Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

[JavaLatte]

"Here you have the truthful word for reject."

Peace my brethren,

Here is the word for deny or reject

5012 Before their denial/disbelief/rejection was that of the people of Noah, and the dwellers of Al-Raas, and Thamud.

5013 And ?Aad, and Pharaoh, and the brethren of Lot.

They are offered something which they do not accept whereas they deny or reject it.

---

239 And those who disbelieve oppose and deny/reject/disbelieve Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

210 In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied/rejected/disbelieved.

Here you have the truthful word for reject.

Kafir, on the other hand, is when you take action, i.e. oppose in word or physical response.

And note that disbelieve does not even fit the context and is an invented word. There is no disbelief but simply rejection or denial.

---

287 And We gave Moses the decree, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, the clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny/reject, and a group of them you kill!

311 Like the behavior of the people of Pharaoh and those before them. They denied/rejected Our signs so God took them for their sins. God is awesome in retribution.

360 The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
361 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say ?Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us invoke and make the curse of God upon the liars rejectors.?

362 This is the narration of truth, there is no god except God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
363 And if they turn away, then God is aware of the corrupters.

375 And from among the people of the decree are those whom if you entrust him with a large amount he gives it back to you, and there are those whom if you entrust with one gold coin he will not return it to you unless you are standing over him. That is because they said ?We have no obligation towards the Gentiles.? They say about God denials while they know.

Know the almost literal translation sounds a bit weird in English. But lie could as well be used in paraphrasing.

God bless you

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

[Man_of_Faith]

You consider this is an insult? laugh

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify. And sorry that I offended by saying what I felt about that I could not understand what you try to convey.

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

Therefore, your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

Is it not a logical conclusion that they oppose God if they continue to fight even if told to stop fighting and oppress others? What is it that you call conjecture?

and you can continue to believe, "opponent!!!" . . .

Thank you.

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

I am not using an ad hominem "all the times when people are disagreeing with my opinion".

So if you curse someone by yelling "Kaffir!!!", then you actually yell in English, "opponent!!!".

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

Exactly. It does not make any difference and that was the contention.

[Man_of_Faith]

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

Peace,

No worries. Praise be to God. I just want The Master's decree to be correct without inconsistency.

is the real word for denying or rejecting.

is when you act upon your denial and actively oppose God in various ways (but of it can be used for opposition of any kind, it is not necessarily in religious contexts)

God bless you

[muslims]

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify.

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Simple. . your interpretation is not accurate or wrong if it is inconsistent with any verses from the Quran; ie. one or more false premises.

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? <- ie. referring to your interpretation, or any interpretation
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction. <- ie. inconsistent with other verses from the Quran
4.82

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "opposed" the ordinance of Allah. . . and if you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple, end.

[Man_of_Faith]

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Yes it could be true, but I still need to understand your statements. And you cannot say something contradict anything when you do not understand what I write. That is why it has to be a mutual understanding first before you refute anything.

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "oppose" the ordinance of Allah. . . and . .

If you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple.

I cannot see any contradiction here. Two groups of people with faith opposed each other and fought. One group begun to oppress or transgress the limits of the other group which means they oppose God's decree. The anyone able to stand up against the group which is violent should do so and oppose the mischief.

What is wrong and in contradiction. And according to the narration both groups are believers. They can be opponents, both of them, nonetheless. The one that becomes violent and aggressive oppose God.

So no problem and we have spent time in vain discussion over something we already agree on.

[Man_of_Faith]

And the Arabic word k - f - r does not even occur in 499. The believing group that becomes violent are kafir anyway unless they yield and repent. They need to stop their behavior and hopefully God will forgive. God is very forgiving.

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

We can go from the end of the recitation as a variation. Let us continue

1090 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?
1092 ?I do not serve what you serve,?
1093 ?Nor do you serve what I serve,?
1094 ?Nor will I serve what you serve,?
1095 ?Nor will you serve what I serve,?
1096 ?To you is your system, and to me is mine.?

1071 Have you seen he who is denying bravo in the system?

Here you have your "disbeliever".

