Wudu, Ablution
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Salam,
I am new to this site. I have read most of the articles in this site and I agree with them. I have a question on Wudu. I have many posts on the Wudu or Ablution in this site but haven't found an answer to my question. I hope someone answer it please.
I understand the 4 steps of wudu which is prescribed in Qur'an I have always been taught that washing your private part is part of the Wudu. Since Qur'an does not talk about washing your private part (unless ones have had a nocturnal emission or intercourse then bath is obligatory), if some one is using bathroom for defecation or urination and wipes oneself with tissue, can that person proceed with wudu or that person MUST wash private parts before he can perform wudu? Also if someone performs wudu and few minutes later pass gas, does that person have to wash private part or he can perform another wudu?
I hope i make sense. I am really confused about this and would appreciate any clarification.
Peace
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I understand the 4 steps of wudu which is prescribed in Qur'an
I hope i make sense. I am really confused about this and would appreciate any clarification.
Peace
Your best source would be the Talmud. No seriously. Every question that you can think of and are confused about, rabbinic laws have an answer to clarify.
"Wudhu" is not mentioned in the Koran.
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I am not asking about Tamlud (and yes i do not appreciate your sarcastic remark). But if you feel like following Tamlud then you are more than welcome.
My question is regarding verse 56. washing private part is obligatory?
56 O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, then
wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your
heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse,
then you shall purify. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have
excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women,
and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the
clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God
does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to
cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may
be thankful. -
You will not find the answers to your questions in the Koran. You will need to look elsewhere. No sarcasm intended. Seriously, if you or anyone else has such questions then the Talmud would be the better source. Next would be to pick a school of thought in "Islam" which address such questions as what voids and doesn't void wudu, etc.
I have no desire to follow any source other than the Koran. And to follow the Koran is to live a good "clean" life. Doing good deeds, being a good person, avoiding evil, doing the right thing - that's what God cares and wants from us.
How you clean your private part? Is irrelevant.
About Verse 56, it is poorly translated and misunderstood. And the word "wudu" is not in the Koran.
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Why don't you instead just troll somewhere else? The word Wudu is not mentioned in the Quran. But that does not mean that verse 56 is a Talmud verse.
If you think that 56 is not about ablution, then, please, instead of trolling, send forth your arguments & reasons. I bet you don't even know arabic ABC, and instead just call all Quranic parts you don't like as "mistranslated" and "misinterpreted".
How you clean your private part? Is irrelevant.
Cleanness as a principle is not to be neglected.
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Why don't you instead just troll somewhere else?
Why do you want me to "troll" somewhere else? Because I challenge commonly held views, beliefs, understandings, ways of thinking, tradition...?
The word Wudu is not mentioned in the Quran. But that does not mean that verse 56 is a Talmud verse.
Verse 56 is a verse from the koran, and not Talmudic verse. If anyone has questions like does wearing makeup void wudu or wiping with toilet tissue, or breastfeeding, flatus, etc.., then you need extra sources like hadiths/sharia but I find the Talmud to be much superior. Hence, my reference.
If you think that 56 is not about ablution, then, please, instead of trolling, send forth your arguments & reasons. I bet you don't even know arabic ABC, and instead just call all Quranic parts you don't like as "mistranslated" and "misinterpreted".
It is not about what I like and don't like. What I am interested in is knowing and understanding what the Koran says. It is the TRUTH that i like and am interested in.
You are right that I don't know Arabic but God did give me the Koran and the faculties to reason, to think, to contemplate, to seek knowledge. The koran although written in Arabic language is not just for the scholarly linguistic who has mastery in Arabic. Although i find it a handicap, it is not a paralysis in my search to understand the meaning of words, concepts, message of the Koran.
The Koran is the word of God but the translations and understandings are subject to error and not free of influence. I find quite a few of the verses as translated to defy logic, sense, incoherent in thought, contradictory....which is what has lead me to seriously question the translations.
It was a thread that someone started on this forum last year that really lead me to examine things. Am I understanding things from the Koran? Where do I get my understanding of worship from? The Koran? Up until last year, I held onto this belief and understanding that salat is ritual worship.
@wakas, I can tell you what salat doesn't mean and why which it has only taken 20+ years to see that but what does it mean - I don't know yet. Like I said, I have read your articles but still I have not reached that point of clarity. What seems so obvious to you is not quite obvious to me.
