Wudu, Ablution
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From my studies, when I have read others offer different translations of 56 they have been forced into throwing cross-reference and logic in the bin. That's not my approach.
So what did you mean then when you said that is not your approach? confused
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No, I did not misread the verse about the clean soil.
You told me to go outside....well let me quote you.
Try it. Put some tomato ketchup on your hands, then go outside where there is dry/clean soil/earth/sand and wipe your hands in it. Then tell us, do you have more or less ketchup on your hands?
And you said
The next question would be "do they have clean soil?" If so, use that. Or will you ask, but what if no clean soil either, i.e. they built their residence on filth I assume
the soil outside may be dry but sure is not "clean"
Ok Wakas, can you answer a straight forward question define CLEAN soil? I sure wouldn't call the soil outside to be clean!
By the way, if you put liquid substance on your hand, depending on what the liquid is, it will dry up upon contact with air. May it be urine, fecal matter, ketchup, juice, paint, etc. Also,have you ever tried getting paint off your hands with water?
Going back to the verse God did not say he intends to purify me in relative terms. In other words, having clean soil is purer than having ketchup.
replacing one kind of impurity with another doesn't make the hand pure.
having granules of "clean" soil on my hand and face is not what one would consider physical purification of the body.-------------------/--------
Here's a response that someone gave to a 5 year old who asked what dirt is (the excerpt is taken from the following website - . http//www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01036.htm)"in a general way, we can call dirt the earth that is the soil of our planet. The soil is made mostly of substances called silicates mixed up with a lot of other substances, so the soil can have different properties, as different colors, for example.
In another point of view, dirt is the opposite of clean, but what is clean? a thing is clean when it has no impurities, no mixtures. When your mom washes your jeans very well, it is clean. Now if you put it on and go to play outside, and run and play, do a lot of things, your jeans becomes dirty, covered with impurities, and must be washed again. So the dirt over it can be a lot of things earth powder, a piece of ice-cream, ink or colored pencils blots, oil, ketchup, and so on. I mean anything that makes something unclean can be called dirt.
OK? And thanks for asking NEWTON! it was a pleasure answer to you!
Mabel
(Dr. Mabel Rodrigues)-------------/--------
Putting clean soil on my face and hands would make my hand and face unclean. I have hand sanitizer which I use all day long and especially when I am traveling. I always carry with me facial wipes, hand sanitizes and towelettes when traveling. So according to this verse, when there is no water I am to wipe my clean face and hands with clean soil? In other words, get my hands dirty with clean soil.
So again...... To say that God intends to purify us and then tell us to wipe our faces and hands in clean soil is very much contradictory.
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Second contradiction is that the verse is not clear.
Last year, the city cut off water supply due to some repair/problem. The only water I had was in the toilet bowl. So here is a situation where I am not sick or on a journey or used the toilet or had sex - the conditions given for doing tayammum. What was I supposed to do? No clear instruction given in this verse.
Ok, let's suppose that I did use the bathroom wiping myself with toilet tissue paper. Where was I supposed to find CLEAN soil to do tayammum?
God does not say what I should do when I have no water or clean soil. I would think that God who is all knowing and understanding would be aware of the infinite number of situation and predicaments that a person can find herself in. When giving instructions considering the importance of it, shouldn't the instructions be give clear and not make it difficult?
That leads to the third contradiction about how God does not want to make for us difficulty. God commands us even when in fear and under threat of attack (verses 2237-238, 4101-104) to find water or clean soil and then to worship him yet God says he is wishes no difficulties. And if you don't see contradictions, there is nothing more I can say.
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In case you wonder why I did not mention some other things you said. As I said
If you are not content with one point, feel free to cite your strongest three objections/contradictions, then I will happily address them.You said there are contradictions in the verse, that's a bold statement, so let's have the evidence to go with this bold statement.
Wakas, so what you are saying is that you will only address things on your terms. You have concluded that the contradictions that I have pointed out are not strong enough in your opinion and so you will not address anything else. Am I understanding you correctly? So you will not answer my other straight forward questions?
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What does 'fa' in this verse mean? per corpus Quran 'fa' is translated as THEN. If 'fa' doesn't mean 'THEN' in this verse, then what does 'fa' here in this verse mean?
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what does "junuban" mean? What is "ceremonial impurity"? others defined junuban as 'unclean', 'having had intercourse', 'state requiring bath'. With different translations, which one is accurate?
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what is CLEAN dirt again?
.... Well, will stop here.
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So what did you mean then when you said that is not your approach? confused
I.e. my approach is NOT to throw cross-reference/logic in the bin.
Everyone that I have read attempting to provide an alternative to the common translation of 56 is forced to throw cross-reference/logic in the bin, i.e. disregard cross-reference/logic.You said
Wakas, so what you are saying is that you will only address things on your terms.
In a way, yes. However, I am trying to make our discussion more efficient. My time is finite, thus I prefer to use my time efficiently. For example, let's say Jim has a problem with verse X and lists 100 objections, but we all know all of the objections will not be of equal strength, some points will be stronger than others etc. I am requesting the strongest/clearest objections. In your previous post you have listed 1-3, if this is them, please state so. If you prefer not to discuss "on my terms" feel free to state this also, we can opt not to discuss etc.
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Peace Justamuslim,
To add credit to your argument, I used to often wonder, where am I going to find dry soil in England, as it rains all the time there.
Dawn
If it rains, then there is water everywhere; no soil is required.
Peace Dr Gm
Do you mean I should do wudu in a puddle?
Dawn.
i mean u can collect and store water from rain direct, whenever u need.
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These discussions are beginning to sound like Sayyid Sabiq's Fiqh us Sunnah!!