980 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
981 Those who opposed among the people of the decree and the
associators would not leave until a proof came to them.
982 A messenger from God reciting purified scripts.
983 In them are valuable booksdecrees.
984 And those who had previously received the decree did not divide
except after the proof came to them.
985 And they were not commanded except to serve God and be loyal
to His system, monotheists, and hold the communion/melding and
contribute towards purification. Such is the valuable system.
986 Those who opposed from the people of the decree and the
associators are in the fires of Hell abiding therein, those are the
worst of creation.
987 As for those who have faith and do good works, they are the best of
creation.
988 Their reward with their Lord are gardens of delight with
rivers flowing beneath them, abiding therein eternally. God is
satisfied with them, and they are satisfied with Him. That is for
whoever is concerned towards His Lord.

Red So anyone who disbelieves is the worst of creation? No those who opposed God's system are the worst of creation. They sought corruption, oppression and injustice. And their "gods" "told" them to do so.

God bless you

[muslims]

1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?

I believe this is not accurate. . .

"Those who oppose harmony and balance in the system are your kafiroon"

This is in response to the Man of Faith's argument that the word "Kafiroon" means "Opposition"

I couldn't agree with the translation. . and also,

I couldn't agree with all the translations that it means as "Disbeliever" or "Denier" etc. . .

. . .

What does it really mean ?

I believe that the actual word means "Contravener" ,

or we could say that it is more accurate to say it is. . .

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition"

. . .

Why it is a "Contravener"

To understand this we need to understand our relationship with God.

Our relationship with God is a "Contractual Relationship", it is a "Covenant" , ie. . .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?" <- This is our "Contract" or "Covenant" with God
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

• lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
  "Indeed, we were of this unaware"
  (7172)

This is further described as below. . .

Who break the COVENANT of Allah after CONTRACTING it
and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined
and cause corruption on earth.
It is those who are the losers.
2.27

And , when Allah took the COVENANT of the prophets, ,
"Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom
and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you,
you believe in him and support him."
said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"
They said, "We have acknowledged it."
He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
3.81

This is what Islam is all about, it is a "Contract" or a "Covenant" with God

Both parties have agreed to be bound by their Contract, or Covenant

This is equally true with Satan or Iblees , it is a Covenant or Contractual Relationship. . .

. . .

Conclusion

Because it is a contractual or a covenant , the the word accurate to describe this relationship is a "Contravener"

ie. those who contravene their Contract or Covenant with Allah

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition". . .

I believe it is "Contravener". . .

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

1. to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.

2. to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

1. to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
2. to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

contra'vener

? n

contravention

? n

Please see below. . .

[Man_of_Faith]

Okay. At least it is somewhere in between what you said.

Peace out

[Zulf]

Peace all,

I wonder if the words we say are more in disagreement than the ideas we are trying to convey.

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

1. to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.

2. to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

1. to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
2. to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but to me it seems that br. muslims means that the discussed word means contravene which in turn means to break our covenant with the Creator. At the same time it seems to me that br. MoF says that the word at hand means oppose. Isn't it the system of the Creator that is being opposed? Isn't that the same as breaking the covenant? Am I wrong in thinking that the covenant would include the follow the entire system of the Creator (with sincere effort and intentions)? How can we understand the covenant and uphold it while we don't understand the system put in place by the Creator? I don't think it is possible, because we cannot know the Creator directly, but rather only through the signs in the Creation and through what is inspired to us. So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Let me know where I've misunderstood, if at all.

Best regards

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace Zulf,

The word that he just picked does mean virtually the same thing. It is just plagiarism and the word does not have any complicated meaning but a quite primitive one like oppose with no specification of what.

Anyway, please bring the topic to the other thread that muslims created and bring that garbage out of my thread. It is off-topic.

God bless you

[Existential1]

So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Yes, they are. It is semantics, really.

peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace brothers,

Yes it is simply about semantics and a play with words. Now take the lame discussion to his thread and continue the circus there please. No bad intentions meant. It is off topic here.

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

But it is a very general meaning of the word that exist in the recitation (quran) if we go back to the topic here and it could be to be in opposition to anyone/anything which you do not like. It is not a magical word as all other words and they have a meaning closely attached to the Earth.

Example

If you would steal my bike then I would oppose you (kafar). No "religion" involved, but in from a faith perspective your crime would be opposing God as well. You see where I am taking the word kafir?

To cloud/conceal is nearly right, but you more like suppress the one you "kafar" because you oppose it. You wish to stop it.

