To Those Who Prohibit Reciting Prophet's Name For Shahadat and Duroot.

JavaLatte

Peace,

We are supposed to interpret God alone very literally -)

God bless you

salaamun alayka brother,

To say it in Quranic words
"but most of them do not know"

May Allah bless you pr
Bender

bold type Oh! TRUE. Very true indeed.

May Allah guide us.

Peace.

milan

Earhtdom,

Are you happier when others are mentioned next to God?

And when GOD alone is remembered, the hearts of those who don't believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when those beside Him are remembered, behold, they rejoice!

They shall say, "Our Lord, you brought us twice to death, and You brought us twice to life. Now we confess our sins. So is there then any way out?"
That is because when GOD alone was invoked, you disbelieved, but if others were associated with Him, you believed. But the judgment belongs to GOD, the Most High, the Most Great.

Is the shahadah in the Quran not good enough for you?

When the hypocrites come to you, they say, "We bear witness that you are indeed the messenger of GOD." And GOD knows that you are indeed His messenger, and GOD bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

And should Muhammad be distinguished from other messengers and prophets?

Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, and Ismail, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the descendants. And in that which was received by Moses and by Jesus, and in that which was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them and to Him we submit."

The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. All believed in GOD, and His angels, and His scriptures, and His messengers. "We make no distinction among any of His messengers," they said, and "We hear, and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate return."

Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, and Ismail, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the descendants, and in that which was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit."

Milan

unknownuser

Salamun'alaikum. sun

After six months joining this forum and already reading some posts in here.I noticed if some Quran alone follower say if reciting Prophet's name like Muhammad, Ibrahim etc is forbidden during recite shahadat, dzikir, or even during Salat or prohibiting write name of Phrophet alongside Allah in the mosque.

But after I reopened my Quran again, I got some points

There is no verse in the Quran which prohibit reciting Phropet's name during salat and writting Prophet's name alongside Allah in the mosque.
But the verses in the Quran was mentioning if we must obey Allah's Rasuls by following the messages they delivering (the Quran).
When we say something like "lailahailallah muhammadurrasulullah (There is no illah (God) beside Allah, Muhammad is Allah rasuls)".

Look by saying something like that, are we going to worship Muhammad or set a equal beside God? Not right.

It's like we honoring our national heroes, is that means we worshipping them? of course not.

It's like Nabi Muhammad, Nabi Muhammad is our beloved Islamic hero who struggling for delivering the message to his ummat.So it's not strange if we honoring him as Allah's rasul.
The conclusion is we aren't worship Muhammad but just honoring his name as a hero.

which prophet? which prophet? which prophet? which prophet? which prophet? which prophet?
your swearing loyalty to that prophet his life before your own

dawngorgeous

It is shirk simply. This is a very simple religion. Each prophet came with the message worship God alone. Ask yourself why you find it difficult to pray to God alone. If you find it difficult not to worship God without thinking about Mohammad, then you are committing shirk. simple. There is nothing to intellectualise about it.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you!

I am sorry if I am reviving an old thread, but I feel it needs to be addressed

There is no verse in the Quran which prohibit reciting Phropet's name during salat and writting Prophet's name alongside Allah in the mosque."

I am afraid you are in clear error.

9107 - 108

Who are the people causing division between the believers? the sectarians (all those calling themselves sunnis, shias, ahmadis, boris, wahabis, salafis, and other such labels too numerous to mention) of course!

Refer to the Quran

631

7194

3513 - 14

When we say something like "lailahailallah muhammadurrasulullah (There is no illah (God) beside Allah, Muhammad is Allah rasuls)"

Look by saying something like that, are we going to worship Muhammad or set a equal beside God? Not right.

It's like we honoring our national heroes, is that means we worshipping them? of course not.

It's like Nabi Muhammad, Nabi Muhammad is our beloved Islamic hero who struggling for delivering the message to his ummat.So it's not strange if we honoring him as Allah's rasul.
The conclusion is we aren't worship Muhammad but just honoring his name as a hero."