Maybe we should first ask 'how useful is the Traditional interpretation'. Even if we rip 5/6 out of context, why not ask 'why does Allah ask us to wash only certain body parts'. Why not take a shower? Why do this at all? I pray without doing wudhu, the effect is still the same. And if we're interested in context at all as more than just passing remarks, we should ask WHY HERE of all places. Why next to deen al-kameel in 5/3 and the yawm in 5/4-5? All pertinent questions to me.
I find asking these questions then matching it to my understanding of the overall theme of the Quran really helps. TIMTINS tho.... peace
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Ok Wakas, can you answer a straight forward question define CLEAN soil? I sure wouldn't call the soil outside to be clean!
Can you define what a large number is? Is 506 a large number? I may find it a small number, but others may think it is large. That is because there is no clear definition. It's what we call relativity.
The idea is to just find clean earth. If you cannot, then find the most clean earthy piece of stone, paper, wood, or anything from the earth. No magic, it's all about the intention. Do you want God to define clean earth for you, like tradionalists try to define all islamic laws?
I am wondering, since you are trying to bash the traditional interpretation of 56, can you find a BETTER interpretation? Do you want to say that when God commands to wash our face, hands till the elebows, head, feet till the ankles, that he is not talking about a physical cleaning?
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peace
dry seasons can be long..........
In the central as well as the southern regions of Egypt, it can go for several years without rainfall.
dear 357,
then, we pray for forgiveness and pray Him for removal of our association of our knowledge 'dry season.. can go for several years' and pray for rain all the year; we'll pray Him to clean our thoughts. by sure we can see His sign if we are truthful. God is most merciful; Almighty.
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peace
2267UNTO every community have We appointed ways of worship,82 which they ought to observe. Hence, do not let those draw thee into disputes on this score,83 but summon unto thy Sustainer for, behold, thou art indeed on the right way. (226 And if they argue with thee, say "God knows best what you are doing."
2269 God will judge between you on Resurrection Day with regard to all on which you were wont to differ. -
Peace Family,
What am I missing? How can 5/6 be miss understood, one of the more straight-
forward ayats in Quran.O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall
(1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and
(4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you
shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion
(urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot
find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry
soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion
difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you,
that you may be appreciative.Too easy!
God Bless
peace
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Yes hawk 99 you're true, the verse 56 is actual said about the ablution and cannot be debate again.
Stand for salat.
Salat is ritual, salat is connecting and whetever we all have differences in what's the meaning of salat, but ablution must be done before salat, because it's Allah's order, Allah's commandment.
Meanwhile if some of you didn't recognize word qumtum as one of the ritual of salat, then just see that word as allegorical word.Example if you tafseer word "salat" as the connection not ritual, then lets say the word qumtum/stand in 56 as an allogerical too, so the word stand can be mean commitment, niat to do salat or etc.But if you tafseer the word salat as "ritual" then you may tafseer word qumtum as physical movement of salat.
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I've been on this site for a while (only just made an account) and folks love to stray off topic quite a lot.
Question was if some one is using bathroom for defecation or urination and wipes oneself with tissue, can that person proceed with wudu or that person MUST wash private parts before he can perform wudu? Also if someone performs wudu and few minutes later pass gas, does that person have to wash private part or he can perform another wudu?
Of course everyone here will look at the religious side to washing your 'private parts' (let's call it PP for short), me personally I just look at the logical side.
If Urine touches your hand, do you wash it?
Yes
If Urine touches your PP's, should you wash it?
Yes
That's how I look at it, and that goes for excrete as well. I find it rather disgusting not washing oneself after using the toilet, but that's just me I guess sunNow for releasing gas, I can't comment. I haven't looked at that in enough detail yet. Better be safe than sorry I suppose...
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Peace hawk99,
Remember the verse which says something like "The human being is the most argumentative type".
God bless you
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Is there any one who can say all the meanings of salat and then the definition of salat using each of its various meanings. Similarly the meanings of Wudhu and the multi-various definitions of the same? What is being discussed here is absolutely has no connection to rituals, prayers or whatever.
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Is there any one who can say all the meanings of salat and then the definition of salat using each of its various meanings. Similarly the meanings of Wudhu and the multi-various definitions of the same? What is being discussed here is not about the real issue of salat that absolutely has no connection to rituals like prayers, ablusion or whatever.
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What am I missing? How can 5/6 be miss understood, one of the more straight-
forward ayats in Quran.What is missing is an accurate translation of the verse. For instance, Asad has corrected God's grammar so that it would make sense. Apparent that people have inserted their own bias and influence.
If this verse is so straight forward and obvious then what if....
If a person has urinary incontinence (which quite a few women do as they age) where they leak urine with coughing, sneezing, etc - are they then considered unclean and cannot pray? So after doing ablution in the midst of praying, a persons with incontinence coughs leaking urine that means what? Person has become unclean, needs to stop praying, change underwear, do ablution again?
Or what if a person has urinary catheter? Or a colostomy bag? Or a draining fistula? Or weeping wound? Or.....
Now a woman has some kind of discharge or another throughout her cycle. I suppose this is considered to be clean then? And if she has some kind of vaginal irritation or infection? Does taking a bath cleanse a woman of seminal fluid deposited in her vagina?
This verse as translated and understood contradicts itself, not making much sense but there seems to be much defensiveness. If you are resolute with these long held definitions and understanding of this verse to mean washing body parts or applying dirt before standing up for "salat" then by all means continue on with your ways and I continue on my way of seeking and searching for the Truths.
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Peace hawk99,
Remember the verse which says something like "The human being is the most argumentative type".
God bless you
And those who are most argumentative are those who are in the wrong.
