Wudu, Ablution

hawk99

Question was if some one is using bathroom for defecation or urination and wipes oneself with tissue, can that person proceed with wudu or that person MUST wash private parts before he can perform wudu?

Peace Complex,

Welcome to the forum, If you go to the bathroom for defecation or urination ablution
is required before salat. Washing the private parts or PP is not part of ablution.

Also if someone performs wudu and few minutes later pass gas, does that person have to wash private part or he can perform another wudu?

Again, washing PP is not part of ablution but if you pass gas you must remake ablution.

Of course everyone here will look at the religious side to washing your 'private parts' (let's call it PP for short), me personally I just look at the logical side.
If Urine touches your hand, do you wash it?
Yes

General hygiene is good. One would not like to end up with urine in the wrong place
i.e., in your mouth or in your food yuck

If Urine touches your PP's, should you wash it?
Yes

Again general hygiene is a good thing but should not be confused with ablution.

ONE GOD

peace

Wakas

peace justamuslim,

This verse as translated and understood contradicts itself, not making much sense...

Once again, you have claimed "contradiction" yet provided little evidence. If you are certain there is a contradiction, then please state so clearly.

Dictionary
con?tra?dic?tion
Noun
A combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.

Please state in a clear manner, e.g.

statement A in Quran translation
contradicts
statement B in Quran translation

And in case it is not obvious, state why it contradicts.

If you cannot answer this, then please refrain from claiming contradictions then not citing the evidence then claiming one is seeking truth and implying others are wrong etc.

Wakas

peace hawk99, complex,

What is the evidence for doing ablution if one passes gas?
From my studies there is little to zero evidence.

Assuming going by Quran only, then the little evidence could be the claim that passing gas may release minute particles of fecal matter, thus one must do ablution etc.

All the other evidence suggests doing ablution is not necessary, e.g.
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=862.msg3353#msg3353
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=675.msg2507#msg2507

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I think dear brother Wakas is right. Passing of gases and that kind of stuff is a remnant from hadith islam which is a quite doubtful factor to necessitate additional cleaning in accordance to 56. And it does not have any effect on the foul stench anyhow

Another hadith invention is that sleep would make new ablution required.

Also, I cannot understand how the verse is contradicting itself. It is pretty straightforward procedure to clean the parts of body exposed the most slightly. It is not saying much more than how to clean and nothing more.

God bless you

hawk99

peace hawk99, complex,

What is the evidence for doing ablution if one passes gas?
From my studies there is little to zero evidence.

Assuming going by Quran only, then the little evidence could be the claim that passing gas may release minute particles of fecal matter, thus one must do ablution etc.

All the other evidence suggests doing ablution is not necessary, e.g.
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=862.msg3353#msg3353
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=675.msg2507#msg2507

Peace Wakas,

Thanks for the link it saves me from typing part of my response, this is from irfan

http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=gonvbedrpd0o3ja59i0f7qhtj2&topic=862.msg3329#msg3329

Also Garlic and other pungent foods during congregational prayer would be considered
an imposition, also Body odor would be in bad taste.

O children of Adam, you shall be clean and dress nicely when you go to the masjid.
And eat and drink moderately; Surely, He does not love the gluttons. (731)

Eating and drinking moderately can reduce flatulence, of course there are exceptions.

ONE GOD

peace

drfazl

Will anybody speak of purifying or ablution of the mind and cleansing it before any act of good deed that gives Salam or solace to the hearts around? 928. O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque.

Imparting Salam being the end of salat, any good deed done with belief in and expecting reward only from Allah will surely make you enter heavens. Belief in Allah alone without idolising things in return is shirking away from shirk, cleansing your souls thus, and doing good deeds is salat.

Please do not link piss and shit to ablution and make this thread stench. This is basic cleanliness every person other than Muslims diligently follows even to step out on to the streets from their houses, leave alone entering the houses of worship. Almost all people of all religions and even cast away people know these better than a Muslim.

fazl

Complex

Peace Complex,

Welcome to the forum, If you go to the bathroom for defecation or urination ablution
is required before salat. Washing the private parts or PP is not part of ablution.

