Sign of God
-
I really like some of the analogies on this thread. I would say that religion, faith and acceptance of God's reality, all relate to our soul and sense of inner peace. We can't quantify and measure a lot of things, and I don't think we need to. Our human experience transcends scientific ways of understanding the world. As Islam describes our purpose as worship/sincerity/devotion to Allah, our Creator, this speaks to our everyday, practical yet also spiritual experience.
-
Trying to prove God through "science" is like trying to prove the sentiment of guilt in a person, with a baking thermometer.
"Ha ha", I must say this made me laugh a little. Thanks for the humor.
God bless you for having humor (and all the other stuff)
-
Here is a thought....
The scientific method requires proof and hence takes a skeptics perspective. Religion is gives hope and hence takes an optimists perspective.
Does this seem reasonable???
Some more crazy thoughts...
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceSalaam,
Well, the faith in religion hopefully makes one an optimist, at least after a while once one has received their response from God through security and contentment. But I guess I know what you are getting at, you mean it takes an optimist to embrace religion fully perhaps. Now when I think of it I am almost sure this is what you mean.
If you have a skeptical approach it will probably cause you to have a hard time embracing religion since it requires a lot of patience and waiting for God to come around. God will shine with absence in a new believer's life, in most cases, and it will make take almost a "blind" optimist to get all the way on a straight path. Sometimes God blesses a man with belief without this person's effort, but will later remove the blessing turning the new uncertain believer into a disbeliever, which is also warned about in the Quran.
It takes that a believing man or woman can see the few white sheep among the jungle of black sheep in this crazy religious world, if you know what I am trying to get at. Despite the fact that we may be lacking live Messengers, we can live in the memories of past Messengers through the scriptures and God's inspiration, and hence become Believers regardless.
To be honest, we may still require proof to be certain believers, but it takes that we are patient and steadfast for a long period of time without being skeptical. I cannot say that I did not require proof myself, I decided, through reason and logic that there must be a Creator those years ago and I did not give up even if I got nothing (from God) for years. There was no physical evidence, no reliable research to go on to back up my choice, but I stubbornly decided that it is completely "normal" to have this believer optimist perspective, and now an atheist will surely have a hard time convincing me to stop believing even with good arguments. I have been opposed by people who wanted to make me return to being a sensible everyday atheist, but I persevered.
I used to live among people who would probably never embrace religion, and I had no inspiration that way, from the beginning all I had was a dusty bible and some words about religion from a corrupt church. I lived a faithless life for years and I drank heavily, stole, sometimes took some light recreational drugs, was with women outside marriage, and other things I will not tell you about here, but you see me now, I am blessed and it may be due to the things I mentioned earlier in this post. I shaped up, I stopped drinking, stopped doing other bad things, and a year later I met a believing woman entirely coincidentally, and I was promoted at work. Changing faith I had been doing for a very long time, but it was that final move I did just a few years ago that gave that starting point on my religious career.
My case shows you God can show His grace to even the most unlikely folks around you. Of course it was already pre-written that I would follow this destiny, but one should never be prejudiced. Now my duty does no longer seem to be to convince myself but others.
The religious path has been at several milestones, New Age, Jehova's Witnesses, Islam, but now I am finally at being simply a Believer realized you should divide your religion into sects.
I have heard people talk about Muhammad being a Pagan before God guided him and I am sure Muhammad could have been doing other unrighteous things as well just like me. It does not matter what you have done earlier in your life if you decide you change and/or God decides to bless you, you will turn into a devout believer if you just fight for it.
It is probably the worst among you who turn out to be the best believers. Never lose faith for what you have done, keep fighting.
God bless you all with certainty
p.s. by the way, I used to be lying quite a lot too in the past, mostly due to fear, but that was also among the changes I promised myself, and also God after a while d.s.
-
Peace, JewishDude.
The scientific method requires proof and hence takes a skeptics perspective. Religion is gives hope and hence takes an optimists perspective.
