Is "free will" limited by omniscience?
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Our perception of time is what is limited, and this limits our understanding of "free will." God doesn't force our choices. He sees our paths and the choices we've made, because He isn't confined to linear time.
This is a good summary of how I look at the relationship between human free will and God's omniscience. We haven't been given total free will in the way that God is completely free, but we have been given the freedom to choose how we behave within the constraints of the laws God has applied to His Creation. As God is the Creator of the universe and the laws that govern it, His choice to give humans limited free will to act in the universe doesn't conflict with His omniscience since He is not bound by the laws applied to humans.
I don't know if anyone here plays the videogame The Sims, but the mechanics of the game are very similar to how I believe human free will works. In the game, you create a world and then create Sims to populate the world you made. If you turn on "free will", the Sims will "choose" their own behaviors according to the limits of the world you've created and the limits of the game, itself. While the Sims are free to decide how they interact in your world, the fact remains that it's still your world and you haven't relinquished any control of it, but just allowed the Sims to assert their will within it.
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Isn't this more about omnipotence? "if Allah so willed" is about having created people believing something in a particular way.
I am a sceptic. Can I choose not to be a sceptic?
I am a realist. Can I choose not to be a realist?If you choose to become a sceptic, realist or whatever it is, it is NOT based on, NOT as a result of the knowledge God has. Of course you can chose to be a different person if you want to be so. Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take. Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man?s future actions). Why you are unable to understand this simple point. In the quote I made from Quran it is said ?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320). Allah terms it as complete nonsense and ridiculous to say that one becomes a polytheist because Allah wanted it to be so. It is not based on Allah's knowledge you became an atheist (sorry if I am mistaken you are an atheist now). Do you think one becomes an an atheist because GOD wanted he/she to become so/ due to Allah's knowledge that he/she will become atheist? Even an atheist can not say whether he/she will become a believer in future. How many strong atheists later became believers.
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This is a good summary of how I look at the relationship between human free will and God's omniscience. We haven't been given total free will in the way that God is completely free,
How is a god free in any way? What about most merciful? Is this not a restriction?
I don't know if anyone here plays the videogame The Sims, but the mechanics of the game are very similar to how I believe human free will works.
The Sims is the perfect example of how free will does NOT work. But I agree it is tempting.
Do you, the player, know what the Sim you control will do the next moment? No, you don't know if they are tired, hungry and dirty, whether they will first eat, sleep or take a shower. You CAN find out because there are priority setting in the code within the game, because they are controlled by code without free will. It is apparent "free will", just as what humans are made to believe they have.That's why I am curious what people here believe is the case with "free will" when pointing out that the decision is already known beforehand. Or is it?
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If you choose to become a sceptic, realist or whatever it is, it is NOT based on, NOT as a result of the knowledge God has.
How does one choose to "become a sceptic, realist or whatever"?
Of course you can chose to be a different person if you want to be so.
Could you verify that? Can you provide an example? If I hate stupid advertising slogans I can choose to be stupid, gullible and impressionable and love advertising? No, hardly.
I can choose to like going to the dentist?
I can choose to like breaking my legs?Man is capable of exercising his free will to change his decisions. Allah knows what decisions Man is going to take.
So how exactly is it "free will" if the decision is known? What about a known outcome is my choice if it is already known what choice I will make?
Therefore, Man does not know his own future actions whereas Allah does (know man?s future actions). Why you are unable to understand this simple point.
Well, you don't understand my point, so it does not seem to be THAT simple.
In the quote I made from Quran it is said ?The polytheists will say that if Allah so willed, we wouldn?t have been polytheists nor our ancestors nor we would have adopted certain prohibitions....? (6149). The Quran pronounces them as rejecters of truth. (1635, 4320). Allah terms it as complete nonsense and ridiculous to say that one becomes a polytheist because Allah wanted it to be so. It is not based on Allah's knowledge you became an atheist (sorry if I am mistaken you are an atheist now). Do you think one becomes an an atheist because GOD wanted he/she to become so/ due to Allah's knowledge that he/she will become atheist? Even an atheist can not say whether he/she will become a believer in future. How many strong atheists later became believers.
This is not about the Koran. This is about the brain understanding something.
This is not about numbers and how many atheists became theists and how many theists became atheists. This is about logics.