I can share my thoughts on why this verse 56 as translated is contradictory in of itself and just doesn't make sense but what do I think it really means other than physical washing, I hope that God will lead me to a better understanding.
Surely, there are others who have thought about it, have wondered about it, have researched it and who God has guided, as I possibly cannot be the only soul to question, to wonder and to think that this verse is not dealing with physical washing of body parts. Just as I felt 20 some years ago, that I possibly cannot be the only one to question the hadiths.
Cleanness as a principle is not to be neglected.
The issue is not on cleanliness of the body but what is the real meaning of this verse 56. could this "washing" be not a physical washing but cleansing of thought, purification from evil as the verse is pertaining to salat?
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The issue is not on cleanliness of the body but what is the real meaning of this verse 56. could this "washing" be not a physical washing but cleansing of thought, purification from evil as the verse is pertaining to salat?
I agree with this, started understanding it that way, too...
Thank you @justamuslim.
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Peace be with you, nadaf69.
Please do not get mislead by some of the people here who are telling you that wudu/ablution is not a physical washing, but a spiritual washing or whatever. And I feel sorry about the attitude from some people on this forum. Sadly the replies/discussions aren't always civil in this forum. Please just ignore them. They aren't worth wasting your time with a response.
And like what mohf said earlier, cleanliness should not be neglected.
Wiping private parts with tissue = May Allah accept it, or He may not accept it. Not sure as there exists some level of doubts.
Washing private parts with water = Allah will surely accept it and there is no doubt about it.
Therefore, you must always stay on the safer side, i.e. you must WASH your private parts after defecation or urination before doing wudu/ablution.
After wudu, if a person passes gas, then he/she doesn't need to wash the private parts, and can simply re-do the wudu.
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I can share my thoughts on why this verse 56 as translated is contradictory in of itself and just doesn't make sense but what do I think it really means other than physical washing, I hope that God will lead me to a better understanding.
Surely, there are others who have thought about it, have wondered about it, have researched it and who God has guided, as I possibly cannot be the only soul to question, to wonder and to think that this verse is not dealing with physical washing of body parts. Just as I felt 20 some years ago, that I possibly cannot be the only one to question the hadiths.
The issue is not on cleanliness of the body but what is the real meaning of this verse 56. could this "washing" be not a physical washing but cleansing of thought, purification from evil as the verse is pertaining to salat?
Questioning is fine, but you haven't actually stated why it is contradictory or doesn't make sense. Please be specific.
From my studies, when I have read others offer different translations of 56 they have been forced into throwing cross-reference and logic in the bin. That's not my approach.
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I have a major exam to prepare for next month. I took breaks to post. I can write a book on this verse. Due to time constraints, not able to post my entire thoughts on this verse in one sitting.
Let's look at the verse 56, step by step.
My references
- islamicity.com (translations of Asad, Picktall, Yusuf Ali).
- Translation of the Koran by Ahmed Ali, and that on free minds.
- http//islamicstudies.info/wordtranslation.php?ch=5&v=7
- http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=6
Couple of statements
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limitation when translating from one language to another. by this, i mean there are emotions, feelings, thoughts, expressions in my mother tongue for which there is no equivalent translation in English to convey. Perhaps the same could be said of Arabic to English translation.
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God is logical, noncontradictory, coherent, clear. God is all knowing and understanding. The Koran is fully detailed and complete.
My approach to a verse is
1). The context of the verse
2). Who is God talking to? Man, woman, prophet, a group, community...?
3). What is this verse about? The take home points? The message?
4). To the best, try to approach the verse without bias, prejudice, influence or preconceived beliefs or views.Ok in this verse 56
- Intentions made clear by God is that
- doesn't wish hardship
- to "purify" us and to complete his favor upon us
- end result is that we will be grateful
Questions
- first, who is God addressing to?
My understanding group of believers consisting certainly of men (and also women)
Verse starts out "o you who believe'. (Obvious).
"Any one of you" tells me that it is a group of more than 2
'If you had contact with women' tells me that men are being addressed.
For certain, group of believing men are being addressed. This is clear from the verse. Could this group also consist of women? I think so as I don't see why not.
- So how is this (purification, completion of favor and with end result of gratitude) of believing men and women be accomplished?
My understanding 'salat' and with this 'washing'
Let's say that 'salat' = ritual prayer involving sitting, standing, bowing, prostrating.
