What is Islam?

hawk99

Peace muslims,

Allah will surely guide the believers, for we hear and obey, but one must be careful
because shaytayn also speaks.

Adolph Hitler was far from rational, but many thought he was rational.

If you ask them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they will say,
"GOD." Say, "Why then do you set up idols beside GOD? If GOD willed any adversity
for me, can they relieve such an adversity? And if He willed a blessing for me, can they
prevent such a blessing?" Say, "GOD is sufficient for me." In Him the trusters shall trust.

Quran = fire = not from God, then from who?

God bless

peace

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

We cannot ignore the fact that the age of the scripture has made it difficult to interpret properly. Bias, natural and deliberate changes of word meaning and all sorts of things affect the interpretation.

It was already proven with 434 for example.

God bless you

muslims

Peace muslims,

Allah will surely guide the believers, for we hear and obey, but one must be careful
because shaytayn also speaks.

Adolph Hitler was far from rational, but many thought he was rational.

If you ask them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they will say,
"GOD." Say, "Why then do you set up idols beside GOD? If GOD willed any adversity
for me, can they relieve such an adversity? And if He willed a blessing for me, can they
prevent such a blessing?" Say, "GOD is sufficient for me." In Him the trusters shall trust.

Quran = fire = not from God, then from who?

God bless

peace

Salam hawk99,

It is better to fully understand an argument before making an opposition.

Secondly ... why "be careful"?

Indeed, there is for him (Shaytan)
no authority
over those
who have believed
and rely upon their Lord
(<a href="http//quran.com/16/99">1699</a&gt

Thirdly, what is "rational" according to the Qur'an?

For example, (<a href="http//quran.com/2/18">218</a&gt .. what does it mean to be deaf, dumb and blind?

What does Allah refer to?

God bless.

muslims

There's so much more than the Qur'an (<a href="http//quran.com/24/35">2435</a> an introductory Book, Guidance or Manual.

Sunnatullah
Just and Balance

He created
the heavens
and earth
in truth

High is He above
what they associate with Him

He created man
from a sperm-drop
then at once
he is a clear adversary

And the grazing livestock
He has created for you
in them is warmth
and benefits
and from them you eat

And for you in them
is beauty
when you bring them in
and when you send them out

And they carry your loads
to a land
you could not have reached
except with difficulty to yourselves

Indeed, your Lord is Kind and Merciful

And
the horses
mules
and donkeys
for you to ride
and adornment

And He creates
that which you do not know

And upon Allah is the direction of the (right) way
and among
the various paths
are those deviating

And if He willed
He could have guided you all <-- Guided to what? Qur'an or the sign in the Sunnatullah?

It is He
who sends down
rain from the sky
from it is drink
and from it is foliage
in which you pasture

He causes to grow for you
thereby the crops
olives
palm trees
grapevines
and from all the fruits

Indeed in that
is a sign
for a people
who give thought

And He has subjected for you
the night
and day
and the sun
and moon
and the stars
are subjected
by His command

Indeed in that
are signs
for a people
who reason

And whatever
He multiplied for you
on the earth
of varying colors

Indeed in that
is a sign
for a people
who remember

And it is He
who subjected the sea for you
to eat from it
tender meat
and to extract from it ornaments
which you wear

And you see the ships
plowing through it
and that you may seek
of His bounty
and perhaps
you will be grateful

And He has cast into the earth
firmly set mountains
lest it shift with you
and rivers
and roads
that you may be guided

And landmarks
And by the stars
they are guided

Then is He who creates like one who does not create?

So will you not be reminded?

Indeed
the worst of living creatures
in the sight of Allah
are the deaf
and dumb
who do not use reason
(<a href="http//quran.com/8/22">822</a&gt

The example of those
who were entrusted with the Torah
and then did not take it on
is like that
of a donkey
who carries volumes
Wretched is the example of the people
who deny
the signs of Allah
And Allah does not guide
the wrongdoing people
(<a href="http//quran.com/62/5">625</a&gt

hawk99

Peace Man of Faith,

The interpretation of scripture is not difficult at all. The main points of salvation are there in
Quran to insure that the adherent will have a safe journey to the ultimate goal.

Since I am not one to beat my wife, that portion of the ayat is of no need to me.

Peace muslims

Salam hawk99,

It is better to fully understand an argument before making an opposition.

Secondly ... why "be careful"?

Indeed, there is for him (Shaytan)
no authority
over those
who have believed
and rely upon their Lord
(<a href="http//quran.com/16/99">1699</a&gt

Thirdly, what is "rational" according to the Qur'an?

For example, (<a href="http//quran.com/2/18">218</a&gt .. what does it mean to be deaf, dumb and blind?

What does Allah refer to?

God bless.

2/18 is an allegorical directed at the hypocrites 2/8-19.

If you say Quran = fire you are not relying on your lord but something other than your lord.
Be careful of the "other" than your lord.

He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses?which
constitute the essence of the scripture?as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.
Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to
create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning
thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this?all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

I expect you to say "that does not apply to me".

God bless

peace

muslims

Peace muslims

2/18 is an allegorical directed at the hypocrites 2/8-19.

If you say Quran = fire you are not relying on your lord but something other than your lord.
Be careful of the "other" than your lord.

He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses?which
constitute the essence of the scripture?as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses.
Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to
create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning
thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this?all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

I expect you to say "that does not apply to me".

God bless

peace

Salam hawk99,

By the way, Adolph Hitler was not rational in a way suggested by the Qur'an.

Adolph Hitler was far from rational, but many thought he was rational.