If I am walking behind you and know you will turn left at the crossing, can you change your mind and turn right? -
How does one choose to "become a sceptic, realist or whatever"?
Certainly not based on God's knowledge.
Could you verify that? Can you provide an example? If I hate stupid advertising slogans I can choose to be stupid, gullible and impressionable and love advertising? No, hardly.
I can choose to like going to the dentist?
I can choose to like breaking my legs?For instance, if you decide to have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, on your own accord, you are free and you can reap the benefits of walking, however, if you are made to, against your will, you are forced. Whatever actions you do it is your choice. You can act stupid blindly believing in advertising slogans or act rationally verifying facts. If you are sick, you can choose medicine for yourself (if you are a doctor), or visit a doctor of your choice, or not to visit any doctor at all and take the risk. The ultimate decision is yours not God's. God's knowledge of your ultimate decision which will not in any way affect your choice.
So how exactly is it "free will" if the decision is known? What about a known outcome is my choice if it is already known what choice I will make?
Imagine I am a teacher who teach science subject for 50 students. I may know which students are likely to pass in the examination based on my experience, knowledge about how brilliant and studious are the children, and how difficult and tough is the question paper, etc. Does my knowledge in any way influence their actuall passing/ failing in the examination? Also imagine I know one student who is the worst performer in the class is going to fail. And if this student fails, is it because of my knowledge this student failed???????? No idiot will say that.
If I am walking behind you and know you will turn left at the crossing, can you change your mind and turn right?
God knows what will be the actual decision one will be taking...myself turning right or left is NOT based/ resultant on God's knowledge of the "actual decision" I will be taking.......just like no man with sense will say it is because of a teacher's knowledge that someone passed or failed. The only difference in the knowledge is that in a teacher's case there is possibility of having "human error", but God's case the knowledge will be perfect without any question of going wrong.
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Peace.
The concept of "free will" involves the ability to make decisions without any controlling influence(s). If God is omniscient, then free will can't exist - since, based on the Qur'aan, Allah knows what decisions we'll make before we make them. In fact, aspects of the Qur'aan even state that Allah makes specific decisions for us, e.g. choosing to guide some and not others, etc. That's the problem with predetermination...
If God knows what will happen in the future, then the future is already predetermined (or 'prewritten' and concrete. Therefore, even if we don't know the future, it is already established beforehand, and there's ultimately nothing we can do to change it. So, if Allah says (or knows) that you will steal a car, there's no way that you can NOT steal the car; the action is predestined and inevitable, and you can't make the "choice" not to commit the crime. We may have the illusion that free will is a reality; but as long as God is described as being omniscient (all-knowing), able to discern future events, then free will is an impossibility, since the implication is that the future is 'written in stone'.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salaam
God knows Future. That means that he can see it and that he is not submitted to what we call time dimension (i think).
The history we are living can thus be considered as a result of all "human free wills" and God already knows how it will end for us.
So, if God is over what we call time, there is no contradiction between free will and "knowing" future.Peace
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How is a god free in any way? What about most merciful? Is this not a restriction?
The Sims is the perfect example of how free will does NOT work. But I agree it is tempting.
Do you, the player, know what the Sim you control will do the next moment? No, you don't know if they are tired, hungry and dirty, whether they will first eat, sleep or take a shower. You CAN find out because there are priority setting in the code within the game, because they are controlled by code without free will. It is apparent "free will", just as what humans are made to believe they have.That's why I am curious what people here believe is the case with "free will" when pointing out that the decision is already known beforehand. Or is it?
To answer your first question; In my opinion, Most Merciful, like all of God's attributes, is a self-imposed restriction which does not negate Absolute Free Will. Just as when a human chooses to do one thing over another it doesn't negate their free will.
As for the second part, I don't believe in predetermination in the traditional sense, which is why I qouted Sytall's thoughts on how existing in time limits our understanding of infinite. For God, there is no "beforehand" or "future", because time itself is created. So, how can a Creator be bound by an aspect of His own creation?
Within my analogy for The Sims I may not know exactly what the Sim is going to do at any given moment, (since I'm not omniscient and exist within time) but I do know what every possible action is. If I don't like some actions, I can fiddle with the code and make those actions impossible within my world, I can pause the game and cancel it, or I can just let it happen and decide how to react to it.
