Is "free will" limited by omniscience?
-
Since I have bumped into the issue of "free will" repeatedly, I thought I would collect views on this topic in a dedicated thread to see what people think about this.
Looking at my understanding, I would say that "free will", not defined in the Koran but by humans, is the ability of a human to take decisions and act on these regardless of spiritual limitations.
This means that a person can
- steal a smartphone
- eat pork
- shave
without any immediate repercussions.
In the case of the smartphone theft the impact on worldly law is high if the person is caught and the impact due to spiritual commands is also high because it is clearly stipulated that a person should not steal.
In the case of the pork, the worldly impact is zero on law, but could be detrimental to one's health in the case of swine flu or diseases. The spiritual impact is high due to a direct command not to eat pork.
In the case of shaving the worldly impact is a total zero and the spiritual impact is debatable, as the Koran does not stipulate any specific beard length, but some traditions do.
Looking at this in a more general way, in a non-religious consideration, a person has biological restrictions, such as not eating dangerous food which smells off and looks off and we abhor eating human meat. Otherwise, humans have the freedom to do as they please until they encroach on the freedom of the next person.
This means that humans have come up with rules regulating the side-by-side existence of many humans. Stealing someone else's property is such a case and will be punished through another human.
Stealing is also prohibited in the religious context as it is mentioned in the Koran, but, according to what the followers believe, should be punished both, by a human, and again at some later stage after the culprit is dead because the worldly crime is also a spiritual sin.
(If I am wrong on this, please correct me. This is to the best of my knowledge what I have been led to believe. I will also not quote all the sentences in the Koran as I would feel stupid showing people here something they are experts in. I hope that this is in order.)What I hope to have established is that humans can do pretty much what they want, bound by social and biological limitations. In addition to the worldly consequences there is an added dimension, where spiritual restrictions impose punishment on believers as a consequence of their behaviour. Most of these consequences will be administered in the form of punishment in an afterlife, but some lead to immediate, physical punishment here on Earth. This means that the physical, worldly freedom of choice and the consequences are very clear and defined. But what about the spiritual ones?
If a true believer of what is stipulated in the Koran steals a smartphone, she/he will be in conflict with both, human and spiritual law and will be assigned a punishment. Then the culprit will be released. The spiritual crime is called sin and does not have a dedicated and explicit consequence. Unlike with human law, there is no catalogue, assigning a dedicated punishment to a given crime. Unlike with human law, there is no apparent or implied reasoning for commands such as the prohibition to not eat pork or grow a beard.
Does this mean a person has the ability to choose stealing a phone? Yes. The only problem is that for a believer in the Koran, this can have consequences.
Why? Because the Koran stipulates a prohibition. Is this enforced? No. The only deterrent are the possible consequences at a later stage. So at this level, the choice is purely personal. But at a logical level it is a bit different. Here it is illogical to allow someone an action which is prohibited. Telling a person they are allowed to steal a smartphone is not honest, and, because it is punished, illogical and wrong too.So what happens if I know someone will steal a phone if I leave it lying somewhere and pretend it is not monitored? If I know the person will steal it, am I really testing them? I know what they will do. I am observing them do what I know they will do. Is this a test? Is this a form of objective and unlimited "free will"? Does the person have "free will" and the "freedom of choice" if I already know they will take the phone?
What if I know that the person will steal the phone and this person does not? Well, then I was wrong.
So in summary we see that there are three aspects of "free will"
- the inherent limitation of certain actions
- the human and spiritual limitations with defined consequences here on Earth and undefined consequences in the afterlife excepting the ultimate punishment, hellfire
- the illogical concept of the co-existence of "free will" and omniscience
Summary of what I understand
Humans have built-in barriers which are enhanced in a religious book and associated with the morality of this book which is interpreted to be of divine origins. Due to the divine properties humans should bear in mind the consequences of their supposed "free will" as they are monitored 24/7. Due to omniscience the ability to act without punishment, which is not clearly defined, is highly limited.What do you think?
