is why I was thinking that capital punishment might still be frowned upon if there are lesser detrimental punishments that could be given, like locking them up for life,but nnone the less, capital punishment is still available for people previously mentioned such as adolf hitler.
Peace peace
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Salaam,
This is not for us but for them i.e., Haadu . Feeha means therein in 545 is referring to alTawraat as per 544.
Besides this...
4134
4134 And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel by that which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity as though he was a devoted friend.4135
4135 But none is granted it except those who are patient, and none is granted it except one having a great portion.4136
4136 And if there comes to you from Satan an evil suggestion, then seek refuge in Allah. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
4148
4148 Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.4149
4149 If you show good or conceal it or pardon an offense - indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Competent.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhanPeace mmkhan,
I like the verses you posted as it shows should always go for a better option. Also, if verse 545 is for them then what about "us"? hmm
Peace peace
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Peace mmkhan,
I like the verses you posted as it shows should always go for a better option. Also, if verse 545 is for them then what about "us"? hmm
Peace peace
There is no for them and for us. Thats Sunni talk. The Quran simply reminded the Israelites of how God sees justice. The same as
O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female; but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then (the demand for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good man?ner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this, he shall have a painful chastisement . And there is life for you in the retali?ation, O men of understanding, that you may guard your-selves (against evil) .
23.177 - 178This is how the Quran undersand justice for anything. However exception can be made but over all its about the punishment should fit the crime and not deterence (Islam) or disproportionate (Judaism).
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laugh
There is no for them and for us. Thats Sunni talk. The Quran simply reminded the Israelites of how God sees justice. The same as
O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female; but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then (the demand for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good man?ner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this, he shall have a painful chastisement . And there is life for you in the retali?ation, O men of understanding, that you may guard your-selves (against evil) .
23.177 - 178This is how the Quran undersand justice for anything. However exception can be made but over all its about the punishment should fit the crime and not deterence (Islam) or disproportionate (Judaism).
Just to let you know I wasn't under any impression that there should be a difference between us and them, I was clarifying what mmkhan was trying to say. Also I was never brought up as a sunni, so I would kindly ask you to refrain from making such reference to me, I merely asking for clarity in his views. Your contribution is most helpful and I'm fully in conjunction with what the quran says. Im assuming when you say islam does deterence it is not the true islam which is peacefulness that we are talking about....
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Salaam mirjamnur,
Can you please get me those aayaat.
As per 230 doing fasaad is different then spreading blood. Please take a look.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhanSalam mmkhan
Fassad fil ard
On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.This verse follows verses 26-31 which refer to the incident in which Qabil (Cain), son of Adam, killed his brother Habil (Abel).
This Quranic term has been utilised for serious evildoers such as the likes of Pharaoh who transgressed all bounds (8911-12) by slaughtering children
(7.141), oppressing people
(284), by heaping on and multiplying iniquities causing outright corruption in the land.
Other communities such as the Thamud or the people of Aad (891-9) have been similarly described as those who seriously transgressed.
In chapter 18, (Al-Kahf) of the Qur'an, verse 94, The people of Gog and Magog make "mischief in the land" (mufsiduna fi al-ard)
They said, "O Zul-Qarnain, Gog and Magog make mischief in the land. Can we pay you to create a barrier between us and them?"
it is said do not cause "corruption in the land" (tufsiduuna fi al-ard)
When it is said to them, "do not cause mischief in the land"...Those who cause mischief in the land (yufsiduna fi al-ard)are counted as "the losers"
Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth Those are they who are the losersAll these transgressors were utterly destroyed (8913).
089.010-12
?And with Pharaoh, lord of the ?Awtad?. (All) these transgressed beyond bounds in the lands, And heaped in it mischief002205 A type of man that causes corruption by destroying crops and cattle
007085 People of Prophet Shoaib (in Midian) that created mischief in the land and were warned by the messenger (and later utterly destroyed)
peace ) -
laugh
Just to let you know I wasn't under any impression that there should be a difference between us and them, I was clarifying what mmkhan was trying to say. Also I was never brought up as a sunni, so I would kindly ask you to refrain from making such reference to me, I merely asking for clarity in his views. Your contribution is most helpful and I'm fully in conjunction with what the quran says. Im assuming when you say islam does deterence it is not the true islam which is peacefulness that we are talking about....I said thats Sunni talk not just refering to you. Remember there are many who read these threads but do not post themselves. That is who I really care about since they are the majority. Many live in Islamic countries and hear such arguments like Jews should live under Jewish law and Muslims have their shariah etc.
Yes, deterence meaning the believe that the punishment can be harsh like how they understanding punishing thieves thinking it is to deter robbery. Robbery and murder and rape will always exist. Quran is concerned about justice. Apostasy law is often justified as deterence against misguiding Muslims and trying to make them disbelieve or to deter people from insulting Islam etc. Dictators usually follow the deterence principle to scare away any opposition.
The eye for an eye principle simply means the right side of the scale is equal to the left side. And eye for a tooth is like one side has an eye the other a tooth. The scale won't balance.
That is the symbol of justice
https//www.google.ae/search?q=justice+symbol&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=mybsUNmYIMaN0wWt5YD4Dw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=599#hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&q=scales+of+justice+symbol&revid=893976144&sa=X&ei=nibsUIOSBYub1AWanoGwBQ&ved=0CFEQgxY&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357316858,d.d2k&fp=d30887c139ec60b1&biw=1280&bih=599
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Salam mmkhan
Fassad fil ard
On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.This verse follows verses 26-31 which refer to the incident in which Qabil (Cain), son of Adam, killed his brother Habil (Abel).
Salaam mirjamnur,
Thank you for all aayaat.