Within my understanding of God The universe was created with laws (or code) that limit our free will but don't negate it entirely. This is why we're only held responsible for things that are within in our control. He is constantly and immediately aware of every possible action that has ever been taken or ever will be taken, so control is maintained at all times, as any of the negative actions that humans can take can be counteracted easily by a Being who exists outside the confines of time.
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So, if Allah says (or knows) that you will steal a car, there's no way that you can NOT steal the car; the action is predestined and inevitable, and you can't make the "choice" not to commit the crime.
Salam,
Take care. You are putting the ultimate responsibility of all crimes on God. This is wrong. You are completely contradicting Quran. The attitude of ?I would not have sinned if You (Allah) had not wished so? is the line always taken by infidels and polytheists. They attribute their way of life to Allah?s will -- ?we are what we are because Allah wills so?. As it is said in Sura An?aam ?When you question their (erroneous) way of life, the polytheists will say - ?It is Allah?s will that we are, and our ancestors were, polytheists? (6149). Allah rebuts that statement with ?Whatever you say (and follow) is nothing but pure conjecture (and ignorance)?. In Sura Zakhraf, it says that when you (the Prophet) question them, they say ?We would never have prayed to these idols if God did not will it?. Allah said, ?this is just ignorance. They are nothing but conjectures.? (4320). Sura Yaseen reports that when the rich are asked to let their wealth flown down to the poor, the infidels reply ?How can we enrich those who are poor by Allah?s will??. The Quran?s response to that is ?surely, you are in grave ignorance!? (3647).
In fact, aspects of the Qur'aan even state that Allah makes specific decisions for us, e.g. choosing to guide some and not others, etc.
Again your assumption Allah whimsically guides some and misguides some has no basis. Kindly read the following chapter;
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_11.htm
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Salaam
God knows Future. That means that he can see it and that he is not submitted to what we call time dimension (i think).
The history we are living can thus be considered as a result of all "human free wills" and God already knows how it will end for us.
So, if God is over what we call time, there is no contradiction between free will and "knowing" future.Peace
very nice comment dear noshirk!
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Salaam
God knows Future. That means that he can see it and that he is not submitted to what we call time dimension (i think).
The history we are living can thus be considered as a result of all "human free wills" and God already knows how it will end for us.
So, if God is over what we call time, there is no contradiction between free will and "knowing" future.Peace
Exactly!
Also, it gets silly when we think of God as some character who perceives time, present, future just like us human beings do. This just shows we have no idea what God is... and therefore we make an image of God resembling a human but with superpowers... and since the whole ideas is stupid, we reject the idea of a God, and the following discussions carry this inherent silliness. So, the problem is not God, but the problem is our silly images of God. The problem is also how we understand the concepts we discuss, such as infinity, omniscience, predestination, free will. What do we really know about these things? What does "know the future" mean when talking about God (note I'm not talking about human beings knowing stuff)? What do we understand when we talk about God "doing" something? What do we imagine? A spirit-guy sending mental, telepathic orders to the world of energy and matter? How well do we grasp such things actually? What do we imagine? Do we handle such concepts in everyday life just like we handle pencils, dead lines, promises and cucumbers, with the result of being very familiar with them? We throw so many things into a discussion that are just vague concepts. No matter what the dictionary says, we will still have our own individual perceptions of them all. The discussions will be accordingly.... like parallel monologues as far as conceptual understanding is concerned...
I've always wondered one thing... Are there atheists who sincerely accept the possibility that they (the atheists) are currently unable to perceive that which is God (existing and real) but that God actually exists. I mean, something can be real even though one doesn't believe in it's reality and one haven't had any evidence or experience of it's reality. It's not a difficult thing to think... it's not a far stretch at all, and it doesn't require faith. It's just plain logic. I wonder if any atheists can accept this possibility in all sincerity and honesty. With sincerity I mean that they would actually believe in this possibility. Now, this is not the same as believing in pink elephants with four ears living in ice tunnels in Antarctica. One could argue the same possibility of that. But that is purely made up for the sake of the argument. The notion of a Living Source behind that which is referred to as Creation, is not that far fetched. It's not far fetched to consider a source of everything. The idea of God is not made up just for the sake of the argument. But again, what we think of God as will differ from person to person...
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You are putting the ultimate responsibility of all crimes on God. This is wrong.