I hope you see where I am taking it and you can refer to my recent posts on the subject too.

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

I have another traditionally "magical" word to take a look at. Let us check al-hikmah which is traditionally regarded as wisdom in the scripture. It is just a minor glance at it and wisdom is still not misrepresenting the word in any way. But yet for someone who wants to read the recorded recitation as accurately as possible I suggest to take a look at some adjustments. I will demonstrate the full power of this station. Monotheist Translation is used as reference.

2129 ?Our Master, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the decree and judgment, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

The word is no more "magical" than the word preceding it, i.e. decree (k-t-b). The decree reflects the various rules to be followed while the judgment is how to apply that decree in a real-life situation. That is why I say that wisdom is not really a wrong choice of interpretation. But right should be right in my opinion, and this word is used for 'to judge' in a verb form. Let us take a look further

2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the decree! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the decree and judgment, and teach you what you did not know.

2188 And do not consume your money between you unjustly by bribing the decision makers judge so that you may consume a part of the money of other people sinfully while you know!

2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the decree with the truth so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the clarity, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. And God guided those who believed with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. And God guides whoever He wishes to a straight path.

2231 And if you have divorced the women, and they have reached their required interim period, then either you remain together equitably, or part ways equitably. And do not reconcile with them so you can harm them out of animosity; whoever does so is doing wrong to his soul; and do not take the revelations of God as mockery. And remember the blessings of God upon you, and what was sent down to you of the decree and judgment, He warns you with it. And be aware of God and know that God is knowledgeable of all things.

2249 So when Saul set out with the soldiers, he said ?God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me.? They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said ?We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!? But the ones who understood that they would meet God said ?How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!?
2250 And when they came forth to Goliath and his soldiers, they said ?Our Master grant us patience, and make firm our foothold, and grant us victory over the opposing people.?
2251 So they defeated them with the permission of God, and David killed Goliath, and God gave him the kingship the authority and wisdom judgment and taught him what he wished. And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then the earth would have long been corrupted; but God has bestowed grace upon the worlds.

King is the standard rendition for al-malek, but I chose to generalize it into authority for fluency of the text. Same root is used in 14, usually rendered as Master or Lord, but with the definite noun form in 2251 I saw authority to be best in the context. Kingship is also a human term and I deem that God rather uses a descriptive term, i.e. authority. And diacritical marks I give little merit to. I think they were added later throughout the whole recitation to improve the ability to read this old language, and particularly in the way the author of the marks wanted. They can be traps to the full comprehension of the recitation if you rely too much on them.

Blue Please for one final time, consider the usage of k-f-r in this sentence and see that they wish victory against the opponents. Imagine yourselves in their place that they would wish for victory against their adversaries and not particularly against disbelievers. Never heard of anyone in a war situation to win a war against disbelievers except in sectarian contexts. "Please let us win against those who oppose (oppress) us" ought to be the viable choice to understand the phrase.

Here Monotheist Translation actually accurately translates (h-k-m)

1222 And when he reached his independence, We gave him judgement and knowledge. It is thus that We reward the good doers.

But Yusuf Ali failed to translate properly

When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge thus do We reward those who do right.

2269 He grants wisdom judgment to whom He chooses, and whoever is granted wisdom judgment has been given much good. Only those who possess intelligence will remember.

While wisdom can be quite synonymous with judgment it still risks of feeding some arrogance into the one who reads the passage. The most accurate definition is judgment for these occurrences and best kept that way.

37 He is the One who sent down to you the decree, from which there are law-giving (judgment) revelations; they are the essence of the decree; and others which are of a similitude. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow that which is of a similitude, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say ?We have faith in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will heed except those who possess intelligence.

Ah well. My only real (personal) intention by delving into this word was to pinpoint its root's fundamental meaning which is just judge. I hope more than only me see the danger in translating and understanding it as the Wisdom with capital 'w' and it may give more coherence to certain verses, particularly those mentioned along with ketab (decree). Think of 'command and judgment'. There is a command from God to follow and to judge with it.

God bless you

[Armanaziz]

Peace,

No worries. I am just set to clarify things and not to get into fights or arguments. You can think it means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector, but then you will have to live with certain inconsistency, and which gives fuel to sectarians.

