Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

Man_of_Faith

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

I suppose you did not understand the irony.

Man_of_Faith

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

I forgot to read your post and response to full extent.

You can be a kafir (opponent) and still believe, but you disobey God and God does not really consider your faith to be strong.

muslims

What is it that you really argue against here?

Simple. . your interpretation is not accurate or wrong if it is inconsistent with any verses from the Quran; ie. one or more false premises.

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? <- ie. referring to your interpretation, or any interpretation
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction. <- ie. inconsistent with other verses from the Quran
4.82

Man_of_Faith

Simple. . your interpretation is not accurate or wrong if it is inconsistent with any verses from the Quran; ie. one or more false premises.

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? <- ie. referring to your interpretation
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction. <- ie. inconsistent with other verses from the Quran
4.82

What kind of inconsistency is it that you find? I think that you are not fully aware of what I am talking about or you are poor at elaborating your criticism.

482 Do they not reflect on the recitation? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

There is no inconsistency in it from an original literal standpoint, but due to perversion of the interpretation of words then words have been twisted in meaning.

Or do you still agree that men are allowed to beat women in 434 or that thieves are to have their hands severed, or that the women in 531 really cut their hands?

In the same manner I am investigating whether disbeliever is really an accurate term to assign to anyone who does not believe in the context of much decreed warfare. And you see that the comprehension takes a much relieved turn for the better.

I suppose you do not really understand what I write? And please bring your arguments that my interpretation is inconsistent with passages in the decree. In fact I am glad if you do so because I always wish to test my hypotheses with as many circumstantial occurrences as possible. So far the only thing this has accomplished is to find further inconsistency in the interpretation (no in the quality of the original compilation).

But if you do not agree with me then fine you may not do so and I am not responsible for your guidance. If you wish to live with an inconsistent decree then you are free to do so. Just do not bring any corruption or mischief upon me.

Peace

muslims

I think that you are not fully aware of what I am talking about or you are poor at elaborating your criticism.

. . .

I suppose you do not really understand what I write?

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

It doesn't make you right at all, but in fact a clear proof people of "very low self esteem" and "emotional". . . laugh

What kind of inconsistency is it that you find?

The word "opponent" itself. . .

People will need another "interpretation" to understand the word "opponent" since. . .

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

Therefore, it is . . .

your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

and what is my proof ?

And if two factions among the believers should fight, <- both "opposed" each other, but both are Believers
then make settlement between the two.
But if one of them oppresses the other, <- one of them "opposed" the ordinance of Allah, but they are Believers
then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of Allah .
And if it returns, then make settlement between them in justice and act justly.
Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
49.9

Therefore the word "opponent" is a general word and does not describe verses of the Quran.

Anyone can yell, the "opponent!!!" So ? laugh

Man_of_Faith

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

I have not used an "ad hominem". It is constructive criticism. It seemed as if you do not comprehend or formulate yourself poorly. I did not intend to offend. One can be bad at expressing their arguments and I find that yours are often very incoherent and nonsensical. I am not perfect myself and I have spent some time at checking different solutions in my presentations. But the result is that we have to understand each other.

This on the other hand is ad hominem

It doesn't make you right at all, but in fact an evidence of "low self esteem". . . laugh

I do not have any low self-esteem. But I find you very offensive and perhaps I am emotional. I cannot relax when you insult me rather than putting forth your arguments. I told you to elaborate and explain instead of just going personal.

The word "opponent" itself. . .

People will need another "interpretation" to understand the word "opponent" since. . .

I told you that you did not see the irony in my statement. It is weird to yell "opponent" in English at someone.

You still do not put forth your arguments about opponents instead of just quoting your words.

People will need another "interpretation" to understand the word "opponent" since. . .

What is your point?

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

This was just a joke if you did not already understand my sarcasm.

your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

Which contention?

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Therefore the word "opponent" is a general word and does not describe verses of the Quran.

Anyone can yell, the "opponent!!!" So ? laugh

You did not understand the point. I am trying not to use a nasty word at you, but your arrogance and unkind ways nearly make me.

Of course opponent is a "general word" and what kind of description are you looking for?

Kafir is a very general word with a simple meaning. You cannot yell 'kafir' without it sounding very ridiculous.

