Harassment of Quran aloners for being kuffar

[justamuslim]

Salam brother. He lives in the UK in a ''ghetto'' full of sunni pakistanis and some afghanis as well. You know that UK is full of pakistanis and UK has a huge problem with sunni fundamentalism. Hizbut tahrir stands relatively strong in UK in sunni areas. I once spoke to a member of hizbut tahrir who openly told me that all quran aloners would be considered apostates and executed if khalifah is established (he thought I was a sunni like him as I didnt revealed my religiosity)

I have family who live in UK and have seen how over the years my uncle and his family have become more fundamental in their thinking and ways. In i were in your friend's case, I would not move out of the area because of people behaving badly.

[Turk87]

Salam my name is Hussein im a messenger of God here is salah peformance Quran Alone

http//salah.hemsida24.se/

if u want to challenge me with ur hadith pleace Email me peace
i will own u in Every question

Alla dident give Gabriel the quran and told him here give this to Mohammad and tell him to folow hadith
Hadith dident even exist in Mohammads time so folowing hadith is a sin

[supportpeacenotwar]

I'm glad you need more time. I missed one objection in your previous post that I almost forgot to address, but at least I remembered now so I hope I have addressed everything by the end of this post! hmm

Your unaddressed question
This is apparently what happened in the first place which led to the man's rejection of the Sunnah in the first place, wasn't it? He must have found through his own research that there were ahadeeth and teachings associated with them that were not compatible with the Qur'an from his perspective?

Since this is hypothetical question, I can only give hypothetical answers; especially because no one should have found incompatibilities between the Qur'an and the Sunnah in the first place! (And this is a recent phenomenon, isn't it, considering that this is starting in our modern age of reason and technology?)

The Quranite needs be shown that the Holy Qur'an and the authentic Sunnah are in complete harmony, as they have always been (historically at least).
He also needs

• revision in the essential principles of aqeedah and the fundamentals of the deen of Islam.

• to be shown the relevant verses of the Qur'an that obligates adherence to the Sunnah and necessitates the canonisation of ahadeeth, as well as answered in his misunderstandings of various hadiths which he feels contradict or violate the Qur'an.

• to be shown that anyone who understands the authentic ahadeeth in a way that challenges the Qur'an is seriously mistaken, and that could be because of misunderstanding the hadiths, or misunderstanding the Qur'an itself, or misunderstanding both the Qur'an and hadiths.

• to be shown that without ahadeeth anyone can subject the Qur'an to his own interpretation and misguidance, and make up his own tafseer without authorisation

In reality, however, I do not know who will care about spoon-feeding him all that education with the required patience and time in the context of one-on-one spiritual couching especially outside of the Islamic universities and dawah institutions. You need the money or government-funded scholarship to learn uloom-ul-hadith (science of hadith) giveup

that's a lot to address. I would also like to clarify that my comment earlier about asking you to respond for a debate was a joke because I thought you were joking with your initial comment.

Quran only and rejecting the hadith is not a recent phenomenon, I haven't looked into the historical record myself but apparently some assert that there were of Quran-only in the past who were persecuted apparently. The extent to which they disagreed with hadith may have differed.

The fact the hadith could only be written quite a while, the most often used number is at least 100 hundred years, after Prophet Muhammad's death shows resistance to hadith and coins that show a different declaration of faith from that in hadith.

In terms of the hadith issue, it is not just about understanding what a point says in the hadith or in the Quran. Putting things into practice and how things actually play out is one of the most important parts. The type of language, 'culture' and practices that surround 'scholar authorised' Islam such as Prophet Muhammad is the 'best of creation' and that your prayers can be nullified by things like women passing in front of you, if I recall that one is sahih. Even if we ignore that, then the actual practice like salat is about performing a ritualistic and robotic style of prayer according to the way scholars stated and that x, y, z can nullify the prayer if it is not performed properly. But the prayer is to God, it's not some type of code you have to crack in order for something to accept it or not. It comes down to that God will not accept anything other than a stringent style of prayer. That doesn't fit with the way the Quran is.

The other point is, given the warning against the religious elites, scholars, those entrusted with scripture etc, why was the biggest chunk of scripture interms of actual practice for Sunnis etc, handed over to the scholars for hundreds of years later to deal with? If you think along that line of thought, questions are raised about why we assume that (most) Muslim scholars are the ones to be trusted above all others including the religious elite in the past - who wanted to kill Jesus, a Prophet, note that is not about Jews but power hungry people regardless of background

Then he needs to be handled, as I previous mentioned, by qualified and professional scholars who can arrange series of discussions with him, visits and necessary materials to share with him in order to show him how people in his circumstances were handled in the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and the history of Islam. This is simply, however, one of the questions he has in his doubts of ahadeeth. What do you mean that he can find "protection" from any Imaams? Does anybody ever obey Imams nowadays as if they were martial arts masters or police officers? Obviously that is not possible unless a particular Imam has connection with the authorities, like the Mufti in Saudi Arabia. The best Muslim leaders can usually do is warn the general public to fear Allah and not to mistreat any individual, especially a heretic under their theological treatment.