Refer to the Quran

2285

Now... the phrase
there is no god but God and Muhammad is His messenger
.... is NOT WRONG - no, it is factually, absolutely correct! BUT so is

there is no god but God and Moses is His messenger

there is no god but God and Noah is His messenger

there is no god but God and Jesus is His messenger

there is no god but God and Lot is His messenger

... And the list goes further - much of which we have no knowledge of.

These are all correct statements, BUT mentioning any of them as a phrase just to honor a particular person as God's messenger IS MAKING A DISTINCTION. If you want to honor the prophets, then you must find a way to honor all of them (which is not possible through phrases such as the fabrication known as the "Shadah" - or "testimony of faith" - because we don't even have a comprehensive list of messengers and prophets (REFER TO THE QURAN 407.

Logically, the only way you CAN honor the prophets is by paying heed to their message and not let their efforts be in vain.

Man_of_Faith

And they were of ones with God, just as you people should be.

Be of one with God

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

Quran clearly rules out calling others besides Allah (7194 is an example)... but what does calling someone other than Allah mean?

A. Praying to someone other than Allah;
B. Calling someone to wish peace/blessings for him;
C. Praying to Allah for someone else;
D. ALL of the above.

I believe it is only A. If B is also unacceptable - then our everyday exchange of salam / greetings with each other becomes unacceptable. If C is unacceptable - how come Quran recommend to pray for the parents etc.

If there are contrary opinions, please discuss with logic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Zulf

I believe it is only A. If B is also unacceptable - then our everyday exchange of salam / greetings with each other becomes unacceptable. If C is unacceptable - how come Quran recommend to pray for the parents etc.

I disagree like this

C We can still pray for our parents, family, friends etc. First of all, we know them, second of all they are alive.
A prophet is not alive, and second of all we know nothing about the prophets except folklore and stories. They lived very, very long ago, so what do we really know? Nothing. Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it? People claim to love the prophet, when actually what they really love is their mental image that they have constructed based on all stories they have heard. This image may have nothing to do with the real person who once lived. Just look at Christianity.

B We can still exchange everyday salaams, but what's the point sending salaams on dead people?! This cannot be compared with greeting your shop keeper. Why would you send a greeting of peace to someone who's not present?!

The whole issue is that people address those who have passed away. What do people think they will achieve by this? Do they think the passed away ones will gain more comfort and peace, or be forgiven because of these posthumously sent prayers? Isn't THIS life the only chance we get? Isn't it a bit too late to send prayers and greetings when someone has already passed away? All these people achieve is that they end up investing alot of their mental focus on passed away people. Is this really useful?

The big question is WHY do we send prayers, greetings and salaams on passed away people? WHY? And please, let's not say it is because we love them. That's idol worship to direct your prayers and attention on someone already passed away who cannot harm nor benefit you.

At least this is my current understanding.

Peace

huruf

I think everybody can go to extremes, or rather to suspect everybody else for whateverm thus bringing forward his or her own "purity", like "I have the purest faith and your understanding is impure" or whatever. Let us not suspect other people's brains .

That somebody does not conceive of something is not a reason for somebody else not conceiving of it.

Mentionning anybody's name "beside" God is shirk? What does that "beside" mean? "God protect my children" would be shirk?

There are people here who are convinced that Muhammad is not the name of a person that it may be a collective or something of the kind, so what? What does it change. Prophecy is a Mercy for humans from the Allmight Allmerciful? What is wrong with remembering it, with praising God for it? What is wrong with remembering that we are a prophetic community, that is, that we believe that God's mercy is flowing to us that God communicates with us. Is not Muhammad (whether a person or several or simply a condition) the seal of prophets? Suppose it is not a person, but a condition or a ruh that inhabits certain people at certain times, so what is wrong with praising God's mercy, that mercy which relies us to Him.

What is wrong with grtitude to God for all his mercys on us?