To oppose does not mean I would beat you to death or hurt you physically, but it can also be to start yelling at you and oppose you in mindset and to spread lies about your cause.

God bless you

As-salamu Alaika brother

From your last comment "...You can think it means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector..." it is obvious to me that I have not been able to adequately communicate what I was saying. I DO NOT think kafir means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector - in fact between "disbeliever" and "opposer" my understanding of the meaning of the term is closer to the later. What I tried to say is that kafir means someone who actively hides / represses / suppresses his conscience and faith. Often this act of (faith) repression would lead to outward opposition with words and actions, but occassionally some people would just be a kafir inside and outwardly pretend to be believer (like indicated in Al Qur'an 541).

And since kufr is essentially an internal phenomenon - it is always inappropriate to call someone kafir because we do not know what is there in someone's heart. Even an apparent "Atheist" may not necessarily be a kafir inside because he may have understood the concept of "God" in his own personal way. Even self proclaimed atheists often use terms like .. "be good for goodnesses sake".. or.. "if you do this, how would you face yourself in the mirror.." etc. This means each one of us have something called "conscience" inside us. Some of us (like me) would submit to the "conscience" understanding this as the will of "God" while others may submit without believing in a "Personal God". But kafir would be the one who represses this consciense - rules it out as a mere illusion. They assume the life of the world is all there is - so they repress this "burden" of consciense and enjoy life through lie, cheat, steal, kill ... whatever. Per my understanding they are the ones who repress (faith), they are the kafir - irrespective of whether outwardly they claim to believe or oppose.

I hope I made my understanding clear. If not - I would just leave it there accepting this as a limitation in my communication ability. Meanwhile if you could refer me to specific verses that would force me to "live with certain inconsistency" based on my understanding - it would certainly be an interesting point of study for me and I would be much grateful.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace Arman,

Do not worry. If you are not ready to take in the rift away from the more implemented interpretation I am not opposing that as long as you would be a good fellow. And remember God's system is as much about doing good and acting good as it is about faith. I just want things to be right and that God is pleased.

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Harmony be with thee friends,

Sujud - What does it really mean?

Now has come the time to look into the, traditionally near-"magical" intertwined in myths, word s - j - d ( &#1583 and we shall see that it does mean to respect or pay respect or pay homage. The Arabic word probably needs some good word to use to translate into English. And as we already know, for those who have studied this thread, is that Arabic words with two syllables only imply a simple action such as lock, put forth, decree or something like that, and the words keep the same meaning no matter context although modifiable using affixes. But what does sujud mean? Let us delve deeper into the phenomenon.

But I swear by God that it does not mean prostrate at all. It means much like pay respect and let us begin with the tribes of Israel and their approach at the gate

258 And We said ?Enter this town, and eat from it as you wish bountifully. And approach the passageway respectfully, and say ?Our load is removed,? so that your wrongdoings will be forgiven, and We will increase for the good doers.?

---

969 Have you seen the one who prohibits,
9610 A servant from making the contact?
9611 Have you seen if he was being guided,
9612 Or he ordered righteousness?
9613 Have you seen if he lied and turned away?
9614 Did he not know that God can see?
9615 Alas, if he does not cease, We will strike the forelock.
9616 A forelock which lies and errs.
9617 So let him call on his supporter.
9618 We will call on the guardians.
9619 So do not obey him, show respect and come near.

It is probably not the first thing one has in mind to go up to that man and prostrate to him and thus the word means to respect.

---

Let us take a look at the controversial prostration of the angels to Adam. But it is not prostrate that God wants them to do.

234 And We said to the angels ?Show respect to Adam,? so they showed respect except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the opponents.

---

Here you can see that I doubt m - s - j -d means any building at all much like brother Wakas does. The 'm' prefix determines that it is a person who does s - j -d just as in moslem is a doer of (a) s - l -m

2114 And who are more wicked than those who prevent the ones showing respect of God that His name be mentioned in them; and they seek their distortion? They will not be able to enter approach them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution.

Red M = loosely "the one", (showing) respect s - j -d
Blue The shows of respect which masjed refers to
Green If we think traditionally, how can you have intense fear of entering a mosque if you are completely ignorant and disrespectful of God.