So God is telling group of believers "WHEN you STAND UP for the prayer, THEN you wash...." (Corpus Quran)
Various translators have translated "qumtum" as 'rise up' , 'stand up' , 'prepare for' , 'are about to'. Ok, this leaves me wondering what does qumtum actually mean? Is "quntum" a physical act or an intention?
Salat is an action which we have defined as ritual prayer. The act of washing is done BEFORE the action of salat.
Now, in this verse the instruction is not BEFORE you "qumtum" the salat. The instruction is "WHEN you qumtum the salat, THEN wash ...."
So clearing your mind of all that you know about salat and ablution, if you are reading this verse, what will you understand? Would you understand that "washing" is to be done BEFORE your "qumtum" for the salat? If so, why?
In a sentence, when will you use the words 'when' and 'then'? And what does it mean to use the words "when" and "then" in a sentence? The word "then" is a description of point in time - next in the order of time. The action that is to take place after "then" is conditional upon the action after "when". Ex - WHEN you are ready to pray, THEN you wash. So when do you wash? When you are ready to pray. Another ex WHEN you are ready to leave the house, THEN you close the windows. WHEN you vote, THEN you have a voice.
If you are instructing a group of people to wash certain body parts before eating, praying, playing, or whatever the activity, at certain fixed times in a day, how will you write a guide book with instructions? Have you EVER said to anyone, WHEN you stand up for the salat, THEN wash...?
The beginning sentence of this verse just seems a bit odd way of saying wash before salat if that is what it is. OR could it be something other than washing of body parts before salat? Could the command be "WHEN you "qumtum" for Salat, THEN you do x,y,z...?" So not before but after.
Plugging in possible meaning of salat=go/turn towards.... Could it mean 'WHEN you stand up/rise up/prepare for/about to the salat=go/turn towards..., THEN do x,y,z....? ....then you will be purified and be grateful?
Going on....
- is "purity" physical, spiritual, mental? What does purity mean in a physical sense?
Since the verse as translated is talking about physical washing of body parts, "purification" is deduced to mean physical.
Does washing the hands to the wrist, the face, and wiping the head and feet to the ankles with water make you physically pure? And how so? Your face, hands to the elbows, will be clean but does that make you physically pure?
Also how does "wiping" of the feet to the ankles and head make it physically pure? Meaning if I had dirt or bird droppings on my head or grease and mud on my feet, how will wiping the head and feet to the ankle make it clean?
Other scenerios you are a farmer working on the field in mid summer or a car mechanic or garbage collector or you work in a slaughter house with blood of animals all over your clothes..... Does just washing the face, hands, feet - make you physically pure?
My ex mother-in-law came to visit and for the week she was at my parents, she never showered and wore the same clothes. She had urinary incontinence and had a very bad odor. It was so bad that I asked my ex to talk to his mother. Though, she never missed salat and also went to the mosque for salat. So, would you say that washing parts of her body made her physically pure?
- What is "ceremonial impurity"?
Translators have defined "junuban" as 'ceremonial', 'unclean', 'having had intercourse', 'state requiring bath'. So what does "junuban" actually mean? And why the different translation? Ceremonial and having had intercourse sure don't sound the same or similar to me.
And so whatever this "ceremonial impurity" is, I am to purify myself. But how? Some translators have inserted their own interpretation. BUT the only thing that can be understood in this verse is that if you are in state of "junuban" then to purify yourself and no instructions given on how to purify.
Does "Tahara" mean a physical act? And "junuban" a physical state? So a physical state requiring a physical act? In the same verse, "tahara" or its root is used. If tahara is physical washing of the entire body (a bath) then it doesn't make sense for God to say that he wishes to "tahira"(bathe) you?
If "tahara" is what makes you physically pure then that means "ighsiloo" of face and hands is not complete purification. So complete purification is only to be done if you are in a state of "junuban". Does this even make sense?
Ok - let's take "tahara" to mean bath if you are in state of "junubun". Now, keep in mind that the command is "WHEN you qumtum for the salat, THEN wash..". Let's say just prior (15 min) to "qumtum" for salat, you did "tahara". So you have already purified yourself. If the whole point of this washing is to physically purify and you are already in a purified physical state, why then have to wash your face and hands that you just washed, and wipe your feet and head which your hair is still wet from the bath WHEN you qumtum for the salat?