I am afraid that God can also beome an idol, that is our own idea of God can also become an idol. If we can circumscribe Him so easily, I think we are close to managing god and not being creatures out of His mercy.

The heart who is grateful to God, praises all of his mercies, unbound in numbers, unbound in deepness, and remembering God's mercy of prophecy is like remembering God's mercy of knowledge of suffering of patience...

We cannot use measuring tapes for our relationship with God, it is too unmannageable. We know nothing, but we may be greatful for everything. We are serfs, not spoilt children. He outbounds anything we can think of, we are bound completely.

I suppose by know it looks as if I was nto saying anything or saying one thing and the opposite, but summing up

Let us not by stingy thinking of what other people thinks of worshipping God. Worship comes from the heart and we cannot contain it.

Salaam

Armanaziz

I disagree like this

C We can still pray for our parents, family, friends etc. First of all, we know them, second of all they are alive.
A prophet is not alive, and second of all we know nothing about the prophets except folklore and stories. They lived very, very long ago, so what do we really know? Nothing. Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it? People claim to love the prophet, when actually what they really love is their mental image that they have constructed based on all stories they have heard. This image may have nothing to do with the real person who once lived. Just look at Christianity.

B We can still exchange everyday salaams, but what's the point sending salaams on dead people?! This cannot be compared with greeting your shop keeper. Why would you send a greeting of peace to someone who's not present?!

The whole issue is that people address those who have passed away. What do people think they will achieve by this? Do they think the passed away ones will gain more comfort and peace, or be forgiven because of these posthumously sent prayers? Isn't THIS life the only chance we get? Isn't it a bit too late to send prayers and greetings when someone has already passed away? All these people achieve is that they end up investing alot of their mental focus on passed away people. Is this really useful?

The big question is WHY do we send prayers, greetings and salaams on passed away people? WHY? And please, let's not say it is because we love them. That's idol worship to direct your prayers and attention on someone already passed away who cannot harm nor benefit you.

At least this is my current understanding.

Peace

Thanks to brother Zulf for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciate.

However, I have to say - your response did not seem to address my specific question. I am specifically talking about the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah" as we see in Qur'an (7194, 1066 etc.) Whether or not we can greet dead people or wish blessing on someone we don't know - and WHY would one want to do so - are all different questions - but let's first decide whether or not B or C can be understood as "Calling someone other than Allah". I find it very difficult to accept that the meaning of the phrase would vary depending on whether this "someone" is dead or alive, or whether we personally know this "someone".

Would appreciate your thoughts on exclusively the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah."

... ... ...

Before you revisit your response, you may wish to know what my understanding is on your comments. Here I am sharing my humble thoughts on some of the points you raised

Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it?

Whether our prayer would help another person - dead or alive is solely and absolutely a discretion of Allah. If someone is helped that is only because Allah wanted to help him - our prayer is never a deciding factor for well being of others - neither dead, nor alive. Still human beings do pray for each other and they are encouraged to pray for each other because prayer for others is an expression of mercy, kindness and fellow-feelings in our heart and Allah loves the ones who are merciful and kind. From this percpective there is little difference between praying for a dead person and praying for a living person.

Furthermore, Qur'an provides specific example where dead people are not beyond the scope of greetings and prayers - see 746.

Why would we greet someone we don't know personally?

We do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image. Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

Let's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read. Similalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

You have brought the comparison of overglorification of Jesus (pbuh) in Christianity. I do not believe Qur'an condemns or discourages praying for a Prophet of wishing blessing upon him - on the contrary Qur'an sets example of such blessing itself (see 1915). What Qur'an condemns is calling prophets/angels as son of Allah and taking prophets/angels as Master from other than Allah. We need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

With all due respect; the passages mean to serve that which has been associated in jurisdiction with God erroneously. That is the real meaning of . It mostly refers to what the false jurisdiction tells them to do, i.e. useless rituals and stuff.