Well I was saying that because he went to an Imam in the first instance and that's where it started. So if this whole group comes from one mosque, then its possible that what the Imam says there has some importance, but I don't know the ins and outs of this situation.

The scholars of Islam have two approach with such a person. We can either invalidate the man's claim to Islam based on his doctrinal difference which takes him outside of the fold of Islam (because of his rejection of ahadeeth in this case) or because of his giving up of as-Salaat. The former needs to be investigated on an individual basis because this is not an organized group that could be approached as such, but more like individuals from time to time who develop heretical ideas about the religion and some of those ideas undoubtedly take them out of the fold of Islam but they maintain appearance (for the most part) of the Muslim. The best treatment for these individuals in Islamic state is that, after persistent refusal of scholarly assessment, they are sentenced to imprisonment for a short period of time (maximum 12 months is sufficient), given 40 stripes (to warn such heretic of greater punishment in the Hereafter), or treated with medication if the scholarly as well as circumstantial assessment reveals evidence of psychological abnormality (and most of the time you can only do that if the individual is in jail). As for the latter, any Muslim who gives up As-Salaat is already considered to be an infidel by unanimous agreement of the scholars (even if he was still carrying the label of a Sunni) including the Four Imams of the Sunnah. So he can considered to be an apostate because of his refusal to return to as-Salaat and if he was living under Islamic state, he can be warned of execution if he does not return to Islam and performing the Five Obligatory Prayers. This is why in Saudi Arabia where the penalty for execution is enforced every single Muslim individual, no matter how sinful or heretical, establishes the Salaat.

So this man can believe in the God, the last day and do good, but he is not a Muslim, and cannot even be afforded that name or left alone, even though he has not associated partners with God, and not committed shirk? That doesn't follow with the Quran, what you mentioned seems to follow on from focusing on what the scholars can control such as salat.

Also, they ignore Quranites and pretend that they don't exist; and this is something I have differed in my approach, being of a more social nature, and which is why I joined this forum in the first place to witness the growing phenomenon of Qur'an-only and what is driving the movement.

Insha'Allah, you will come to understand that we are driven by a desire to serve Allah swt in the best way and that, well at least most of us, are seeking the truth contained in the Quran.

If any Muslim dares to call me a heretic or accuses me of approaching the edge of infidelity or immorality (as I am sometimes accused so when I am befriending the opposite sex and non-Muslims in front of strict/orthodox/close-minded/fanatic Muslims >), then I am happy to use gestures of violence in accordance with the severity of the accusation made against me. I cannot say same for the Pakistani man who might not be in good physical shape to defend himself or who might never have went to training in martial arts.

You've called us heretics, so why do you think its ok to do that to us when you wouldn't like it?

Definitely not in my definition, but as for someone who approaches the situation rationally, academically, and theologically as opposed to lay Muslims who approach everything in black-and-white-terms he needs a serious, scholarly treatment that will help him realize his mistakes. He simply needs to be "shaken up" more intellectually than emotionally and realize what Islam is all about. I am sure all orthodox scholars will agree with me on this, and like I said he will not be considered to be an apostate worthy of execution but worthy of enforced reconstitution. Heresy is problem of correspondingly complicated degrees and needs to be challenged by the professional Muslim scholars.

I don't mean to sound abrupt, but someone could say that you need to be "shaken up" too in order to understand what the Quran is actually telling you, the actual lessons that we take away from the Quran and the themes that emerge - one major one is corrupted scripture, by the ones who had power and control over the scripture... why assume because one has label of Muslim scholar that they wouldn't try to corrupt something other than the Quran, because the Quran is perserved? It's not about the label its about the way human beings have behaved on the whole.

The best and most brief answer I will give if the situation crosses my path "Are you in the right frame of mind? How can you be seriously pleasing Allah ta'ala by rejecting what He declares in the Qur'an when He orders us to follow the Messenger as well? So you cannot be Qur'an-only, when doing that violates the very words and commandments of the Qur'an itself. You're being blatantly irrational!"

I think I've already addressed this, although there are other points I would mention but they are in other posts and I'm not sure if you've come across them, about the hadith essentially mimicing Prophet Muhammad and writing down everything he did even though he was a human being and would have sometimes made mistakes as mentioned and corrected by Allah swt in the Quran.

I mean in his perspective and in the perspective of individuals who from time to time feels annoyed and tired of listening to Islamic teachings that might be difficult for them to handle or understand. Honestly, even I sometimes feel like we are treated like children when we are exposed to re-teaching or a mild form of reprimand by "negative hadiths".

The Quran encourages independence and truly searching for how to apply the lessons and message of the Quran. The quran is guidance but the hadith are more about a stringent practice that is all about Prophet Muhammad's life... even how he urinated? ....

But the Quran states we take no Messenger above the other. I think you may say I haven't understood that verse, but actually the principle itself is very straightforward and makes sense, why would we store narration and narration about Prophet Muhammad, when we are only ever supposed to know the lessons and guidance of what happened in their lifetimes as Allah swt ordained and guided, not a scholar.