Does this seem reasonable???
You're absolutely correct in stating this - religion is designed to give "hope", while science is designed to uncover "truth". They're not the same, and they can even, at times, be contradictory, as the truth isn't always 'cookies and milk'... In any case, what appears to pacify people isn't always true. Of course, I'm not going to knock people's perspective if they want to accept what makes them 'feel good'; however, it's arrogant at best to assume that, just because it makes them 'feel good', it must be recognized as undoubtedly true.
Again, I don't have an issue with anybody believing in whatever they want to believe in. Hell, if people want to believe that Jesus flew into 'heaven' in front of a crowd of people, or that Muhammad was somehow elevated to the 'seventh heaven' on the back of a winged horse (unicorn?) so that he could meet God and all the prophets, then that's on them. As there's apparently 'no compulsion' with regard to religious ideals and practices (Q. 2256), I'm also not going to be the person to judge one's beliefs if he or she chooses to accept them... However, again, just because this person accepts those ideologies as 'subjectively' true, that does NOT make those concepts objectively true, and that's my primary issue with it. It's still a "belief" (faith, conjecture, assumption), regardless of how you slice it.
Hypocrisy is on the rise. Religious zealots and fundamentalists are saying, "Science is wrong; the quran/bible is right!" They're saying, "Evidence doesn't amount to anything if it disagrees with ." They're asserting, "Scientists (particularly atheistic ones) are arrogant because they don't believe in the wisdom of ." When they can't objectively validate their beliefs, they cite quranic references like, "You have your religion (or god), and I have mine," and "There's no compulsion in religion"; but this doesn't stop them from asserting that their (merciful? compassionate? loving? forgiving?) god is planning to throw all unbelievers into an eternal, fiery hell to burn indefinitely, where he will chain them to a seventy-cubit chain and force the residents there to eat poisonous thorns and drink scorching-hot water, all while the flames burn off parts of their bodies and roast them through-and-through... Pretty reasonable, right?
I choose to stick with the facts. When fundamentalists cease claiming that their views are 'objectively' true, and when they admit that they merely believe (or, better yet, have 'hope' in those things and they don't actually know them to be true, then there will be no reason to test their views against science and reason. They should consider their own religious views as "something that may or may not be true, but it makes me feel good" - not as something that's undeniably true, in which anyone disputing it must be 'stupid', 'blind' and 'arrogant', deserving to be thrown into a fiery blaze.
Do you disagree?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Salaam Ahmad Bilal,
No one is guilty until proven otherwise, God will judge between us (in my belief). Treat everyone with respect. It is up to God to decide who is good or bad. It is arrogant to believe you are absolutely the one who is right. Let people have their faith and have your own. Just engage them if they engage you, in self-defense, and cease if they put up the white flag.
Most people do not follow the directions pointed out in the scriptures, but that is their problem. You cannot force someone to have your belief, they must choose themselves.
I hope this makes sense Ahmad, I hope I did not just state the obvious. What you said in your post is basically true, religious zealots are careless about other human lives just because of their hypocritical belief system.
I do not know what your belief on this is, but I think barely no one, of not no one, can interpret the Quran accurately as it was meant to be understood those 1400 years ago or whenever in ancient time it was written. So few people are 100% sure whatever God meant, especially not the religious zealots that include some odd hadiths with pretty harsh measures included in them. Sometimes things are interpreted the way you want to understand it too.
Calling someone names or be aggressive against someone is incompatible with the Quran.
God bless you
-
Peace, Man of Faith.
No one is guilty until proven otherwise, God will judge between us (in my belief). Treat everyone with respect. It is up to God to decide who is good or bad. It is arrogant to believe you are absolutely the one who is right. Let people have their faith and have your own. Just engage them if they engage you, in self-defense, and cease if they put up the white flag.