God especially dislikes poor judgment and to what this leads into when someone is void of sound judgment. Then it does not matter how pious they claim themselves to be. It is by the deeds and behavior we shall be judged.

Giving salam to a prophet may be done, but the question is how much of a benefit it would make. The mentioned prophet is done on his test and no person can change their outcome in God's judgment. Nor do these people suffer or grieve and hence have no need of your salam. The concept is redundant. If one knows the meaning of the very word they would know these people are s l m.

Wishing something good for a relative or friend is just a lousy comparison to think it would be shirk because what other than a lovely show of care is that?

But thinking God's jurisdiction orders something which is not true then that is shirk and if it was attributed to the prophet then it is shirk with this prophet. The worst shirk is including when it leads these people to fail in sound judgment due to their delusions of what the prophet or tradition allegedly told them. We have examples of that in traditional Islam where people actually believe in things which are a show of very poor judgment.

But what God judges on is based on behavior and deed. Invented idiocy bring much attention on meaningless rituals and they often become quite dogmatic and get kind of tunnel vision meaning they lose focus on the essence of the faith in pursuit to perform all their prohibitions and rituals flawlessly. And being a good person showing sound judgment is the real point for us.

Be of one with God

Zulf

Thanks to brother Zulf for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciate.

However, I have to say - your response did not seem to address my specific question. I am specifically talking about the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah" as we see in Qur'an (7194, 1066 etc.) Whether or not we can greet dead people or wish blessing on someone we don't know - and WHY would one want to do so - are all different questions - but let's first decide whether or not B or C can be understood as "Calling someone other than Allah". I find it very difficult to accept that the meaning of the phrase would vary depending on whether this "someone" is dead or alive, or whether we personally know this "someone".

Would appreciate your thoughts on exclusively the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah."

... ... ...

Before you revisit your response, you may wish to know what my understanding is on your comments. Here I am sharing my humble thoughts on some of the points you raised

Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it?

Whether our prayer would help another person - dead or alive is solely and absolutely a discretion of Allah. If someone is helped that is only because Allah wanted to help him - our prayer is never a deciding factor for well being of others - neither dead, nor alive. Still human beings do pray for each other and they are encouraged to pray for each other because prayer for others is an expression of mercy, kindness and fellow-feelings in our heart and Allah loves the ones who are merciful and kind. From this percpective there is little difference between praying for a dead person and praying for a living person.

Furthermore, Qur'an provides specific example where dead people are not beyond the scope of greetings and prayers - see 746.

Why would we greet someone we don't know personally?

We do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image. Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

Let's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read. Similalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

You have brought the comparison of overglorification of Jesus (pbuh) in Christianity. I do not believe Qur'an condemns or discourages praying for a Prophet of wishing blessing upon him - on the contrary Qur'an sets example of such blessing itself (see 1915). What Qur'an condemns is calling prophets/angels as son of Allah and taking prophets/angels as Master from other than Allah. We need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Peace and thank you for your kind reply br. Arman,

First off, I have to agree that I seem to have missed your point, where you ask about "calling on someone other than Allah". I take this to mean that the people in the mentioned ayats are calling on certain entities for aid, help and assistance. Like e.g. if you'd pray to Saint Augustine (or whatever) to help you get pregnant. Or praying to Ganesha for rain so the crops won't fail. Ok, I just made up these things, but I hope you get what I mean. To me it seems that calling on someone other than Allah mean that you call on some specific entity, which is part of Creation. This is "other than Allah". Also, "call on" would mean to seek help from or similar.

So, I obviously don't see a problem in calling on your neighbor for help, in carrying a piano or doing the taxes, but I guess that's not what we are discussing.

Regarding 746, does it really involve living people communicating with dead people? I don't think so. Seems like a scenario in the afterlife is described.

I believe there is a huge difference between praying for a live and a passed away person. The passed away person has already done his or her deeds. The test is over. What effect can my prayers have on my dead grandma?