And if two factions among the believers should fight, <- both "opposed" each other, but both are Believers
then make settlement between the two.
But if one of them oppresses the other, <- one of them "opposed" the ordinance of Allah, but they are Believers
then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of Allah .
And if it returns, then make settlement between them in justice and act justly.
Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
49.9

Yes, both opposed each other. What is your point?

muslims

I cannot relax when you insult me rather than putting forth your arguments.

You consider this is an insult? laugh

I think it should mean something else. .

And if two factions among the believers should fight, <- both "opposed" each other, but both are Believers
then make settlement between the two.
But if one of them oppresses the other, <- one of them "opposed" the ordinance of Allah, but they are Believers
then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of Allah .
And if it returns, then make settlement between them in justice and act justly.
Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
49.9

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

Therefore, your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

So if you curse someone by yelling "Kaffir!!!", then you actually yell in English, "opponent!!!".

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

. . .

I have made my point very clear.

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

It doesn't make you right at all, but in fact a clear proof people of "very low self esteem" and "emotional". . . laugh

and you can continue to believe, "opponent!!!" . . .

JavaLatte

"Here you have the truthful word for reject."

Peace my brethren,

Here is the word for deny or reject

5012 Before their denial/disbelief/rejection was that of the people of Noah, and the dwellers of Al-Raas, and Thamud.

5013 And ?Aad, and Pharaoh, and the brethren of Lot.

They are offered something which they do not accept whereas they deny or reject it.

239 And those who disbelieve oppose and deny/reject/disbelieve Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

210 In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied/rejected/disbelieved.

Here you have the truthful word for reject.

Kafir, on the other hand, is when you take action, i.e. oppose in word or physical response.

And note that disbelieve does not even fit the context and is an invented word. There is no disbelief but simply rejection or denial.

287 And We gave Moses the decree, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, the clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny/reject, and a group of them you kill!

311 Like the behavior of the people of Pharaoh and those before them. They denied/rejected Our signs so God took them for their sins. God is awesome in retribution.

360 The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
361 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say ?Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us invoke and make the curse of God upon the liars rejectors.?

362 This is the narration of truth, there is no god except God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
363 And if they turn away, then God is aware of the corrupters.

375 And from among the people of the decree are those whom if you entrust him with a large amount he gives it back to you, and there are those whom if you entrust with one gold coin he will not return it to you unless you are standing over him. That is because they said ?We have no obligation towards the Gentiles.? They say about God denials while they know.

Know the almost literal translation sounds a bit weird in English. But lie could as well be used in paraphrasing.

God bless you

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

Man_of_Faith

You consider this is an insult? laugh

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify. And sorry that I offended by saying what I felt about that I could not understand what you try to convey.

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

Therefore, your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

Is it not a logical conclusion that they oppose God if they continue to fight even if told to stop fighting and oppress others? What is it that you call conjecture?

and you can continue to believe, "opponent!!!" . . .

Thank you.

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

I am not using an ad hominem "all the times when people are disagreeing with my opinion".

So if you curse someone by yelling "Kaffir!!!", then you actually yell in English, "opponent!!!".

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

Exactly. It does not make any difference and that was the contention.

Man_of_Faith

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

Peace,

No worries. Praise be to God. I just want The Master's decree to be correct without inconsistency.

is the real word for denying or rejecting.

is when you act upon your denial and actively oppose God in various ways (but of it can be used for opposition of any kind, it is not necessarily in religious contexts)

God bless you

muslims

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify.

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Simple. . your interpretation is not accurate or wrong if it is inconsistent with any verses from the Quran; ie. one or more false premises.

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? <- ie. referring to your interpretation, or any interpretation
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction. <- ie. inconsistent with other verses from the Quran
4.82

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "opposed" the ordinance of Allah. . . and if you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple, end.

Man_of_Faith

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Yes it could be true, but I still need to understand your statements. And you cannot say something contradict anything when you do not understand what I write. That is why it has to be a mutual understanding first before you refute anything.

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "oppose" the ordinance of Allah. . . and . .

If you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple.

I cannot see any contradiction here. Two groups of people with faith opposed each other and fought. One group begun to oppress or transgress the limits of the other group which means they oppose God's decree. The anyone able to stand up against the group which is violent should do so and oppose the mischief.

What is wrong and in contradiction. And according to the narration both groups are believers. They can be opponents, both of them, nonetheless. The one that becomes violent and aggressive oppose God.