I am sure this is a slap in the face or worse on some people, but I find it absurd to even remotely think of s - j -d as prostrate. Ask brother Wakas what he thinks.

The translation above is not perfect as I have not yet come that far. It is as in my early research into ketaab where I thought it was message, although this time it is nearly exact.

---

Above I seem to fall for a logical fallacy with the word usually used for enter ( &#1604, however this word does not mean enter but it means approach. Check this example in this passage

1551 And inform them of the guests of Abraham.
1552 When they approached him, they said ?Peace.? He said ?We are worrisome of you.?
1553 They said ?Do not worry, we bring you good news of a knowledgeable son.?

In all the occurrences (yes I went through the whole recitation on d - kh - l) and saw that it cannot mean enter but it means an approaching motion.

2175 And We admitted had him approach Our mercy. He was of the good doers. (loosely translated/paraphrased)

Red It feels strange with an entering motion with this phrase.

3314 And if the enemy had entered approached them from all sides (threatened from all directions), and then they were asked to betray, they would do so with very little hesitation.

5125 When they entered approached him, they said ?Peace.? He said ?Peace to a people unknown!?
5126 Then he went to his family and brought a fat calf.
...
5129 His wife then approached came before in amazement. She slapped upon her face, and said ?A barren old woman!?

Red Once again it looks like I fall for a logical fallacy but the meaning here is slightly different than the approach used in the other sentences. Qbl is before someone, but approach is a description of a motion. Hope you get my point.

You will have to do with this investigation. It is in the early hours of dawn here now.

---

Back to sjd. This one turns quite convincing in my opinion. I went through all occurrences throughout the whole recitation (Qur'an). Translation not yet perfect.

177 If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will approach the ones who show respect as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.

Most importantly a masjed it not a building or structure at all but it is people much like muslim or mumin. And I have upcoming explanations for al-masjed al-haram which will come later. Those passages are almost cryptic, but I believe that the al-haram somehow will relate to something which hints at an explanation.

---

17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins in a show of respect.?
17108 And they say ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?

Here we have a "mindblower".

1821 And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that the promise of God is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued among themselves regarding them, so they said ?Erect a monument for them!? Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who managed to win the argument said ?We will construct a temple be ones in show of respect over them.?

You see the logical fallacy with the traditional interpretation here.

1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down respectfully, and in tears.

Imagine the reaction of these people without the pollution of the traditional understanding. Obviously they tip their heads in respect and tears come in their eyes and perhaps they went down on their knees if they were very emotional.

2070 So the magicians went down in respect. They said ?We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses.?

20116 And We said to the angels ?(Show) respect to Adam.? They all (showed) respect except for Satan, he refused.
20117 So We said ?O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship.?

2218 Did you not see that to God makes what is in the heavens and what is on the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and what moves, and many of the people, and many who have deserved the retribution show respect And whoever God disgraces, then none can honor him. God does what He pleases.

I would love to see a moon and the stars in a prostration movement. Of course everything is in respect to God.

2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary ?Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling (in) respect.

2560 And if they are told ?Show respect to the Almighty.? They say ?And what is the Almighty? Shall we show respect to what you order us?? And it increases their aversion.

2564 And those who stay awake for their Lord, in prostration respect and standing (?).

26219 And your movements among those who show respect.

3872 ?So when I have evolved him, and blow of My Spirit in him, then you shall show respect to him.?
3873 The angels showed respect, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the opponents.

---

Sorry. Running out of time here without finishing completely.

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

I am sure about sujud still, but the word m - s - j - d is still within doubt for me. I was too quick at drawing conclusions, but it seems that it could mean a building or object. It must still be an object from where showing of respect is done however which the word s - j - d implies. And the word does not mean to prostrate.

I am sorry for giving wrong information. Suppose I have no more specific explanation for s - j - d with the prefix 'm' on it and its meaning even if I still draw the conclusion that it has similar effect on the word as m - uslim or m - umin. And al-masjed al-haraam still puzzles me as the root (haram) connotes on something that is forbidden/prohibited. But it appears that it is a proper noun for a place somewhere. You may perhaps call a site prohibited if it is restricted to a certain group of people. If it was holy or sacred the Arabic language would have used q - d - s (&#1587 in my opinion.

Hope that God will give a reasonable explanation at some point.