I also believe prayers work very well on living people. It's not just wishes of well. Prayers can really have a great effect, as seen in different religions, and even outside religions.

We do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image.

But we are not talking about knowing someone 100%. We don't even know ourselves 100%. I can pray for my cousin whom I perhaps don't meet very often and don't know too well. No problem. At least I know for a fact that my cousin is a living human being.

Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

What do you KNOW about your prophet? Nothing! You just rely on stories about the prophet to be true. We trust our sources of information, but we cannot know how true they are. So, studying about a prophet does not necessarily mean you are acquiring more information (true facts) about that prophet. Studying means you are memorizing the information written in the texts. That's all it means. Did the prophet have the stamina and sexual power of 30 men? That's what the books say. That's what we read when we are studying the prophet. But is it true? How can we tell? We cannot tell for sure! Ok, this was perhaps not the main point, but there are people who believe Jesus created the universe and they are praying to Jesus to heal their mother, because this is what they have read in books.

Regarding the shopkeeper, at least you know he or she is alive. He or she is a real person in front of you. That you know for a fact, and therefor you can pray for that person. The shopkeeper is not a figure from the history books... a figure we construct an image of in our minds as we read descriptions about him. There's a huge difference.

But anyhow, my main point is not so much in regards to what we know about someone, but rather whether or not that person is able to benefit or receive your salam, greeting, prayer. This is the crux.

Let's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read.

And it's quite a reasonable assumption to assume that I'm a real person who is writing these posts, and not a bot or something.

Similalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

I guess I have to agree that the quran does speak of a person, a prophet, who received the quran through inspiration, and there might be some other things told about him in the text, and this would be enough to assume he was a real person. However, I would not believe what e.g. hadith is saying about the prophet.

What I'm turning against is the whole thing of greeting a dead person (not alive in this physical, material dimension). I cannot see the purpose because I believe he is safer and better off now than what I can imagine, and my prayers wouldn't have an effect anyway once someone's life is terminated. The test is over.

Also, why would I greet someone dead? To improve their status? To let them know I support them? To feel good myself despite knowing they won't hear my greeting? What's the reason?

In any case, I have to acknowledge that I may not understand how you see things. Right now, I have only spoken from my current perspective. Perhaps I can learn something from you. But again, right now, I find it utterly pointless to send prayer, salaams, greetings or similar onto people who have passed away.

We need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic

I agree on this fully! May Allah guide us all to better understanding and a clearer vision and better insight. May Allah bless us with purification.

Let me know if I have misunderstood something. Perhaps I can clarify.
Peace and best regards!
Z

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Salamun Alaikum.

Quran clearly rules out calling others besides Allah (7194 is an example)... but what does calling someone other than Allah mean?

A. Praying to someone other than Allah;
B. Calling someone to wish peace/blessings for him;
C. Praying to Allah for someone else;
D. ALL of the above.

I believe it is only A. If B is also unacceptable - then our everyday exchange of salam / greetings with each other becomes unacceptable. If C is unacceptable - how come Quran recommend to pray for the parents etc.

If there are contrary opinions, please discuss with logic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

If (B) occurs in prayer (or what is intended as prayer), then it would fall under the restrictions of (A). There is also a potential issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is not obligatory (such as calling for peace to another)--isn't that just another way of taking partners? It wouldn't matter if it was hopping on one foot during prayer--if a person takes it to be obligatory without authority (and there is no Authority besides the Almighty) then it is shirk.

Is it recommended that we pray for others?

604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum Brother Zulf and Abdul-Hadi.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

I am glad to see my understanding of "calling on someone other than Allah" is now aligned with the understanding of brother Zulf. Given this understanding - verses like 7194, 1066 should not be used to prohibit blessing on Prophets or daroods etc.
Brother Zulf believes - if I am reading his post correctly ? our prayer does help living people but they cannot help dead people. I do not agree to this point. Per my understanding, helping someone ? dead or alive is a sole authority of Allah ? our prayer for others is merely a reflection of our feelings in our heart for others. I love my friend / relative when he is alive, I wish the best for him, so I pray for him - irrespective of any consideration on whether my prayer will actually help him. I may wish my friend best of luck on the result day of a major exam - knowing very well that his results will be a function of his performance in the test and is probably all settled by now - irrespective I wish him luck or not! I still love my friend / relative when he is dead, so I continue to wish the best for him still pray for him, and so I pray for him. I see no problem with this ? and I definitely do not consider this a shirk.