I completely agree. However, as you probably know, if everyone thought of things like this, then there would be no fundamentalists and extremists, declaring that their beliefs are "objectively" true, and that whoever disagrees with those beliefs is an infidel (or whatever other derogatory names used to fill in the blank), destined to burn in hell for an eternity. That's why science, logic, and rational thinking are important, especially when it comes to scrutinizing religious beliefs.
Most people do not follow the directions pointed out in the scriptures, but that is their problem. You cannot force someone to have your belief, they must choose themselves.
That's not entirely true. The problem is people's desire to carefully scrutinize everyone else's beliefs, but not their own. The problem is blind devotion to any religious scripture, to the extent of asserting that other people's "scriptures" and beliefs are wrong, since they may be incompatible with the quran, bible, etc. The problem is the literal interpretation of these "scriptures", to the point that fundamentalists assert that everyone who doesn't believe in those books deserves to be killed and tortured (after death) for an indefinite period of time... And, if you really can't force someone to adopt your beliefs, then Islam wouldn't have become as prominent as it became throughout Africa and the Arabian peninsula (via 'spreading religion with the sword', Christianity wouldn't have become as popular as it became throughout Europe and the rest of the world (via torturing and killing all nonbelievers), etc. In reality, religion has been forced on people for centuries, and it's still being forced on people - but now, rather than murdering all adults who dispute the authority of these religious beliefs and traditions, people indoctrinate their children into these religious groups and teach them that everyone who believes (and teaches) contrary to those beliefs is destined for the 'wrath' of their merciful gods.
I do not know what your belief on this is, but I think barely no one, of not no one, can interpret the Quran accurately as it was meant to be understood those 1400 years ago or whenever in ancient time it was written. So few people are 100% sure whatever God meant, especially not the religious zealots that include some odd hadiths with pretty harsh measures included in them. Sometimes things are interpreted the way you want to understand it too.
If this is the case, then why should we follow the quran at all? If we can't determine what it's actually saying, then how can we claim to be going in the right direction, in accordance with what the 'author' wanted?
Here's an objective position, based on a derivative ideology of Islam propagated throughout the United States. In the early 1930s, a man named Wallace Fard Muhammad (or "Prophet W.D. Fard" began promoting this interpretation of Islam in Detroit, Michigan. One of his core teachings was that, among other things, Muslims would receive a 'reward' for slaying four "devils" and beheading them. And, coincidentally, one of his primary teachings was that the 'white' man (e.g. Caucasian, European, etc.) was the "devil". In 1932, one of his followers took this idea exceptionally literally, and he took it upon himself to brutally murder four people. Later, when asked about this doctrine and behavior, especially when viewed from the standpoint of traditional Islam, Mr. Fard declared that this psychopathic man merely 'misinterpreted' his ideologies - according to Fard, his teachings weren't about physically killing people; the teaching was about murdering the "devils" inside, or the negative aspects of yourself.
Now, whether the teaching was about literally killing "devils" (unbelievers, Europeans, or whatever) is open to interpretation. We don't actually know what Mr. Fard meant when he initially authored the doctrine of his organization, which later became known as the Nation of Islam. We only know what he said later, after the fact. Otherwise, we only know what the words say...
The relevance? This is the consequence of fundamentalist theology! The teachings of Mr. Fard aren't much different from the quranic doctrines concerning 'slaying unbelievers wherever you find them'. Like the student of Mr. Fard, many traditional Muslims interpret those quranic passages literally, and it leads them to brutally torture and kill others who disagree with their ideologies... Did Allah (or Muhammad) "mean" for it to be interpreted in this way? We don't know; again, this concept is open to interpretation. We only know what the book says, and it clearly says to slay the idolators (Q. 95), chop of their heads and fingers (Q. 812), occupy their lands (Q. 2144), imprison them (Q. 473, 4), and commit many other atrocities!
If we wouldn't accept the teachings of Mr. Fard concerning 'murdering devils', then why should we accept the teachings of the quran?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Salaam,
Does the Quran teach this? Nooo
In that case, misinterpretation through wishful thinking.