Again, washing PP is not part of ablution but if you pass gas you must remake ablution.

General hygiene is good. One would not like to end up with urine in the wrong place
i.e., in your mouth or in your food yuck

Again general hygiene is a good thing but should not be confused with ablution.

ONE GOD

peace

I understand, it's just if you wash your areas regularly, you wouldn't need to worry about whether to do it before Ablution/Wudu or not.

Just trying to keep things simple D

Indelwyn

I can't wash my PP at work. 3 out of 5 prayers are done here. Most of the USA does not have a water sprayer in the bathroom just toilet paper. You can take a bottle with you but it is kinda gross keeping that in your work drawer, that everyone has access to.

I see per Quran washing that area is not required under normal circumstances, so therefore I don't.

Wakas

peace haw99,

Thanks for the link it saves me from typing part of my response, this is from irfan

http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=gonvbedrpd0o3ja59i0f7qhtj2&topic=862.msg3329#msg3329

Yes, but Irfan does not talk about mandatory ablution for ordinary passing of gas, whereas you seemed to.

unknownuser

I can't wash my PP at work. 3 out of 5 prayers are done here. Most of the USA does not have a water sprayer in the bathroom just toilet paper. You can take a bottle with you but it is kinda gross keeping that in your work drawer, that everyone has access to.

Problems are always against us to testing our faith.

Not only USA who suffered unIslamic toilet, but also the malls, work places or another public places in many countries including mine country suffered the same.

The example is this male toilet

http//www.hedwigus.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/wcu02.jpg

I rarely using this kind of toilet because the urine splashing my pants instead I using the closed door toilet.

hawk99

peace haw99,

Yes, but Irfan does not talk about mandatory ablution for ordinary passing of gas, whereas you seemed to.

Peace Wakas,

I do indeed, I consider farting in the class of excretions from the private parts,
which would entail a new ablution, eventhough, one would not have
to go to the privy necessarily to relieve oneself. Also during prayer it could be a
distraction because of the smell no matter if we are alone or in congregation. yuck
In addition, we are ordered by God to concentrate when we pray, would not passing
gas be a distraction? What do you think of flatulence during single person prayer
and congregational prayer?

God knows best

God Bless

O0

hawk99

If this verse is so straight forward and obvious then what if....

If a person has urinary incontinence (which quite a few women do as they age) where they leak urine with coughing, sneezing, etc - are they then considered unclean and cannot pray? So after doing ablution in the midst of praying, a persons with incontinence coughs leaking urine that means what? Person has become unclean, needs to stop praying, change underwear, do ablution again?
Or what if a person has urinary catheter? Or a colostomy bag? Or a draining fistula? Or weeping wound? Or.....
Now a woman has some kind of discharge or another throughout her cycle. I suppose this is considered to be clean then? And if she has some kind of vaginal irritation or infection? Does taking a bath cleanse a woman of seminal fluid deposited in her vagina?

Peace justamuslim,

What if a man has one leg and one arm, how does he perform ablution? What if a woman has IBS should she pass on salat? Remember ablution is a symbolic cleansing, a tone setter, so worship overides water, that is why we can make Tayammum, the act of ablution demonstrates symbolic cleaning, for which God has decreed. So my advice for those who have illnesses is, do what you can to please God, cleanse and worship the best you can, follow the rules as much as possible because he recognizes our intentions.

Just my opinion

God Bless

peace

Wakas

peace hawk99,

Peace Wakas,

I do indeed, I consider farting in the class of excretions from the private parts ,
which would entail a new ablution, eventhough, one would not have
to go to the privy necessarily to relieve oneself.

You may consider it "in the class" but Quran says "or one of you have come from the toilet". If we consider God does not choose His words haphazardly, then that is there for a reason.
So, on the one hand you are stating ablution is necessary, yet on the other admitting one would not need to go to the privy, when this is what Quran is saying. Please reflect on this.