All things owe their existence to God, including each sin that has ever been commited. If this is what you mean by "responsibility" then yes he is "responsible". If you mean the moral responsiblity of each sin, then that lies with those who commited them. They are responsible because 1) They desired to commit their sins, and are not compelled against their own wills. It is simply that they cannot will anything, but that which they do. 2) They are creatures subject to the natural dominion of their Creator. 3) Necessity does not absolve before the law. In other words, the fact that God had created all the sons of Adam with an inclination to do only that which is evil, does not make them any less culpable before his judgment seat.
You are completely contradicting Quran.
The citations you provide do not say what you're saying. None of those texts you cite below are of any help to you.
The attitude of ?I would not have sinned if You (Allah) had not wished so? is the line always taken by infidels and polytheists. They attribute their way of life to Allah?s will -- ?we are what we are because Allah wills so?.
- These are not quotes from the scriptures. No where in the Quran will you find people saying "we would not have sinned...had it not been God's will".
- They do not simply "attribute their way of life" they attribute the correctness of their way of life, to God's will. As we shall see below, in the text you have cited.
As it is said in Sura An?aam ?When you question their (erroneous) way of life, the polytheists will say - ?It is Allah?s will that we are, and our ancestors were, polytheists? (6149). Allah rebuts that statement with ?Whatever you say (and follow) is nothing but pure conjecture (and ignorance)?.
Again you are not citing the text! You have not even paraphrased the verse in question accurately. The text says "They will say, those who ascribe equals (to God), that not we, nor our fathers, would have ascribed equals (with God) if God had not willed, nor would we have prohibited anything. Thus lied those who came before them, until they tasted our punishment. Say Is there any knowledge with you, which you could bring forth for us? You do not follow anything, except conjecture, and you do not follow anything, but guesswork." Then the next verse says " Say With God is the most sufficient argument. If he willed he would have guided you all."
- Are you claiming that these polytheists did not believe in their own religion? For this is the implication of your interpretation.
- Where does it say that it is "complete guesswork" to ascribe to God's decree, all those things which happen in this world?
- Is it not true that what "conjecture and guesswork" refer to, in this verse, are their religious practices?
- If it's true that God did not decree the sins of these pagans then what sense does it make to say "if God willed he would have guided you all"?
In Sura Zakhraf, it says that when you (the Prophet) question them, they say ?We would never have prayed to these idols if God did not will it?. Allah said, ?this is just ignorance. They are nothing but conjectures.? (4320).
More poorly paraphrased texts, but similar questions apply.
- So these pagans thought their religion was actually false? They believed that worshipping angels was false; why would they even bother defending their religious practices if they believed them to be false anyway?
- "If the most Gracious had willed we would not worship them.." Does it sound like they were trying to absolve themselves of moral responsibility (as you claim)? Or that they thought that their religious practices, handed down from their fathers, were pleasing to God, and thus in conformity with his will?
- 4321 "Or have we given them a book before this, to which they are holding fast?" This verse and v.22 make your interpretation impossible. For, what is the point of asking them by what authority they practice their religion, if these pagans are only appealing to God's eternal decree? In other words, if they got their practices from revelation or from their own made up traditions, it's all completely irrelevant to the argument which you claim they're making.
Sura Yaseen reports that when the rich are asked to let their wealth flown down to the poor, the infidels reply ?How can we enrich those who are poor by Allah?s will??. The Quran?s response to that is ?surely, you are in grave ignorance!? (3647).
Wow this is absolutely not what the text says. 3647 "And when it is said to them, spend out of what God has provided for you as sustenance. Those who reject say to those who believe Do you feed those who, if God willed, He could feed. Your are on nothing, but clear error." Nevertheless, I am happy you cited this text, for it completely demolishes your position.
- In order to be consistent, please tell us whether God is capable or incapable of feeding those who are in need? If he is capable, and they are hungry, it is because he has willed it; that is to say, he has decreed it as such. If he is not capable, then he is not the God of scripture. This absolutely proves your interpretation to be false, since you claim that 3647 is to be understood as referring to God's decree and not his pleasure.
