Harassment of Quran aloners for being kuffar
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Peace be unto you.
There are two verses in the Quran which seem to support the notion that one will not be held accountable for hiding his faith if he is under a real threat of persecution to his life
Whoever disbelieves in God after his belief, except one who is forced while his heart is content with faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief, then upon them is the wrath of God and for them is a grievous punishment. (16106)
And a believing man from the family of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith said "Will you kill a man because he says, "My Lord is God"?... (402
But in dire circumstances, from my understanding, he should first try to migrate to somewhere else
And whoever emigrates in the way of God, will find in the Earth places of much refuge and abundance. And whoever forsakes his home as an emigrant to God and His messenger and death overtakes him, his reward is then incumbent on God. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Merciful. (4100)
Indeed, those who believed and emigrated and strove with their wealth and their lives in the way of God, and those who took them in and helped them some of these are protecting friends one of another. And those who believed but did not emigrate, you have no duty to protect them till they emigrate. And if they seek help from you in the matter of religion then it is your duty to help (them) except against a people between whom and you there is a treaty. And God is Seer of what you do. (872)
O My servants who believe! Indeed, My Earth is spacious, therefore only serve Me! Every soul shall have a taste of death. Then to Us you will be brought back. (2956-57)
But not everyone has the means to migrate. For them there is an exception
Except the feeble/oppressed among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way. As for such, it may be that God will pardon them. God is Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving. (498-99)
Peace.
Good post. bravo
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What do you mean, sister?
If anyone saw me, I will act just like ordinary Sunni.I do traditional salat, attending Jum'uah prayer, n another Sunni teaching.
But, If no anyone saw me.I don't do all the Sunni's instead I do my Quran alone teaching, like do Quranist salat etc.This is what I mean.Why I play hide and seek?
I lived in a area which Sunni was like a sacralization.If I do Quran alone teaching openly.I will get cosequence"mocked n abandoned by family, neighboors and friends"Peace Earthdom,
I agree with you. All of this depends on each circumstance given the context of the country, culture and so on. Allah swt knows our sincerity and our intentions and He is not a tyrant - I sometimes think He is depicted this way, Glory to Him above all that is associated with Him. Allah swt is oft forgiving first and I believe the sternness of some words are to reiterate that there are some people who have no care for God, no love and even possibly a hate. I believe the harshest words are for them, Allah's Mercy and understanding towards each of us is like no other. He truly knows what each individual goes through and it is possible that He opens up many different ways and opportunities for people in all different ways. We were never meant to be all the same, all doing the same thing, with the same thoughts.
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I dont know how to put this.. I know a Pakistani man married to an afghani woman. Now this man is a quran aloner, first he was it secretly but after a discussion with a sunni imam everybody knows this now... and most afghani sunnis in his area are after him now, they call him KAFIR and say that his children are illegitimate children because a marriage to a muslim and a non muslim man (his wife is sunni and he as a quran aloner a kafir) is not recognized under sharia, and his children are bullied by other afghani kids and adults for having a kafir father and being b-astards. And when he reacts even the non-muslims criticize him for being ''aggressive'' and ''overreacting''. He just cant take it anymore and he told me his story so I thought I would ask for some advice here as most of you are quran aloners as well. He is now considering lying to everybody about having returned to sunnism just to get peace and regain his good reputation.
What do you guys say?
Assalamu alaikum,
The entire story is a mess and shows the immaturity and lack of civility of lay Muslims. No one seems to be exhibiting conduct and civility that is enjoined by Islam (being bullied by Afghan kids and adults?! and children being called bastards?!) and the hundreds of thousands of ahadeeth that enjoin, enforce and regulate proper behavior towards others. Allah ta'ala ordered the Prophet Moses to speak kindly to Lord Pharaoh, and the Prophet Muhammad (saws) spoke kindly to the Jewish woman who sent him a poisoned lamb.
Apostates in the life of the Prophet (saws) were sometimes executed, other times condemned as hypocrites who continue to swerve between disbelief and imaan, or other times granted exile to sort themselves out. In this case, however, this is not a case of aggressive or deliberate apostasy that deserves prescribed execution, even though theologically the Pakistani man has committed outright disbelief by rejecting the Sunnah. Orthodox Muslim scholars like Sheikh Saalih bin Fawzaan bin 'Abdullaah Al-Fawzaan enjoined (in their naseehas and fatwas) that confused, heretical Muslims be kindly and firmly admonished with strong words of pure reason, revelation and wisdom in order to bring them back to that which will protect them from the Hellfire.
I read in one fatwah where the Sheikh was questioned about the permissibility of calling the grave-worshipper a "mushrik" right to his face, and the Sheikh instead ordered that grave-worshippers be treated carefully and spoken with professionally in order to bring them back to Islam by making them realize that they are committing shirk (and NOT accusing them of being mushrikeen) and helping them understand the monotheistic responsibility of their Muslim names (by calling them by their Muslim names such as Abdullah, Fulaan, etc). Similarly, this Pakistan man should be handled by knowledgeable scholars and left alone by the public until he has been sorted out in his deviation. What good does the society do in constantly condemning him and bullying his children? Is this what Allah revealed the Qur'an and left us with the best example of human conduct and guidance, the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws), meant to do? They are doing nothing but convincing the Quranite of the strength of his views and the weakness of theirs, and making more harm than good, and following more evil than Islam.