In addition, we are ordered by God to concentrate when we pray, would not passing
gas be a distraction? What do you think of flatulence during single person prayer
and congregational prayer?

If one is passing gas and one is the only person in the room for example, then I do not consider this much of a distraction. If there are others within earshot and there is multiple and noisy flatulence, then yes this might be a distraction. Many things can distract. Will you also apply your view to coughing, burping, sneezing etc?

To me, Quran is simple. If it says "al ghaiti" i.e. hole in the ground, I ask myself what does one do in a hole in the ground, thus conclude it is most likely referring to pee/poo only. Each to their own.

hawk99

peace hawk99,
You may consider it "in the class" but Quran says "or one of you have come from the toilet". If we consider God does not choose His words haphazardly, then that is there for a reason.
So, on the one hand you are stating ablution is necessary, yet on the other admitting one would not need to go to the privy, when this is what Quran is saying. Please reflect on this.

Yes God does not choose words haphazzardly, on the other hand God encourages us to
think, also, if we pass gas can there be fecal residue emmitted but not enough to
venture to the privy?

peace hawk99,
If one is passing gas and one is the only person in the room for example, then I do not consider this much of a distraction.

So if you are alone and pass gas while worshipping, and it smells like "all get out"
you would not be distracted? I think it best to blow out one before ablution then have
a nice comfortable contact, than to sit/stand in smelly fumes, yes/no?

peace hawk99,
If there are others within earshot and there is multiple and noisy flatulence, then yes this might be a distraction. Many things can distract. Will you also apply your view to coughing, burping, sneezing etc?

No, coughing, burping, sneezing etc has no correlation to the privy whereas flatulence
does.

peace hawk99,
To me, Quran is simple. If it says "al ghaiti" i.e. hole in the ground, I ask myself what does one do in a hole in the ground, thus conclude it is most likely referring to pee/poo only. Each to their own.

I agree that the Quran is easy to understand, but it also says "touched
(lmastumu) the women" you should perform Tayammum if you find no water.
So I conclude the long standing reasons for performing ablution stand at the moment,
to each his own.

God Bless

peace

Wakas

peace hawk99,

....if we pass gas can there be fecal residue emmitted but not enough to
venture to the privy?

Yes, theoretically. Likewise, laughing can emit urine. In fact, even after one has gone to the toilet, drips of urine may be emitted afterwards for some time. Interestingly, your position implies that since flatulence could emit material, however small, one should do ablution, then this reasoning would also apply for drops of urine or after laughing. Such stringency is not only unwarranted in the explicit Quran text but also impractical.

So if you are alone and pass gas while worshipping, and it smells like "all get out"
you would not be distracted? I think it best to blow out one before ablution then have
a nice comfortable contact, than to sit/stand in smelly fumes, yes/no?

I said not "much of a distraction". And of course if one is in a position to "blow out one" before doing any act in which concentration is required then that is best. In any case, your reason of distraction goes unmentioned in Quran.

You would also include silent and odourless farts in requiring ablution, thus your distraction argument is a non-starter.

No, coughing, burping, sneezing etc has no correlation to the privy whereas flatulence
does.

The only "correlation" flatulence has to the privy is that it is emitted from one of the parts used in the privy. You yourself even stated one does not need to go to the privy for flatulence. My point with the coughing/burping/sneezing was to counter your distraction by bodily function argument, which as I said goes unmentioned in Quran.

I agree that the Quran is easy to understand, but it also says "touched
(lmastumu) the women" you should perform Tayammum if you find no water.

I'm not sure what you are implying with the above.

In any case, as I said originally, the only semi-credible argument, that I can see, for ablution because of flatulence is one that it is possible some fecal matter is emitted after such. That is it. Your distraction argument, in my view, holds little to no weight.

hawk99

peace hawk99,
Yes, theoretically. Likewise, laughing can emit urine. In fact, even after one has gone to the toilet, drips of urine may be emitted afterwards for some time. Interestingly, your position implies that since flatulence could emit material, however small, one should do ablution, then this reasoning would also apply for drops of urine or after laughing. Such stringency is not only unwarranted in the explicit Quran text but also impractical.