All of the texts you've cited are extremely simple to understand, and none of them are even remotely teaching the doctrine of free will. Those appealing to God's will, in these texts, are appealing to his pleasure. That is, he has willed it therefore it is pleasing to him. They do not even consider that God has decreed evil for the purpose of glorifying his justice. The idea that these texts are somehow promoting "free will" cannot withstand any serious scrutiny or exegesis.
Again your assumption Allah whimsically guides some and misguides some has no basis. Kindly read the following chapter;
The basis of his guiding and misguiding is his decree of election or reprobation.
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- In order to be consistent, please tell us whether God is capable or incapable of feeding those who are in need? If he is capable, and they are hungry, it is because he has willed it; that is to say, he has decreed it as such. If he is not capable, then he is not the God of scripture. This absolutely proves your interpretation to be false, since you claim that 3647 is to be understood as referring to God's decree and not his pleasure.
I believe that people are hungry because it serves a purpose, to them... a purpose that is good, in the big picture, but that this purpose may be impossible to see if you don't believe in a God. Anything that happens, serves the purpose of being a potential source of strengthening our connection/relationship to Source/God/Allah... i.e. to open our eye to truth and reality. I actually think it is impossible to see the real purpose of anything that happens to someone else. We are not them, so how can we know. People can hardly understand that which happens to themselves.
It's tragicomic to see people that don't really believe in a God in the first place, hit by adversity (or see adversity elsewhere), and then using that adversity, claiming the event is in essence unfair and bad, to prove that there cannot possibly be a God (since God is supposed to be merciful, all-powerful, all-knowing etc). What a limited perception of everything. People try to prove or disprove God with a frame of reference that is just totally subjective and useless for the intended purpose.
That's why they cannot prove God, 'coz they're looking for the wrong thing, in the wrong place, using the wrong method. How could they possible even come near the truth?
Peace and cheers
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Peace, aabdul.
You are putting the ultimate responsibility of all crimes on God. This is wrong. You are completely contradicting Quran. The attitude of ?I would not have sinned if You (Allah) had not wished so? is the line always taken by infidels and polytheists. They attribute their way of life to Allah?s will -- ?we are what we are because Allah wills so?. As it is said in Sura An?aam ?When you question their (erroneous) way of life, the polytheists will say - ?It is Allah?s will that we are, and our ancestors were, polytheists? (6149). Allah rebuts that statement with ?Whatever you say (and follow) is nothing but pure conjecture (and ignorance)?. In Sura Zakhraf, it says that when you (the Prophet) question them, they say ?We would never have prayed to these idols if God did not will it?. Allah said, ?this is just ignorance. They are nothing but conjectures.? (4320). Sura Yaseen reports that when the rich are asked to let their wealth flown down to the poor, the infidels reply ?How can we enrich those who are poor by Allah?s will??. The Quran?s response to that is ?surely, you are in grave ignorance!? (3647).
I see this, like many other things mentioned in the Qur'aan, as being open to interpretation. And, in any case, you're missing the point. According to the general Islamic view of Allah, he is all-knowing (omniscient), aware of all past and future events. The key position, of course, is knowledge of the future. If God knows all future events, then the future must be predetermined, 'written in stone'. Correct? That's where the problem with "free will" comes into play. If "free will" is the proposing and execution of a choice without any controlling or determining influence(s), then we can't really say that we have free will - because the future has already been determined for us!
From a practical perspective, we can look at things from the view of a righteous man versus a wicked man. If a righteous person gives money to poor people, then the act of him giving this money to those who need(ed) it was known by Allah before the action was actually taken. Since the future is already prewritten, then there's no way that this person could have NOT given the money to the poor - since, as mentioned, it was already predetermined. Similarly, if a wicked person steals money from others, Allah already knew that (1) this man would be wicked and (2) this man would become a thief and steal from others. Due to the future being prewritten, there's no way that this wicked man could've avoided stealing - again, because it was already predetermined for him to do so.
I'm not 'blaming God' for the actions of wicked people, nor am I crediting him with the actions of righteous people. However, we also need to look at things rationally... If Allah predetermines (or "knows" that righteous people will perform righteous works, is there any way for them to avoid performing these actions? And if Allah predetermines that wicked people will conduct wickedness, is there any way for them to be righteous? In other words, can they bypass God's decree (or knowledge) and do the opposite of what's been written concerning them?