In my community of orthodox Muslims, I remember dealing with a convert that came from the country side to embrace Islam. After a couple of months of struggling to practise Islam he left the religion and returned to Christianity, and everyone left him alone and told him to do whatever he wants ignore No body bothered to see him, cared about him or even mentioned him again... And no body spoke with him except me (minus a couple of drugged brothers who previously called him and yelled "F*** YOU" "WE'RE GONNA BASH YAH!" and hung up -).
I visited the apostate in a mall and he started the conversation by showing me he was in complete peace and found the truth again, "I have Jesus in my heart! Before, when I was a Muslim, I could not stop committing sins such as swearing or losing my temper or keep myself away from women." I replied, "I am glad you have found yourself and found peace in your heart, and I am sorry that you were not satisfied with Islam. So may I ask what truth you found in Christianity, when you left it to come to us in the first place?" The first subject he opened was, and the answer he gave to my inquiry, "Did you know that if you were a true Muslim believer, you would kill me right now!" and I replied, "Don't you know that in our religion we also believe in proper procedural justice and legal court systems? Don't you know that we are more advanced in our civilization than the Romans and Byzantines that surrounded us, and that the court systems here copied our legal models in the Victorian era after we brought down nearly all of Europe to its knees?" He excused himself to go to the public toilet. Then instead of returning to the cafe where I was waiting for him to continue our conversation, he literally ran away to the other side of the mall and caught a taxi rotfl
Anyways, in any religious Muslim country, any person who is considered to be an apostate will undoubtedly be treated badly by almost everyone around him. He will suffer unnecessary hardships and mass condemnations from the Muslims around him, from his family members, from his employer(s), and being unable to live or do anything peacefully. If he was dependent on his Muslim employer, then he will be fired from work and turned towards poverty. How will he work and how he will survive, socialize and live his life? Even do what he wants to do now that he is free from Islam! This is why the Shariah is (unarguably) a mercy and a wisdom in that such a person should either be threatened with execution or exile. I confirm this for an apostate who has left Islam outright in the face of the Muslim society. But that Pakistani man is more like the case of a Muslim grave-worshipper, both of whom are spiritually apostates, and he should be treated as someone who needs to be corrected or dealt with accordingly, not abused more and made to flee from Islam into apostacy completely.
Yes, there are recognized different levels of kufr (disbelief) and shirk (deviation from monotheism); and his level of kufr is not the same as an apostate who says, "I don't believe in Islam any more! I have turned my life to Jesus Christ!" He still says, "I am a Muslim and I believe in the Qur'an, but I reject your massive piles of hadiths, and I was having headaches from hearing about them!" So we don't need to give the Quranite more headaches, confusions and (condemning) hadith after (crazy) hadith after (more) hadith... But good treatment, knowledge and arguments that comes from the Qur'an and the Sunnah )
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Salam sister
Where is your friend living? Sadly this becomes an issue in this case. If he is living in Pakistan/Afghanistan he should be very careful. He does not only have himself to think of but his children and wife. He should take 328 into careful consideration because of the threat towards him. Allah knows what is in his heart so he should never think otherwise that the final judgement will not be in his favour......But I do not think Allah would like that because of his actions the result is a broken family or even worse..........orphans.......
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What do you mean, sister?
If anyone saw me, I will act just like ordinary Sunni.I do traditional salat, attending Jum'uah prayer, n another Sunni teaching.
But, If no anyone saw me.I don't do all the Sunni's instead I do my Quran alone teaching, like do Quranist salat etc.This is what I mean.Why I play hide and seek?
I lived in a area which Sunni was like a sacralization.If I do Quran alone teaching openly.I will get cosequence"mocked n abandoned by family, neighboors and friends"Salam,
I don't say you have to teach Quran alone openly. But could't you just stay away from payers where you have to act in a way you wouldn't if no others were around? For me, it looks like praying to be seen, not praying for God. That's why I mentioned 107. -
Salaam,
@Earthdom
Do you care this much about others bro? I am really surprised. May Allah protect you. Please take a look at 4143. What you are doing is too dangerous &@Reee
I agree with her on both of her posts handshakeMay Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Salam,
I don't say you have to teach Quran alone openly. But could't you just stay away from payers where you have to act in a way you wouldn't if no others were around? For me, it looks like praying to be seen, not praying for God. That's why I mentioned 107.Peace sister. peace
Yes I will do like you say if I live in Germany.I have some dark past before, and I already experienced to be abandoned by people many years, and my relation with my family is not too good.
Yes, it's a silly idea, to do salat just for seen by people, but like @Farabi says, in state of emergency, we can hide our teaching for our safety.
