New but not new to the views.
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NOTE Most people here are defining themselves via their religious views. Let me just break the tradition.
It's sort of funny how most of you guys came to this website to learn about Islam (apparently from a Quranic perspective), but then got into heated (or not so heated) discussions and even got to the stage of constructing an "online- dating" space for 'Quranists'...?
That was fast lol.
Khair I am Rida Khan. I was born in Pakistan, but I was 3 years old when I moved to Japan, making Japanese my first language. I did part of my primary education there and lived in the cities of Amami Oshima, Tsukuba and Tokyo. I later migrated to Pakistan and completed my primary education there while learning about my dominant culture, its languages and traditions. I migrated to Australia in 2005, grew up in a country town and completed my high school there. In 2012, I moved to Melbourne to complete my undergrad studies.
I am a production and reflections of the cultures I lived in and the people I met. My multi- lingual abilities have allowed me to explore Quran and Islam in ways that most people may not be able to due to the lack of diversity. I am neither Western, nor Eastern. I do not call myself a feminist as I believe in fighting for the rights of all human beings equally rather than just women. I do not role model any one, but admire many for their good work.
Welcome to the forum. welcome
I have quite a few things in common with you.
I actually don't identify as Western or Eastern either and I don't label myself as feminist - it might be counterproductive in terms of how people view some of the causes.I don't think I am here to date anyone simply because they are not likely to be in Australia and I don't do long-distance relationships. And the fact that most people have jobs in the country they are living in and are unlikely to move just because they met someone in the internet world. Sure, there are romantics out there. But after a hell of dating both online and face to face, I am just not so sure. If we meet, great. If we don't, my guess is we will do just fine.
I didn't realise people viewed this as a dating site. I didn't even notice the "matrimony" section until some "recent posts" popped up there.
MY VIEWS
There are so many things that I am not. A bad person? Hope not. I refuse to call myself a Quranist or a follower of Quranism, or Ahl-e-Quran, or Anti- hadith to the extent of disrespectful and hateful of those who follow hadiths. I am not a Quran-aloner, God- aloner and Prophet Muhammad is not my "father" and neither are his wives my "mother/s". Some non- Muslims label me as a "humanist", even though my views are based on the teachings of Quran which indeed is a guide book for humanity. Am I a Capitalist? No. Anarchist? No. Any other form of 'ist' = no. I am liberal, but not a libertarian and nor am I a hijabi (the most messed up label of the 21st century). I do not like to be called "Parwezi" just because I admire and appreciate the works of Ghulam Ahmed Parwez. How would you like to be called 'Akonian' for listening to the rap songs by Akon? Chamak Challo?... Seriously dude. People just like to label everyone and everything allowing media to throw on more jargon towards Islam and Muslims.
I find there is a very negative attitude towards those following hadiths in any shape or form sometimes. I wonder how these people are much different from the people who have a similar negative attitude to "us". Some people even say that people in Arab countries etc are facing war and bloodshed because they are because of following hadiths, like a punishment? How do we know that? And what if believers are caught up in it? It just seems very inappropriate and cruel given what the Quran says and how it is Allah who knows best the challenges He brings forth for people. It reminds me of what Prophet Job went through, and how some people even abandoned him.
Above all, if you all really, honestly, absolutely believe that Quran is the word of the Divine. And that as Muslims our purpose in the world is to work towards World Peace. Then, be prepared to compromise and stand firm to keep peace.
What do you mean by compromise? There really is a distinction, at times, from attempting to please or appease people, atheists lets say. I find this is a group that people can easily end up trying to "appease" if they are religious. In fact, I've seen some Atheists who have commented back about my views - negatively and as though they are offended - about ridicule of certain things religious people do (I think it was about songs that religious people may write during times of hardship and then simply ridiculing this), but these same people think its ok for them to say whatever they want about anything and ridicule it etc. so, why would it be an issue for me to raise questions about what they do? I'm not sure if you meant appease when you said compromise, I'm just mentioning a point that came to mind.
And yes, that does mean that we need to work in conjunction with the mainstream Muslim community, NOT against them. Universal unity is an Islamic goal, not grouping down into more sects. And I emphasize this more towards the new breed of converted Muslims in the Western world, with all due respect to their inputs towards Islam.
I agree, they might need to meet us half way though.
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Well, i hope you enjoy your trip. But it seems from your background that you are not a first language Arabic speaker, as you stated the meanings and the root words of both Muslim and Momin wrong. And I state the following to expand your Arabic knowledge, as many out there are not aware of the classical Arabic literature.
The word Muslim is derived from the word Islam, and with the word Islam, the focus is on the letters Seen- Lam- Meem. Following is a detailed description of the various scholars and the linguists.
All the basic meanings are taken from Moheet, Taj and Lane; these are eight in number-
Salema means he got purified from all the defects, shortcomings; all the shortcomings are complemented. Verse (Quran verse 2/71) refers to the cow that is perfect and without any defect, so its basic meanings are to get well and perfect, complete in all respects so that no defect remains.To remain safe from all dangers, accidents, mishaps. Ibn-e-Faris says that its basic meanings are more inclined towards perfection in health, safety and security. As-Sal'am is also one of the names of Allah used in the Quran (59/23) which means free from all defects and shortcomings and who faces no danger from anything. The author of Taj-ul-Urus, however, disagrees with this and says that Sal'amun means someone from whom safety and security is sought. Sal'am is one of the names of Allah, as He has kept the entire creation safe from all catastrophes and His System and Laws are in operation with perfection.