-
When you say there is "human made inconsistency when it comes to "free will", it again breaks down into excercise of free will by human being (ultimately). Man has been created with free will. He can be made to go against his will by two methods. One is to threaten him physically. The other is to influence his psychology. If compulsion was there, there would have been no dissenters or atheists (6108, 613. In that case men would have been like stones or animals, NOT human!
I think I understand you point. But if a human has freedom in all actions, why is there punishment for something "created" in the mind which is considered normal by all other humans?
The Koran says that "God controls whatever exists in the heavens and on the earth, and He has power over all things." (5120) "Nothing in the heavens or on earth can weaken God, for He is all-knowing and all-powerful." (3544)
How do you have "free will" if you don't actually have control over what you do and everything you do has been anticipated long before you do it?? If you are punished as soon as you make the wrong "free will" decision, are you really free?
"We have shown him the way to be either grateful or ungrateful." (763) provides an illusion of "free will" as in the very next sentence we see where this leads "We have prepared, for the disbelievers, shackles and iron-collars and a blazing Fire.""O mankind, you are those in need of Allah, while Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy." (3515)
Are you actually able to take a decision on your own? -
Since I have bumped into the issue of "free will" repeatedly, I thought I would collect views on this topic in a dedicated thread to see what people think about this.
Looking at my understanding, I would say that "free will", not defined in the Koran but by humans, is the ability of a human to take decisions and act on these regardless of spiritual limitations.
Summary of what I understand
Humans have built-in barriers which are enhanced in a religious book and associated with the morality of this book which is interpreted to be of divine origins. Due to the divine properties humans should bear in mind the consequences of their supposed "free will" as they are monitored 24/7. Due to omniscience the ability to act without punishment, which is not clearly defined, is highly limited.What do you think?
StopS,
Will and Wish are customised and individualised to which shall each, of his free will, either submit and surrender to it in all humility and lead a life with that sense of freedom of an individual taking refuge in the Superior power alone, if he believes that force as One existing and lead a heavenly life even as he lives in this world; or he is free to leave the Will and Wish that would make him descend from the status of a free individual for the rest of his life. Now they choose a collective living in a heavily comprised manner vying and disputing with each other taking refuge within their limited understanding and knowledge and under their own framed law and order, that would make them self-enslaved. This is Quran defined throughout its pages for those who reflect.
Peace
-
I think I understand you point. But if a human has freedom in all actions, why is there punishment for something "created" in the mind which is considered normal by all other humans?
The Koran says that "God controls whatever exists in the heavens and on the earth, and He has power over all things." (5120) "Nothing in the heavens or on earth can weaken God, for He is all-knowing and all-powerful." (3544)
How do you have "free will" if you don't actually have control over what you do and everything you do has been anticipated long before you do it?? If you are punished as soon as you make the wrong "free will" decision, are you really free?
"We have shown him the way to be either grateful or ungrateful." (763) provides an illusion of "free will" as in the very next sentence we see where this leads "We have prepared, for the disbelievers, shackles and iron-collars and a blazing Fire.""O mankind, you are those in need of Allah, while Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy." (3515)
Are you actually able to take a decision on your own?Kindly read very carefully what I am writing. You have quoted a few verses and it would require focus to get a clear understanding.
There is this phrase you have quoted, <inna-Allaha alaa kulli shaihin qadeer> which is traditionally translated as ?Allah has Control over All Things" occurs frequently in the Quran. You got bit confused due to superficial reading of the translation generally provided by translators as ?Allah has Control over All Things". The word ?Qadeer? here (root wod QDR) actually means one who establishes measures and standards. I will quote a few occurrence of this word to make it clear what actually this word means. I will try not to elaborate more.
About rain the Quran says (4311) ?and We bring down rain from clouds according to a measure/standard (QDR)?. In (1317), it says ?after rains, streams flow according to their measure/standard (QDR)?. The Quran says about all universe in (252) ?He created all things and set a measure/standard to them (QDR)?. More precisely in (5449) ?Surely, We created everything according to a measure/ standard (QDR)? The Quran says in (7320) ?Allah has set standards (QDR) to day & night.? Also, about the moon (105) ?Allah has set (QDR) stages for it?. The meaning may be very clear by the following ?The sun is traveling towards its station. This is the measure/standard (QDR) set by the all-knowing and almighty (Allah).? This illustrates the point that has set standards and measures for everything.