Again your assumption Allah whimsically guides some and misguides some has no basis. Kindly read the following chapter;
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/kt/kt_11.htm
The article you posted has some serious philosophical problems associated with it. For example, the Qur'aan says that Allah 'seals the hearts' of some people - it doesn't say anything about these people sealing their own hearts! The same concept is relayed in the Bible, where it states that God 'heardened the heart' of the Egyptian pharaoh, causing him to reject Moses' message. Again, it doesn't say that these people choose rejection; it is forced upon them by God! We can attempt to devise any interpretation we choose concerning this matter, but the words are very clear and direct - God guides certain people and misguides (or, chooses not to guide) others.
In the Qur'aanic story of Adam's creation, Ibliys accuses Allah of misguiding him (Q. 1532-44). Did Allah deny the charges? No, believe it or not, he didn't! In fact, certain aspects of the Qur'aan agree with Ibliys' position concerning misguiding people, again, depending on how one interprets the message. It all depends on perspective.
Peace,
Ahmad
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According to the general Islamic view of Allah, he is all-knowing (omniscient), aware of all past and future events. The key position, of course, is knowledge of the future. If God knows all future events, then the future must be predetermined, 'written in stone'. Correct? That's where the problem with "free will" comes into play.
No.
Check noshirk's most recent post in this thread.
Your understanding is sensible and logic, but it sort of makes Allah dependent on the time dimension.
Let's look at it the way noshirk put itOur world evolves as on a time line, i.e. time is linear to us and the events in our world. The past is the past, the now is the only thing that really exists, and the future hasn't yet happened. BUT, since time is just an aspect of Creation, then Allah is not bound, limited or dependent on time, because Allah is not a thing or person. Allah is something greater, independent of Creation, that we cannot fully grasp. So Allah is independent from the dimension of time and knows that which has not yet happened, because it is not a matter of past, present and future to Allah. It only appears like this to us... time. Allah is not "sitting" somewhere waiting for everything to play out. The main point is that Allah is not of this world. You can also see it like going back in a time machine as a detached observer. Things are happening for the first time, but you know it in advance because you've broken free from time. Perhaps not a great example. In any case, Allah is not illogical just because our logic cannot handle it.
Anyhow, I don't claim to know it all, but I do understand noshirk's way of seeing it. And by the way, what does it matter to us anyway what we conclude about free will and Allah's all-knowing? Will it change how we act or look at things???
Peace! O0
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Certainly not based on God's knowledge.
You have told me what it is not. Of course I don't have the knowledge of a god. Nobody has.
But what is it? How can I choose to "become a sceptic, realist or whatever"?For instance, if you decide to have a daily 3- mile early morning walk, on your own accord, you are free and you can reap the benefits of walking, however, if you are made to, against your will, you are forced. Whatever actions you do it is your choice. You can act stupid blindly believing in advertising slogans or act rationally verifying facts. If you are sick, you can choose medicine for yourself (if you are a doctor), or visit a doctor of your choice, or not to visit any doctor at all and take the risk. The ultimate decision is yours not God's. God's knowledge of your ultimate decision which will not in any way affect your choice.
That is not the point. Your example is simple and straightforward. Mine is not. If I will be punished if I do NOT go for a walk, is this "free will"?
Can I choose to like going to the dentist?
Can I choose to like breaking my legs?Imagine I am a teacher who teach science subject for 50 students. I may know which students are likely to pass in the examination based on my experience, knowledge about how brilliant and studious are the children, and how difficult and tough is the question paper, etc. Does my knowledge in any way influence their actuall passing/ failing in the examination? Also imagine I know one student who is the worst performer in the class is going to fail. And if this student fails, is it because of my knowledge this student failed???????? No idiot will say that.
That is completely and totally different. Your estimate is not the same as omniscience. Will you cut off a finger for every time you are wrong? I don't think so.
God knows what will be the actual decision one will be taking...myself turning right or left is NOT based/ resultant on God's knowledge of the "actual decision" I will be taking.......just like no man with sense will say it is because of a teacher's knowledge that someone passed or failed. The only difference in the knowledge is that in a teacher's case there is possibility of having "human error", but God's case the knowledge will be perfect without any question of going wrong.
Exactly! So you don't have "free will".