As-Sullamu means a ladder used to reach some high place and is safe and dependable. So the third meanings are the ways and means by which someone can reach the heights with confidence.
As-Silmu (2/20 means one who lives with peace and order and also maintains peace and order. Tasalamat-il-Khailo means horses who march in step; no horse creates any trouble or mischief - all are in one step. This explains the Islamic System. As-Silmu-wa-As-Salamu means to be obedient, to bow, to surrender. So the fifth basic meanings are to bow to and obey the Laws of Allah in totality. Nawab Siddique Hasan Khan writes that the basic meanings contain the element of humility and softness.
Is-Taslama Sakamat-Tareeq means one who walked in the middle of the path and did not deviate from it. Qaloo Salama means who leads or takes up the middle path, does not look either side and avoids obscene things or lewdness. So the sixth meanings of this root are to adopt a balanced way and avoid obscenities, filthiness, indecency, and immodesty.
Is-Talam-az-Zaru means the crop has ripened. So the seventh meanings of this root are a system under which efforts bear fruit. As-Salimatu is a woman whose hands, feet and limbs are soft, beautiful and in perfect shape. So the eighth meanings of this root are beauty and elegance.
To sum up, Al-Islam means a system or code of life which-
Removes all the shortcomings of a person and enables him to develop all his potentialities.
Safeguards him from all the dangers, catastrophes and degradations of life, and
marches him on towards higher evolutionary stages of life. Enables not only himself to lead a peaceful life but also helps maintain peace and order around him and in the whole world.
Trains him to live in harmony among other fellow beings and not to commit any act by which someone else gets enraged or upset.So like you said the "peacemaker" but by following ONLY Quran alone. (and using knowledge, 'ilm' to help consolidate the Quranic views/ Islamic social order).
So Islam is that code of life which has been revealed by Allah for the mankind. There is no other code acceptable to Him. In Surah 'Ale-Imran (3), verse 82, Quran says, "Do those people desire some different Deen than the one ordained by Allah?" At another place, "Whereas whatever is there in the universe follows the way which leads to the goal set for them by Allah" (13/15). At yet another place, "If someone adopts a way other than this, it will not be acceptable and in the end he will be the loser" (3/84). This is the Code which was revealed to various Anbia from time to time and its final and complete form to Rasool Allah (peace be upon him) and this code has been selected for the entire mankind. This code of life has been named Al-Islam and the followers of this Code are called Muslimeen. A Muslim is he, who accepts the Holy Quran as the one and only, complete and final Code revealed by Allah for the mankind.
NOW as for the word "Momin". It actually originates from the word "Aman". Ask any Urdu/ Sanskrit speakers and they will reassure you that Aman means "Peace". Thus Momin is a person who practices peace in Sub-continental language. You may argue that it is not Arabic, thus I will give you the Quran word "Ei'man" from which the word Momin is derived from. The root word for Eiman are Alif- Meem- Noon.
Amnun means peace, safety, state of mind where one feels safe from fear or danger (2/24). Also when one feels safe, secure and at peace. Ibn-e-Faris says that its basic meanings are-
Peace of mind. To testify. The opposite of dishonesty.Amana is to satisfy someone and put him at ease without fear, to provide peace or protection to someone, to take over the responsibilities of someone's protection (Taj).
Aitimanun is to trust someone, have confidence on someone, take someone as trustee or protector (Taj).
Naq'atun Amoon is a she-camel which is dependable by virtue of her qualities and can take one through the journey without getting weak or falling down after stumbling (Taj).
Momin is one who stands guarantee for peace, upon whom one can depend, rely and then rest at peace, one who guarantee international peace (Taj).
Amanat is something which is entrusted to someone (Moheet).
Ameen is one who is contended, at peace, trustworthy, reliable, dependable.
Baladun Ameen is a city where peace and security prevails (Makkah)(95/3).Muqamun Ameen is a place which provides adequate provisions of protection and security (44/52).
To declare Ei'man, therefore, means-
To believe, admit, accept or not to reject.
To testify the truthfulness, not to contradict.
To have confidence, reliance, trust.
To accept, to obey, to bow in obedience.According to the Holy Quran, Ei'man on the following five fundamental entities is needed in order to become a Momin (2/177)-
The Allah.
The Law of Mukaf'at and the life Hereafter.
The Malaika.
The revealed Books.
The Anbia.And Momin is one who accepts the truth and acts in such a way that it ensures his own peace and helps him to safeguard the peace and security of the rest of mankind. Indeed, Al-Momin is one of the most important Attributes of Allah Himself.
Personally I wouldn't call myself a "Momin" simply because Momin is an attribute to Allah and also because I do not believe I have done enough good deeds to achieve a status like that of Momin. Thus, I simply call myself a Muslim, i.e a follower of Islam and its holy book Quran.
Umm... I sort of have a feeling, you also believe that "Malaika" means "Angels" and "Shaitan" means the "Devil"...? Yes?... Even though, the both concepts Angels and Shaitan are neither Islamic and nor rational. And certainly derived from the Christian concepts of Angels and Satan. Will discuss further, if you are interested. In my understanding, not only the word Muslim translates as the follower of Islam and Quran, but also as a Believer of the guidelines of the Quran. You tend to put the the term "believer" in a more generic form.