What if you are in a state of junuban and have only enough water to wash hands, face? Then what? Or what if you got stuck in elevator and it is time for salat, then what? What if a couple used condoms and so technically speaking are not in a state of "seminal pollution" as Ahmed Ali translates junuban then does the couple still need to "purify"? What if the couple did not have sex but were physical intimate?
I can go on and on with different scenarios. The person who started the thread, asked what if you use toilet paper.... There are no answers to be found in the Koran which is supposed to be complete, fully detailed, easy to understand.....
Let's pause here for a moment and think about this verse. So what we have here are commands by God that essentially has generated questions and confusions.
Let's continue on...
- what does "illness" mean? There can be sickness of the mind, the heart, the soul or the body. Given that this verse is about physical washing, physical purification, sickness is understood to mean physical sickness.
So if I am sick with an infection - running a fever, chills, etc or have a migraine headache, God does not say if you are sick then take rest. In this verse, if you are sick and have water, do the washing. If you don't, then do tayammum. Yet in the same verse, God makes his intentions clear that he doesn't want to cause us hardship.
- How does doing tayammum physically purify a person? Wiping hands and face with dirt (however clean the dirt may be), means now you have dirt on your face and hands - not to mention risking getting dirt in your eyes. Who considers wiping dirt on the face as purifying yourself physically?
What is this "clean dirt" and what if you don't have clean dirt? Then what?
This whole sentence
"BUT if you are ill, or on a journey, or has ANYONE of you come from the toilet or has had contact with women AND not you do not find water then do tayammum with clean earth THEN wipe your hands and face with it".....simply doesn't make sense to me. First off, if there is no water to be found, does it matter if you are sick, on a journey, used the toilet or had sex with a woman? But that's not what this verse is saying. So there are four conditions mentioned for doing tayammum. Ok then what if you are not sick, not on a journey, have not used the toilet or had sex with a woman but you have no water - then what? The verse doesn't say, if you don't have water then do tayammum. 4 specific conditions are given and then told what to do if no water is to be found.
The second issue is I sure would like an expert in Linguistic to comment on this sentence. There is incongruence (not sure if this is the right word). Ok what do I mean? Look at the sentence again and how this sentence is translated by Asad and others like Yusuf Ali and Pictkhall. Look at the word for word translation.
Ok let's break this sentence down
If you are (plural perfect verb) sick AND you don't find (plural imperfect verb) water then do tayammum. (Ok makes sense)
If you are (plural perfect verb) on a journey AND you don't find (plural imperfect verb) water then do tayammum. (Ok makes sense)Then switches to...
If ANY one of you come from the toilet AND you don't find (plural imperfect verb) water then do tayammum. (This doesn't make sense).
Asad and some other translators made this sentence more congruent. Why is that? Clearly what the verse is saying is "if ANYONE of you come from the toilet AND you (referring to the group) don't find water then do tayammum. This is the right translation. Why did Asad change in the translation?
Also, to say "find no water" means that the believers didn't have water and had to find water. The verse does not say if you don't have water. The verse says "and if you find no water". More on this later.
6). How do you physically purify a community of believers? In this verse, God doesn't say He wants the believers to be physically pure. He makes it clear that he "intends to purify you and complete his favor on you."
In a 24 hr period, doing physical acts of salat and washing leads to physical purification for only a part of the day. And the rest of the time, believers are in a state of physical impurity. So God's intention to purify the believers is only for small part of the day?
- Gods says HE does not intend hardship/difficulty. Yet, he gives a command for salat to be done at fixed times, and to wash or bath. To go find water to do the washing. If you looked and can't find water then to put dirt in 4 circumstances. Isn't this a contradiction in statement of intentions and then the actions of God? He intends no hardship yet He gives commands to believers to do physical things that can be hardship.
Ok I have to stop here for now. I don't have the time to completely finish my thoughts on this verse.
To summarize
- there are differences in translations
- this verse has generated much questions and confusion
- is not coherent in thought.
- is not clear. (The rabbinic laws on prayer is much clearer and easy to understand)
- parts are detailed and parts are not
- is contradictory (time allowing will elaborate on this later)
- simply doesn't make sense.
- not easy to understand.