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In order to be consistent, please tell us whether God is capable or incapable of feeding those who are in need? If he is capable, and they are hungry, it is because he has willed it; that is to say, he has decreed it as such. If he is not capable, then he is not the God of scripture. This absolutely proves your interpretation to be false, since you claim that 3647 is to be understood as referring to God's decree and not his pleasure.
Insha Allah I will answer your comments point by points in different posts since it requires some explanation.
You are saying if Allah is Capable to feed the hungry and even then if people are hungry it would mean Allah willed people to go hungry. THIS IS COMPLETELY A WRONG CONCEPT AND IT HAS NO BASIS AND IT IS A FABRICATION. The point needed to be explained bit detail but I will try to reduce my comments as much as possible.
This provision of sustenance by Allah is not done directly by Him. No where Quran says Allah directly feed the poor. Allah is CAPABLE for directly feeding the poor but He would not directly interfere in the affairs of the world and feed the needy. Allah has created the means of wealth -- ?We put you in place on the Earth and for you made in it means of sustenance ? (710; 1520). Earth has been given the potential of producing food. He sends down rain which helps to produce food -- ?Allah is the one who created the skies and the Earth, and sends down from the sky rain and so brings out from it a variety of sustenance for you -- ? (1432); ?He provides sustenance for you from the sky and the Earth? (353); ?The Earth has an infinite potential of yielding food, but at a given time, only a finite amount may be obtained -- ?And We have stores of everything but We don?t send those down (bring out of the Earth) except according to known measure -- ? (1521). The term ?known measure? ( م clearly refers to established ways and means (natural laws) open to Man?s discovery and application.
The Quran declares desire and work as fundamental to obtaining rizq. It is termed as " ? the search for divinely-gifted sustenance. The Quran cites the movement of Earth to create day and night as one of His signs; they have been made bright ? so that you can search your Preserver?s bounty (rizq) ?. (1712) Incidentally, the expression - - refers to search as well as intention (plan), effort and achievement. With regards to search for sustenance, a special mention is made of boats which were the best means of transportation at the time. Sea-vessels are quite important even today. ?You see the boats sailing briskly in sea so that you can search His bounty --- ? (16.14); This search for sustenance is necessary for the believers and the dissenters alike. Hence, one of the characteristics of the Messenger and his group is that ?They search Allah?s bounty (and His approval) ? --- (4829; 7320). It even becomes obligatory for the believers ?When you have finished as-Sala, spread in the earth and search Allah?s bounty -- ? (6210). As a result of this effort, sustenance will come according to natural laws, which make no distinction between Muslim and non-Muslim. Whoever farms under the right agricultural laws shall reap a good harvest. It is clear, therefore, that rizq gets available to anyone who works according to natural laws.
Hunger is Allah?s Punishment
?Allah explains it with the example of a township. It was in peace and contentment. ?Rizq? came to them in plenty from all four directions. They denied and rejected these bounties of Allah. So, Allah had them taste the calamities of hunger and fear. It was all due to their own deeds! (16112).
Then the Quran goes on to say that when men face shortage of sustenance, they blame Allah for afflicting them without cause. It is said, ?Tell them that Allah doesn?t degrade anyone without due reason. You have been disgraced by our own wrongdoing -- you used to abandon the helpless of your society; you did not arrange to feed the hungry and were greedy; such actions brought ignominy to you, not Allah!?(8916-20).
In short, Allah has provided Man with rizq. But, the fair distribution of it is to be done by Man not by Allah! If it is done according to the system suggested by Allah, no man will go without sustenance. On the other hand, if it is done according to man-made systems, human society will turn into a den of beasts!
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Allah has provided Man with rizq. But, the fair distribution of it is to be done by Man not by Allah! If it is done according to the system suggested by Allah, no man will go without sustenance. On the other hand, if it is done according to man-made systems, human society will turn into a den of beasts!
Are the hunger stricken people punished for something they have done, but the punishment comes in the form of something that is a result of what e.g. other nations are doing or not doing? How is it connected? Is there a specific and intended purpose for each individual in calamities, or are they just punishments for the sake of punishment?
Peace
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Second rebuttal-
Again you are not citing the text! You have not even paraphrased the verse in question accurately. The text says "They will say, those who ascribe equals (to God), that not we, nor our fathers, would have ascribed equals (with God) if God had not willed, nor would we have prohibited anything. Thus lied those who came before them, until they tasted our punishment. Say Is there any knowledge with you, which you could bring forth for us? You do not follow anything, except conjecture, and you do not follow anything, but guesswork." Then the next verse says " Say With God is the most sufficient argument. If he willed he would have guided you all."