I still do not understand which religion you identify yourself as on your passport. My guess is still "Other".
Salaam Rida
Correction 2177 is about Mutaqoon.
More likely description for a Momin can be find in
The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, their hearts become fearful, and when His verses are recited to them, it increases them in faith; and upon their Lord they rely. 82
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, , "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the destination." 2285
The only statement of the believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful. 2451
Why would not you consider yourself Momin, when Allah is addressing you as a Momin.
O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims . 3102
Peace
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Salaam Awaal_Muslim,
Thanks for helping the Truth to be spread. Of course you are a Mu?min (or true "Believer" if you are absolutely certain about God and His amazing world. 4914-15 give a good definition of a Mu?min too.
In a way we are all Muslims due to the meaning of the term, even if we turned into Momeen. I think we work through our whole life seeking to extend our knowledge. Yet we must remember they are just descriptive words, not names. We belong to God's religion, not man-made inventions in the case of religious sects. Islam is still a description, if you know what I mean.
God bless you and thanks for your input again
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Salaam Awaal_Muslim,
Thanks for helping the Truth to be spread. Of course you are a Mu?min (or true "Believer" if you are absolutely certain about God and His amazing world. 4914-15 give a good definition of a Mu?min too.
In a way we are all Muslims due to the meaning of the term, even if we turned into Momeen. I think we work through our whole life seeking to extend our knowledge. Yet we must remember they are just descriptive words, not names. We belong to God's religion, not man-made inventions in the case of religious sects. Islam is still a description, if you know what I mean.
God bless you and thanks for your input again
Salaam Man of Faith
You stated that "In a way we are all Muslims due to the meaning of the term, even if we turned into Momeen" - However, Quran addresses it slightly differently
According to Quran, Ibraheem with Ismael (PBUH) praying to Allah after being having prophet-hood
Our Lord, and make us Muslims to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. 2128
according to the ayat Ibraheem (pbuh) did not presume himself a Muslim, even though he was the prophet of Allah, a friend of Allah, the leader of the mankind and the father of the religion. So when you say the Muslim is descriptive, yes indeed, but it is Allah who make us Muslim named us Muslim 2278. Our job is to live our lives according to Allah's Guidance and amend/correct constantly to achieve the status of a Muslim on the day of judgement. For example we can not become a Doctor until we pass the exam. A Muslim can not be other than a Muslim.
However Quran does addresses the believers and warn them about the Non-believer. so there are labelled believers, but not labelled Muslims.
And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers. 214
Allah's messenger's practice to Balligh/Proclaim/Announce Allah's Message but never his own ideology, which is very frequent on this forum. I believe we need to follow Messenger's practice, when we relate things to Allah. According to ayats below
There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often. 3321
O Messenger, announce (balligh) that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people. 567
Refer back to your statement "Of course you are a Mu?min (or true "Believer" if you are absolutely certain about God and His amazing world."
I believe that being a believer is about continuously correcting oneself according to Allah's revelation.
But they who believe and correct/amend themselves(amanoowaAAamiloo assalihati) - those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally. 282
According to the ayat below Believers are in manifest error, until Allah favor upon them. Therefore, one can not be absolutely certain until Allah's favor upon them.
Certainly did Allah confer favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. 3164
Further Allah explains how the messengers/prophets correct themselves
And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain . So when the night covered him , he saw a star. He said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "I like not those that disappear." And when he saw the moon rising, he said, "This is my lord." But when it set, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray." And when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my lord; this is greater." But when it set, he said, "O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah. Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah ." 675-79
And remember Our servant Job, when he called to his Lord, "Indeed, Satan has touched me with hardship and torment." , "Strike with your foot; this is a a cool bath and drink."And We granted him his family and a like with them as mercy from Us and a reminder for those of understanding. 341-43
Peace
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This is one of the reasons I call myself Quranist. In my association with Muslims, they appreciate the fact that I'm open and honest about my views. I don't pretend as if there are no differences between us then hijack their platform to air my own views. I see other quranists doing that and I will not be part of that dishonest approach. Having a label does not mean being sectarian. Usually it's the opposite, those who refuse any kind of labels, calling themselves 'muslim only' are those who claim other Muslims are disbelievers or polytheists. I won't play that game.
I agree with this logic. I call myself a Quranist Muslim to distance myself from Sunni Islam. Unfortunately Sunnis have hijacked the label of "Muslim". Personally I don't care to associate myself with those who oppress women, condone the murder of apostates and disbelievers, claim the Prophet Muhammad was a child molester, abrogate verses of Quran, etc.
When someone asks my religion, I say "Quranist Muslim". This prompts them to ask what that is and gives me the opportunity to explain. This method feels comfortable and congruent to me. But I have no problem with those who feel comfortable labeling themselves as Muslim, believer or whatever. And I also agree that Quranist is not a new sect. It really is the original before other books and political alliances divided Muslims. The word Quranist is simply a better way to describe our beliefs. Just my opinion. Peace.
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Salaam Awaal_Muslim,
Thanks for your elaboration. I think you may have misunderstood my point or I may have expressed myself poorly. Or I cannot grasp what you wanted to highlight now.
I said that you may be a Truthseeker your whole life, even if you have come to a peace of mind and are absolutely certain about the Truth, thus being a true Believer (Mu?min). I am always open to better suggestions on how to refer to this.
I have a feeling we have the same understanding, but I am happy to read your words on this.