So no problem and we have spent time in vain discussion over something we already agree on.

Man_of_Faith

And the Arabic word k - f - r does not even occur in 499. The believing group that becomes violent are kafir anyway unless they yield and repent. They need to stop their behavior and hopefully God will forgive. God is very forgiving.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

We can go from the end of the recitation as a variation. Let us continue

1090 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?
1092 ?I do not serve what you serve,?
1093 ?Nor do you serve what I serve,?
1094 ?Nor will I serve what you serve,?
1095 ?Nor will you serve what I serve,?
1096 ?To you is your system, and to me is mine.?

1071 Have you seen he who is denying bravo in the system?

Here you have your "disbeliever".

980 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
981 Those who opposed among the people of the decree and the
associators would not leave until a proof came to them.
982 A messenger from God reciting purified scripts.
983 In them are valuable booksdecrees.
984 And those who had previously received the decree did not divide
except after the proof came to them.
985 And they were not commanded except to serve God and be loyal
to His system, monotheists, and hold the communion/melding and
contribute towards purification. Such is the valuable system.
986 Those who opposed from the people of the decree and the
associators are in the fires of Hell abiding therein, those are the
worst of creation.
987 As for those who have faith and do good works, they are the best of
creation.
988 Their reward with their Lord are gardens of delight with
rivers flowing beneath them, abiding therein eternally. God is
satisfied with them, and they are satisfied with Him. That is for
whoever is concerned towards His Lord.

Red So anyone who disbelieves is the worst of creation? No those who opposed God's system are the worst of creation. They sought corruption, oppression and injustice. And their "gods" "told" them to do so.

God bless you

muslims

1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?

I believe this is not accurate. . .

"Those who oppose harmony and balance in the system are your kafiroon"

This is in response to the Man of Faith's argument that the word "Kafiroon" means "Opposition"

I couldn't agree with the translation. . and also,

I couldn't agree with all the translations that it means as "Disbeliever" or "Denier" etc. . .

. . .

What does it really mean ?

I believe that the actual word means "Contravener" ,

or we could say that it is more accurate to say it is. . .

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition"

. . .

Why it is a "Contravener"

To understand this we need to understand our relationship with God.

Our relationship with God is a "Contractual Relationship", it is a "Covenant" , ie. . .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?" <- This is our "Contract" or "Covenant" with God
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

This is further described as below. . .

Who break the COVENANT of Allah after CONTRACTING it
and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined
and cause corruption on earth.
It is those who are the losers.
2.27

And , when Allah took the COVENANT of the prophets, ,
"Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom
and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you,
you believe in him and support him."
said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"
They said, "We have acknowledged it."
He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
3.81

This is what Islam is all about, it is a "Contract" or a "Covenant" with God

Both parties have agreed to be bound by their Contract, or Covenant

This is equally true with Satan or Iblees , it is a Covenant or Contractual Relationship. . .

. . .

Conclusion

Because it is a contractual or a covenant , the the word accurate to describe this relationship is a "Contravener"

ie. those who contravene their Contract or Covenant with Allah

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition". . .

I believe it is "Contravener". . .

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.
to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

contra'vener

? n

contravention

? n

Please see below. . .

Man_of_Faith

Okay. At least it is somewhere in between what you said.

Peace out

Zulf

Peace all,

I wonder if the words we say are more in disagreement than the ideas we are trying to convey.

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.
to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but to me it seems that br. muslims means that the discussed word means contravene which in turn means to break our covenant with the Creator. At the same time it seems to me that br. MoF says that the word at hand means oppose. Isn't it the system of the Creator that is being opposed? Isn't that the same as breaking the covenant? Am I wrong in thinking that the covenant would include the follow the entire system of the Creator (with sincere effort and intentions)? How can we understand the covenant and uphold it while we don't understand the system put in place by the Creator? I don't think it is possible, because we cannot know the Creator directly, but rather only through the signs in the Creation and through what is inspired to us. So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Let me know where I've misunderstood, if at all.

Best regards

Man_of_Faith

Peace Zulf,

The word that he just picked does mean virtually the same thing. It is just plagiarism and the word does not have any complicated meaning but a quite primitive one like oppose with no specification of what.

Anyway, please bring the topic to the other thread that muslims created and bring that garbage out of my thread. It is off-topic.

God bless you

Existential1

So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Yes, they are. It is semantics, really.

peace