Sign of God
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Peace!
Nice post!On the other hand religionists tend to stick to ancient meanings on phenomena thinking that this is what God meant it to be. Religionists like to think they are guardians of God's words.
This is a problem IMHO. Letting one's mind get stuck in old habits, repeating old garbage. Also, anyone thinking they are the guardians of God's words is, IMO, highly arrogant, thinking that it needs protection and what not.
Scientists always view things from the perspective of man. Whereas, religionist always view things from the perspective of God. They always say Gods says this and God says that.....
I don't think religionists see things from the perspective of God at all. How could they ever? But I understand what you are saying. Actually, they just see things from their own perspective, that of their own ego and mind.
Science has its way (methodology) of coming to a conclusion on the things being studied. As time goes by, men of science discovered that the methodology, reasoning and approaches is natural to their common sense.
Science is great, as long as it doesn't claim things about stuff it cannot touch. When we use science as an excuse to say that there is not God in any form, then it is not science that speaks, but rather a person promoting his personal point of view which in turn is based on his capacity to see things...
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I don't think religionists see things from the perspective of God at all. How could they ever? But I understand what you are saying. Actually, they just see things from their own perspective, that of their own ego and mind.
Peace Zulf.
Thanks. You understand well about my notion of religionists. They elevated themselves as guardians of God's system and consequently create and try to maintain a mess sectarian community. The general public has no freedom to discover on their own about God's system and unable to speak freely about their discoveries. Fortunately, the internet creates a challenge to this authoritarian system. We are now becoming an online community of seekers and followers to God's system according to Quran. -
Peace!
Nice post!
Science is great, as long as it doesn't claim things about stuff it cannot touch. When we use science as an excuse to say that there is not God in any form, then it is not science that speaks, but rather a person promoting his personal point of view which in turn is based on his capacity to see things...Agreed,
There are those who use one of God's gifts which we call science,
(which is a tool to understand what God has created) to support their atheistic beliefs,
while maintaining those beliefs from the outset, this is an attempt to give their views
veracity and authority, some are fooled by this tactic, while some are not,
In the end they are simply non-believers dressed as critical thinkers.peace
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There are those who use one of God's gifts which we call science,
(which is a tool to understand what God has created) to support their atheistic beliefs,
while maintaining those beliefs from the outset, this is an attempt to give their views
veracity and authority, some are fooled by this tactic, while some are not,
In the end they are simply non-believers dressed as critical thinkers.Peace.
These people fail to acknowledge the limitless boundary of science, expanding quest for knowledge and changing philosophy and shifting of paradigm in science. -
Peace.
These people fail to acknowledge the limitless boundary of science, expanding quest for knowledge and changing philosophy and shifting of paradigm in science.Indeed.
However, I think we need to also try to see it from the point of view of an atheist. One can understand the reasoning, and an atheist's reasons are not faulty or ignorant... they are the only thing they can be. An atheist who is a scientist may be brilliant, but the point is that an atheist, as per my current understanding, works/lives/perceives/thinks purely and solely in the domain of the Intellect/Mind. The Intellect/Mind is a tool that can only be aware of the physical creation, which also includes energies and perhaps many things not yet measurable my science. BUT, the Intellect/Mind is not what we are. We are a soul/spirit/being/whatever which also has a Mind. But, if we only perceive with the mind/intellect/emotions then we can not fathom the existence of that which one may call God, because God, and other things, are out of the reach of the mind. The mind can only reason, think... not perceive. If we only perceive with our five senses, then we miss much. We only perceive with our physical body (5 senses), and reason about the impulses with the mind. But when the mind is let to dominate our perception, we cannot fathom the unseen. It is indeed a limited perspective. There is much to be said about the mind/intellect and it's role in the drama of life. The whole point is that we are not just our mind and what goes on in our heads...
Peace
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Peace,
It was my philosophies about creation over a decade ago which made me draw the conclusion there had to be a Creator and that was when I was pretty much an atheist myself. I merely believed in spirits. My early belief was a bit like Star Wars, which I have abandoned now (although I tend to still use it as an allegory / analogy).
I have always tried to work through logic and reason, but no matter what I did I could not rule out that a Creator must be involved in evolution. It would be like the universe just exploded into existence in exact measures to form planets and stars and other bodies. Some planets could even support life, which seem to require oxygen to survive (most of them at least).
And I wondered how the heck could coincidence know what planet Earth needed in terms of material and then in perfect measures give it to the planet. Add to that the intelligent design / formula of the endless amounts of specimens. The probability is non-existent in my logic and ability to reason.