Therefore, the verse you have quoted 5120 would mean ?Allah has set measures and standards to all things (according to which they function)! Allah?s control (measures and standards) extends over everything. By dint of being bound by laws, measures and standards, the universe is discoverable, and hence controllable by Man (4513).
This divine control extends also to the social world of humans!
In chapter 3 it says ? ?Those who take pride in being wrong, and expect undue praise, should know they cannot escape Allah?s law. The entire universe is His domain and He is the standard-maker (QDR) of all things? (traditionally translated as Allah has power over all things) (3188-189).
It has been made even clearer in another place of the same chapter The Muslims had to incur some losses in a battle (Uhad). Referring to it, the Quran says ?You said why it had happened to you. Tell them (O Messenger) it happened because of your own selves (doing something wrong) ? Allah is the Measurer (QDR) of all things ?? (traditionally translated as Allah has power over all things) (3165).
In chapter 9 the believers are told ?If you don?t take up arms in Allah?s way, you will get into big problems and Allah will replace you with other people; certainly, Allah is the standard-maker (QDR) of all things!? (939) (traditionally translated as Allah has power over all things).
-
StopS, I think I need to explain the last verse I quoted 939 above, ?If you don?t take up arms in Allah?s way, you will get into big problems and Allah will replace you with other people; certainly, Allah is the standard-maker (QDR) of all things!? (939) (traditionally translated as Allah has power over all things).
Pause a moment and think. This verse states, just like individuals, nations are also bound by Allah?s laws of their rise and fall, revival and extinction. Note, even fall of nations are bound by "Allah's Laws" and it is the reason why it is mentioned 939 (in the context of fall of nations) as Allah is standard-maker of all things (traditionally translated as 'Allah has power over all things'. In other words, their fall and revival is based on certain standards and measures set by Allah. A nation can alter its state according to the change it brings about in its psyche (1311 and 853). No nation survives or dies away whimsically (without cause or reason) ?So that your Protector / Preserver never destroys the abode (of a nation) wrongfully while they are unaware (of its causes)? (632). This is the reason the rise and fall of nations is aptly terms it in Quran as ?a known law?. (154) This is ?Allah?s way? which never changes (3543)
-
StopS, I think I need to explain the last verse I quoted 939 above, ?If you don?t take up arms in Allah?s way, you will get into big problems and Allah will replace you with other people; certainly, Allah is the standard-maker (QDR) of all things!? (939) (traditionally translated as Allah has power over all things).
How does re-translating one sentence I quoted, which does not actually change the deeper meaning, have any impact on "free will"?
And how does this affect the claimed omniscience as opposed to "free will"? -
How does re-translating one sentence I quoted, which does not actually change the deeper meaning, have any impact on "free will"?
And how does this affect the claimed omniscience as opposed to "free will"?One thing you are still not trying to understand is this. Free will does not mean one is able to do anything without any consequences. For every action there is a consequence. If I tell you please do not take sugar more since it will cause you to become a diabetic patient, you may or may not obey my words based on "awareness" about the consequences and your own will power and choice, which is NOT based on lack of free will. Quran does try to create a change in a human being influencing his psychology and showing the right path. Man may choose the right path, or the wrong one ? he is completely free to make a choice (?Do whatever you will? 4140). That is why Allah will eventually hold Man responsible for his actions.
?If Allah had willed so, all men on Earth would have become convinced (of the message but He did not will it so and gave Man the freedom of choice). Then, are you (the Messenger) going to push people to conviction (against their will)?? (1099).
Had We so willed, We could have sent down unto them a message from the skies, so that their necks would bow down before it in humility.(264)
-
Our perception of time is what is limited, and this limits our understanding of "free will." God doesn't force our choices. He sees our paths and the choices we've made, because He isn't confined to linear time.
Maybe...and this is speculation only...we're like particles in Feynman's "Sum of All Paths" theory, where we take all possible paths to our destination, and we have some extraordinary integral that gives a final picture of what we've done overall. As we are going along our paths, maybe we can't clearly see what we've done or are doing (i.e., not all our paths are observable); however, we can freely choose to behave in a moral and ethical way at any given moment in time.