Did you know, what happened to Quran alone in here?
In 2012, Yatain (Yayasan Tauhid Indonesia) an Quranist organization under dr Minardi Mursyid, was bom molotoved by Sunni gang, and their base was forced to close by Sunni Autharity (Majelis Ulama Indonesia)
Do you care this much about others bro? I am really surprised. May Allah protect you. Please take a look at 4143. What you are doing is too dangerous
You live in India right? Are you follow Quran alone withouth problem?
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Assalamu alaikum,
The entire story is a mess and shows the immaturity and lack of civility of lay Muslims. No one seems to be exhibiting conduct and civility that is enjoined by Islam (being bullied by Afghan kids and adults?! and children being called bastards?!) and the hundreds of thousands of ahadeeth that enjoin, enforce and regulate proper behavior towards others. Allah ta'ala ordered the Prophet Moses to speak kindly to Lord Pharaoh, and the Prophet Muhammad (saws) spoke kindly to the Jewish woman who sent him a poisoned lamb.
Peace Shadowscholar,
Thanks for providing your opinions.
Are you saying that among the Imams etc this man could have some sort of protection - so he could seek 'protection' from them?
Apostates in the life of the Prophet (saws) were sometimes executed, other times condemned as hypocrites who continue to swerve between disbelief and imaan, or other times granted exile to sort themselves out. In this case, however, this is not a case of aggressive or deliberate apostasy that deserves prescribed execution, even though theologically the Pakistani man has committed outright disbelief by rejecting the Sunnah. Orthodox Muslim scholars like Sheikh Saalih bin Fawzaan bin 'Abdullaah Al-Fawzaan enjoined (in their naseehas and fatwas) that confused, heretical Muslims be kindly and firmly admonished with strong words of pure reason, revelation and wisdom in order to bring them back to that which will protect them from the Hellfire.
You see, that would be the thing, that would go against the Quran - killing apostates and such.
What would happen if this man looks at what the argument for the sunnah of Muhammad and still rejects most of the hadith because he believes it contradicts the Quran?I read in one fatwah where the Sheikh was questioned about the permissibility of calling the grave-worshipper a "mushrik" right to his face, and the Sheikh instead ordered that grave-worshippers be treated carefully and spoken with professionally in order to bring them back to Islam by making them realize that they are committing shirk (and NOT accusing them of being mushrikeen) and helping them understand the monotheistic responsibility of their Muslim names (by calling them by their Muslim names such as Abdullah, Fulaan, etc). Similarly, this Pakistan man should be handled by knowledgeable scholars and left alone by the public until he has been sorted out in his deviation. What good does the society do in constantly condemning him and bullying his children? Is this what Allah revealed the Qur'an and left us with the best example of human conduct and guidance, the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws), meant to do? They are doing nothing but convincing the Quranite of the strength of his views and the weakness of theirs, and making more harm than good, and following more evil than Islam.
This man hasn't committed shirk though, he believes in the Quran, but he doesn't believe in the institutionalised approach to Islam. Why can't he be left with his beliefs even if you don't think he is a Muslim, why not let Allah swt decide between us our differences because this disagreement will always continue from the looks of it. Or do you believe that he should be left alone even if he discusses with the scholars and doesn't agree? In the Quran, it's Pharoah that wants to persecute Moses and his followers for their beliefs, from what I recall, a secret believer in Pharoah's court says, why can't we just let them be, if they are wrong, they will be held to account, if they are not, then they provided us with the clear and gentle warning etc.
In my community of orthodox Muslims, I remember dealing with a convert that came from the country side to embrace Islam. After a couple of months of struggling to practise Islam he left the religion and returned to Christianity, and everyone left him alone and told him to do whatever he wants ignore No body bothered to see him, cared about him or even mentioned him again... And no body spoke with him except me (minus a couple of drugged brothers who previously called him and yelled "F*** YOU" "WE'RE GONNA BASH YAH!" and hung up -).
I visited the apostate P in a mall and he started the conversation by showing me he was in complete peace and found the truth again, "I have Jesus in my heart! Before, when I was a Muslim, I could not stop committing sins such as swearing or losing my temper or keep myself away from women." I replied, "I am glad you have found yourself and found peace in your heart, and I am sorry that you were not satisfied with Islam. So may I ask what truth you found in Christianity, when you left it to come to us in the first place?" The first subject he opened was, and the answer he gave to my inquiry, "Did you know that if you were a true Muslim believer, you would kill me right now!" and I replied, "Don't you know that in our religion we also believe in proper procedural justice and legal court systems? Don't you know that we are more advanced in our civilization than the Romans and Byzantines that surrounded us, and that the court systems here copied our legal models in the Victorian era after we brought down nearly all of Europe to its knees?" He excused himself to go to the public toilet. Then instead of returning to the cafe where I was waiting for him to continue our conversation, he literally ran away to the other side of the mall and caught a taxi rotfl
Do you know if he ever came across Quran only?