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

Time for a recap of what we have been talking about so far in this thread and also make a list of the things that God really want us to do.

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So what does God want from us?

Simplified list

• That we get faith (iman) in God

• Be good people

Faith (iman) means confidence or certainty through the word itself and there is a particular confusion about what we really have in our souls. But indeed we do not believe but we gain confidence and it is a quite major misconception in how we think things are. This is thus that kafir does not mean disbeliever for there is no such word. You either have faith or you do not have faith and no more complicated than that. This is something that I have discovered very recently and it came very clear to me after pondering upon that for a while. But you are probably prone to oppose (kafar) God if your faith is low not only because you are ignorant but also because you seem to have missed the basic principles of the faith itself and you may call yourself 'Muslim' as you do horrendous crimes, or crimes/sins severe enough to be disliked by God such as being unkind to other people and treating them unfairly. Any act that is a transgression and against God's principles is an act against God, but God forgives if we realize our misbehavior, apologize and make things right and/or repent to God afterwards. And we must know that we ought to judge like God, i.e. have the same kind of sound judgment, and we must follow the ways The Master has decreed for us.

The list above is that short because most people here already know what a good person is and what the decreed rules are, and if we gain true faith in God then how we must do will basically come automatically by the increased proximity to God and as God begins to like you because of your realization that God is One and your search for The Master, then God will guide you, so as long as you simultaneously bond with God on a frequent basis (I call it melding or communion while traditionalists call it prayer) and works on your betterment (my interpretation of what the Arabic word 'zakat' stands for, i.e. purification). Guidance will definitely come if you search God's Nearness while keeping the link and improve yourself, while not associating anything with God and carefully verify any information that you encounter along the way. The amount of falsehood out there is enormous and in fact, for those who have read this thread up until now, we know that our faith does contain very few direct "laws" and some guidelines open to individual interpretation (on how strictly to adhere to them and what they may include). The recitation does mostly narrate a sea of reasons why to have faith in God and many allegories and narratives with stories teaching moral lessons and not so many strict rules really. The communion/melding (salat) and betterment/purification (zakat) is basically there for our own good and God could as well do without us performing them, and God is likely not going to send you to Hell for having a streak of missed moments in prayer. The five pillars of "Islam" is a human invention and I would outright replace prayer with good deeds. The prayers (salat) are not as important as being kind and helpful to others. But the faithful and certain men and women of faith will probably out of own devotion frequently bond with The Master without any command to do so.

245 And seek help through patience and through communion (contact prayer). It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble.

2153 O you who have faith, seek help through patience and through communion (the contact prayer), God is with the patient ones.

God says in in 283

283 And We took the covenant of the tribes of Israel ?You shall not serve except God, and do good to your parents, and regard the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and say kind things to the people, and hold the communion, and contribute towards purification.? But then you turned away, except for a few of you; you were objecting.

It looks like as if it is decreed upon people (and it is, but continue reading) and verily the melding with God that comes through the communion is the phenomenon that you are after when doing it so if you do not do it then you will not gain Nearness and hence not receive Guidance, making it a requirement to progress further, but it is still not the foundation of faith (refer to five pillars) because without good deeds then it does not matter how many communions (prayers) that one does because God will simply not provide any Guidance and reject Nearness. Thus I said above that I would replace good deeds outright in the traditional five pillars (of "Islam&quot. For a successful communion the criteria is also faith and good deeds plus betterment/improvement of oneself.

Blue If this practice is performed without a struggle to purify oneself (from evil) then it will be a virtually useless practice. That is why I would outright replace it with good deeds in a traditional five pillars. However, it may be true that with the right interpretation of 'zakat' in the five pillars you more or less have the good deeds in it.

The reason why I argue like this is because I want to get forth that without self-improvement then this person will never gain 'Nearness and Guidance' or progress any further in understanding. God literally hates bad behavior, i.e. arrogance, bad words, injustice, unkindness etc and obviously these people the more they transgress will also become "diseased" (as God seems to put it) and obtain a curse making them unable to understand. And that will continue for as long as they do not realize themselves about their conduct and change and reform.