It is the monotone referral of the Believers as Muslims I was after since it is a description and not a name. I think we meant the same thing, basically.
God bless you
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Hey there Man of Faith
Sorry for the way over-due reply, got caught up with uni holidays. )
Look, I absolutely respect your choice of calling yourself a Quranist and thinking that Quran is a universal book, however of course, I may just have to agree to disagree at the label of calling oneself a Quranist. I prefer to call myself a Muslim. I guess partly because calling oneself a Muslim gives you a sense of belonging and identity. And we have learnt that from evolution of human wanting to belong to a particular tribe.
I do recommend that you learn Arabic though if you really admire Quran that much. I don't know, it maybe handy. Personally, I like to study hebrew some day because i want to read the Torah/ Talmud in hebrew. )
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What do you mean by compromise? There really is a distinction, at times, from attempting to please or appease people, atheists lets say. I find this is a group that people can easily end up trying to "appease" if they are religious. In fact, I've seen some Atheists who have commented back about my views - negatively and as though they are offended - about ridicule of certain things religious people do (I think it was about songs that religious people may write during times of hardship and then simply ridiculing this), but these same people think its ok for them to say whatever they want about anything and ridicule it etc. so, why would it be an issue for me to raise questions about what they do? I'm not sure if you meant appease when you said compromise, I'm just mentioning a point that came to mind.
Hey there supportpeacenotwar-
Apologies for the late reply, I know compromise can be a manipulative word at times. But i had suggest that it is important to recognise the actions/ intention of the person/ group you are compromising with. For example,
I could never compromise with Saudi Arabian/ wahabis to legally making it difficult for women to seek divorce/ drive/ stopping them from going out of the house etc. I will not, and can not compromise with the injustice and oppression of these men over the women. At times, I can also not compromise with those Atheists who think "all" religious belief is nothing but a fairytale and everyone who has a religion is stupid. Of course, their ignorance is not something I can compromise with.But I can compromise with people/ groups who are practicing their beliefs without inflicting pain onto others either psychological or physically. A group that I can not compromise with as a Muslim/ Human is perhaps the practice of the cast system in Hinduism. I am okay with their idolatry practice, their dance/rituals (as long as it is not harming the environment which is not the case with the current condition of the Ganges river) but i can compromise with certain Hindus who usually tend to pick and choose parts of hinduism that may assimilate with their lives.
Of course, no two people can ever agree on everything all the time even if they belong to the same sect/tribal clan. Again, as humans we shall compromise on those practices/ beliefs which are not harming other directly. At this moment in time, I sit here silently, compromising with the billions of people who do not agree with my beliefs. I am not saying that my relationship with God is personal, I dont think my relationship with God can ever be personal for as long as we humans live in system called a "society" where we have to contribute to qualify as being a member.
To put it simply, compromise with everything but injustice done to others- people, environment, animals.
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Hey there supportpeacenotwar-
Apologies for the late reply, I know compromise can be a manipulative word at times. But i had suggest that it is important to recognise the actions/ intention of the person/ group you are compromising with. For example,
I could never compromise with Saudi Arabian/ wahabis to legally making it difficult for women to seek divorce/ drive/ stopping them from going out of the house etc. I will not, and can not compromise with the injustice and oppression of these men over the women. At times, I can also not compromise with those Atheists who think "all" religious belief is nothing but a fairytale and everyone who has a religion is stupid. Of course, their ignorance is not something I can compromise with.But I can compromise with people/ groups who are practicing their beliefs without inflicting pain onto others either psychological or physically. A group that I can not compromise with as a Muslim/ Human is perhaps the practice of the cast system in Hinduism. I am okay with their idolatry practice, their dance/rituals (as long as it is not harming the environment which is not the case with the current condition of the Ganges river) but i can compromise with certain Hindus who usually tend to pick and choose parts of hinduism that may assimilate with their lives.
Of course, no two people can ever agree on everything all the time even if they belong to the same sect/tribal clan. Again, as humans we shall compromise on those practices/ beliefs which are not harming other directly. At this moment in time, I sit here silently, compromising with the billions of people who do not agree with my beliefs. I am not saying that my relationship with God is personal, I dont think my relationship with God can ever be personal for as long as we humans live in system called a "society" where we have to contribute to qualify as being a member.
To put it simply, compromise with everything but injustice done to others- people, environment, animals.
Salaam RidaKhan,
No problem. Funnily enough, in my last reply a few moments ago I was just saying that humans will rarely agree on everything. I see what you mean, compromise and tolerance are essential and what you're saying fits my understanding of the Quran. I would disagree on the point about having a personal relationship with God, as I believe we do. I think we serve Allah, not people. We live in society, it has benefits and many problems but I don't believe it prevents our personal relationship with God. I have occasionally come across views where people look at the warnings that God gives as a way of saying anyone who ever does certain things outside of Islam is doomed right there are then. They seem to be forgetting that God is The Most Patient and the Most Merciful. But, as you say, there is a line to be drawn in that compromise when it comes to intolerance, hatred and injustice etc.
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Salaam Rida
Correction 2177 is about Mutaqoon.
Why would not you consider yourself Momin, when Allah is addressing you as a Momin.
Peace
I don't call myself Momin because I don't believe I have reached that stage yet. According to Parwez- who I really admire, to be a Momin, we go through 4 phases.
