Non performers of As-Salaat are not true believers

Wakas

Please visit your thread Assalat alwusta and see the image and schedule of five Salat.

That is not what I asked, or the points I was making.

In any case, if you have completed your answers to my 9 questions, based on what you have replied here in this thread I will give my response.
The reason I asked for how long you have been reading/studying Quran is that I want to know how long you have taken to come up with what you have. I know that this bit of information is ultimately irrelevant, but I think it serves as an indicator, because as you likely know Traditionalist "scholars" openly admit 5 daily salat is not from Quran and they have collectively been studying this for 1000+ years. It is highly likely that IF it was sound to extract 5 daily salat from Quran they would be the first people to make a case for this.
In recent times, people have attempted to extract 5 daily salat from Quran, such as yourself, and the problems they invariably run into are aptly demonstrated by your study.

That is why I asked you the questions I did. I did not take long to compile my list of Qs either, nor did I ask all Qs that I could have. In any case, you did not answer them to my satisfaction, in fact far from it, but that's just me, so now that you have replied to all 9 questions, I have compiled them in this thread as a reference.

Readers can read them, then make up their own minds if you have come up with a sound proposal for 5 daily salat or not. In my view, you have not as it is full of problems. The same problems that have been repeated by others and will no doubt be repeated in future.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.0

Thank you for your time. Peace.

Mazhar

I know that this bit of information is ultimately irrelevant, but I think it serves as an indicator, because as you likely know Traditionalist "scholars" openly admit 5 daily salat is not from Quran and they have collectively been studying this for 1000+ years.

Can you please name 2-3 "traditionalist scholars" who admitted like this?

ansmeh1998

Brother Mazhar Salaam,

I think you need a little bit more study to understand the term 'Mominoon'. As far as I understand, the primary duty of the 'Mominoon' is to play an important role in execution/enforcement of law, as is inferred from the verses - 971 and 9105. So, one has to see as to how responsibilities attached with a Momin including the observance of Salat fit in the exercise of discharging his duties in the system of Governance. Do you think this is a relevant perspective to look at the issue?

Salaam!

Mazhar

In any case, if you have completed your answers to my 9 questions, based on what you have replied here in this thread I will give my response.
The reason I asked for how long you have been reading/studying Quran is that I want to know how long you have taken to come up with what you have. I know that this bit of information is ultimately irrelevant, but I think it serves as an indicator, because as you likely know Traditionalist "scholars" openly admit 5 daily salat is not from Quran and they have collectively been studying this for 1000+ years. It is highly likely that IF it was sound to extract 5 daily salat from Quran they would be the first people to make a case for this.

Please rebut if these five timings are not mentioned in Qur'aan specifically with As-Salat?
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg

Please remember http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/01.Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20003/34.%20Tarfan%20Toi%20Ra%20Fa/2.gif is dual signifiying two; its Noon is dropped being in construct.

Wakas

Can you please name 2-3 "traditionalist scholars" who admitted like this?

All Traditionalist "scholars" that I have read cite the isra and miraj story for the fixing of 5, not an explicit Quranic injunction, e.g. Ibn Kathir quote
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600954

There were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers....

hawk99

Brother Hawk99, you have put Prophet Idris (PBUH) before Prophet Ibrahim(PBUH) in the timeline. Can you kindly substantiate this positioning, as Brother Mazhar does not agree with this arrangement because it does not suit his designs. Please do reply since it is very important.

Salaam!

Peace ansmeh1998,

As far as my biblical memory goes Idris who lived before the flood preceded Noah
who was the ancestor of Abraham. However, and you may need to research this
yourself, but off the top of my head prostration occurred after Abraham in the bible,
when his name was abram.

God bless

peace

ansmeh1998

Please rebut if these five timings are not mentioned in Qur'aan specifically with As-Salat?

To the best of my understanding, I find three shifts (duty hours) to run the system of Governance effectively and incessantly i.e.

