Sign of God
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ibc8sD5sgw
4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
5449 Everything We have created in measure.
5450 And Our commands are done at once with the blink of an eye.871 Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High.
872 The One who has created and developed.
873 And the One who measured and then guided. -
Good to see you have access to YT, Renegade. Did you check out Klingschor's and any other related stuff yet? P
There is something so poetic and majestic in all of the symmetry and pattern laid out before us. It's breathtaking and I think that's why I've heard many scientists, such as Prof. Brian Cox (he's atheist or non religious as far as I know) say that it's a miracle that's we're here and they always talk of the splendor and beauty of the world and universe around us. It captivates everyone and the feeling and sense that it's a miracle of some sort seems to remain amongst most people. Mash'Allah. Thanks for sharing.
Salaam.
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I would also add that it shows us that there is a foundation and intricate pattern within life and the universe. That there is still a lot more to know and that we may not ever know a lot of it but that's that the point really. With a lot of things in life, there is both reason and faith. You use your reason to understand a set number of things, you don't know all the answers, you might not be able to explain other things but you have faith in it because the reasoning is established. That's why the whole Universe can seem very "bizarre" - but this is reality, reality is "unbelievable" at times.
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Salam Renegade
for a believer, this video will increase his believe- but for an unbeliever, it will be propaganda and he will discuss it scientific, until nothing rests from the fingerprint...and this is also written in the Quran. (
)peaceI know (
Good to see you have access to YT, Renegade. Did you check out Klingschor's and any other related stuff yet? P
There is something so poetic and majestic in all of the symmetry and pattern laid out before us. It's breathtaking and I think that's why I've heard many scientists, such as Prof. Brian Cox (he's atheist or non religious as far as I know) say that it's a miracle that's we're here and they always talk of the splendor and beauty of the world and universe around us. It captivates everyone and the feeling and sense that it's a miracle of some sort seems to remain amongst most people. Mash'Allah. Thanks for sharing.
Salaam.
yay for proxies. Yes I checked out a few videos and channels. P
The golden ratio is also found in the human DNA and even on a molecular level. NP. My pleasure )
I would also add that it shows us that there is a foundation and intricate pattern within life and the universe. That there is still a lot more to know and that we may not ever know a lot of it but that's that the point really. With a lot of things in life, there is both reason and faith. You use your reason to understand a set number of things, you don't know all the answers, you might not be able to explain other things but you have faith in it because the reasoning is established. That's why the whole Universe can seem very "bizarre" - but this is reality, reality is "unbelievable" at times.
Absolutely
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yay for proxies. Yes I checked out a few videos and channels.
Do you have a channel/username on there? At first I found Klingschor quite offensive, he's very full on and intense in his criticisms of Islam. Then I looked at it more from a point of view of appreciating another person's understanding of the Quran and actually I feel benefited at times by it. Although, I have to admit his and other anti-Islam videos have annoyed me at times in the past because I see clear points that they don't address. The Islam and rape one is an example. Then the issue of saying that beat your wives is how we should appreciate that verse. There's so much more than that - there's the fact that the verse offers stages, that you cannot be harsh with your partner in divorce, that you are to treat your partner with kindness - just like we treat parents with kindness, orphans with kindness, this is a theme developing, it can't be missed. Then there's also the word itself.
Some people appear to think that God would offer us challenges in other ways in terms of our intent - that may be acceptable (I'm referring to Atheists for the most part here) but not in the Quran itself? Well, I would have thought that it would be in the very book or recitation that God would grant to people. Anyway, I rambled a bit but some of those videos have helped me look at the Quran and ascertain the points they miss or dismiss. So there's a positive in there as well, of course by the mercy of Allah.
The golden ratio is also found in the human DNA and even on a molecular level. NP. My pleasure
AbsolutelyLike the other user said, we may look at these things with awe but although every human may be amazed by these things, Atheists, Agnostics etc I suppose especially will remain unconvinced. In terms of a straightforward and clear approach to understanding it though, the other explanations would involve random events and chance. And not even chance in terms of probability because technically doesn't that require laws?
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Salaam,
As I have written before in my posts, there is an overwhelming amount of proof that there is a Maker of this Universe. It would be highly illogical that the Universe would explode into existence all by itself. There has to be a higher intelligence behind it and which is not bound to our known natural laws and so on. There is much that is beyond our comprehension and we will never figure it out until perhaps after the Judgment Day, the day when everything will instead implode and cease to exist for another world to take over instead (if we believe in what is prophesied in the holy scriptures).
There is much we do not know and we will not know either, since it is a part of God's test. He will not show up physically until the end of days or show any physical proof of His existence until then. Although the World and the Universe itself it enormous evidence of the existence of a God for those who can perceive it.