Phase 1 Muslim
Here you accept Islam and by that I mean that you accept that there is one God, Quran is the book of God (given that you have thoroughly studied it and explored every aspect of it), and recognize the efforts of the Prophets. (Believe me, the first stage is not as easy as it sounds as human heart needs to be convinced about these "facts".)
Phase 2 Salahiteen
Now that you are clear about the foundations of the Islamic faith. It is time that you use and expand your "salahiyat" or "abilities" to work for the cause of Islam i.e. peace and injustice. For me this phase is about completing school, university, getting enough work experience etc.
Phase 3 Mutaqqeen (as mentioned by you)
Mutaqeen defined as people who are able to defend themselves from every hurdle in their life. Like an Arab that travels through the Arabian desert, tightly holding his robe and skipping every spiky desert plant/bush/ animals e.g. poisonous snake which if not dealt with properly can lead to death or permanent harm. I can send you a document which is a glossary of Quran so you can look up these terms in more detail.
After passing the phase of Mulim and Salahiteen can we only be prepared enough to face difficulties in life, and if we succeed, we become Mutaqeen.
Phase 4 The Final phase known as the phase of Momin. The peacemakers.
Now that our Islamic foundation is strong, have abilities/ qualifications to back up our stance, and have gained enough experience in life to deal with hurdles- we are now asked to work and strive for world peace.
In this phase, because we are empowered by our abilities, strength of character and experience, we are now asked to take on a greater responsibility (and by far the hardest) as Allah or God believes that we are ready for something much bigger.
So here are the 4 phases of a Muslim's journey as described in the Quran. The 4 words, Muslim, Momin, Salahiteen and Mutaqqin are repeatedly used. And I admire Parwez and Allama Iqbal to have been able to recognize and divide this step by step approach in order for Muslims to gain more control about their practice of Islam.
Thus, I do not feel that I have reached a place like that of Momin (peacemaker) since I do not feel that my heart has reached that "satisfaction" phase of Momin where I am happy to leave the world because I think I have done some good to the humanity.
I am still struggling with the phase 2 and 3. I need salahiyat- skills/tools to back me up and I am still learning to handle the difficulties that life throws at me. I know that life is unpredictable and can continue to throw difficulties, however, if you can pass the first few difficult experiences, you are likely to be able to deal with anything because you have a good foundation, required skills, tools and enough life experience.
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Salaam RidaKhan,
No problem. Funnily enough, in my last reply a few moments ago I was just saying that humans will rarely agree on everything. I see what you mean, compromise and tolerance are essential and what you're saying fits my understanding of the Quran. I would disagree on the point about having a personal relationship with God, as I believe we do. I think we serve Allah, not people. We live in society, it has benefits and many problems but I don't believe it prevents our personal relationship with God. I have occasionally come across views where people look at the warnings that God gives as a way of saying anyone who ever does certain things outside of Islam is doomed right there are then. They seem to be forgetting that God is The Most Patient and the Most Merciful. But, as you say, there is a line to be drawn in that compromise when it comes to intolerance, hatred and injustice etc.
Awesome. Cool. Well said. )
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Peace RidaKhan,
Good stuff, please continue with your explanation of angels and satan God willing.
Message me with an email address and I will send you the required documents that speak about the root words of Mailaika and Shaytan. You might find the glossary helpful as it also defines other concepts often wrongly translated.
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Salaam RidaKhan,
I do study the Arabic Quran to some extent, not as much as I could I guess, but I know some basics.
Did I say that I was a "Quranist"?
No, I did not, I avoid the term. I said I was a Believer, but if I have to refer to myself with a religious origin, I suppose it would be Muslim, since it seems to be the only accepted term. It is not wrong either, just that that term is so misused.
I understand that is why the definition "Submitter" emerged, so suppose I may have to land on Muslim. However, I belong to no sect, simply Muslim.
The reason is the false perception that the Muslims today are the only Muslims, anyone can be a Muslim, even if not been studying Quran.
God bless you
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I don't call myself Momin because I don't believe I have reached that stage yet. According to Parwez- who I really admire, to be a Momin, we go through 4 phases.
Phase 1 Muslim
Here you accept Islam and by that I mean that you accept that there is one God, Quran is the book of God (given that you have thoroughly studied it and explored every aspect of it), and recognize the efforts of the Prophets. (Believe me, the first stage is not as easy as it sounds as human heart needs to be convinced about these "facts".)
Phase 2 Salahiteen
Now that you are clear about the foundations of the Islamic faith. It is time that you use and expand your "salahiyat" or "abilities" to work for the cause of Islam i.e. peace and injustice. For me this phase is about completing school, university, getting enough work experience etc.
Phase 3 Mutaqqeen (as mentioned by you)
Mutaqeen defined as people who are able to defend themselves from every hurdle in their life. Like an Arab that travels through the Arabian desert, tightly holding his robe and skipping every spiky desert plant/bush/ animals e.g. poisonous snake which if not dealt with properly can lead to death or permanent harm. I can send you a document which is a glossary of Quran so you can look up these terms in more detail.
After passing the phase of Mulim and Salahiteen can we only be prepared enough to face difficulties in life, and if we succeed, we become Mutaqeen.
Phase 4 The Final phase known as the phase of Momin. The peacemakers.
Now that our Islamic foundation is strong, have abilities/ qualifications to back up our stance, and have gained enough experience in life to deal with hurdles- we are now asked to work and strive for world peace.