(i) (a) First part of the day ( ) + Near parts of the night ( &#1616 - (Al-Quran - 1778 refers)
(b) Changing over to take place in the morning and be called ( &#1616 - (Al-Quran - 2458 refers)
(c) One can take the duration of Morning Shift from 5.00 Am to 1.00 PM i.e. 8 hours (subject to adjustment depending upon the season).

(ii) (a) Second part of the day ( ) + Near parts of the night ( &#1616 - (Al-Quran - 1778 refers)
(b) Changing over to take place in the afternoon and be called ( &#1609 - (Al-Quran - 2238 and 2458 refer)
(c) One can take the duration of Afternoon Shift from 1.00 Am to 9.00 PM i.e. 8 hours (subject to adjustment depending upon the season).

(ii) (a) From complete sunset ( &#1616 till dusk part of the night ( ) - (Al-Quran - 11114 refers)
(b) Changing over to take place in the morning and be called ( &#1616 - (Al-Quran - 2458 refers)
(c) One can take the duration of Night Shift from 9.00 PM to 5.00 AM i.e. 8 hours (subject to adjustment depending upon the season).

Salaam!

ansmeh1998

Peace ansmeh1998,

As far as my biblical memory goes Idris who lived before the flood preceded Noah
who was the ancestor of Abraham. However, and you may need to research this
yourself, but off the top of my head prostration occurred after Abraham in the bible,
when his name was abram.

God bless
peace

Thanks brother Hawk99 for sharing the valuable information. To the best of my understanding, what I find from Al-Quran - 1958-59 that Prophet Idris (PBUH) was very much among the observant of Salat. As such, the insistence for non-existence of Salat before Prophet Ibrah(PBUH) becomes devoid of merit.

Salaam!

Bender

Hawk, Salam

Believer Whoever pronounces making it public that he believes in Allah the Exalted, Qur'aan, Injeel before it and all the Books of Allah revealed in time line; all the Messengers of Him, the Angels and the Last Day.

Salaamun alayka,

RED How do you understand the red part of this verse
4028

salaam,
Bender

ps. maybe you missed my previous question ( reply 114 ), if it's not much timeconsuming for you, then I like to know your answer, thx!!!

Mazhar

We are talking about Momin of today after Qur'aan not in the timeline.

GODsubmitter

This debate is easy to resolve

"IF THE ABODE OF THE HEREAFTER WAS EXCLUSIVELY FOR YOU AND NOT FOR OTHER PEOPLE, THEN YOU SHOULD WISH FOR DEATH IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL!"
(294)

Salam / Peace

Exactly!
Although this ayat is directed to the Jews, or Sons of Israel, it can be applied to many "self-righteous" folk...

Mazhar

Peace Wakas,

Please rebut if these five timings are not mentioned in Qur'aan specifically with As-Salat?
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg

Please remember http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/01.Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20003/34.%20Tarfan%20Toi%20Ra%20Fa/2.gif is dual signifiying two; its Noon is dropped being in construct.

Bender

We are talking about Momin of today after Qur'aan not in the timeline.

Salaamun alayka,

And where can the momin of today find evidence from The Quran that he "Whoever pronounces making it public that he believes in Allah the Exalted" ?
And what exactly should he make public? And to who? And does an anknowlegement of that/those person(s) make him a momin? And to who did they (=the ones to who he had to make it public to validate his imam) make it public? and and and...

Salaam,
Bender

savage_carrot

And what exactly should he make public? And to who? And does an anknowlegement of that/those person(s) make him a momin? And to who did they (=the ones to who he had to make it public to validate his imam) make it public?
One should scream "I'M MOMIN" in every public library...until they throw you out. Or one could whisper "I'm Batman" but doubt it would have the intended effect.

god1quran1

Salam Mazhar,

I was away for a while so could not follow this topic. Sorry about that.

Continuing ...

Can I ask why you have conveniently avoided answering the key question in post # 50?

From post # 50
I think you have completely missed the main point. If as-salaat is concerned with standing and observing "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" how does it involve Shuaib communicating with the Madyan people about setting up partners with God? Why would a ritual performed by shuaib upset the leaders of Madyan? Unless of course it is more than a ritual.