God bless you
-
Peace, Man of Faith.
Does the Quran teach this? Nooo
In that case, misinterpretation through wishful thinking.
Does the quran teach what? I already provided a reference to what the quran says...
We only know what the book says, and it clearly says to slay the idolators (Q. 95), chop of their heads and fingers (Q. 812), occupy their lands (Q. 2144), imprison them (Q. 473, 4), and commit many other atrocities!
And, if you're talking about in comparison to the concept taught by Mr. Fard in his Islamic school of thought, those concepts discussed in the quran are a lot more heinous than merely talking about beheading "devils" - the quran actually says this and much, much worse! At least Mr. Fard proposed the idea that, once those people were killed, there was no coming back for them; they were gone forever. The quran, on the other hand, says that Allah (God) will bring those 'guilty' victims of murder back from the dead, perhaps in a 'spiritual' body of some sort (depending on your interpretation), and viciously torture them for an eternity! According to most Islamic authorities, the torture of hell will be so horrendous that, although the quran discusses it in 'allegorical' ways, there's no way to sufficiently compare it to anything on Earth; it will be so intensely horrible and painful that we can't even fathom in our minds how utterly terrible it will actually be.
Yet, your concern is whether or not Fard taught the teachings of the quran? Tell me, sir - which set of teachings sound better to you? Both sets sound pretty horrible to me, but that's just my perspective. When viewed beside each other, though, there's literally no comparison. One book advises its small (but growing) organization of fundamentalist Muslims to kill four people. The other book commands its followers, which are generally composed of about 1/3 of the planet's population, to torture and kill millions (or even billions) of "infidels"; and then, after the 'righteous believers' are finished torturing and killing these infidels, God will resurrect them so that he can do some additional torturing of his own, this time more heinous and gruesome than can even be imagined. Oh, and did I mention that, when God does it for the second group, he plans on torturing those infidels forever? Yes, that's correct - they get the Energizer Bunny treatment the torture just keeps going and going and going and going, etc.
What do you think? How is the quran any better than the book written by Mr. Fard, which he claims was also authored by Allah?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Salaam Ahmad,
Sorry, I do not interpret/ understand the Quran this way. No point arguing what I do not believe is true.
Either the Quran is contradicting itself, or your interpretation is faulty, or I am completely misguided. This is not the religion I embraced that you describe, if that is so, then the Quran is either corrupted or misinterpreted.
If the main idea behind Islam is a religion of peace, then your description makes it very evil and oppressive,quite the opposite of what the words wishes to describe it.
Note that I was a Believer before I stumbled upon the Quran and I was a Believer even if I knew the Bible had to be severely corrupted because of the nonsense I found when I read it. The least nonsense of them two I found in the Quran, but some gross elements I discovered happened to be due to misinterpretations in the case of the Quran.
If now the corrections of the gross elements happen to be due to wishful thinking, then even the Quran is distorted, but I will remain a Believer. It is not the scriptures that make me a Believer, it is that I perceive God?s presence in my life.
Like I hope you have understood, Ahmad Bilal, I try to be a quite rational and logical man, and I do not disregard your criticism of the Quran. It will not move my standing regarding God or the three basic commandments to believe in God, believe in eternal life and be righteous, it is probably the main idea of all present world religions too. I am not narrowing myself down to simply the traditional Islam, I am following God's religion, no matter the name of the religion.
Sometimes it is good that people like you exist, Ahmad, because you question everything and raise awareness of issues that are either due to misinterpretation, distortion or that the source is utterly fake.
I respect you, brother, no matter if you are a believer or non-Believer. I do not judge you and I do not affect your destiny. It would be sinful for me to wish you harm and I treat you as anyone else. Of course I respond accordingly if you humiliate me or mock me or anything similarly, but I respect you and I try to control myself if you provoke frustration in me. It is what my religion tells me to, to be peaceful.