So either God is confusing, ambiguous, unclear, confusing, contradictory, not understanding of human beings.....or that the translations are poor and we just don't or resistant to accept that this verse is not pertaining to physical acts of washing and worship.
My position Translations are poor. People have intentionally or unintentionally have added, distorted, twisted the words of God.
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Re your point 2
"fa" does not necessarily denote sequence in time. See
http//corpus.quran.com/documentation/particlefa.jspFurthermore, to clarify/resolve this apparent issue you have with this structure, you simply need to find similar phrases in Quran, then determine what the structure implies. You never did that.
And to add, you use "fa" elsewhere in your post to NOT mean "then".
Re your point 3
The verse does not say doing XYZ makes you "pure". It says "intends to purify...". Big difference. Thus, this contention of yours is null and void. You repeat this error further in your post also.
Furthermore, you do not accept the obvious fact that washing tends to make one purer, thus it does "purify" you, thus making the ACTUAL Arabic word use valid.Re your point 4
You said
"Does "Tahara" mean a physical act? And "junuban" a physical state? So a physical state requiring a physical act? In the same verse, "tahara" or its root is used. If tahara is physical washing of the entire body (a bath) then it doesn't make sense for God to say that he wishes to "tahira"(bathe) you? "
That's because you have opted to use "bathe" for "tahira" when it is blatantly obvious from cross-reference that it is better rendered as "purify". YOU have made it specific when this was unnecessary. You repeat this unwarranted translation further in your work.You said
"What if you are in a state of junuban and have only enough water to wash hands, face? Then what? Or what if you got stuck in elevator and it is time for salat, then what? What if a couple used condoms and so technically speaking are not in a state of "seminal pollution" as Ahmed Ali translates junuban then does the couple still need to "purify"? What if the couple did not have sex but were physical intimate?"You answered your own prior question, and that is why it is left in general terms, i.e. "purify yourselves". If you are implying it must be made clear and humans do not know what is filth, dirt on their body, or sexual fluids etc how to get rid of them etc then that is up to you. I prefer to interpret the verse in a way that assumes humans have some idea on the concept of dirt and how to purify themselves.
You said
Let's pause here for a moment and think about this verse. So what we have here are commands by God that essentially has generated questions and confusions.To you perhaps.
Re your point 4, actually 5
"hardship" is relative. Does this not imply the salat discussed is important, even if one is ill etc. We can see similar in 4102 wherein even under threat of attack, it was still important to uphold.
But I do like this point. I think I discussed it before, but it is also possible this part would allow identification of those in difficulty, or water stress. It does emphasise having access to water, this is key to life and all successful communities.Re your point 5
You said
"How does doing tayammum physically purify a person? Wiping hands and face with dirt (however clean the dirt may be), means now you have dirt on your face and hands - not to mention risking getting dirt in your eyes. Who considers wiping dirt on the face as purifying yourself physically? "Try it. Put some tomato ketchup on your hands, then go outside where there is dry/clean soil/earth/sand and wipe your hands in it. Then tell us, do you have more or less ketchup on your hands?
You said
"Ok then what if you are not sick, not on a journey, have not used the toilet or had sex with a woman but you have no water - then what?"They sound clean to me. But in any case, in other words, what to do if someone is healthy (healthy yet constipated?), at their residence (without water yet they choose to stay there?), have not used the toilet (I assume that day?) and not had sex with a woman............. sounds like a highly unlikely situation, but let us say this happens. One simply needs to use deductive logic and apply the verse to themselves. The next question would be "do they have clean soil?" If so, use that. Or will you ask, but what if no clean soil either, i.e. they built their residence on filth I assume?
You said
"If ANY one of you come from the toilet AND you don't find (plural imperfect verb) water then do tayammum. (This doesn't make sense).Asad and some other translators made this sentence more congruent. Why is that? Clearly what the verse is saying is "if ANYONE of you come from the toilet AND you (referring to the group) don't find water then do tayammum. This is the right translation. Why did Asad change in the translation? "
Make sense to me. Going to the toilet is a private matter for an individual, not a group.
Re your point 6
You said "In a 24 hr period, doing physical acts of salat and washing leads to physical purification for only a part of the day. And the rest of the time, believers are in a state of physical impurity. "People do not suddenly become filthy if they do not wash every minute of the day. Considering salat is twice daily, lets assume, they would be pretty clean. Further, it does not say do not wash at other times etc.