Anyways, in any religious Muslim country, any person who is considered to be an apostate will undoubtedly be treated badly by almost everyone around him. He will suffer unnecessary hardships and mass condemnations from the Muslims around him, from his family members, from his employer(s), and being unable to live or do anything peacefully. If he was dependent on his Muslim employer, then he will be fired from work and turned towards poverty. How will he work and how he will survive, socialize and live his life? Even do what he wants to do now that he is free from Islam! This is why the Shariah is (unarguably) a mercy and a wisdom in that such a person should either be threatened with execution or exile. I confirm this for an apostate who has left Islam outright in the face of the Muslim society. But that Pakistani man is more like the case of a Muslim grave-worshipper, both of whom are spiritually apostates, and he should be treated as someone who needs to be corrected or dealt with accordingly, not abused more and made to flee from Islam into apostacy completely.
The situation can still vary from country to country. This particular scenario sounds more like a particular group of Afghans have developed a type of mob mentality in this scenario.
If the only issue were socialising, I wouldn't say its a problem. I'm not sure if that's controversial, but that's just my opinion. If the people around you are that bigoted, its amazing what you can save yourself from if you keep your distance. In terms of employment, family and the threat of violence that he may feel - I'm not sure violence was said explicitly or not but its not unknown - but this means that its not just him he's thinking about and he needs to take into account if there is any other avenue or way he can go about this. I believe when Allah swt mentions migration, it is in a specific context but we can learn from it, but lets face it, not everyone has the means to migrate.
I mean should I migrate because taxes are spent on wars which are unIslamic and completely unethical and immoral in the West? Well, these types of wars could happen in any country, including those that call themselves Islamic etc, plenty of money spent of 'defence' there too. So we have to take each individual circumstance into account. I know you might not have mentioned that but I'm adding that as its become a topic in this discussion.
He's still following Islam, just not your definition.
Are people implying that Allah swt is not pleased with our efforts if we follow Quran only? If this was the case, then why weren't the hadith part of the Quran or recorded right at the time in Muhammad's life? I know you have your own answers, but to one who attempts to look at the way the Message has been preserved in the Quran, then we see a clear distinction from hadith, the way the Quran calls itself a hadith (I'm sure you're familiar with this) etc and hadith share things which go against or outside the Quran.
Yes, there are recognized different levels of kufr (disbelief) and shirk (deviation from monotheism); and his level of kufr is not the same as an apostate who says, "I don't believe in Islam any more! I have turned my life to Jesus Christ!" He still says, "I am a Muslim and I believe in the Qur'an, but I reject your massive piles of hadiths, and I was having headaches from hearing about them!" So we don't need to give the Quranite more headaches, confusions and (condemning) hadith after (crazy) hadith after (more) hadith... But good treatment, knowledge and arguments that comes from the Qur'an and the Sunnah )
Why did you call the hadiths crazy? Do you mean from his perspective or do you mean that some of them can be perceived that way?
In terms of more advice for this individual, are there any other people around or near him that even question some of the hadith or scholars in anyway? That way he could get support for his views and a middle ground. It's strange to me that no-one even questions these things, they just do it because everyone else does it. That's exactly what the Quran warns about.
When I've visited some Muslim countries, on the face of it, there has been some diversity, although maybe that was just on the face of it. Back then I didn't discuss Islam or the Quran much either. -
You live in India right? Are you follow Quran alone withouth problem?
Salaam Earthdom,
Yes, I live in India and alhamduliAllah I am living in peace now by my Lord's grace and blessings.
I agree that I had problems initially, but when I stop preaching or telling them forcefully, everything is alright now. I never say anything to anyone, my Deen is to me and their to them. If someone ask me, then I explained him everything in relation to what they ask, I never hide anything at that time. But I never approach to anyone for this purpose.
Many of them know about me, they simply turn their faces when they see me, but others take it easy but they don't like talking to me. Many others don't even know about me. So, alhamduliAllah, I don't have any problem, not even a small one alhamduliAllah hail
I strongly believe in 3120 and always try to implement it in my life, hence no problems, alhamduliAllah.
3120
3120 If good touches you, it distresses them; but if harm strikes you, they rejoice at it. And if you are patient and keep from evil , not the least harm will their cunning do to you. Indeed, Allah is encompassing of what they do.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Geez, Supportpeacenotwar. You asked for my perspective as a devoted Sunni but I never asked you for confrontation >(
Anyways... Here goes.
Peace Shadowscholar,
Thanks for providing your opinions.
Are you saying that among the Imams etc this man could have some sort of protection - so he could seek 'protection' from them?
You see, that would be the thing, that would go against the Quran - killing apostates and such.