You contradict yourself, none of the aayaat that you quoted said that who are doing fasaad in earth should be killed or got their punishment as killing by you. Allah destroys them yes
The topic from 27-31 is only about QTL not about FSD. Fasaad is added as another option in 532.
- Allah did not ask Musa to give a punch to Firaun, but he drowned because of Allah's punishment.
- Zulqarnain did not kill yajooj and majooj, but he raised a wall between them and those people.
- Shoeb did not kill anyone for mischief or corruption in earth.
So, we cannot kill anyone for doing fasaad on earth, but Allah will punish them for sure. This is how I understand it.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
I said thats Sunni talk not just refering to you. Remember there are many who read these threads but do not post themselves. That is who I really care about since they are the majority. Many live in Islamic countries and hear such arguments like Jews should live under Jewish law and Muslims have their shariah etc.
Yes, deterence meaning the believe that the punishment can be harsh like how they understanding punishing thieves thinking it is to deter robbery. Robbery and murder and rape will always exist. Quran is concerned about justice. Apostasy law is often justified as deterence against misguiding Muslims and trying to make them disbelieve or to deter people from insulting Islam etc. Dictators usually follow the deterence principle to scare away any opposition.
The eye for an eye principle simply means the right side of the scale is equal to the left side. And eye for a tooth is like one side has an eye the other a tooth. The scale won't balance.
That is the symbol of justice
https//www.google.ae/search?q=justice+symbol&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=mybsUNmYIMaN0wWt5YD4Dw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=599#hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&q=scales+of+justice+symbol&revid=893976144&sa=X&ei=nibsUIOSBYub1AWanoGwBQ&ved=0CFEQgxY&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357316858,d.d2k&fp=d30887c139ec60b1&biw=1280&bih=599
I apologize for jumping to the wrong assumption. I understand what you are saying. I live amongst the UK so it's probably a little more difficult to understand the way things work in jewish or "muslim" countries. I'm also familiar with the scales. I'm all for justice being made in every angle correctly and as fairly but firmly as possible.
peace
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Salaam mirjamnur,
Thank you for all aayaat.
You contradict yourself, none of the aayaat that you quoted said that who are doing fasaad in earth should be killed or got their punishment as killing by you. Allah destroys them yes
The topic from 27-31 is only about QTL not about FSD. Fasaad is added as another option in 532.
- Allah did not ask Musa to give a punch to Firaun, but he drowned because of Allah's punishment.
- Zulqarnain did not kill yajooj and majooj, but he raised a wall between them and those people.
- Shoeb did not kill anyone for mischief or corruption in earth.
So, we cannot kill anyone for doing fasaad on earth, but Allah will punish them for sure. This is how I understand it.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhanI'm useless with arabic. Could anyone confirm the presence of capital punishment by using the arabic? If anyone knows .
peace
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Salaam mirjamnur,
Thank you for all aayaat.
You contradict yourself, none of the aayaat that you quoted said that who are doing fasaad in earth should be killed or got their punishment as killing by you. Allah destroys them yes
The topic from 27-31 is only about QTL not about FSD. Fasaad is added as another option in 532.
- Allah did not ask Musa to give a punch to Firaun, but he drowned because of Allah's punishment.
- Zulqarnain did not kill yajooj and majooj, but he raised a wall between them and those people.
- Shoeb did not kill anyone for mischief or corruption in earth.
So, we cannot kill anyone for doing fasaad on earth, but Allah will punish them for sure. This is how I understand it.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhanWhen we deal with Quran we should look at what is explicit and go with that. Implicit must not be acted upon since there can be various ways to interpret it. Trying to interpret implicit verses or implicit terms makes us go in circles. At least that been my experience.
When we look at the verse we are dealing with here we can see that the verse came regarding premediated murder and its explicitly mentioned as such.
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Salaam mirjamnur,
Thank you for all aayaat.
You contradict yourself, none of the aayaat that you quoted said that who are doing fasaad in earth should be killed or got their punishment as killing by you. Allah destroys them yes
no, & because Allah states on other place the law for murder soul for soul - and Fassad can include murder. (see my answer down) I'm agree with you not all fassad is actuel murder.
The topic from 27-31 is only about QTL not about FSD. Fasaad is added as another option in 532.
yes, the Ayats speak of manslaughter. Cain, who killed his brother Abel was the first murderer. Manslaughter / murder is part of Fassad (see Faraun, the children killed).
- Allah did not ask Musa to give a punch to Firaun, but he drowned because of Allah's punishment.
- Zulqarnain did not kill yajooj and majooj, but he raised a wall between them and those people.
- Shoeb did not kill anyone for mischief or corruption in earth.
Yes you are right, but we found in an other place the quranic law soul for soul. So,if someone commits Fassad by killing someone, it is allowed to Quranic law (justice), to kill the murderer. (Except one who is not responsible for his actions). However, forgiveness is better-I see the examples that you gave above in the light of the followGod shows us with these examples that it is better to find solutions other than revenge, and that HE is still here ....and at last, we will found ALL the reward for our deeds good or bad
So, we cannot kill anyone for doing fasaad on earth, but Allah will punish them for sure. This is how I understand it.
not agree. see above. I will give you an example what you think about
http//libguides.udayton.edu/content.php?pid=108383&sid=818822
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB2MalxaJDE]http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QMlt4Pc5iI
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB2MalxaJDETo cruelty, torture, child abuse, killing, there are millions of examples. It's better to forgive, but what do you think when your child is-dismembered or mutilated in front of your eyes---what you would do? Or want to do?
From my perspective, God would not be just when he would not give us the opportunity to expiate a crime by a "revenge death can be in my eyes an humanitarian effort because there are monsters who delight in the agony of the victims and are enjoy and happy to torture and kill.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us to His only path pr
yes indeed. peace
mmKhan