I think, or hope, that my behavior is much better than many atheists, or other Believers. Otherwise I would be a bad Believer.
Please, dear Ahmad, do not put me in a stereotypical category for having my faith, as I do with you. Having belief in non-existence of a god is a faith too.
Peace
Salaam Ahmad,
Sorry, I do not interpret/ understand the Quran this way. No point arguing what I do not believe is true.
Either the Quran is contradicting itself, or your interpretation is faulty, or I am completely misguided. This is not the religion I embraced that you describe, if that is so, then the Quran is either corrupted or misinterpreted.
If the main idea behind Islam is a religion of peace, then your description makes it very evil and oppressive,quite the opposite of what the words wishes to describe it.
Note that I was a Believer before I stumbled upon the Quran and I was a Believer even if I knew the Bible had to be severely corrupted because of the nonsense I found when I read it. The least nonsense of them two I found in the Quran, but some gross elements I discovered happened to be due to misinterpretations in the case of the Quran.
If now the corrections of the gross elements happen to be due to wishful thinking, then even the Quran is distorted, but I will remain a Believer. It is not the scriptures that make me a Believer, it is that I perceive God?s presence in my life.
Like I hope you have understood, Ahmad Bilal, I try to be a quite rational and logical man, and I do not disregard your criticism of the Quran. It will not move my standing regarding God or the three basic commandments to believe in God, believe in eternal life and be righteous, it is probably the main idea of all present world religions too. I am not narrowing myself down to simply the traditional Islam, I am following God's religion, no matter the name of the religion.
Sometimes it is good that people like you exist, Ahmad, because you question everything and raise awareness of issues that are either due to misinterpretation, distortion or that the source is utterly fake.
I respect you, brother, no matter if you are a believer or non-Believer. I do not judge you and I do not affect your destiny. It would be sinful for me to wish you harm and I treat you as anyone else. Of course I respond accordingly if you humiliate me or mock me or anything similarly, but I respect you and I try to control myself if you provoke frustration in me. It is what my religion tells me to, to be peaceful.
I think, or hope, that my behavior is much better than many atheists, or other Believers. Otherwise I would be a bad Believer.
Please, dear Ahmad, do not put me in a stereotypical category for having my faith, as I do with you. Having belief in non-existence of a god is a faith too.
Peace
May God, or what you believe in, bless you
-
Peace, Man of Faith.
Does the quran teach what? I already provided a reference to what the quran says...
And, if you're talking about in comparison to the concept taught by Mr. Fard in his Islamic school of thought, those concepts discussed in the quran are a lot more heinous than merely talking about beheading "devils" - the quran actually says this and much, much worse! At least Mr. Fard proposed the idea that, once those people were killed, there was no coming back for them; they were gone forever. The quran, on the other hand, says that Allah (God) will bring those 'guilty' victims of murder back from the dead, perhaps in a 'spiritual' body of some sort (depending on your interpretation), and viciously torture them for an eternity! According to most Islamic authorities, the torture of hell will be so horrendous that, although the quran discusses it in 'allegorical' ways, there's no way to sufficiently compare it to anything on Earth; it will be so intensely horrible and painful that we can't even fathom in our minds how utterly terrible it will actually be.
Yet, your concern is whether or not Fard taught the teachings of the quran? Tell me, sir - which set of teachings sound better to you? Both sets sound pretty horrible to me, but that's just my perspective. When viewed beside each other, though, there's literally no comparison. One book advises its small (but growing) organization of fundamentalist Muslims to kill four people. The other book commands its followers, which are generally composed of about 1/3 of the planet's population, to torture and kill millions (or even billions) of "infidels"; and then, after the 'righteous believers' are finished torturing and killing these infidels, God will resurrect them so that he can do some additional torturing of his own, this time more heinous and gruesome than can even be imagined. Oh, and did I mention that, when God does it for the second group, he plans on torturing those infidels forever? Yes, that's correct - they get the Energizer Bunny treatment the torture just keeps going and going and going and going, etc.