What would happen if this man looks at what the argument for the Sunnah of Muhammad and still rejects most of the Hadith because he believes it contradicts the Quran?I am glad I can do something to help others D
Then he needs to be handled, as I previous mentioned, by qualified and professional scholars who can arrange series of discussions with him, visits and necessary materials to share with him in order to show him how people in his circumstances were handled in the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and the history of Islam. This is simply, however, one of the questions he has in his doubts of ahadeeth. What do you mean that he can find "protection" from any Imaams? Does anybody ever obey Imams nowadays as if they were martial arts masters or police officers? Obviously that is not possible unless a particular Imam has connection with the authorities, like the Mufti in Saudi Arabia. The best Muslim leaders can usually do is warn the general public to fear Allah and not to mistreat any individual, especially a heretic under their theological treatment.
This man hasn't committed shirk though, he believes in the Quran, but he doesn't believe in the institutionalised approach to Islam. Why can't he be left with his beliefs even if you don't think he is a Muslim, why not let Allah swt decide between us our differences because this disagreement will always continue from the looks of it. Or do you believe that he should be left alone even if he discusses with the scholars and doesn't agree? In the Quran, it's Pharoah that wants to persecute Moses and his followers for their beliefs, from what I recall, a secret believer in Pharoah's court says, why can't we just let them be, if they are wrong, they will be held to account, if they are not, then they provided us with the clear and gentle warning etc.
The scholars of Islam have two approach with such a person. We can either invalidate the man's claim to Islam based on his doctrinal difference which takes him outside of the fold of Islam (because of his rejection of ahadeeth in this case) or because of his giving up of as-Salaat. The former needs to be investigated on an individual basis because this is not an organized group that could be approached as such, but more like individuals from time to time who develop heretical ideas about the religion and some of those ideas undoubtedly take them out of the fold of Islam but they maintain appearance (for the most part) of the Muslim. The best treatment for these individuals in Islamic state is that, after persistent refusal of scholarly assessment, they are sentenced to imprisonment for a short period of time (maximum 12 months is sufficient), given 40 stripes (to warn such heretic of greater punishment in the Hereafter), or treated with medication if the scholarly as well as circumstantial assessment reveals evidence of psychological abnormality (and most of the time you can only do that if the individual is in jail). As for the latter, any Muslim who gives up As-Salaat is already considered to be an infidel by unanimous agreement of the scholars (even if he was still carrying the label of a Sunni) including the Four Imams of the Sunnah. So he can considered to be an apostate because of his refusal to return to as-Salaat and if he was living under Islamic state, he can be warned of execution if he does not return to Islam and performing the Five Obligatory Prayers. This is why in Saudi Arabia where the penalty for execution is enforced every single Muslim individual, no matter how sinful or heretical, establishes the Salaat.
Do you know if he ever came across Quran only?
No, the apostate-who-reverted-to-Christianity never did but neither did he care because he was only a Muslim for a few months and he never read the Qur'an to my knowledge. He would only memorize principles and teachings from a more knowledgeable brother who was teaching the converts back then. None of the converts, not even myself, actually even cared about learning Arabic (when offered) to learn the Qur'an. To be honest, we were all young, controlled by Satan and our hormones, and I was the only one who did not apostate whereas the rest of converts, including the one who soon reverted to Christianity, apostatized one way or another. I notice apostasy amongst converts is more common than Muslims think because Western society where everyone are busily making their living (instead of Eastern society where the elderlies are sometimes summoned to deal with a civil problem) ignores them or simply don't care about young converts who are alone, especially if these converts are not wealthy or popular in their own spheres. I remember pretentiously apostatizing, in my times of very disillusionment with "institutionalised Islam", no body really cared as if I was just a convert who comes and go like the rest of them. The apathy of Sunnis can really sicken me. It's bad enough when they are constantly condemning people around them to Hell, the women (no matter the age () all around them as being harlots, and the heretics as being devils in disguise (instead of checking out whether they are open to Daa'wah and correction). Also, they ignore Quranites and pretend that they don't exist; and this is something I have differed in my approach, being of a more social nature, and which is why I joined this forum in the first place to witness the growing phenomenon of Qur'an-only and what is driving the movement.
The situation can still vary from country to country. This particular scenario sounds more like a particular group of Afghans have developed a type of mob mentality in this scenario.
If the only issue were socialising, I wouldn't say its a problem. I'm not sure if that's controversial, but that's just my opinion. If the people around you are that bigoted, its amazing what you can save yourself from if you keep your distance. In terms of employment, family and the threat of violence that he may feel - I'm not sure violence was said explicitly or not but its not unknown - but this means that its not just him he's thinking about and he needs to take into account if there is any other avenue or way he can go about this. I believe when Allah swt mentions migration, it is in a specific context but we can learn from it, but lets face it, not everyone has the means to migrate.
Even normal Muslims around me forced me to "migrate" to suburbs where there aren't any Muslims to control me and my life, tell me what to do, judge me, criticize me or direct me against my will and treat me like I was a 5-year-old. Unfortunately, this happens to Muslims mostly who want to assimilate with the rest of society out of the social human nature (against loneliness and isolation) like myself. However, as for violence, well... If any Muslim dares to call me a heretic or accuses me of approaching the edge of infidelity or immorality (as I am sometimes accused so when I am befriending the opposite sex and non-Muslims in front of strict/orthodox/close-minded/fanatic Muslims >(), then I am happy to use gestures of violence in accordance with the severity of the accusation made against me. I cannot say same for the Pakistani man who might not be in good physical shape to defend himself or who might never have went to training in martial arts.