In this phase, because we are empowered by our abilities, strength of character and experience, we are now asked to take on a greater responsibility (and by far the hardest) as Allah or God believes that we are ready for something much bigger.
So here are the 4 phases of a Muslim's journey as described in the Quran. The 4 words, Muslim, Momin, Salahiteen and Mutaqqin are repeatedly used. And I admire Parwez and Allama Iqbal to have been able to recognize and divide this step by step approach in order for Muslims to gain more control about their practice of Islam.
Thus, I do not feel that I have reached a place like that of Momin (peacemaker) since I do not feel that my heart has reached that "satisfaction" phase of Momin where I am happy to leave the world because I think I have done some good to the humanity.
I am still struggling with the phase 2 and 3. I need salahiyat- skills/tools to back me up and I am still learning to handle the difficulties that life throws at me. I know that life is unpredictable and can continue to throw difficulties, however, if you can pass the first few difficult experiences, you are likely to be able to deal with anything because you have a good foundation, required skills, tools and enough life experience.
Salaam Rida
Lets accept the meaning and theory of Momin according to your understanding, but than it left me wonder who Allah is addressing in Quran as a believer?
O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous - 2183
So we should not be fasting because we think we are not a believer yet?
O you who have believed, spend from that which We have provided for you before there comes a Day in which there is no exchange and no friendship and no intercession. And the disbelievers - they are the wrongdoers. 2254
And we should not be spending in the way of Allah?
O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through , until you have washed . And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands . Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. 443
Or can we approach to Salaat because we have not believed as yet?
I think you started well in the post but you are inclining towards the same path that you started the post about. I expected that to backup your statements you should be quoting Quranic Ayats, with the knowledge and understanding you demonstrated about Arabic and Quran. Although, it is nice to know about Iqbal and Prevaiz but Allah (Ar-Rehman) takes precedence on all of them.
So I swear by what you see. And what you do not see. indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger. And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. Nor the word of a soothsayer; little do you remember. a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings. We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta. And there is no one of you who could prevent from him. And indeed, the Qur'an is a reminder for the righteous. And indeed, We know that among you are deniers. 6938-49
Also, could you also elaborate how you translated Momin as a Peace Maker.
Peace unto you.
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Awesome. Cool. Well said. )
Thanks, that's probably the best response I've had here. )
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Salaam RidaKhan,
I do study the Arabic Quran to some extent, not as much as I could I guess, but I know some basics.
Did I say that I was a "Quranist"?
No, I did not, I avoid the term. I said I was a Believer, but if I have to refer to myself with a religious origin, I suppose it would be Muslim, since it seems to be the only accepted term. It is not wrong either, just that that term is so misused.
I understand that is why the definition "Submitter" emerged, so suppose I may have to land on Muslim. However, I belong to no sect, simply Muslim.
The reason is the false perception that the Muslims today are the only Muslims, anyone can be a Muslim, even if not been studying Quran.
God bless you
Hey there! I AM SO SORRY You were NOT meant to read that post lol. My internet died around 4pm yesterday and I have been trying to get it work. I just spoke to the internet people and thank god it is working. You are right, you never said you were a Quranist and from reading your post you had already told me that you were learning Arabic, which I sincerely appreciate. So here's my actual response that I wanted to post lol.
You are right in the regard that Arabic is not my primary language, but you seem to have misunderstood my point in the post you read, since you said I tried to claim that Mu?min is the same as Muslim or translate into this, which I never did. I tried to define the word Muslim according to my knowledge, which is something like Peacemaker and the words Islam, Muslim and Salaam come from the root S L M. It does not take an expert to draw these conclusions I did, and I did not make this discovery on my own, credit is to people on this forum. I think the word Peacemaker/Submitter is still not the right choice to properly define Muslim, but something like Truth-seeker or similar.
Rida That's fine. I get you here.
//One does not have to be a Muslim to grasp the Message which all messengers came with and they all brought the same Message with some adjustments to the contents.//
Rida Yes. You do not have to be a Muslim to obtain the message of God. But you do need to recognise that in Islam Quran summarises the message of God and clears it out for other people. Thus you do need to study Quran as perhaps a matter of interest. I would discourage you to stick to translations of other people.
// Following the basic principles of the religion of God is simple, it means believing in God alone and the Hereafter, and to be a righteous believer. The Quran is a good book to guide people to be righteous, but this does not mean a man or a woman cannot be living in the Light of God without it.//
I don't understand you at all here. People maybe guided to an extent, by their society/ education-and perhaps athiests are guided too. But they may not be fully guided. It seems like you have this illusion that there is one "religion of God" which is universal. I strongly oppose this idea because well, this means that you dont think that Islam is that religion, or maybe you do, yet you think other religions say the same thing as Islam one way or the other therefore humans are getting the same Quranic message. If you mash all religions into one, all Gods into one, all books (regardless of their fabrication) into one- you are left with nothing but contradictions. And yet, you feel that everyone is "Rightly guided"? For example, what do you mean by the "righteous believer"?- which scripture determines who is a believer and who isnt? Buddhists may practice idolatry which contradicts the foundation of Islam- but a practicing Buddhist is a "believer" . It cannot be all same Man of Faith, each religion has its sets of rules/ foundations. There maybe generic guidelines like no to injustice/theft/murder etc- however, there are clear distinctions in guidelines of one religion to another. I am sorry to say, but this is a very popular western-converted Muslim perspective, which well... is certainly not Islamic in my understanding. Even though, I respect you for your beliefs.