We do not really know the background to the whole story, the purpose God had when he made our physical being and the Universe, but he did not create it just for entertainment. We do know that He felt like creating a creature from mud, maybe for His own joy, we do not know, but since we obviously failed some introductory tests He exposed us to, he let us begin a journey in a real trial. The life on this planet we live, planet Earth. I suppose we will have to live our lives and pass the test to know the original purpose of it all.
The sign of God you perceive through God's blessings and by being a good human and sometimes it seems to be affected by your pre-written fate. If we are doomed then we were meant to fail from the start. It's difficult to comprehend why and how, but it is like it is. You may experience some serious blessings throughout your life if you persevere and remain steadfast during times of hardship and that will be your sign of God.
Thanks for my words and I hope they make any sense.
God bless you.
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Salaam,
As I have written before in my posts, there is an overwhelming amount of proof that there is a Maker of this Universe. It would be highly illogical that the Universe would explode into existence all by itself. There has to be a higher intelligence behind it and which is not bound to our known natural laws and so on. There is much that is beyond our comprehension and we will never figure it out until perhaps after the Judgment Day, the day when everything will instead implode and cease to exist for another world to take over instead (if we believe in what is prophesied in the holy scriptures).
There is much we do not know and we will not know either, since it is a part of God's test. He will not show up physically until the end of days or show any physical proof of His existence until then. Although the World and the Universe itself it enormous evidence of the existence of a God for those who can perceive it.
We do not really know the background to the whole story, the purpose God had when he made our physical being and the Universe, but he did not create it just for entertainment. We do know that He felt like creating a creature from mud, maybe for His own joy, we do not know, but since we obviously failed some introductory tests He exposed us to, he let us begin a journey in a real trial. The life on this planet we live, planet Earth. I suppose we will have to live our lives and pass the test to know the original purpose of it all.
The sign of God you perceive through God's blessings and by being a good human and sometimes it seems to be affected by your pre-written fate. If we are doomed then we were meant to fail from the start. It's difficult to comprehend why and how, but it is like it is. You may experience some serious blessings throughout your life if you persevere and remain steadfast during times of hardship and that will be your sign of God.
Thanks for my words and I hope they make any sense.
God bless you.
A nice summary. Part of not comprehending all the reasons for what has happened can relate to trust in Allah. To understand that He is Most Wise and knows everything. I think the signs that Allah has placed in the world let us "know" Allah in one way. Each signs can be appreciated in a personal way and it's between the individual and Allah.
As we don't know all the reasons - I feel like we don't need to. Sometimes I really find that wisdom is better than knowledge. Both are important but with wisdom you can understand how to appreciate a situation etc without specific knowledge. In the Quran, I believe it mentions the gift of wisdom. Patience is another gift mentioned there as well.
I think we will all experience blessings and if we want to recognise them, we will truly appreciate them. Sometimes, the way things turn out themselves is amazing and the way it all fits together in a plan of sorts.
Your words certainly make sense, thank you for sharing them. I understand that you have left Iran because of problems there? I'm happy to see you safe and sound, and all praises to Allah for the Mercy He provides.
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So fingerprints are proof of both God and the uniqueness of human "individuality"? Then why do various other animals have fingerprints, and why is it nearly impossible to distinguish between say human fingerprints and koala fingerprints?
He will not show up physically until the end of days or show any physical proof of His existence until then. Although the World and the Universe itself it enormous evidence of the existence of a God for those who can perceive it.
There is no proof for God by design, but there is proof of his existence. Hmm...
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Hi Everyone,
Science is worried about what we can measure. And from that measurement = proof. What if you can't observe something directly and measure it? What does science do then? It tries to measure it indirectly but only via measurement. The problem with Allah is like trying to see the outside of a box from the inside. You can't measure the outside when you are inside. If everything is Allah then we are on the inside. We will never be able to see the outside while we are alive. What scientists can't measure, they argue can't exist.
Religion is about the heart.
Science is about the brain.Sometimes the two cross paths. Religion can embrace science as Allah tells us to. That way we see his marvels. However Science has a difficult time embracing religion as it is very difficult to explain analytically.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Peace. JewishDude.
Science is worried about what we can measure. And from that measurement = proof. What if you can't observe something directly and measure it? What does science do then? It tries to measure it indirectly but only via measurement. The problem with Allah is like trying to see the outside of a box from the inside. You can't measure the outside when you are inside. If everything is Allah then we are on the inside. We will never be able to see the outside while we are alive. What scientists can't measure, they argue can't exist.
Religion is about the heart.
Science is about the brain.Sometimes the two cross paths. Religion can embrace science as Allah tells us to. That way we see his marvels. However Science has a difficult time embracing religion as it is very difficult to explain analytically.