I mean should I migrate because taxes are spent on wars which are unIslamic and completely unethical and immoral in the West? Well, these types of wars could happen in any country, including those that call themselves Islamic etc, plenty of money spent of 'defence' there too. So we have to take each individual circumstance into account. I know you might not have mentioned that but I'm adding that as its become a topic in this discussion.
He's still following Islam, just not your definition.
Definitely not in my definition, but as for someone who approaches the situation rationally, academically, and theologically as opposed to lay Muslims who approach everything in black-and-white-terms he needs a serious, scholarly treatment that will help him realize his mistakes. He simply needs to be "shaken up" more intellectually than emotionally and realize what Islam is all about. I am sure all orthodox scholars will agree with me on this, and like I said he will not be considered to be an apostate worthy of execution but worthy of enforced reconstitution. Heresy is problem of correspondingly complicated degrees and needs to be challenged by the professional Muslim scholars.
Are people implying that Allah swt is not pleased with our efforts if we follow Quran only? If this was the case, then why weren't the hadith part of the Quran or recorded right at the time in Muhammad's life? I know you have your own answers, but to one who attempts to look at the way the Message has been preserved in the Quran, then we see a clear distinction from hadith, the way the Quran calls itself a hadith (I'm sure you're familiar with this) etc and hadith share things which go against or outside the Quran.
The best and most brief answer I will give if the situation crosses my path "Are you in the right frame of mind? How can you be seriously pleasing Allah ta'ala by rejecting what He declares in the Qur'an when He orders us to follow the Messenger as well? So you cannot be Qur'an-only, when doing that violates the very words and commandments of the Qur'an itself. You're being blatantly irrational!"
I will need to give a separate, detailed reply on this breaking point of difference between the orthodox system and the Qur'an-only doctrine, if time permits insha'Allah.
Why did you call the hadiths crazy? Do you mean from his perspective or do you mean that some of them can be perceived that way?
I mean in his perspective and in the perspective of individuals who from time to time feels annoyed and tired of listening to Islamic teachings that might be difficult for them to handle or understand. Honestly, even I sometimes feel like we are treated like children when we are exposed to re-teaching or a mild form of reprimand by "negative hadiths".
In terms of more advice for this individual, are there any other people around or near him that even question some of the hadith or scholars in anyway? That way he could get support for his views and a middle ground. It's strange to me that no-one even questions these things, they just do it because everyone else does it. That's exactly what the Qur'an warns about.
When I've visited some Muslim countries, on the face of it, there has been some diversity, although maybe that was just on the face of it. Back then I didn't discuss Islam or the Quran much either.I have always posited pressing questions about what I do not understand, or what I initially find difficult to accept, from what is stated in the Qur'an or what is mentioned in various ahadeeth. We all go through this in life, don't we? If you are asking me this question from the scholarly perspective, however, then I can see you are not aware of the scholars who stir up different opinions in their approach to varying grades of ahadeeth and even towards the standardized system of hadith verification. One good example is the famous scholar of Hadith Sheikh Muhammad Nasirudeen Al-Albani, who is considered by some to be Al-Bukhari II. Al-Albani accomplished a mammoth task of critically analyzing and plowing through all the ahadeeth, akin to "textual criticism" in the definition of Bible scholars and specialists in historiography, and almost literally turning the books and volumes of all the ahadeeth upside down. Al-Albani discovered a few potential weaknesses in the collection of Al-Bukhari, which he courageously divulged, and differed through his systematic verification of hadith in that he graded certain ahadith differently from the scholars of Hadith before him.
I know my replies are quite brief and succinct, and I apologize for not going into more detail. But for now, I hope I have helped )
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I live in the unites states in a town where racism runs deep as only handful of people living here are nonwhite. If you are not a gun toting, bible carrying republican then you are not considered an American here. i have thought about moving but this is where i need to be for now. I don't talk about my beliefs unless people ask me what I believe in and I answer their questions. Actually I like it when people ask wanting to know as it gives me an opportunity to talk about God's religion and man invented religions/lies told about God. I have over time developed friendships and embraced by the community as I just basically try to do what God tells me to do. Taking God's guidance has been a good thing for me thus far. I interact socializing and being a part of the community but i don't drink, eat pork, of course don't go to church or wear bikini at the beach. Of course there is pressure and am teased but I am a muslim anyplace i go. when i hear people talking about killing "faggots" blacks, muslims and such, i ask is that what jesus taught - hatred, bigotry, racism? Is that what they teach in Sunday school?