Re your point 7
You said "Gods says HE does not intend hardship/difficulty. Yet, he gives a command for salat to be done at fixed times, and to wash or bath. To go find water to do the washing. If you looked and can't find water then to put dirt in 4 circumstances. Isn't this a contradiction in statement of intentions and then the actions of God? He intends no hardship yet He gives commands to believers to do physical things that can be hardship."Telling the truth can get you killed, shall we stop that too? Are you implying there is no physical commands in Quran, such as fighting, that can bring hardship?
You said
"6) is contradictory (time allowing will elaborate on this later)"I'm glad you said this, as I'm still waiting on you to point out a clear contradiction.
Let us make things simpler for ourselves, please bring forth your strongest and clearest contradiction in this verse that you can find.
And let us bear in mind, lets assume, for sake of argument, the traditional understanding of this verse has issues, I would be very interested in you or anyone bringing forth an understanding that has less issues relatively. To my knowledge, this has not been done thus far.
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You said that your approach is not to cross reference but then you do just that. With all due respect.....hmmmm? Yes, I am calling you out.
To address few things..
- per corpus Quran 'fa' is translated as THEN. If 'fa' doesn't mean THEN in this verse, then tell me what 'fa' here in this verse means.
This verse doesn't say wash BEFORE qumtum for salat. The translation of the verse is "WHEN you qumtum for the salat, FA-ighsiloo...."
- The verse does not say doing XYZ makes you "pure". It says "intends to purify...". Big difference. Thus, this contention of yours is null and void. You repeat this error further in your post also.
Hmmm....I am confused with your above statement. Can you please explain. so what you are saying is if you wash, wipe, purify....doesn't make you "pure"? confused
Furthermore, you do not accept the obvious fact that washing tends to make one purer, thus it does "purify" you, thus making the ACTUAL Arabic word use valid.
I don't believe you are understanding what I am saying. Washing any body part does make that body part clean/pure but does that mean you are in a state of physical purity? Washing my hand, face, feet will make those body parts purer but not my private area, armpits, mouth, etc.
- You answered your own prior question, and that is why it is left in general terms, i.e. "purify yourselves". If you are implying it must be made clear and humans do not know what is filth, dirt on their body, or sexual fluids etc how to get rid of them etc then that is up to you. I prefer to interpret the verse in a way that assumes humans have some idea on the concept of dirt and how to purify themselves.
Ok - then why the specific mention of face, hands, feet, head and washing with water? Also, a lot of people will disagree with seminal fluid being unclean or dirty. And we all know that taking a shower doesn't rid of the semen deposited inside the vagina.
- Wakas, I am not the only one with questions and confusions.
If this verse is crystal clear to you then answer this question
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I am stuck in an elevator. It is time for salat. There is no water or dirt. So what am I to do? And please base your answer from this verse.
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I am hiding under the table from terrorist who don't know that I am hiding. It is time for salat. What do I do?
(These are real life scenarios and I have many of them)
- what does "junuban" mean?
"hardship" is relative. Does this not imply the salat discussed is important, even if one is ill etc. We can see similar in 4102 wherein even under threat of attack, it was still important to uphold.
But I do like this point. I think I discussed it before, but it is also possible this part would allow identification of those in difficulty, or water stress. It does emphasise having access to water, this is key to life and all successful communities.True water is key to life. What if you are living in an area where there is a drought? When I was a kid, I remember the long lines to get water that was rationed. Time to time, fights would break out. We had set amount of water to use for cooking, cleaning, bathing, etc.
I like you to read my post on verse 4101-104 on another thread "concentrating on salat". You don't find it a hardship for thousands of soldiers fighting the enemy, under the threat of attack to find water to wash body parts?
- for GOD to say he intends to purify us and then to tell us to wipe self with dirt IS contradictory.
You said
Try it. Put some tomato ketchup on your hands, then go outside where there is dry/clean soil/earth/sand and wipe your hands in it. Then tell us, do you have more or less ketchup on your hands?Now, my hands have dirt on them plus some dried ketchup. Having ketchup in my hand would be cleaner. The dirt outside can have mold, bacteria,insects,fecal excremental from bugs, animals,birds... I use gloves when I garden and I wash my hands after I have had handled dirt. Certainly, do not handle food with hands that have dirt on them.