Faith comes to your heart with steadfastness and patience, by melding and improving yourself and by (humorously) say to yourself like the poster in Fox Mulder's office in the X-files said "I want to believe". Joke apart; it takes some contemplation of our existence here and ponder upon how silly it would be not to have a creator to all this and instead think that it all got created by coincidence like some cells are intelligent enough to know in which direction to develop and even the probability that life suddenly would emerge on a planet by a mix of conditions viable to support life forms and that the stars including the sun just knew that it was needed to heat the planet Earth to sustain life.

God wants you to have faith or gain faith and The Master does the utmost to convince readers of the recitation (Qur'an) to reflect using examples to think about. Outside the recitation we can take other parables as well and the intelligent one can think beyond this recitation. Remember God's pen does never run out of ink. The recitation is a huge sign sent down from God as most of us already know, and it also why it tends to be treated as an idol as if it was more than only text on paper.

And know that people who have never read the recitation may also have faith before they approached it for the first time. It is not as important as some people want to think even if it is clearly a helpful narrative as it enables people to think and it clarified some points in the history of revelations. Ironically some people treat it as paper for display and recite it in Arabic without really knowing what they recite as if the words alone are magical. And for the first-time reader who already had faith before beginning to read it they will immediately realize that it is from God as long as they carefully analyze what they have read and take translations and interpretation of the ancient Arabic into account.

And God loves those who have faith and do good deeds, and they have understood something which most people do not. Many people say that they have faith, but we can always wonder how strong their faith really is, even among those who claim to be God alone. And you need to realize that faith is not to believe but your confidence that God is really real. The root for iman even indicates 'security' which many people rightfully translate in certain passages while oddly they use believe in others. The English word 'faith' is the closest word there is for translating 'iman' and it is the amount of confidence that someone has that God truly exists. If you believe then you have no confidence and you hence lack faith (iman).

And by this logic and reason we can also nullify the concept of disbeliever because there is simply to have faith or not have faith. You never believe in God because God is not an illusion but truly exists and you have confidence in God's existence or not. Disbeliever should never hence be used as a curse-word to anyone because they may be better than you even if they did not have the blessing of realizing about God. Someone can be ignorant of God and lack faith, but they can be good doers and be harmonizers (muslims) without perceiving themselves. The opponents of God, mostly the sectarians, have ridiculed the whole system of how to represent God and the domain, so they actually are responsible for those who they say disbelieve. But we can always wonder how much true Nearness and Guidance these misleading people have because God does not love them and actively misguide them. They are left to their own conjecture and confusion and God leaves them like that unless they would change their behavior, i.e. meld (salah) and improve themselves (zakah). This is why God wants the men of faith to fight until they perform the salah. It means to have a link with their Creator particularly by uniting with God instead of being violent and cruel and not because the men of faith can dogmatically force them to ritualistically perform something traditional. This is why I choose to translate salah as melding rather than another word.

477 Did you not see those who were told ?Cease your aggression, and hold the contact prayer melding, and contribute towards purification.? But when fighting was decreed for them, a group of them were concerned towards the people as they would have been concerned towards God or even more so. And they said ?Our Lord, why did You decree fighting for us? If only You would delay for us until another time.? Say ?The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is far better for those who are aware; you will not be wronged in the least.?

95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer melding, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Red You see that "Islam" becomes very dogmatic with the traditional concept of ritualistic prayer. I have also been thinking of going unto the track of salat meaning unity, something like unison. Check this understanding yourself and you see that it opens up for a very friendly and harmonious interpretation indeed which dimishes any dogmatic tendencies that are in the traditional understanding. Salat is often thought to be derived from a word that connotes contact, and unity or a word similar to that may be the right word that we are looking for that are trying hard to "break the code". A salah could imply a-gathering-together and with God as a target. It is a unity/bond/link with God that the person is struggling to maintain and he does it together with other people who also have grasped the truth.

629 O you who believe, if the contact prayer unity/communion is called to at the gathering day (?), then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if only you knew.

We have to be mindful of one of the last chapters of the recitation implies that certain devotion is required for one who performs communion/melding/prayer.

1071 Have you seen he who is denying in the system?
1072 It is the one who mistreats the orphan,
1073 And the one who does not encourage the feeding of the poor.