I have always posited pressing questions about what I do not understand, or what I initially find difficult to accept, from what is stated in the Qur'an or what is mentioned in various ahadeeth. We all go through this in life, don't we? If you are asking me this question from the scholarly perspective, however, then I can see you are not aware of the scholars who stir up different opinions in their approach to varying grades of ahadeeth and even towards the standardized system of hadith verification. One good example is the famous scholar of Hadith Sheikh Muhammad Nasirudeen Al-Albani, who is considered by some to be Al-Bukhari II. Al-Albani accomplished a mammoth task of critically analyzing and plowing through all the ahadeeth, akin to "textual criticism" in the definition of Bible scholars and specialists in historiography, and almost literally turning the books and volumes of all the ahadeeth upside down. Al-Albani discovered a few potential weaknesses in the collection of Al-Bukhari, which he courageously divulged, and differed through his systematic verification of hadith in that he graded certain ahadith differently from the scholars of Hadith before him.

What's interesting in what you say is that only a scholar can do this, not anyone who God gives guidance or blessings to. But Allah swt was the one who taught man what he did not know. This doesn't have to be a direct revelation, if Allah swt gives us blessings, He can give us guidance in many ways.

The other thing is, what you are saying is that God's religion is out of reach from the 'uneducated', therefore the poor have no real independent access to religion. They can't really access the practices that stop one from being a disbeliever because apparently its so dependent on scholars.

Why would God swt say we can know of Him and understand Him, and other things like the resurrection, from the signs in nature and then need all the scholars to figure out what Islam actually is?

[supportpeacenotwar]

Sorry for the late reply sister. He actually lives in the UK but he lives in an area where most of the residence are pakistanis and some afghani pathans. And his two daughters are in their early teens. And yes of course the best solution would be if he moved to london or another place free of sunnis, but its just the principle why do WE have to change our lives because of the sunnis? I mean, if he moved with his family it would be a reminder to everyone in the sunni community that this is what happens to people who become kafirs. Another thing is that his wife is still a sunni, and her sunni friends try to convince her to divorce him as she is not allowed to stay with a kafir. How dare they call someone (especially someone who follows the quran) for kafir? But the sunnis say that believing in Allah and quran is not enough, you would also have to believe in Muhammad as the last and final messanger and by rejecting Sunnah you are rejecting muhammad thus a quran aloner is a murdad kafir (a infidel apostate).

Peace sister,

I also live in the UK and different parts of the country, or sometimes just different communities, have very different experiences. If he's in the UK and his children are older and he can establish if his wife is on board and supportive of him, then the whole process could be a lot easier and he continue as he is and who knows it may calm down itself? I can't say tbh.

I completely agree, we shouldn't have to change our position for others or be called kafir, I mentioned moving away from the situation only if he feared violence. Many other groups even sub culture can hide identity etc because of fear of violence or bigotry. This seems to be a characteristic of some human beings especially when they're a group. In fact, moving away could just mean interacting with them less unless they want civil dialogue otherwise the whole communication process will break down again.

Peace.

Everyone has his own journey in the path of Allah. In the case of someone like him, being in a sunni community, been part of the system for long, has a family, children and living in the environment, from my experience and people I know having the same ordeal, his choice is a no choice situation.

The sunni institution is rather harsh. The institutional tentacles firmly hold your belief, fate, grip, action and decision. But it depends on the position of his spouse, his children and his relatives and friends if he decides to take his family away from the community. Are there supporters?

If not, before long, you realized you have been left alone. Allah alone. Quran alone. You alone. I have gone through this. I am surprised this happens in the UK environment.

Can we use his case to stand up together and struggle in the way of Allah by stating our position that we have the right to live in peace with our own belief system? This sunni system has been transgressing too far too long.

Peace brother,

Good advice, I agree, if his family support him that can make all the difference and because his wife is Sunni that can show that Sunni and Quran only can just let each other be as well.

[Farabi]

Did you mean Global Traders Indonesia Syariah?
I don't think you can blame the system for that. The blame was on MUI (Majelis Ulama Indonesia - Indonesian Ulama Board) alone as someone who didn't understand how the financial work and dare to promote some financial scheme as 'shariah'.

For the food stuff they have worked with organizations which have experience in food, drugs, and beverage like BPPOM (Badan Pengawas Obat dan Makanan - Food and Drug Control Board). Why couldn't they work with.. Bank of Indonesia, for example? I meant, they may not agreed with that 'interest' stuff with the conventional bank, however, by working with more experience organization, they could detect fraud so those shameful incident didn't happened.

Well, it proven that such a hadist about economical system is doesnot exist, but you will see it soon. Its a miracle eh? Hehe.

[Harun]

Peace

I think the best thing for the man to do would be to migrate to a more tolerant region of South Asia, maybe Eastern Pakistan or something else, or he may compromise with others.

But, I think it could be a grave matter if they are really serious... &

Peace Maya
Harun