And I am coming from an atheist family and I got by no means any indoctrination to believe in God but was rather discouraged in my youth. My world was more or less based on science. I have always loved science and everything with technology and I love science-fiction (as you may have noticed, I also like the character Spock in Star Trek with all his talk about logic).
I am no traditional religious man. I realized that there has to be a Creator entity which is not bound by time or space and cannot be measured since this entity lacks features which can be detected by scientific equipment and methods. If you are above all creation you can surely also hide from detection. Sign of God is instead all creation itself and the heavy philosophical thinking required to even ponder the question about what happened in the beginning and before the beginning.
Another thought I had was from that I was taught that energy does not disappear. But traditional atheist belief is that we are born and we die. But what happens to the energy of the soul? For surely something so advanced and conscious has to be a form of energy. This gave me the inspiration that life has to be eternal, just that it leads elsewhere when we "die".
Bingo. I was a Believer without even opened the Bible or Quran ever in my life. And this was perhaps 15 years ago (I am 31 today). I still refused to open the Bible (I did not even know about Quran at that time) for several years to come due to traditional Christianity and its lame Jesus fixation as I thought at the time, for how could anyone believe in the story that God's son could die like a human to save mankind. How could God be a human on Earth I thought.
I softened up a bit with time when I got in contact with good Christians that showed the corruption of the church and I finally was persuaded to give the Bible a chance. I could quite immediately see that it was filled with strange nonsense though, but I choose to follow the best and ignore the rest. This was about 7 years ago. I still was friend of those Christians and I liked to discuss the good things of the Bible.
God seemed to have been walking along the beach with me all the way here and for that I am forever in debt to Him.
After I stopped drinking a summer, 2008 I think, things accelerated and I got promoted at work, all went above expectations and in 2009 I met exactly the wife I had prayed for in 2007. A woman who can push me to do things because I often lack motivation without someone who does the coaching.
Well, some of you know my problems with her, but that was probably part of the Trial. God removed my affliction and did something (I do not know what still) to her and she stopped being a nightmare. Now we only have the usual marital problems only
Anyway, she made me purchase a Quran in the winter of 2009, a basic one translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali and I could immediately see that this scripture was from God. After that I have learned some basic Arabic and bought/downloaded better translations and begun heavy research on religion. I swore an oath to God to be a man of Faith last year and His servant and that He may use me in any way He likes.
Now I live a blessed life following His footsteps (sunnah) and carrying out His commands. I am provided with whatever I need and I am content with that.
This all for being an atheist in the beginning who just dared to use logic and reason in controversial ways. Nice, huh?
And excuse me for all my rambling. Hope it was to any use for someone. "Follow the best and ignore the rest".
God bless you all and may the Light guide you
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Peace, Man of Faith.
And I wondered how the heck could coincidence know what planet Earth needed in terms of material and then in perfect measures give it to the planet. Add to that the intelligent design / formula of the endless amounts of specimens. The probability is non-existent in my logic and ability to reason.
You need to study science, sir. Your assertion is totally outrageous... And who said anything about everything being due to "coincidence"? Scientists definitely don't claim this! Again, check out a science book, and perhaps your view will change.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Indeed.
However, I think we need to also try to see it from the point of view of an atheist. One can understand the reasoning, and an atheist's reasons are not faulty or ignorant... they are the only thing they can be. An atheist who is a scientist may be brilliant, but the point is that an atheist, as per my current understanding, works/lives/perceives/thinks purely and solely in the domain of the Intellect/Mind. The Intellect/Mind is a tool that can only be aware of the physical creation, which also includes energies and perhaps many things not yet measurable my science. BUT, the Intellect/Mind is not what we are. We are a soul/spirit/being/whatever which also has a Mind. But, if we only perceive with the mind/intellect/emotions then we can not fathom the existence of that which one may call God, because God, and other things, are out of the reach of the mind. The mind can only reason, think... not perceive. If we only perceive with our five senses, then we miss much. We only perceive with our physical body (5 senses), and reason about the impulses with the mind. But when the mind is let to dominate our perception, we cannot fathom the unseen. It is indeed a limited perspective. There is much to be said about the mind/intellect and it's role in the drama of life. The whole point is that we are not just our mind and what goes on in our heads...
Peace
Peace Zulf.
I was an atheist. We need to understand why they are in that position. Maybe, they brush aside the traditional conception of God. Maybe, they don't bother to explore God using their mind and experience. Maybe, they are just interested in things that can be observed by the senses.
They are scientists who ponder on this matter, the existence of a Creator. They termed God as the Supreme Being, the Supreme Intelligence, the Prime Mover and so on. Not all scientists are atheists. And not all atheists are scientists.