//You are right in many ways, and I knew most of what you wrote already, but it was well written to the depth of it, I could learn at least a thing or two from it. The only problem is that this boastful contentment with the Quran has rendered you slightly arrogant to the extent of denying all the existing religions (sects) in the world. You do not have to be speaking and writing Arabic to grasp God?s Message//
Yep. I was right to conclude earlier. It is not something new for a converted Muslim of the West to minimize the emphasize to learn Arabic. Which of course is a must to understand Quran and its messages. Like I said earlier, translations can be wrong. You must learn the language. But we- (tempted to use the word "We" here), as Muslims do expect that if you want to join Islam you must have an understanding of either Arabic- or a languages similar to it like Persian, Urdu or Turkish. It is very sad that the new converts do not comprehend this despite many Muslim scholars emphasizing the importance of Arabic. Very, very sad.
//before I stumbled onto the Quran and I cannot say I was on a highway to Hell before I did so, I saw through Satan?s tricks with the trinity and invented stories about Jesus and I was a monotheist believer even then. I had never even taken my eyes upon the Quran before that and read the warnings about Jesus and the belief in the trinity.//
Quran makes it clear that if someone simply did not know the messages of the Quran then their lack of knowledge by chance will not shove them into hell. However, if someone does have the knowledge of the Quran and is aware of its messages and then deliberately choose not to adhere to the Quranic laws. This is when it starts getting tricky. You weren't going to be shoved into hell before you stumbled across Quran. And I dont think I ever said that anyone who believes in something else other than Quran will go to hell. For all I know is that I am not God, and I am no one to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
//Please do not get me wrong, the Quran is a most excellent book, perfectly detailed and it is not seemingly biased, its Message can be understood even with a quite poorly translated Quran//
You don't sound very convinced lol. Why "join Islam" after reading a "poorly" translation of Quran. Why not do more research before you convert? -
//If we want to classify ourselves by the ?name? Muslims, through the name Islam, we break God?s commandment of not divide ourselves into sects, because it is what it is, at least if we think it is a special religion exclusive to those who call themselves Muslim.//
Allah refers to the followers of Quran as Muslims. I do not comprehend your problem with this term. I am guessing it is the stereotype that is created in the Western media about the term "Muslim" which is preventing you from embracing it. Any other reason for rejecting this term, to me, is just lack of understanding of the Quran and its importance and emphasize of the term Muslim. I replied to Awal's post speaking of the 4 phases of being a Muslim. You might want to have a look.
//I must thank you for providing me with some additional information which I did not know, or if I did know it, you put new light to it, you had me thinking, even if I have not changed my mind regarding my perception of the Truth, as I am most certain about it.//
Fair enough.
//You said that I put Believer into a generic form, I say that I choose this neutral term because it means just as it is usually perceived, as someone who believes in God, since there is only one God, one religion, thus making the term Muslim less attractive, if one wants to be open to the world. //
Again, a typical Western- convert response. I have met so many people like you. it's so interesting how you guys come up with these abstract understanding of something so simple. / Yet, you have the right to call yourself whatever you are comfortable with.
//If it would be possible, if my passport had this information, to state my religion, I would have wanted it to say ?the religion of God? or ?God?s religion?, since it is the most accurate term. There is only one religion and that is God?s religion. Creating religious sects is just causing additional imbalance in the peace of the Earth, hence I free myself of the boundaries of a specific religion. If you want to call me ?Other? as religion, then please go ahead and do it, but I would say that it is Christian, Jew, Muslim etc, which is in the ?Other? category. For non-other, the choice is God?s religion. So it is either God?s religion or ?Other?.//
I had agree with you here. You are indeed among the "Other" category. Thank you for finally answering this.
// Your Arabic is certainly better than mine, but we must still contemplate the Quran?s true meaning. I respect the translations I have read and I am sure they did their utmost to present it as accurate as they could, considering Arabic is used in a completely different way than English. And I study the original Arabic Quran together with those who are more knowledgeable in Arabic than I am.//
Just be careful about those teaching you the Arabic. I am glad you are making the effort though. However, I like to end the discussion here and agree to disagree, respectfully.
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Okay to begin with. Can you please stop quoting my lengthy responses and only quote specific parts?
Thank you.
//Lets accept the meaning and theory of Momin according to your understanding, but than it left me wonder who Allah is addressing in Quran as a believer?//
Rida My understanding? I had say Parwez's understanding. And your question makes me want to quote a mohawara in Urdu, that "ap baal ki khaal nikal rahay ho" i.e "you are trying to rip skin off the hair"- it is used when someone is deliberately trying to analyze/ dig information from something that is very straight forward.
Even though, I shouldn't be justifying my beliefs to you, yet I don't want people to think I stepped back because I didn't have enough Quranic knowledge. I certainly do not want them to think that someone who copies verses from the Quran and posts them on discussion forms automatically qualifies to be "more educated" about the Quran. Learning from Jinnah/ Iqbal and Parwez- my elders have taught me to be mindful of the respect shown to the Quran/ Islam in general. Therefore, in my humble understanding, it feels like "you are making a mockery out of Quran" if you post a Quranic verse on a "random" discussion forum often accessed by trolls. Therefore, I very rarely quote Quran on discussion forums unless I have to, in order to explain a particular point of view. Previously I mentioned my annoyance with this guy called "amir" who had been posting entire Quran on this discussion forum and literally preaching to people. I don't like what he is doing, I don't agree with preaching and I certainly find it very insensitive of people quoting Quran where ever and whenever they like. It's pathetic. Really, it is.