This is only partially true. Your statement implies that we are 'inside' Allah, conceptualizing him as the Universe, or perhaps as something that exceeds the Universe but still interpenetrates it, etc. However, the quran doesn't paint this type of picture of Allah, and neither does the bible. Rather, it appears to depict God as a type of anthropomorphic figure who possesses all knowledge and power; in some cases, it actually identifies him as a celestial 'person' (being), with emotions, attributes and physical characteristics. That's the issue when viewed from a scientific perspective.
Many, if not most, scientists see the greatest scope of 'divinity' (if you choose to identify it as such) in the Universe as a whole. Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, refers to pantheism as "sexed-up atheism". And, for the most part, he's absolutely correct!
Science and religion are ultimately incompatible, at least from my perspective. It's not only about science rejecting concepts of religion, but it's also about religious groups embracing science. Most fundamentalist Christian groups adamantly reject scientific ideals, especially as it relates to the 'origin' of the Universe and the generation of species. Many of them have difficulty embracing scopes of biology (species creation vs. evolution via natural selection); geology (age of the earth, e.g. 6 thousand years vs. 4.6 billion years); cosmology (spacial creation "due to the word 'be'" vs. an nuclear-atomic-based explosion); and nearly every other science as well. They don't agree at all, and due to religiously-based enforced ideological dependencies upon ancient "holy" texts, they probably never will.
The quran encourages people to accept science. However, unfortunately, many Muslims don't, which is why they reject a lot of the same scientific ideals that fundamentalist Christians do. In addition, there are even certain Islamic 'scholars' and 'imams' who still claim that the Earth is flat (and no, I'm not making this up)! http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=g84g2KJcUV0
With people thinking like this, how can religion and science ever agree? Science is about examining the natural world and arriving at the 'truth', through reason and experimentation. Religion is about 'feeling' that you already have the truth and rejecting anything that conflicts with it. That makes them, among other things, totally incompatible and irreconcilable.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Hi Ahmad,
My analogy of the box is just that... an analogy. I don't try and say exactly what Allah is. I just wanted to give people a frame of reference. You don't know what type of building you are in if you are in a windowless room. You can conjecture but you will not be able to infer "truth" from this situation. Our "room" with science is our 5 senses. We must make all inferences based on these. What if there is more that our 5 senses can't pick up? Science can't conjecture about that.
I think science and religion can work together. I have elaborated on this in other posts. Science shows us the wonder of the Universe and allows us to see the works of Allah even closer. I think the media makes people think the two are incompatible. I am a scientist (at a research university in the US) and I know lots of other scientists who are very religious. They see no problem with the two. Other people with an agenda (athiests) want us to believe there is a problem.
Just my crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
I'd say like this.... science and religion are many times incompatible, but it depends on what particular detail of that discipline of science or religion we are talking about.
A crucial thing people miss, both "scientists" and "religionists" is that reality is reality. And this is NOT the issue of measurable vs non-measurable. Non-measurable doesn't mean false. Especially scientists should and would agree to this. So, what do I mean by this? Well, if we observe a certain level or aspect of reality, then this is reality. For exampe, if science discovers X, then religion must accept this X, otherwise we cannot take this religion, or aspect/part of religion, seriously. Reality is reality. For a religion to be sensible, it has to accept each and every fact that is discovered using the methods of science, and cannot contradict it... with some caution of course, since even science disproves and upgrades itself... so we can never know entirely for sure even about the things we figure out through the discplinies of science.
Scientists should not claim it is proven that there is no God, because this is no less baseless than many stories from religions... they can only say that there is currently no scientific proof of that which we understand God as through the religions.
The issue as I see it, is actually with religion. This is perhaps a bit extreme point of view, but not very unreasonable still. I think we should base our world view on that which we observe, and the scientific method is a great part of that. If we then are able to naturally entertain the idea of a God, then this concept of God must necessarily agree with what we observe, otherwise it would become just mythology.
I do understand that many people cannot entertain the idea of God, and they consequently believe there is no need for a God, and I also think that the issue of God or not-God is not a matter that is important for science. Science doesn't depend on believing in God. Science is based on observations of s.c. natural phenomenon. God is beyond that. But important to note is that believing in God does NOT deny any part of science.. actually, science is an marvellous way to learn about God's creation. Also, science is NOT denying God. If science would disprove something as not real, then that cannot be God, by definition. In this way, God and science are never in contradiction, by definition. This is the real issue... how we define and view God... our definition of God. This is turn does NOT mean we must reduce God to a set of measurable natural phenomenon... because that would just be a renaming of already knows parts of reality, whether it is energy, or the entire universe.
I do agree that science and religion many times are incompatible. But so are God and religion! An image or concept of God on one side, and science on the other side, cannot contradict eachother, by definition. So like I said... the problem of science vs religions arises from i) unrealistic images of God, ii) blind faith in unrealistic or disproven doctrine of religion. Now, 'unrealistic' is not the same as un-seen or un-measurable. But un-seen or un-measurable things, if we claim we have experienced them, must of course not contradict science, whether they can be proven/disproven or not.