IMHO atheists are closer to the truth than the religionists. Scientists build their understanding through logic and reason and they observe and study mainly the God's ayaat in the universe. Their worldview is closer to the truth about systems and laws. They do and contribute many good things in this world. They make life better and prosperous. An ethical scientist who observe and obey the God's Laws governing the universe, such as an engineer, will construct a solid building.
A curious scientist would ask, who is behind this Intelligence, Laws governing the universe, Orderly pattern of things evolving and functioning, Is there a Creator of the universe, at least. And have they not study the Koran? If it is not from the God, they will surely discover many errors in it. The Koran is a challenge from the God to discover the Truth.
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Peace Ahmad,
I have read a lot of science, please do not be so arrogant. I happen to have a different view than yours, but I am very interested in science.
I drew the logical conclusion that someone who does not believe that any creator made the world then they must believe it was created by coincidence. I call that a non-existent probability, but if you believe something else I respect your opinion.
What is wrong in this logical conclusion if I may ask?
Of course, by scientific means we can neither prove or disprove it. Logical deduction however can make the answer simple.
It was not easy to reach this conclusion if you think so. I had to check a lot of studies before I made up my mind.
Your colorful reaction is outrageous, Sir.
And I have checked the theories of an eternal universe which has always been there, but that logic does not add up either. Somewhere there must be a beginning, unless the world is supernatural of course.
Unless you change your attitude I will avoid discussing with you. You searched for every tiny little error and it is all you could comment on when I sat there for hours writing a post. And you objected on something which is neither right or wrong but hypothetical thinking.
God bless you regardless
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Peace, Man of Faith.
I have read a lot of science, please do not be so arrogant. I happen to have a different view than yours, but I am very interested in science.
I wasn't intending to appear arrogant with my comment, and I apologize if that's the way you interpreted my statement. I was merely recommending that you check out some science books on this issue (e.g. cosmology). Modern cosmology actually states that none of the events that occurred during the formation of our (visible) universe were "coincidental" at all.
I drew the logical conclusion that someone who does not believe that any creator made the world then they must believe it was created by coincidence. I call that a non-existent probability, but if you believe something else I respect your opinion.
What is wrong in this logical conclusion if I may ask?
There's a lot wrong with this conclusion, sir. The lack of a creator deity doesn't equate 'coincidence'. The concept is "cause and effect". Specific instances occurred in the past that ultimately led us to where we are today. There was nothing 'coincidental' about it... Now, if we want to be realistic about this proposition, then the concept of a creator defies the logical idea of cause and effect, since religionists claim that God has no 'cause' - he was just 'always there', whatever that means...
Isn't this a logical determination too?
Of course, by scientific means we can neither prove or disprove it. Logical deduction however can make the answer simple.
Actually, science CAN prove this. If you examine the concept of a creator deity via the scientific method, though, it doesn't hold water. That's one of the reasons why the concept of gods and goddesses is ONLY substantiated on the basis of faith and belief, not facts... Have you ever looked into the "God question" scientifically? And, more importantly, have to investigated this idea logically?
And I have checked the theories of an eternal universe which has always been there, but that logic does not add up either. Somewhere there must be a beginning, unless the world is supernatural of course.
How did you come up with this idea? The world has to be "supernatural" in order to be eternal (static), even though science clearly says that prime energy can't be created or destroyed? Please elaborate on this.
Unless you change your attitude I will avoid discussing with you. You searched for every tiny little error and it is all you could comment on when I sat there for hours writing a post. And you objected on something which is neither right or wrong but hypothetical thinking.
That's not true, and I think you know that isn't a true statement... I'm not overly concerned with small errors, even though the tiniest of infractions make a big difference when identifying a 'perfect' god. But that's another subject. I thoroughly read your posts, and I respond to them in what I see as being the most suitable manner, without trying to be rude or condescending. If I offended you, I apologize. This just happens to be a particularly passionate subject for me.
Like I said before, I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they choose to believe. I know what it means to be a believer. I've been just about everything - a Christian, Jew (and Ebionitic Jew), Hindu, Muslim (e.g. Sunni, Shia, Salafi, Ahmadi, Hanafi), Submitter (e.g. student of the teachings of Dr. Rashad Khalifa), Buddhist, Taoist, Universalist, student of Rastafarianism, Thelemite, Satanist, Rosicrucian, deist, agnostic, and a few others too! And I'm still under the age of 30. I've been on many roads, and the study of all of those religious groups and orders have inevitably led me to where I am today.