The next is completely subjective...
I don't know about others here, but I find that as I deepen my beliefs and understandings on certain levels, this brings about the sense of understanding what I can't quite formulate clearly in my mind. Sometimes I feel as if I'm being guided toward knowing something better, and sometimes I just leave things alone. With free will, there's a sort of knowing without really knowing-knowing.
And I do believe we deceive ourselves too easily into thinking we have control or can take control over any situation. We control only our responses--how we feel, how we think, what we say, what we do to react, and so on. Our efforts count, as does our willingness to surrender and understand we are not self-sufficient; we are dependent on God. "Bad" and "good" are our earthly (and limited) perceptions of events, as we move through a life of trials and refinement of our souls.
This is easy to say but difficult to put into practice, especially when I want to have things go my way and only my way. laugh
I have a question for you, StopS...do you believe in God? And I don't mean "a god who does this or that," but do you believe in Almighty God, Creator of all that is? If you've answered this elsewhere, I apologize for the repetition.
-
Hello StopS
little remark about Pork.
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
Peace
I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
-
I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
Salaam StopS
i know that it is difficult to admit even to muslims.
if Mister Israel hadn't forbade "things" for himself, perhaps Muslims would have been allowed to eat pork.
This remark, for a believer, can lead to a reflexion about "religious interdictions".
Funny, no ?More funny. Perhaps pork is a kind of "tag" put on real bani isreal people. Only Gospel has not the pork tag certification.
Peace
-
I must admit I have no idea what this means.
Who are "children of Israel"? Is Israel in this context a nation, a religion, an ideology, an ethnicity?
What does "forbade for himself" mean? Himself = who? or what?
Does this mean people could eat anything until the Torah was put into place as law?
Why is reciting the Jewish Bible a test for truthfulness?The context is not helping either. All I know is that the Torah has some vague instructions what people are allowed to eat, which does not make much sense in the 21st century. The only one I find in the Koran is the prohibition of eating pork. So what if everybody now ignores this and everyone eats pork?
The exposition of the verse 393 is as per the following according to Parwez;
(392-93) We return now to the Bani-Isr?ael who object as to why the Quran has made permissible certain articles of food which were prohibited in their Shari?at. Tell them that the Quran has made permissible that which was so before the Torah was revealed. There were certain things which Jacob denied to himself. The Jews included these as prohibitions in their dietary Laws although this was not Divinely-Ordained. Ask them to bring the Torah and read out if they speak the truth, and if they fail to do this and still continue fabricating a lie and attribute it to Allah, they shall stand among the evil-doers in the Divine Court.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
-
The exposition of the verse 393 is as per the following according to Parwez;
(392-93) We return now to the Bani-Isr?ael who object as to why the Quran has made permissible certain articles of food which were prohibited in their Shari?at. Tell them that the Quran has made permissible that which was so before the Torah was revealed. There were certain things which Jacob denied to himself. The Jews included these as prohibitions in their dietary Laws although this was not Divinely-Ordained. Ask them to bring the Torah and read out if they speak the truth, and if they fail to do this and still continue fabricating a lie and attribute it to Allah, they shall stand among the evil-doers in the Divine Court.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
It seems I am going senile.
What on Earth is "exposition of the verse 393"?
What is an "article of food"?
What food was permissible when "their Shari'at" prohibited it?
How does any of this relate to "free will"? -
My comments in blue.
It seems I am going senile.
What on Earth is "exposition of the verse 393"? It explains the meaning of the verse
What is an "article of food"? You may understand it as certain types of food
What food was permissible when "their Shari'at" prohibited it? All foods as per Quran were permissible. They made certain foods prohibited by themselves not ordained to be prohibited by Allah.
How does any of this relate to "free will"? If you have any point to connect this with "free will", please let me now. I had made my point clear regarding free will in the last page and I did not get any further response from you. -
My comments in blue.