1074 So woe to those who make the communion,
1075 Who are towards their communion absent minded.
1076 They only want to be seen,

Here you can see that the latter sentences are a neglect that caused the effect in the first sentences. Because they did not concentrate on melding with God in the communion they obviously did not receive any Nearness and Guidance and they are mindless of whatever they do. I still hold on to my partial understanding of unity playing a part in this understanding because you become an ally of God, but you also are supposed to become allied with your brothers and sisters in faith. You meld together to become part of God's domain.

I understand that this is complicated and new to most people, but it is not so hard really. But it shows that the so-called contact prayer serves a quite important purpose. I still like communion as preferable interpretation of the word. But bonding or connection is a literal translation I suppose, but we shall not forget that it implies a bonding with everything in God's domain/realm.

I still hold on to the fact that communion cannot be a pure show of glorification and "show of respect" (sujud), because of passages like this. Even a fairly intoxicated person could parrot some phrases, but if you need to know what you say it is something not indoctrinated to parrot many times per day

443 O you who have faith, do not come near the communion while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

And remember this passage that I posted earlier in this post

245 And seek help through patience and through communion (contact prayer). It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble.

"Seek help through communion"

If you can add 1 + 1 you can likely figure out what is up with communion and its purpose.

2945 Recite what is inspired to you of the decree and hold the communion, for the communion prohibits immorality and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.

1690 God orders justice and goodness and that you shall help your relatives, and He prohibits immorality and vice and transgression. He warns you that you may remember.

Unity with God is the meaning of communion, and funnily the words are never in conjunction with the Arabic word Allah (God) which has its explanations.

Read this passage and see if you think the way I do

2238 Maintain the unity; and the middle "particular" unity and stand for God dutifully.

2239 But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God, as He has taught you what you did not know.

It is a practice this thing called salat, but it is not a mindless ritual. I take it as that you talk to God about just about anything you need and someone who has built up faith will understand what I am talking about. And the thing that you implore about and so on will or will not come true based on the will of The Master. But if you can see that the perceived "monolog" you have with God is answered as if God actually was talking to you but through inspiration then you have faith. Until then you do not have faith.

Blue This word is probably not supposed to be interpreted literally, but more like be of assistance or something similar. You can probably not hold a proper and mindful communion with God if chased by evil-minded people and the purpose of the communion is to channel guidance to you to prevent immorality and vice.

Here you have examples of communion by Moses (I like them that is why I bring them up again and again)

2821 He exited the city, afraid and watchful. He said ?My Lord, save me from the wicked people.?

2822 And as he traveled towards Midyan, he said ?Perhaps my Lord will guide me to the right path.?

2824 So he drew water for them, then he turned to a shaded area, and he said ?My Lord, I am poor, lacking any provisions You may have sent down.?

Those are examples of communion, the latter in a more formal context (turning to a shaded area). Moses has faith and believes in the unseen. Because he is in fear in 2821 and 2822 he does communicate with God while traveling. Important to know is that communion can take place at any moment of the day. The one that can literally utter "My Master please help me" out loud even if it could be heard by other people has faith. Notice that the Arabic passage imply that Moses says the phrases out loud.

God knows your thoughts too, but it is more articulated by using your voice and one should always take it as if God was sitting in the chair at your side (do not take literally). God may be unseen, but hardly unaware.

2828 He said ?It is then an agreement between me and you. Whichever period I fulfill, you will not be averse to either one. And God is entrusted over what we said.?

4101 And if you go forth in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten from the communion, if you fear that the opponents will try you. The opponents are to you a clear enemy.

It can be dangerous to let your mind drift away in communication with God while not in a safe place.

4102 And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have made a show of respect then let them be behind you; and let a group who has not yet made the communion come and make the communion with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The opponents hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the opponents a humiliating retribution.

557 O you who have faith, do not take as allies those who have taken your system for mockery and play from among those who have been given the decree before you and the opponents. And be aware of God if you are ones with faith.
558 And if you call to the unity/communion, they take it for mockery and play; that is because they are a people who do not comprehend.
559 Say ?O people of the decree, do you hate us simply because we have faith in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down before?? Alas, the majority of them are wicked.

Red They take it for mockery and play because they stand in a location and talk to, in their perception, nothing but air as if God is there (which The Master is). And if they do the communion they only do it to be recognized and not because of any desire to become closer to God because they do not really have faith.

I hope what I have written will help someone, God willing.

God bless you