What do you think? How is the quran any better than the book written by Mr. Fard, which he claims was also authored by Allah?
Peace,
Ahmad
Brother Salaam,
Quran translations are supposed to provide "an authentic point of reference from which to examine the biased stereotypes of Islam to which Westerners are habitually exposed." However, unfortunately, most of these translations have not fulfilled this function. They either fail to give a precise image of Islam, or give a negative distorted one, says Thomas Cleary, a non-Muslim Quran translator. So, lets try to decode the verse 9;5 as it should be.
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 95
Some words in Quran have more than one meaning depending upon how they are used. When we encounter a multi-meaning word, we select the proper meaning according to the context, forms, and common sense.
- Idolaters = Mushrikeens = one who associates others (people, words. things) with Allah, as explained in verse below
He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back . 4213
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. .....3103According to 4213
- the religion is the same what was enjoined on Noah, what has been revealed to us. And to Abraham and Moses and Jesus.
- And to establish religion and not be Divided in the religion.
- But it is difficult for those who associate others with Allah .
According to the 42;13 religion is same "Islam" from Noah onward and the follower of the Islam has been divided into sects, and these sects Associate others with Allah including saints, shrines, graves, taweez etc. Further confirmation in 3103 where Allah ask people that not to be divided. And ayat below explains why people divided into sects.
Mankind is one single nation (psychologically), and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.2213
Naafs= psyche, self
And when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf . So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. That is best for you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. 254
According to the translation Moses ask his people to "Kill themselves first and than ask for repentance" it does not make any sense. lets replace Kill to Fight "Qatal" and yourself to your psyche "Nafus".
And when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged your psyches/nafoos by your taking of the calf . So repent to your Creator and fight/kill with your psyche/yourselves. That is best for you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. 254
Why there is no physical killing because
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. 352
To clarify psychological killing further
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists/mushrakeen wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 95
- Kill the Mushrakeen, than
- Capture them
- besiege them
Again, it does not make sense to capture dead people and ask them to repent and to pray as the verse discuss in the last part.
How can we associate others with Allah
Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. 733
A common practice of current day Muslim world that they associate things with Allah by hearsay or according to their cultural belief, you can find ample examples of this practice on this forum people justifying Allah with their own ideology without consulting Allah (Quran)/quoting Allah's ayats/verses accordingly.
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. 279
The practice of a Messenger
O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people. 567
Therefore, it is our duty to read the book, understand it and proclaim it to people.
Indeed, He who imposed (farada) upon you the Qur'an will take you back to a place of return. Say, "My Lord is most knowing of who brings guidance and who is in clear error."2825
It should be noted that there are around 80,000 words in the Quran but the actual words are only around 2000. In principle, if you take out the repeated words, the total number of words in Quran may well be less than 2000. Allah has revealed His book which contains so few words. Accordingly, if a reader decides to learn only 10 new words everyday, he can understand the basic message of the Quran within a period of seven months! So it is indeed very easy to understand the Quran, provided one is willing to learn it.
And We have certainly made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember? 5414
Peace.
-
Peace, Awaal_Muslim.
I apologize for the extended delay in responding to your post... I'm not understanding the full basis of your post. Is there another way we should interpret the passage, which seemingly instruct people to 'kill the idolators'?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace Ahmad,
Those verses must be misunderstood somehow. As far as my intuition tells it is since they oppress you and as self-defense. But I respect if you do not accept Quran as something from God.
Edit The verse you highlighted is interesting as it sounds contradictory to the general Message of the Quran, I mean a religion of peace. You do not think it has to do with the interpretation? You do not think this verse should be executed "if" parameter? If, for example, they act oppressive and violent?
Anyway, brother Ahmad, you know I regard Quran as a Message from God, but true Faith is not bound to a book, as you can see through my explanation in the other thread I wrote about religions. True Faith is in the heart and actions, the Karma.