If you'd rather not discuss the issue of theology anymore, then that's your prerogative. I'm merely stating my position on the matter. I'm not trying to convert (or deconvert) anyone to anything. I'm merely providing people with a different way to think about science and philosophy, and I think that's a good thing.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Man of Faith.
I wasn't intending to appear arrogant with my comment, and I apologize if that's the way you interpreted my statement. I was merely recommending that you check out some science books on this issue (e.g. cosmology). Modern cosmology actually states that none of the events that occurred during the formation of our (visible) universe were "coincidental" at all.
There's a lot wrong with this conclusion, sir. The lack of a creator deity doesn't equate 'coincidence'. The concept is "cause and effect". Specific instances occurred in the past that ultimately led us to where we are today. There was nothing 'coincidental' about it... Now, if we want to be realistic about this proposition, then the concept of a creator defies the logical idea of cause and effect, since religionists claim that God has no 'cause' - he was just 'always there', whatever that means...
Isn't this a logical determination too?
Actually, science CAN prove this. If you examine the concept of a creator deity via the scientific method, though, it doesn't hold water. That's one of the reasons why the concept of gods and goddesses is ONLY substantiated on the basis of faith and belief, not facts... Have you ever looked into the "God question" scientifically? And, more importantly, have to investigated this idea logically?
How did you come up with this idea? The world has to be "supernatural" in order to be eternal (static), even though science clearly says that prime energy can't be created or destroyed? Please elaborate on this.
That's not true, and I think you know that isn't a true statement... I'm not overly concerned with small errors, even though the tiniest of infractions make a big difference when identifying a 'perfect' god. But that's another subject. I thoroughly read your posts, and I respond to them in what I see as being the most suitable manner, without trying to be rude or condescending. If I offended you, I apologize. This just happens to be a particularly passionate subject for me.
Like I said before, I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they choose to believe. I know what it means to be a believer. I've been just about everything - a Christian, Jew (and Ebionitic Jew), Hindu, Muslim (e.g. Sunni, Shia, Salafi, Ahmadi, Hanafi), Submitter (e.g. student of the teachings of Dr. Rashad Khalifa), Buddhist, Taoist, Universalist, student of Rastafarianism, Thelemite, Satanist, Rosicrucian, deist, agnostic, and a few others too! And I'm still under the age of 30. I've been on many roads, and the study of all of those religious groups and orders have inevitably led me to where I am today.
If you'd rather not discuss the issue of theology anymore, then that's your prerogative. I'm merely stating my position on the matter. I'm not trying to convert (or deconvert) anyone to anything. I'm merely providing people with a different way to think about science and philosophy, and I think that's a good thing.
Peace,
Ahmad
Can I ask - what do you believe or not believe in?
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Peace, pixelrow.
Can I ask - what do you believe or not believe in?
I don't specifically dismiss the concept of divinity, for starters, even though I haven't seen any verifiable evidence for the existence of God(s) either. I just try to look at things objectively and rationally. If there is a god, then it seems more likely that the god would be impersonal, rather than personal. Rather than this god existing "beyond" space and time, being completely transcendent and "beyond" the Universe, it would make more rational sense for this god to be a concept of Universal existence itself, such as the viewpoint of god being equated to Nature.
Personally, the idea of a personal god who performs miracles and answers prayers, who creates universes but leaves no evidence for his own existence, doesn't make much sense to me. If people choose to embrace that ideology, then I see nothing wrong with them doing so; however, I can't accept that notion, since it doesn't coincide with logic, reason and verifiable science.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, pixelrow.
I don't specifically dismiss the concept of divinity, for starters, even though I haven't seen any verifiable evidence for the existence of God(s) either. I just try to look at things objectively and rationally. If there is a god, then it seems more likely that the god would be impersonal, rather than personal. Rather than this god existing "beyond" space and time, being completely transcendent and "beyond" the Universe, it would make more rational sense for this god to be a concept of Universal existence itself, such as the viewpoint of god being equated to Nature.
Personally, the idea of a personal god who performs miracles and answers prayers, who creates universes but leaves no evidence for his own existence, doesn't make much sense to me. If people choose to embrace that ideology, then I see nothing wrong with them doing so; however, I can't accept that notion, since it doesn't coincide with logic, reason and verifiable science.
Peace,
Ahmad
In short - Agnostic Atheists?
As far as "verifiable science" goes . . . is it even meant to answer if there is a God or not? I fail to see - science - as we know it has much concern with God.
As for logic . . . that is of course - debatable. I think the most logical answer perhaps - is we do not know.