7). Re Make sense to me. Going to the toilet is a private matter for an individual, not a group
Wakas, we are not taking about going to the toilet being a private matter. Please look at the sentence structure again. An individual among the group is going to the toilet but the group is being addressed. Look at Asads translation and Yusuf Ali's or corpus Quran.
- People do not suddenly become filthy if they do not wash every minute of the day. Considering salat is twice daily, lets assume, they would be pretty clean. Further, it does not say do not wash at other times etc
Ok so if I am already clean smelling like roses, why the command to wash when qumtum for the salat? Like I asked, if I had taken a full body shower - washing every strand of hair, why then wash body parts already clean and washed?
If you consider salat to be twice a day, how do you figure you will be pretty clean all day? If you are working as a farmer, a car mechanic, garbage collector, a cattle herdsmen.... will your hands be clean pretty much all day?
Again, this verse is not about "cleanliness" and washing at other times also. It is about God intending to purify us and giving us commands on salat and washing when standing up for salat. And how THIS is supposed to purify you as that is the intention of God.
9). Telling the truth can get you killed, shall we stop that too? Are you implying there is no physical commands in Quran, such as fighting, that can bring hardship?
Ok - I like to stick to this verse and talking about salat and washing. Not digressing talking about fighting and other physical commands.
I have pointed out the contradictions in this verse, and if you don't see it then there is nothing more I can say. The more contradictions that I see has to do with other verses dealing with salat.
10). And let us bear in mind, lets assume, for sake of argument, the traditional understanding of this verse has issues, I would be very interested in you or anyone bringing forth an understanding that has less issues relatively. To my knowledge, this has not been done thus far.
Wakas, if there are "issues" with how a verse is translated or traditional understanding shouldn't we then try to understand what is the true meaning. I am looking for what is the meaning of salat and the verses in the Koran dealing with salat. I am certain that God will guide me to the truth and better understanding of this verse 56 and others. I suspect that the purification is not physical but purity of thought, deed, faith. at the end, what will i be judged on? how clean i kept myself in this life or the good deeds measured against the bad deeds I had done? In time, God will let me know if i am on the right path of understanding or not.
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Peace Justamuslim,
To add credit to your argument, I used to often wonder, where am I going to find dry soil in England, as it rains all the time there.
Dawn
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You said
"You said that your approach is not to cross reference but then you do just that. "Where did I say that? Please provide a quote and link. In future, please provide a quote of what I said rather than you stating what I apparently said without evidence. Thanks.
I requested the strongest/clearest contradiction you could find.
You said
"6) for GOD to say he intends to purify us and then to tell us to wipe self with dirt IS contradictory. "It seems you are mistaken about what the verse actually says. I recommend re-reading. But let us analyse your related statement of
"Now, my hands have dirt on them plus some dried ketchup. Having ketchup in my hand would be cleaner. The dirt outside can have mold, bacteria,insects,fecal excremental from bugs, animals,birds...
Note "dried". Tell us, is it easier to transfer to another, a dry substance by touch or a wet/liquid substance?
You claim having ketchup on your hands would be cleaner, but I simply used ketchup to demonstrate the principle. You can regard the ketchup as a body related substance, such as urine/poo/sexual fluid/sick/etc.
The verse says "clean soil" not what you mentioned.In case you wonder why I did not mention some other things you said. As I said
Let us make things simpler for ourselves, please bring forth your strongest and clearest contradiction in this verse that you can find.
If you are not content with one point, feel free to cite your strongest three objections/contradictions, then I will happily address them.
You said there are contradictions in the verse, that's a bold statement, so let's have the evidence to go with this bold statement.
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whenever we do good things like eating, sleeping, reading quran, meeting people with good intentions, at our work, etc., we need to be fresh and attentive in mind / thought and body.
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taking bath gives us freshness in mind / thought and body; cleaning our face, hands and legs also gives us freshness and attention. This is the message from the verse i got.
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urine, defecate, semen gives discomfort within us without cleaning, so we have to get cleaned. If we are not, we will not feel fresh to do any good things.
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may God increase us in our understandings to be righteous.
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I forgot to say, you said
""6) for GOD to say he intends to purify us and then to tell us to wipe self with dirt IS contradictory. ""The above statement presupposes "wiping with clean soil" made one less pure than prior to doing this - evidence?
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Peace Dr Gm
Do you mean I should do wudu in a puddle?
Dawn.