When visiting family back home in India, the last time i didn't wear hijab, burqa and such. I asked my mom why should i or would i wear a hijab? What am I afraid of? And when my one cousin asked me to send her English translation of the Koran, well i guess that i am rebel with a cause. even if I lived in that society, I know me all too well as I still would have taken up a stance. I think reading the Koran can be a dangerous thing at times.
I am yet to finish writing to my uncle explaining to him why I don't wear hijab, don't pray and fast like he does and why i eat meat sold at local grocery stores and at restaurants as he asked me why I no longer am a "practicing" muslim. My dad doesn't agree and been discouraging me but I don't agree with my dad.
my dad still goes to the mosque every week. He listens to people telling him what he should believe and what he should do and he just nods and says "yes, yes brother" or "oh really, is that what God said? Ok brother." It works for my dad but not for me. The first time I stood up to an imam, well I gained much notoriety. many people are just too afraid to speak up and say, hey this is not right or this doesn't make sense or this is not what God said.... Or even question what is taught.
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Geez, Supportpeacenotwar. You asked for my perspective as a devoted Sunni but I never asked you for confrontation >(
I know my replies are quite brief and succinct, and I apologize for not going into more detail. But for now, I hope I have helped )
That's the only reason I asked you to respond, Shadowscholar.
Those are really detailed replies, I will have to get back to it later when I get more time.
In terms of the point brought up here about interacting with those displaying bigotry, there are Quran verses we can quote that state things like don't sit with them and be among them if they are condescending and mocking - that's my paraphrasing and other behaviours could be included - but there is a verse about this. Again, I believe this is to be applied to each situation separately and may not apply to all situations as any time you talk to people about Islam they could talk very unpleasantly about it but you can still carry on talking with them. It's not a one size fits all in terms of applying the Quran - I'm not saying anyone here is necessarily saying that, but this is something common among humans and I have sometimes found myself thinking along those lines occasionally in the past. I think only the individual in question and Allah swt understand the nuances of the situation, the experiences someone has gone through and the boundary that people may wish to draw.
Where I live, racism is palapable at times - or at least preference for your own ethnicity whether or not thats racism - although there are open minded people as well, but I personally, would not develop close relationships with those who have bigoted attitudes. I would definitely keep things civil and even friendly, but in remembering Allah, I always feel that some people and places are void of anything to do with Him - not sure how to describe it. We all know what 'boundaries' we wouldn't cross for ourselves and things like that, so once we start applying the guidance in the Quran as though all should do things in a certain type of way we are no different from the Sunnis. Shia etc. Maybe appreciating these differences and accepting them is another aspect of peace and a peaceful approach.
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Peace Maha,
I really do feel sympathy for him. As Reee and others have mentioned, does he live in the West or elsewhere? That could change how easy it is for him to stay away that kind of crowd or even remove himself from there if he needs to. If his children are young, I can understand why he'd feel a real motivation to say he'll just accept. Being bullied as a child or any age is one of the most horrible things that he wants to protect his family from and not feel like its because of him that this is all happening. I hope he doesn't blame himself in any way, it most certainly isn't his fault.
Does anyone at all, I think Reee asked about his wife, give him any support or understanding? If so, then it may be more feasible that he just sort of waits this out. I'm not sure anyone in a situation like this should get their hopes up about people understanding. You just don't know if they will. Some people seem to want to torment other people and no matter how good or nice you are too them, they give you nastiness back. This seems to come down to hatred and mob mentality.
As others have said, there are several choices here. Only he will know, after seeking help from Allah, best course of action for himself. Allah is Ever Merciful, so I believe he will most certainly receive guidance and if he decides with sincerity to Allah, I know whatever someone chooses, if they are sincere to Him, then Allah is most understanding to all the particulars of a situation.
I would also like to add this verse And, behold, with every hardship comes ease verily, with every hardship comes ease! (945-6)
I hope this helps, sister, Insha'Allah.
Sorry for the late reply sister. He actually lives in the UK but he lives in an area where most of the residence are pakistanis and some afghani pathans. And his two daughters are in their early teens. And yes of course the best solution would be if he moved to london or another place free of sunnis, but its just the principle why do WE have to change our lives because of the sunnis? I mean, if he moved with his family it would be a reminder to everyone in the sunni community that this is what happens to people who become kafirs. Another thing is that his wife is still a sunni, and her sunni friends try to convince her to divorce him as she is not allowed to stay with a kafir. How dare they call someone (especially someone who follows the quran) for kafir? But the sunnis say that believing in Allah and quran is not enough, you would also have to believe in Muhammad as the last and final messanger and by rejecting Sunnah you are rejecting muhammad thus a quran aloner is a murdad kafir (a infidel apostate).
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Salam sister
Where is your friend living? Sadly this becomes an issue in this case. If he is living in Pakistan/Afghanistan he should be very careful. He does not only have himself to think of but his children and wife. He should take 328 into careful consideration because of the threat towards him. Allah knows what is in his heart so he should never think otherwise that the final judgement will not be in his favour......But I do not think Allah would like that because of his actions the result is a broken family or even worse..........orphans.......