For me . . . it is quite simple. I do not accept that universe either was or came from nothing. I try my best to grasp Physics - and nothing that I have read has changed my mind. This is my thought process
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Peace, pixelrow.
In short - Agnostic Atheists?
Not necessarily... I don't particularly dismiss that terminology, if it fits. However, the ideas I expressed could also describe a lot of other philosophical worldviews as well - pantheism or naturalism, for example, or even secular humanism. They all fit this criteria, even though they are different in scope and ideology.
As far as "verifiable science" goes . . . is it even meant to answer if there is a God or not? I fail to see - science - as we know it has much concern with God.
Actually, this isn't the case at all. Many scientists are very concerned with the idea of a god (or gods), especially when analyzing the world around us and interpreting its origin and sustainability... Personally, I'm not only interested in science, though; my primary focus is in philosophy, and the "god question" in very important in this field of investigation and inquiry.
As for logic . . . that is of course - debatable. I think the most logical answer perhaps - is we do not know.
I agree.
For me . . . it is quite simple. I do not accept that universe either was or came from nothing.
Again, I agree - I don't believe that the Universe 'came from nothing', nor was it "nothing" in expression. There was always something, regardless of how minute that 'something' may have been at one point in time... So, if the Universe was always "something", or existent, then how do we compare this to the viewpoint that God created the Universe ex nihilo (from nothing)?
I try my best to grasp Physics - and nothing that I have read has changed my mind. This is my thought process
Perhaps my views don't go beyond logic - because what I've learned from the fields of physics, biology, geology, cosmology (and astronomy), and other sciences have dramatically influenced the way I perceive the world. In fact, they're the primary reason why I question the idea of a personal god today.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Ahmad Bilal )
Your posts are really thought provoking ) . I admire your posts though.
You are just skeptical. Skeptics often search for truths.
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Peace, pixelrow.
I don't specifically dismiss the concept of divinity, for starters, even though I haven't seen any verifiable evidence for the existence of God(s) either. I just try to look at things objectively and rationally. If there is a god, then it seems more likely that the god would be impersonal, rather than personal. Rather than this god existing "beyond" space and time, being completely transcendent and "beyond" the Universe, it would make more rational sense for this god to be a concept of Universal existence itself, such as the viewpoint of god being equated to Nature.
Personally, the idea of a personal god who performs miracles and answers prayers, who creates universes but leaves no evidence for his own existence, doesn't make much sense to me. If people choose to embrace that ideology, then I see nothing wrong with them doing so; however, I can't accept that notion, since it doesn't coincide with logic, reason and verifiable science.
Peace,
Ahmad
Haha, you should pray that nothing ever proves to you the existence of the false conceptions of God people have.
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Sometime, each time I cornered in life and I prayed to God. He grant my wish. But in normal condition, which I want maybe, a new laptop, tablet, game console, He never listen. But such a thing I mentioned,if I really need it, for example xbox360,and new tablet for work, as far as my experience, He granted it. I was desperatedly looking for job for 3 months, I failed. When I sujud , which is seldom, He grant me my wish and suddenly after a week someone reference me and I worked on elite university as programmer. The past 3 years I worked from home for foreign company, and my payment 3 times than my hometown.
God dont care with us, He only care with our need, based my experience. I seldomly do sujud, but when it was for ky need I dont know why, based on my life, He granted it. Even for case I should not mention. Personaly, I was dissapointed to God for 5 years, each time Im happy,He always disgrace me. but I dont want to deny the fact, maybe,He listened to my pray. Myabe b saying such a thinglike thi He mght happy. -
there are lot of situations in my life when I was totally lose hope and nothing was in my control. and nobody was able to help . and a state where nothing can achieve apart from a miracle... let say in 6th grade of my school somebody challenged me to come on title positon. the school belong to army and I was orphan , my mom told me to start pray behind her first time I pray and ask something which I really need ,,, miracously Allah granted me a title position. my first pray I still remember its 20 years ago,, after that I encounter plantey of times where only some supreme being helped me... and that help come ,,, that make me believe if u didn't transgress with law and try to be loyal with your Allah he never let u down,,, specially in the matters of respect and need... trust me.. I dnt only worship my lord,, I love him and this love is undescribeable ,,, that what Allah is even the relationship with God is amazing only a person can understand ... once my teacher challenged me u will fail in math if you never get tuition from me,,, my mom at that time was unabale to afford the tuition it was so high... I pray from my lord,,, and interestingly he failed me in school exams but in the board exams I beat his very best student with long margins... I got 86 out of 100 ... that what my lord is... he knows what u really need ..