Peace Wakas,

One should remain in the toilet and ensure that they are finished urinating before leaving
the bathroom, shaking and wiping until there is no drip, a common practice I suppose.
If you cannot stop the flow of urine because of bodily malfunction that is all together
another matter. The prayer takes eminence over ablution, the main objective is to pray.
Therefore if one has a colostomy bag, a bullet wound, continuous urine flow, pray in the
name of God. God is not trying to commit a hardship for us, do the easy thing, God is
forgiving most merciful.

Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance
for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this
month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number
of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill
your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

When My servants ask you about Me, I am always near. I answer their prayers
when they pray to Me. The people shall respond to Me and believe in Me, in order to be
guided.

peace hawk99,
I said not "much of a distraction". And of course if one is in a position to "blow out one" before doing any act in which concentration is required then that is best. In any case, your reason of distraction goes unmentioned in Quran.

Yes my reason for distraction goes unmentioned in Quran as you say but we have a brain
yes/no? so my common sense tells me not to make others in my environment uncomfortable
by having rectal emissions, body odor, bad breath etc.,

peace hawk99,
You would also include silent and odourless farts in requiring ablution, thus your distraction argument is a non-starter.

Are we to delineate types of farts requiring ablution? While I can appreciate unintentional humor, I personally don't think the types of rectal emmisions deserve attention.

peace hawk99,
The only "correlation" flatulence has to the privy is that it is emitted from one of the parts used in the privy. You yourself even stated one does not need to go to the privy for flatulence. My point with the coughing/burping/sneezing was to counter your distraction by bodily function argument, which as I said goes unmentioned in Quran.

Here the point being that coughing/burping/sneezing has no correlation to the subject
at hand.

peace hawk99,
I'm not sure what you are implying with the above.

We can get back to the meaning of lmastumu in 5/6 and 4/43 at another time God willing.

peace hawk99,
In any case, as I said originally, the only semi-credible argument, that I can see, for ablution because of flatulence is one that it is possible some fecal matter is emitted after such. That is it. Your distraction argument, in my view, holds little to no weight.

Apparently my distraction argument will hold no weight until you reason or have an
experience that will enlighten you.

God Bless you

peace

Wakas

peace hawk99,

Please review what you have said in our discussion.

Allow me to summarise

your view is ablution is required for all flatulence, including silent and odourless farts, rendering your distraction argument as a non-starter.
your "do ablution due to flatulence" doesn't actually help the problem you originally mentioned, i.e. that of distraction and/or making others uncomfortable. I assume you realise this.
whilst things such as coughing/burping/sneezing can distract, they dont count in terms of ablution, according to you, as they are not from a part used in the privy
you seemingly imply it is rare for drop(s) of urine to be emitted after urination if one does the things you said, when I am of the view it is quite common for this to happen to anyone. Feel free to read up on it. Note, I may only be talking about one drop. It would be interesting if it could be determined what is more common fecal matter, however small, emitted from ordinary farts or leaking of urine, however small, say 5mins after urinating. If the former requires ablution, according to you, then the latter should also. I recommend dawning a pair of white undies and using a cheap UV light to see if it happens to you. You might be surprised. ;D
Quran specifically says "one of you has come from al ghaiti" i.e. "the hole in the ground" and you include flatulence in this proviso.

Apparently my distraction argument will hold no weight until you reason or have an
experience that will enlighten you.

In case it is not obvious, I have already implied/stated distractions are not a good thing, but there is a BIG difference between saying this and saying you MUST do ablution for flatulence.
If one wants to do ablution for flatulence, that's fine, that's up to them. Would I say you MUST do it? No.

unknownuser

Peace

Quran is a decisive Allah's commadment, and cannot be any tolerance again.

22 That is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the righteous.

This means if Quran say A, then we must follow that A.
If Quran prohibit B, then we must avoid that B.