Salam brother. He lives in the UK in a ''ghetto'' full of sunni pakistanis and some afghanis as well. You know that UK is full of pakistanis and UK has a huge problem with sunni fundamentalism. Hizbut tahrir stands relatively strong in UK in sunni areas. I once spoke to a member of hizbut tahrir who openly told me that all quran aloners would be considered apostates and executed if khalifah is established (he thought I was a sunni like him as I didnt revealed my religiosity)
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Peace.
Everyone has his own journey in the path of Allah. In the case of someone like him, being in a sunni community, been part of the system for long, has a family, children and living in the environment, from my experience and people I know having the same ordeal, his choice is a no choice situation.
The sunni institution is rather harsh. The institutional tentacles firmly hold your belief, fate, grip, action and decision. But it depends on the position of his spouse, his children and his relatives and friends if he decides to take his family away from the community. Are there supporters?
If not, before long, you realized you have been left alone. Allah alone. Quran alone. You alone. I have gone through this. I am surprised this happens in the UK environment.
Can we use his case to stand up together and struggle in the way of Allah by stating our position that we have the right to live in peace with our own belief system? This sunni system has been transgressing too far too long.
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Hizbut tahrir stands relatively strong in UK in sunni areas. I once spoke to a member of hizbut tahrir who openly told me that all quran aloners would be considered apostates and executed if khalifah is established (he thought I was a sunni like him as I didnt revealed my religiosity)
I didn't realize if Hizbut Tahrir has branches in the UK, too.In my country they also have a branch.I always reading their articles in the phamplet after Salat Jum'uah.
I already watch them in TV and ever have chat with its member in a domestic online forum, especially in their Khilafah system.And now I get the conclusion, if their Khilafah system is not perfect, because there is no single Khilafah govermental system can be found in Quran or hadith, because Quran n hadith only talking about ethics not systematical,ExampleYou cannot find legislative, executive or another govermental system in hadith n Quran.
So if Khilafah is implemented in the future, then there will be more than one version of Khilafah system.So Khilafah is not God system, but man made which tafseered from Quran n Hadith.This is not my own theory, but I quoted from a Liberal Islamist scholar who already debated with Hizbut Tahrir.HT's khilafah is much like Taliban's
The only, what I can suggest to him is "get out" from Hizbut Tahrir led community, because Allah ordered us to leave a place which we was presecutrd in there.
497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said ?What situation were you in?? They said ?We were oppressed on the earth.? They said ?Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it??To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
498 Except for those who were oppressed from the men, women, and children who could not devise a plan nor could be guided to a
way.Salam
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I already watch them in TV and ever have chat with its member in a domestic online forum, especially in their Khilafah system.And now I get the conclusion, if their Khilafah system is not perfect, because there is no single Khilafah govermental system can be found in Quran or hadith, because Quran n hadith only talking about ethics not systematical,
They will invent it. They will use the term "Searching" when they fabricating a hadist. They already create an economical system on indonesia, and hadist is proven fails. It is billion of dollar they wasted for a system called based on sunnah. But the victim wont say anything, in the name of religions.
Search for GTIS if curious.
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Search for GTIS if curious.
Did you mean Global Traders Indonesia Syariah?
I don't think you can blame the system for that. The blame was on MUI (Majelis Ulama Indonesia - Indonesian Ulama Board) alone as someone who didn't understand how the financial work and dare to promote some financial scheme as 'shariah'.For the food stuff they have worked with organizations which have experience in food, drugs, and beverage like BPPOM (Badan Pengawas Obat dan Makanan - Food and Drug Control Board). Why couldn't they work with.. Bank of Indonesia, for example? I meant, they may not agreed with that 'interest' stuff with the conventional bank, however, by working with more experience organization, they could detect fraud so those shameful incident didn't happened.
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They already create an economical system on indonesia,
Search for GTIS if curious.Peace @Farabi
HTI version of economic syariah?? looks like I must know about it too.
Sharia economy also a man made because it's a science which tafseered from Quran n hadithy,.So economic syariah will have some different version.
I have 2 book about Economy Syariah by Universitas Islam Indonesia, and the other is unknown (because missing).That two book explain syariah economy differently with the curve explain in differently too.Btw thanks for mention me about GTIS, recently some finalcial institution use "shariah" label, My self ever attending an accurance institution's launching with the label of Sharia.They're Sharia or fake Sharia I don't know.
The blame was on MUI (Majelis Ulama Indonesia - Indonesian Ulama Board) alone as someone who didn't understand how the financial work and dare to promote some financial scheme as 'shariah'.
Peace @kunderemp.
Unfortunately MUI was already recognized by government as Islamic authrity.This means, the Islam which recognized by gorverment is Islam version of MUI.
But in my point of view, only JIL who can stand against MUI's power, and they can easily recruited new members easily.Because JIL was backed by groups of great advocates, which MUI was confused how to tackle them in the term of laws.@Farabi, @kunderemp, looks like we musn't talking about this in this thread, since it's off topic.
Salam