The traditional translation of 1187 is

They said, "O Shu'ayb, does your prayer command you that we should leave what our fathers worship or not do with our wealth what we please? Indeed, you are the forbearing, the discerning!"

How does "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" or prayer ritual command Shuaib to involve himself in other's affairs?

If Salat is to be performed by Shuaib as a ritual 5 times a day, it should have no bearing on the lives of the Madyan people.

Just peruse the text where AsSallat is discussed and you will find all such reformative instructions alongwith it prescribed for People of Book, and believers.

Shouldn't that ring a bell then that salat is much more than a ritual?

Also please provide real world examples of how ritually praying 5 times a day by an individual helps with reforming a society?

And can you do me a favor and not overuse the rules of grammar as arguments in your posts. At the end of the day, salat is a noun and we are trying to assign meaning to this word based not only on rules of grammar but also the words (that have their own meaning) that surround this noun.

Thanks

Mazhar

Pl visit page 6.

People are addressing the Messenger and are talking about what is expected from them according to Messenger's message. He is demonstrating in his Salat absolute and sole allegiance to one Sustainer Lord.

Mazhar

And can you do me a favor and not overuse the rules of grammar as arguments in your posts. At the end of the day, salat is a noun and we are trying to assign meaning to this word based not only on rules of grammar but also the words (that have their own meaning) that surround this noun.

Ayahs are quoted in the Article which show all the words related to this noun.
Grammar is needed for the parsing of the sentence to know inter relationship of words and their role for determining semantics of the sentence.

god1quran1

Pl visit page 6.

People are addressing the Messenger and are talking about what is expected from them according to Messenger's message. He is demonstrating in his Salat absolute and sole allegiance to one Sustainer Lord.

Peace Mazhar,

I am not sure where you are asking me to look??

In any case, you have initiated this thread with a very confrontational title and yet you continue to avoid a direct question that I have asked you more than a few times concerning Shuaib's salat. This is very unfortunate (

I have also looked at your article and I can see you have added your own understanding of salat in many places that has absolutely no support from words in Quran verses you have quoted. An example, in your article, you translate the verse below as

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/023.%20Al%20Momenoon/23.009a.gif

And the true believers who have attained perpetual success are those who remain vigilant for regularly performing their Sala'waat Five time bound Protocol of Servitude and Allegiance.

Even a layman like me can see that the verb used with noun alawtihim is to guard. There is no verb that equates to "to perform" yet you have chosen to extrapolate your own understanding to translate this verse. To repeat the only action on the noun Salat in this verse is to guard and NOT to perform prayers 5 times a day as you suggest in your article. Why someone who has a very strong grasp of the Arabic language would choose to translate the verse in this way is completely beyond me?

You have also not addressed 1187 in your article which makes it an incomplete document in which you liberally add the verb "to perform" in the english translation even though it does not exist in the arabic text to support your case that salat is a ritual to be "performed" 5 times a day.

To conclude, you have answer the following 2 questions (for now as I have many more) for the title you have given this thread to have some merit.

From post # 50
I think you have completely missed the main point. If as-salaat is concerned with standing and observing "time bound protocol of allegiance and servitude" how does it involve Shuaib communicating with the Madyan people about setting up partners with God? Why would a ritual performed by shuaib upset the leaders of Madyan? Unless of course it is more than a ritual.
Where is the equivalent word for "to perform" that you keep using in your translations to be found in the Quran?

god1quran1

Ayahs are quoted in the Article which show all the words related to this noun.
Grammar is needed for the parsing of the sentence to know inter relationship of words and their role for determining semantics of the sentence.

Quoting the rules of grammar are meaningless if you avoid a direct question I have asked you multiple times.

peace.

Mazhar

Even a layman like me can see that the verb used with noun alawtihim is to guard. There is no verb that equates to "to perform" yet you have chosen to extrapolate your own understanding to translate this verse. To repeat the only action on the noun Salat in this verse is to guard and NOT to perform prayers 5 times a day as you suggest in your article. Why someone who has a very strong grasp of the Arabic language would choose to translate the verse in this way is completely beyond me?

Do you think that "alawtihim" is some sunstance-object which they have to guard upon?