And remember this book was written about 1400 years ago, do you not think the interpretation has become biased by religious zealots since then? You remember we are not agreeing whether verse 128 and 129 in chapter 9 were inserted later.
I will research more into this "contradictory" verse and see if I can find any explanation. Have you checked the context?
God bless you
-
Peace Ahmad,
I took a look at the context, which includes parts of chapter 8 and 9, and it seems like this was meant during a war situation, but because of a holy period they were agreeing on no violence. After 4 months the truce was over and they can fight again, unless the opponents yield or say they will not fight and rather seek your protection so that he can hear about God.
It is obvious by the context that is during a war situation, dear brother, and it is an encouragement to stand up for your rights.
The Quran tells you not to transgress if an opponent gives up or wants peace.
Please, do read the whole context carefully and with a less critical eye than usual and see that it does not tell a Believer to kill a disbeliever without provocation. If you read the verse without the context of the chapters, then surely you will interpret it as just kill them wherever you encounter them, but if you do as I said you will understand this is not the case.
The Quran has no prominent contradiction of any kind as far as I have understood. The main cause of contradiction is misinterpretation of the verses because of the age of the scripture and due to wishful thinking.
If you still want to compare this scripture with the one from that guy Mr. Fard then feel free to do so, but I do not. And my understanding is as I stated above.
I accept if you do not take the Quran as a divine scripture.
God bless you brother
-
Why do those who do not take the quran as a scripture from God always tend to choose the most negative or hateful interpretation of everything? Why aren't they just interested in the flora of different understandings and consider positive interpretations at least as valid as negative ones? Why this gravitation towards the negative? Is it due to the assume that the majority always interpret the quran correctly? Why this assumption? Why the assumption that the actual/real/original is the most negative? Smells like bias, and not like objectivity like it is often portrayed as. In general, I find the human being's attraction towards negativity quite interesting and typcal...
-
Peace zulf,
They want contradiction so that it is falsifiable. Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you see it, the Quran is just usually misinterpreted due to the age of the scripture, and that one takes verses out of context. Sometimes you have to take several pages into account before deciding the exact meaning.
Up to this day, the Quran seems to be the most intact religious book with apparent words of God. I am however not treating Quran as an idol, meaning I cannot think without it, but of course I refer back to it for Wisdom and Knowledge.
I enjoy reading religious books from other religions, lately I have been looking into Zoroastrianism and it seems to point back at the same God as in the Ibrahimic religions. There are some myths about Zoroastrianism, this religion has like other ones become exposed to human inventions. It is not polytheistic.
The Zoroastrians lost their religious book some many years ago, the burning of Persepolis may have been a factor and the Islamic conquest later on.
Ahmad Bilal is nicer than people here may think if you get to know him a little. He has a quite critical eye though, but his mind is sharp. He thinks logically and rationally, as one should do. He searches for an answer here like everyone else. I have an understanding people may have a problem with his bluntness though.
I see the Quran as the most accurate (un)distorted word of God available today. And despite any claims that it has weaknesses it is still the most worthy "reading" of them all.
God bless you
-
Peace All,
We must be careful not to point fingers at non-believers when we ourselves are
engaging in the negative conversation as well. There are many ayats that warn us
about the pointlessness of such arguments because the non-believers are not
interested in conversion to Islam but simply want to share their doubts. We have
to believe God who has revealed revelations about non-believers in the Quran.635, 7146, 1099-101, 1331, 2781, and many more and finally sura 109.
If one feels the need to convince the non-believer that God is who he says he is,
be prepared to be disappointed.Surely, those who do not believe in GOD's revelations, GOD does not guide
them. They have incurred a painful retribution.Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs,
then disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we
place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it (the Quran),
and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can
never ever be guided."a wise man and a fool were arguing in an alley when two friends happened to be
walking by and saw them, one of the friends asked the other, "which is the fool"
the other friend replied "I cannot tell the difference!I hope this is helpful
peace
-
Peace, Man of Faith.