In a nutshell - my prayer and blessings for others is not motivated by a cost-benefit analysis of whether the blessing would help anyone, rather it is an spontaneous expression of what my heart wishes for them. Thus I seem to differ fundamentally from brother Zulf on the purpose of my greetings and blessings for others. Perhaps we have to agree to disagree on this point.

I understand 746 gives a scenario where dead people are greeting and blessing each other ? not one where living people are blessing dead people. But I referred to this verse solely to illustrate the point that dead people are not beyond the scope of greeting and blessings. Let me specifically quote Brother Zulf

The passed away person has already done his or her deeds. The test is over. What effect can my prayers have on my dead grandma?

This is exactly where 746 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.

I agree 100% with Brother Abdul-Hadi that there is definitely an issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is not obligatory (such as calling for peace to another). Although I doubt if that can always amount to ?shirk?, but it definitely is problematic. In this connection I would humbly mention that from my limited understanding of ?Traditional Islam? ? most traditional schools of thought DO NOT propose darood / Shahadat etc. as ?Mandatory? or ?Farz? part of Salaat ritual.

Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Zulf

This is exactly where 746 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.

Yes, this seems to be the current difference in our perspectives and we we believe things work. We differ in whether or not we believe that a passed away persons situation can still change, after passing away. I believe their destiny is sealed. Of course, I may be wrong. I will keep pondering it, and with time, perhaps my understanding shifts. In any case, Allah is in total control.

Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.

This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.

We should worry more about ourselves, to improve and get more purified, and not who is better than whom. Elevating one above another is to lean towards racism and cast system. We are all souls from God. If someone is more pure than another, then that's God's business. We should only mind our own growth, and avoid casting judgement among others.

Peace

huruf

This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.

There are people here who are convinced that Muhammad is not the name of a person that it may be a collective or something of the kind, so what? What does it change. Prophecy is a Mercy for humans from the Allmight Allmerciful? What is wrong with remembering it, with praising God for it? What is wrong with remembering that we are a prophetic community, that is, that we believe that God's mercy is flowing to us that God communicates with us. Is not Muhammad (whether a person or several or simply a condition) the seal of prophets? Suppose it is not a person, but a condition or a ruh that inhabits certain people at certain times, so what is wrong with praising God's mercy, that mercy which relies us to Him.

The seal of prophets encloses all the prophets, all of them, those we know and those we do not know.

Salaam

hafeez_kazi

Peace all

Praying for living and dead are useless even if you pray one million times. Because Allah does what he WILLS.

He guides whom He wills, He increases provisions whom He wills, He accepts repentance of whom He wills, He forgives whom He wills, He punishes whom He wills, He sends mercy on whom He wills, He guides whom He wills to a straight path, He multiplies (His rewards) for whom He wills, He gives wisdom to whom He wills, He creates what He wills, he grants bounty to whom He wills, He purifies whom He wills, He bestows favor on whom He wills, He leaves astray whom He wills, He gives victory to whom He wills, He guides to His Light whom He wills, He causes to hear whom He wills, He gives males /females to whom He wills, He renders whom He wills barren.

........"Then who could prevent Allah at all if He intended for you harm or intended for you benefit? Rather, ever is Allah, with what you do, Acquainted 4811

But never will Allah delay a soul when its time has come. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do. (Al-Munaafiqoon 11)

He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah; He does what He wills." (3 40)

Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills. (22 1

Can anybody change the WILL of Allah by praying to HIM for OTHERS or DEAD?