Let me start with the last point
I had made my point clear regarding free will in the last page and I did not get any further response from you.You were repeating something I had already shown to be irrelevant or a misunderstanding. There was nothing I could reply other than repeat what I had already said.
The rest of this is then a paragraph someone had written about what Jews thought about eating certain food and what the Koran specified and that there was some argument about this.
The entire issue started with a small side-remark, which was just for information and not part of the grander view, so I think we can drop it.
Maybe you will understand my question better if you read what others have said here http//www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/7818 and many others, such as here http//www.godwouldbeanatheist.com/2problem/208omni.htm
-
The rest of this is then a paragraph someone had written about what Jews thought about eating certain food and what the Koran specified and that there was some argument about this.
Hello StopS
Oups! I think that the bad guy is me.
My free will misguided me.The problem with free will is that we don't know even what it is.
I searched quran and i found quite nothing about that strange notion.I found there people following false divinities, people following false arbabs (false educators as priest, scientists, philosophers), people following own desires. people following chayatins, jinns...
I don't know even what is the quranic word for that. The only thing i found in quran is that people are free to follow other thing than truthWho knows ? Perhaps Free-willed are simply who freed from human groups inventions, cultural gatherings, identity agglutination, strange concepts and strange books they have read.
Free will seems to be a concept of human imagination, jailed in a human body full of constraints and whose choices are quite always restricted by precedent choices and choices of people around him.
Free will seems to be a dream for jailed Will.But even free will dreamers ask for limitation of free will of others wills for the protection of their own will.
To be total free willer, free willer have to be alone. A kind of God, we can say.Sorry if i made another out of topic.
Peace
-
The future is already written and man has no free-will to change his future is completely against the true teaching of the Quran. If it is pre-written/ pre-destined it would mean there is no free will for man. Such a contention was the argument of disbelievers and atheists during the time of prophet. Here is what Quran says;
?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320).
Sura Yaseen says ?And when they are asked to use their wealth to feed the hungry, the dissenters (Kaafirs) say to the believers that Allah would have provided food to the hungry if He so willed. Their hunger is Allah?s will. How can we go against His will and provide food to them?? (3647). The Quran says that they are clearly misled.
-
Hello StopS
Oups! I think that the bad guy is me.
My free will misguided me. yesThe problem with free will is that we don't know even what it is.
I searched quran and i found quite nothing about that strange notion.I found there people following false divinities, people following false arbabs (false educators as priest, scientists, philosophers), people following own desires. people following chayatins, jinns...
I don't know even what is the quranic word for that. The only thing i found in quran is that people are free to follow other thing than truthWho knows ? Perhaps Free-willed are simply who freed from human groups inventions, cultural gatherings, identity agglutination, strange concepts and strange books they have read.
Free will seems to be a concept of human imagination, jailed in a human body full of constraints and whose choices are quite always restricted by precedent choices and choices of people around him.
Free will seems to be a dream for jailed Will.But even free will dreamers ask for limitation of free will of others wills for the protection of their own will.
To be total free willer, free willer have to be alone. A kind of God, we can say.Sorry if i made another out of topic.
Peace
Wow! This is a wonderful bit of insight! Nice line of thought and I love the conclusion - even if a god has attributes which limit that freedom as well. Thank you!
-
The future is already written and man has no free-will to change his future is completely against the true teaching of the Quran.
OK! THIS is a clear statement. What do you base it on?
If it is pre-written/ pre-destined it would mean there is no free will for man. Such a contention was the argument of disbelievers and atheists during the time of prophet. Here is what Quran says;
?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320).
Isn't this more about omnipotence? "if Allah so willed" is about having created people believing something in a particular way.
I am a sceptic. Can I choose not to be a sceptic?
I am a realist. Can I choose not to be a realist?Sura Yaseen says ?And when they are asked to use their wealth to feed the hungry, the dissenters (Kaafirs) say to the believers that Allah would have provided food to the hungry if He so willed. Their hunger is Allah?s will. How can we go against His will and provide food to them?? (3647). The Quran says that they are clearly misled.
Is this the will of the people to go hungry? I think this is also about the claim of the god in the Christian Bible saying that the hungry will be fed and the doubt thereof, not actually the will.