God is not equal to Religion! Equating these is at the core of the eternal debate science vs religion.
Peace to all!
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Peace, JewishDude.
My analogy of the box is just that... an analogy. I don't try and say exactly what Allah is. I just wanted to give people a frame of reference. You don't know what type of building you are in if you are in a windowless room. You can conjecture but you will not be able to infer "truth" from this situation. Our "room" with science is our 5 senses. We must make all inferences based on these. What if there is more that our 5 senses can't pick up? Science can't conjecture about that.
I understand your position, but this characterizes the same ideologies that I discussed... You mentioned that 'science can't conjecture about that', and you're correct. However, why isn't religion held to this same standard? Why is it that, although science is forbidden from developing 'guesses' concerning the world around us, religion is free to do so? You're correct in saying that we can't know what type of building we're in if we're confined to a windowless room. Yet, the problem, which ultimately results in the incompatibility of the two subjects, is that religion does claim to know what type of building we're in, and they even take it a step further - they claim that a man they've never met, apparently named "God", singlehandedly constructed this building specifically for the people confined in the room; they claim that he built many other rooms inside this building as well, which they've never personally seen; they allege fantastic stories about this man's son coming to the building and performing all types of wonderous acts, none of which we've ever seen duplicated (outside of magic tricks and illusions); etc. How are we supposed to take this?
I think science and religion can work together. I have elaborated on this in other posts. Science shows us the wonder of the Universe and allows us to see the works of Allah even closer. I think the media makes people think the two are incompatible. I am a scientist (at a research university in the US) and I know lots of other scientists who are very religious. They see no problem with the two. Other people with an agenda (athiests) want us to believe there is a problem.
My argument was never that science and religion can't work together; it's that they don't work together. Like I said, science is about uncovering the truth. Religion, on the other hand, is about firmly believing that you already have the truth and rejecting anything that conflicts with your idea of what 'truth' is... I'm also a scientist, and I don't know any religious scientists at all. Granted, I know a few who say that they 'think there might possibly be something else out there', but the great majority of them are atheists (which, in my view, includes naturalists and pantheists) and agnostics, especially in my field of biology. Why? Because the more you learn about the natural world, the more you realize how 'chaotic' it actually is, and this makes you wonder How could an omniscient and omnipotent god have created a world in this much disarray? Does the world around us point to creation by an all-wise being, or is it consistent with evolutionary adaptation?
Most people scrutinize every world religion other than their own...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Most people scrutinize every world religion other than their own...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Ahmad,
You are right in a lot of things you are talking about. Lots of "believers" are not being rational.
I hope you get your faith back though, I can see you are doubting God, unless I am wrong and your goal is something else with your discussion. Being intelligent, scientist and not exposed to God's miracles, could probably render someone doubtful. Being intelligent usually means requiring intelligent input bravo
Asking is quite easy, answering can be more difficult brickwall
God bless you
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Forget intelligence... honest and sincere openness is what is required. I've seen brilliant people, i.e. successful people with very high IQ, on every side... whether it be atheism or traditional sunnism... and intelligence in one area doesn't rule out that the same capacity for intelligence is totally shut off or unused in other areas, such as religion. Many intelligent religious people believe in the most outrageous fairytales, like the pegasus, or at least accept them to be plausible and possible in unconscious fear of questioning the religion that makes up most of their identity (which is why not questioning is tolerated).
(This post was not in reference to any one person of this thread or forum!)
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Salaam zulf,
True, and it depends on how we define intelligence and an intelligent person too.
God bless
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Here is a thought....
The scientific method requires proof and hence takes a skeptics perspective. Religion is gives hope and hence takes an optimists perspective.
Does this seem reasonable???
Some more crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Peace everyone,
Deen is a matter of faith given to those who ask or are inspired, There are those who use science as a
reason or excuse not to believe in God simply because they lack humility and are arrogant. Many people
turn to science as a substitute belief system because man is a believer in something, it is our nature.
Also some believe in science blindly then accuse religious folks of the same. For instance, stephan hawking
was wrong about his theory of black holes in the seventies but many scientist and non-scientist alike
believed him blindly! Same for the many scientific "theories" about the universe, each theory has its
adherants, or sects/group of believers without proof, waiting for their "savior" to be proven right in the
future.To each his god and in the end we will find out
There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is now distinct from the wrong way.
Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that
never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.GOD is Lord of those who believe; He leads them out of darkness into the light. As for those
who disbelieve, their lords are their idols; they lead them out of the light into darkness?these will be
the dwellers of Hell; they abide in it forever.Peace