- Are you claiming that these polytheists did not believe in their own religion? For this is the implication of your interpretation.
- Where does it say that it is "complete guesswork" to ascribe to God's decree, all those things which happen in this world?
- Is it not true that what "conjecture and guesswork" refer to, in this verse, are their religious practices?
- If it's true that God did not decree the sins of these pagans then what sense does it make to say "if God willed he would have guided you all"?
Firstly please check all Quran translations. Let me quote the translation by pickthall and Sher Ali here
(Pickthall) They who are idolaters will say Had Allah willed, we had not ascribed (unto Him) partners neither had our fathers, nor had we forbidden aught. Thus did those who were before them give the lie (to Allah's messengers) till they tasted of the fear of Us. Say Have ye any knowledge that ye can adduce for Us? Lo! ye follow naught but an opinion, Lo! ye do but guess.(614
(Sher Ali) Those who associate gods with God will say, 'If God had pleased, we would not have associated gods with Him, nor would our fathers, nor would we have made anything unlawful.' In the like manner did those who were before them accuse God's Messengers of falsehood, until they tasted Our wrath. Say, 'Have you any knowledge? Then produce it for us. You only follow mere conjecture. And you only tell lies..
The above verse clearly states the false justification of the idolaters that it is due to the reason of God's will that they associate gods with God which Quran strongly object as not true. The implication of my claim is not "polytheists did not believe in their own religion". Look for my next quote from Quran related to the same claim below (highlighted)
If it's true that God did not decree the sins of these pagans then what sense does it make to say "if God willed he would have guided you all"?
You are confused. Firstly look at another verse with similar wording.
And the idolaters say, 'If God had so willed, we should not have worshiped anything beside Him, neither we nor our fathers, nor should we have forbidden anything without command from Him.' So did those who opposed the truth before them. Are the Messengers responsible for anything except the plain delivery of the Message? (1635)
So it is clear that the messengers duty is to nothing but plain delivery of the message. It is the choice of the people whether to accept the message or not. If God willed he would have guided you all means Allah do not want to force anyone to believe in the message. Or Do you think it is Allah's Will that some people should not be guided to the truth???? If that is the case such people can not be held responsible for their actions. Allah says, ?O Messenger! You can?t make the ?dead? hear you. Allah makes listening only for those who want to? ? (3519-22), the next verse, "You are only a warner (3523). ?Whoever wishes to listen? means ?He guides to Him (only) the one who turns to Him? ? (1327). The Quran says in (9010) ? And We showed him two paths?. Also, (in 763) ?We have guided him to the right path. It is upto him now to accept or reject it.? It is further elaborated in 1829 ?Tell that Right (has arrived) from your God. It is upto you now to accept or reject it?. If there is no freedom of choice, no responsibility. That?s why the Quran says (in 1675-76) ?The subjugated and the free can never be equal. Subsequently, one will be answerable only for actions committed out of free will (16106). Also in 335 ?you won?t be held answerable for (an unintentional) mistake - only for one which you make with your heart?s intention?. The same principle lies under the normal judicial law which distinguishes between intentional (cold-blooded) and unintentional (warm-blooded or accidental) murder, proposing different punishments for them (492-93).
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Are the hunger stricken people punished for something they have done, but the punishment comes in the form of something that is a result of what e.g. other nations are doing or not doing? How is it connected? Is there a specific and intended purpose for each individual in calamities, or are they just punishments for the sake of punishment?
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PeaceI've always thought of situations like that one not as "punishments" for the oppressed, but as tests for the believers. For example, I live in the U.S., and I'm well aware that some of the practices of my government are directly responsible for the suffering of people in other countries. I don't see their suffering as a punishment for something they've done, but as a test for me and my fellow countrymen to see if we will put a stop to it.
In general, this is how I view all evil commited by humans on other humans. What they do isn't God's Will. His Will is for the believers to align their will with His and oppose those who commit evil. If God were to directly step in and stop people from commiting evil, that would negate free will, which could be seen as evil, itself. Instead, he encourages believers to use their free will to do His work on earth.