To your second question, who is Allah referring to when he uses the word Salahiteen/ mutaqeen/ momin- of course he is referring to Muslims- to be generic. Because you wouldn't be a salahiteen/ mutaqeen or momin if you weren't first a Muslim. So again, don't try to rip skin off the hair.
//I think you started well in the post but you are inclining towards the same path that you started the post about. I expected that to backup your statements you should be quoting Quranic Ayats, with the knowledge and understanding you demonstrated about Arabic and Quran. Although, it is nice to know about Iqbal and Prevaiz but Allah (Ar-Rehman) takes precedence on all of them. //
Also, could you also elaborate how you translated Momin as a Peace Maker.
Peace unto you.
Allah does indeed precedes over any human understanding, but I trust these people's views. I have already told you why I don't tend to quote Quran unless I have to.
Look up my previous posts about the word Muslim/ Momin and see for yourself why Momin- indeed means a peacemaker. I think it is on page 2 of this discussion forum. I have also quoted Quranic verses there. Besides, weren't you the one correcting me on one of the verses quoting "mutaqoon" ? So then, you must have already read my lengthy post about the words Muslim/ Momin, where not only have I quoted scholars, but also the Quranic verses. Perhaps go read it again.
But do try not to rip skin off the hair. As the hair do not have skin.
Peace
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One thing I notice with some folks here - when you disagree with THEM, they say you disagree with the Quran itself. They say their views are 'quranic' or 'according to the quran' or 'the true view'. These are simply delusions of grandeur. In truth, ALL of us are subjective interpreters of the Quran.
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Salaam,
I am not in the mood to write another lengthy post to clarify my meaning, but I will try to "defend" my interpretation of the Message in short.
Those who are involved, the people who have a connection to the teachings of the "Ibrahimic" religion, all worship the same God, whether it be Christian or Jew, they all follow Islam.
The religion is not bound to this book, this Message have been along all the time, and it is this I try to convey with my posts.
The Message is not reserved for those who understand Arabic, it is a universal message to all mankind. The Message is present in the Bible, it can be present in religious literature and even someone's poem.
The recommendations from God are not particularly hard to follow, just understand the Quran?s/the Message's most important aspects and you are well on your way.
You write like I am in a critical need of guidance, while I am grateful of being one blessed by the Lord.
The most important aspect of the religion is to be a righteous person, a good person from inside out, and you can be that by just searching your feelings and looking for the Light. The Truth will come to the one who is honest with himself and open to it.
Already, as of today, I know enough of the Quran that I can live a good life with the acquired Knowledge. I trust sincere interpreters of the Quran who I can discuss the Quranic passages with that are more knowledgeable of the Arabic language and I know God has given me the ability to see what is true or wrong.
Even the Bible, before I ran into the Quran, taught me well on how to be and behave, as well as my own thoughts and meditation upon life. The Truth is not limited to the Quran only. The Book is a blessing and a mercy from God that He gave a book He composed Himself which is pure from any conjecture, and you can follow it knowing it is from Him who sent you.
I urge you to remove these preconceptions that Islam is a religion which is limited to people who know Arabic, Islam has absolutely nothing to so with Arabic and this culture at all. The Quran was revealed in Arabic while the old Jewish scriptures were in Hebrew and Jesus followers wrote in ancient Greek.
The Message is nothing confined to a certain book, it is something that came from God and any person can follow His Message. It is a lifestyle and not a set of rules, except for three major ones like I wrote previously. Jesus followed the Quranic teachings, the Message and the book in its physical form was not even written yet. And other messengers of old also lived by the same teachings, the Quranic Message has been present all the time.
I will be so frank as to say that I was a Muslim even before I read the Quran, that is my view of the Truth. This book or name of religion means nothing, when defining a righteous Believer. The Islam is like I said not the name of a religion but a lifestyle which you can follow by embracing the Message.
The Book is at it claims itself, a blessing and a guide to mankind, a help for one who seek more Wisdom and Knowledge, but to say you cannot reach Heaven without it is a bit ignorant to be honest.
Islam is nothing you can join, it is something you are, or a Truth you seek. I am here on this forum because these people give me lot of Wisdom and Knowledge, I can divide the Truth from falsehood myself. I "stumbled across" the Quran, and I use it as a source of religious teachings, but I do not look on the Truth the way you do.
You indirectly call me arrogant, but look at yourself. Those choices of words show pretty much.
I accept that you wish to believe Islam is limited to a group of people and I am not saying you are less knowledgeable than me, but we certainly do not have the same approach. You seem proud of your alleged knowledge and that is dangerous, if you know the scripture.
And please do not twist my words, I said people of religions other than God's religion are other. I did not admit I am other, I gave you the opportunity to use whatever you wish.
And atheists are not divinely guided, it was the kind of guidance I am talking about, of course. The majority of mankind does not follow the guidance if the have the opportunity, it does not only include disbelievers. God can have your eyes opened and guide you if you actively search for the Truth, thus giving an atheist guidance, although he is probably not an atheist any longer as he searches for answers in the divine.
Ok, now my post managed to become as long as I did not want it to become. It was not my intention.
Okay, I will too end the discussion after this post.
God bless you