That is because Allah would not change a favor which He had bestowed upon a people until they change what is within themselves. And indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing. (Al-Anfaal 53)

For each one are successive before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah. Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling in it and there is not for them besides Him any patron. (Ar-Ra'd 11)

Pray for yourselves with full faith in Allah and do not pray for those who are dead or others who are living. PRAYING FOR OTHERS IS AS GOOD AS INTERCESSION

INTERCESSION PRAYER, PETITION OR ENTREATY FOR ANOTHER THE ACTION OF SAYING A PRAYER ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER. A PRAYER TO GOD FOR ANOTHER.

When I was a ten year old boy I used to observe some Muslims sending Salat on Prophet after the Friday prayers and that lasted for about three to five minutes. But today the sending of Salat on prophet has become a daily routine after the Fajr prayer lasting about fifteen minutes and on Friday the sending of Salat plus some other nonsense things last about one hour. This has become a part of religion and tantamount to shirk.

And most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him 12106

Man_of_Faith

No. Praying for someone is not useless. God does as God wills, that is true, but God does also carry out wills of other upright men and women because God is not a tyrant and we also work in harmony with God if we are with God. We have thus erased our egos and live like one with the spirit.

Praying for someone where God clearly wants something else would however be futile, but you live in a kind of communion condition with God so also as an individual in the community with God pray for someone else is certainly okay. We can do good through direct physical deeds or we can bless people, to various degrees depending on the growth of one's own soul, for God will listen.

Even wish something in ways of events in the world can be granted from God. I was able through the blessing of God to protect my wife from being damaged in car accident some weeks ago since I had prayed for a certain protection for my son while she and my son were gone in Iran and God did not let my wife become hurt and she could even rise up and walk away with almost no blemish despite being thrown up in the air quite high and then down on the car again. Her leg is a bit stiff and aches a little but otherwise just fine. I did not ask for a car accident, but I had prayed for protection for my son.

And; Abraham prayed for a whole offspring coming after him (although God clearly stating that it would not include the evildoers). That is clearly a misconception that prayers are meaningless. And praying good upon someone other than yourself simply shows your reduced ego whereas constantly doing it for yourself seems a bit selfish.

That all we can do is materialistic in nature in this world is just a sign on how much we are obsessed with physical objects. Same goes for that ketaab delusion or salat and many other words that take mostly a physical meaning in almost all contexts.

Please reflect upon why prayers are performed in the narration of Quran by various historical figures and then compare it to your argument. Remember the people sometimes pray for other people.

Be of one with God

Zulf

Indeed, prayer has amazing power even though we don't know the mechanics behind it.
The power of prayer is no less real than stuff we do "in the material world". For example, I can intend to drive to town, buy the new cook book for my relative so that he can have that planned dinner. Easy right? Well, not if God doesn't will. Perhaps I get sick, perhaps my car won't start, perhaps traffic gets jammed, perhaps the book is sold out, perhaps perhaps perhaps. We can't even be sure to carry out simple physical deed in this material world, but that doesn't render the concept of action useless. We have intentions and often we are able to carry out what we intend. Same with prayers. Prayer is not just wishful thinking. It has power if done with heart and emotion.

Cheers

Man_of_Faith

Peace Zulf,

We ought to realize that we are of one with God and therefore we can also will in spirit with God. But also to will things which are bad in judgment while knowing better is like double the punishment. Noah repented for praying for his son and it showed that God got pissed off since he ought to have known better. What we pray for we are responsible for ourselves.

But to pray for certain scenarios; to affect the "time line", in uprightness is nothing wrong. Abraham prophesied with authority for future generations, but it was a prayer from his part, and it included people who were already alive at that time. "Protect me and my sons from serving idols" was in a prayer. Clearly individuals are making intentional prayers for other people in Quran, yet certain people want to prohibit prayers?

Complicated to explain, yet not so incomprehensible. God is way way closer to us than we care to think.

Be of one with God