It is obvious by the context that is during a war situation, dear brother, and it is an encouragement to stand up for your rights.
The Quran tells you not to transgress if an opponent gives up or wants peace.
Indeed, brother, I totally agree. I've read the Quran many times, and I know that this was referring to a wartime situation. My statement wasn't with regard to the Quran instructing Muslims to 'kill people'; rather, I was talking about the designation of these slain people AFTER death. Killing someone in self-defense may be necessary at times, in my opinion. However, the concept of these people being slain by the believers, and THEN being brought back to life y God and mercilessly tortured for an eternity, seems a bit extreme. That's all I was saying...
If you still want to compare this scripture with the one from that guy Mr. Fard then feel free to do so, but I do not. And my understanding is as I stated above.
For the record, I'm not saying that I agree with the notions suggested by Mr. Fard. If we look at the historical references for this, Fard actually stated that his words regarding that issue weren't meant to be taken literally; they were symbolic of the 'killing of the evil inside one's self', not killing other people. That's why I made the comparison. According to traditional Islamic clerics, the Quran is being LITERAL when it says that Allah (God) will bring unbelievers back to life and torture them indefinitely...
People alleged that Mr. Fard was being cruel and 'wicked' in (apparently) suggesting that his followers kill others. However, they believe that God is being 'righteous' when he suggests that people kill others, and that he'll bring them back to life to torture them for an eternity... Doesn't there seem to be a contradiction and double-standard here? Which person appears more 'righteous' and 'wicked' to you?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace Ahmad,
I agree with you here. And I doubt the meaning of Quran is to be taken literally but rather allegorically concerning many factors. They will probably not be tortured but instead living under poor conditions or something like that. I cannot claim to know unless I would be lying.
Religious zealots during all ages and all religions are over-interpreting the passages of their religious books and take everything too literally and without using their brains and rather through wishful thinking, and also to suit their political agenda. Religion drives a lot of people crazy, it is hazardous for them. Still it is, like I said before, about making peace within your own soul that is the point with Islam and some other "religions" I know.
Like you like to say about yourself regarding rationality. They should try to be more rational.
God bless you
-
science and religion are many times incompatible
Peace.
Some thoughts on this issue i wish to share. I think scientists discover the truths on phenomena of nature by putting aside God into the picture just to avoid controversy. From religionists. Also realizing that the construction of meanings on the phenomenon change with time due to new findings using more powerful instruments, which can debunk old theories and understanding.On the other hand religionists tend to stick to ancient meanings on phenomena thinking that this is what God meant it to be. Religionists like to think they are guardians of God's words.
Scientists always view things from the perspective of man. Whereas, religionist always view things from the perspective of God. They always say Gods says this and God says that.....
Science has its way (methodology) of coming to a conclusion on the things being studied. As time goes by, men of science discovered that the methodology, reasoning and approaches is natural to their common sense.
Using common sense, they start to question common beliefs such as the existence of God using "common science." For those people with common science who care to study the Quran as it should be studied using common sense (with sincerity) will discover and arrive at the same truth on any phenomenon.
Why? God created phenomena as ayats (words). James Watson and Francis Crick said that all phenomena contain bits, information. From the Quran we know that all creations are in the form of informational beings. Thus, we are here to discover the truth, the true meanings of things, be it the word of the Quran or the word (information) embedded in the phenomena of nature. All around us and within us are information of Truth created for us to study and ponder as signs of Reality and the ultimate Reality, God, distinct from other information which are symbols of falsehood, satanic words.
How can we differentiate these two? The words of the Quran (symbolic writing in Arabic) refers to the words in creations. The common science people will see that religion (behavioral system) and science (physical system) is a natural way for us to learn about Reality and to live in this world.
I must always remember to approach and see things from the human mind.