If the Quran say if fart is not broke the ablutoin then we must accept it if even we're disagree with it.

hawk99

Peace Wakas,

When you and I perform worship in the same room, could you please excuse yourself
before rectal gas excretions just so I would not mind having you in the same room?

peace hawk99,

your view is ablution is required for all flatulence, including silent and odourless farts, rendering your distraction argument as a non-starter.

The possibility of distraction takes precedence, I suggest you cannnot gauge what type
of rectal gas excretions are about to happen, so to delineate what types of farts are a
distraction is not necessary, all farts are considered to be the same because of the
possibility of disturbance.

your "do ablution due to flatulence" doesn't actually help the problem you originally mentioned, i.e. that of distraction and/or making others uncomfortable. I assume you realise this.

My original point was rectal emissions require wudu, remember?

whilst things such as coughing/burping/sneezing can distract, they dont count in terms of ablution, according to you, as they are not from a part used in the privy

Agreed

you seemingly imply it is rare for drop(s) of urine to be emitted after urination if one does the things you said, when I am of the view it is quite common for this to happen to anyone. Feel free to read up on it. Note, I may only be talking about one drop. It would be interesting if it could be determined what is more common fecal matter, however small, emitted from ordinary farts or leaking of urine, however small, say 5mins after urinating. If the former requires ablution, according to you, then the latter should also. I recommend dawning a pair of white undies and using a cheap UV light to see if it happens to you. You might be surprised. ;D

I do not conclude that it is rare as you stated, I concluded that one should not let such
problems prevent one from worshipping God. Come on Wakas, not the ultra violet light! laugh

Quran specifically says "one of you has come from al ghaiti" i.e. "the hole in the ground" and you include flatulence in this proviso.

Yes

In case it is not obvious, I have already implied/stated distractions are not a good thing, but there is a BIG difference between saying this and saying you MUST do ablution for flatulence.
If one wants to do ablution for flatulence, that's fine, that's up to them. Would I say you MUST do it? No.

As per Quran I must agree, one the otherhand, the Quran, also does not say one must
abandon the worship area if he/she lets a big stinky loose, does it make it okay to do so yes/no?
Remember there is fecal matter expelled when we fart no matter how minute.
If one wants to fart and worship, fart and worship, fart and worship and continue to fart
throughout their worship it is okay according to you yes/no?

GOD BLESS

peace

Wakas

peace hawk99,

I do not conclude that it is rare as you stated, I concluded that one should not let such
problems (i.e. emission of urine) prevent one from worshipping God.

But the principle is the same. You are saying ablution for flatulence, but are seemingly saying here ablution not required for urine emission, which is not rare according to you, so is fairly common then.

Your view
flatulence ---> ablution
urine ---> no ablution

Your view makes no sense. The only sense I can make of it is to say since flatulence comes with a tell tale sign/feeling, then it can be detected thus ablution is required because you know you farted. Whereas droplet urine emission may not be noticed hence requires no ablution. Is this your view?

You will note that what often happens when one inserts unmentioned rules into Quran they have to make up stuff based on no evidence and subjectivity, e.g. not a privy part so doesn't count, fart is detectable so requires ablution whereas urine emission does not even though its common etc.

As per Quran I must agree, one the otherhand, the Quran, also does not say one must
abandon the worship area if he/she lets a big stinky loose, does it make it okay to do so yes/no?

If one wants to fart and worship, fart and worship, fart and worship and continue to fart
throughout their worship it is okay according to you yes/no?

I must repeat myself distraction or farting is not ideal, but that does not mean one MUST excuse themselves. In fact, we can reasonably deduce this from Quran itself because it implies if one is ill or travelling one should still attend the regular/timed salat/bond if able, thus clearly it places significant importance to this act. So, given that we know this, then is it such a big deal to possibly make others a little uncomfortable (subjectively) by releasing some farts? Not to me. Of course, if one is releasing multiple stinky farts then they should minimise the impact, as this is common courtesy, e.g. stand at the peripheries etc but I would not say one must leave or one must do ablution (which does not do anything to minimise the impact of the initial farting).

Remember there is fecal matter expelled when we fart no matter how minute.

Strong claim. Evidence?