Since you are saying 218 is allegorical ...

Then why you are inconsistently suggesting "rational thought according to the Qur'an" is equal to "rational thought of Adolf Hitler", and even far advance than the "rational thought according to the Qur'an"?

What is "rational thought according to the Qur'an"?

and

What is "rational thought of Adolf Hitler"?

Secondly, "Qur'an (fire)" does not equal to "Qur'an = fire"

It is also allegorical to assume "Qur'an (fire)" is "Qur'an = fire" since I'm a born Muslim, living in a Muslim's country, and understand the Qur'an is not Fire. Further, the composition and the context of "Qur'an (fire)" is not equal to "Qur'an = fire". What does in brackets mean?

Round brackets (also called parentheses) are mainly used to separate off information that isn?t essential to the meaning of the rest of the sentence. <a href="http//oxforddictionaries.com/words/brackets">Reference</a>

That's why it is better for you to fully understand an argument, its conclusion, premises and assumptions before making an opposition. This is critical thinking.

God bless. pr

hawk99

Peace muslims,

I apparently cannot get through to you, maybe we have a language barrier.

I make an easy sentences like "so and so is rational according to some" and you do not
understand such a simple sentence, how can that be?

Did you say Quran equals fire was allegorical? Your posts are long, meandering,
and contain pictures so I may have missed your point in that regard. Why can't
the Quran just be the word of God, what's with the esoterics anyway?

God bless

peace

muslims

Peace muslims,

I apparently cannot get through to you, maybe we have a language barrier.

I make an easy sentences like "so and so is rational according to some" and you do not
understand such a simple sentence, how can that be?

Did you say Quran equals fire was allegorical? Your posts are long, meandering,
and contain pictures so I may have missed your point in that regard. Why can't
the Quran just be the word of God, what's with the esoterics anyway?

God bless

peace

Salam hawk99,

Okay, maybe you do not understand what is a "bracket", and your objection is not so serious to be taken into consideration.

( ) vs. =

God bless you. pr

Bender

The Heavens and the Earth shall obey Adam

Salam

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things. And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, who shall know the earth and heavens as taught by Allah.

Please note the bold parts above and write your ante to it.

Salaam,

RED If you refer to a verse then please give the verse numbers it makes it easy for the readers especially if you use a translation.
I guess you are referring here to 229 and part of 230

GREEN yes I know the bold part, it says A khalif and not MY khalif

BLUE I do not understand what you meant here.

And to your next doubt if I actually understand what I am saying, read below

GREEN Not sure what you think I am doubting, I am very certain of what I am saying.

BLUE typo?

And He taught adam all the names in the heavens and the earth. Then presented them to the angels - which knowledge they never possessed.

And when Allah said to the angels Make obeisance to adam; they did obeisance.

The angels shall obey adam's command by Allah's leave

BLUE I think you misunderstood.
Allah commands almalaikat to do sujud to Adam, that does not mean that Adam can command almalaikat.

Did you ever commanded an malaikat? If so I like to know how and what you commandd them.

even as the most powerful eight of them carry the entire domain of Allah's heavens and earth, the arsh. Allah created the domain of the earth and the heavens for adam and not for Himself, for He is needless of what we need or any of His own created things.

GREEN you did not give me an ayaat for this.

And ofcourse Allah is needless of any thing.

First we complete our understanding on this one, that the heavens and the earth shall obey adam, the possessor of its knowledge by the leave of Allah before going to your next part of the post.

They obey Allah and ONLY Allah. I really do not understand how you understand it.

Can you give me answer to this question
Allah commands the sun to rise from the east can you command it to rise from the west?

Besides this my initial comment was on "Allah has His khalifa on earth", do you still have the same understanding on this?

Salaam,
Bender

Bender

Salam Bender,

It is true, the specific words are not in the Qur'an, but it's descriptive definitions are everywhere in the Qur'an. Therefore, it is merely how human use their "rational thoughts" to understand how Allah represent Himself to human beings. To simplified for beginner students to understand Islam, and who are deaf, dumb and blind to understand reality. Is this wrong and are we prohibited from using our rational thoughts?

Salaamun alayka,

Sorry did not understand your point.

Salaam,
Bender

muslims

Salaamun alayka,

Sorry did not understand your point.

Salaam,
Bender

Salam Bender,

This is much like a Sunni Forum.

Peace

hawk99

Salam hawk99,

Okay, maybe you do not understand what is a "bracket", and your objection is not so serious to be taken into consideration.

( ) vs. =

Apparently we have a barrier of some sort, symbols, numerology, hidden meanings and
mysterious esoteric communications have no value to me at this point in time. handshake

may God bless you

peace

muslims

Apparently we have a barrier of some sort, symbols, numerology, hidden meanings and
mysterious esoteric communications have no value to me at this point in time. handshake

may God bless you

peace

Salam hawk99,

Understood, I will try my best to avoid using the "(<a href="https//www.google.com/search?q=what+is+bracket&oq=what+is+bracket&aqs=chrome..69i57j0j69i60j0l2.467j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=what+is+a+bracket">bracket</a&gt".

Should Muslims ignore the following signs?

He causes to grow for you
thereby the crops
olives
palm trees
grapevines
and from all the fruits

Indeed in that
is a sign
for a people
who give thought

And He has subjected for you
the night
and day
and the sun
and moon
and the stars
are subjected
by His command

Indeed in that
are signs
for a people
who reason

And whatever
He multiplied for you
on the earth
of varying colors

Indeed in that
is a sign
for a people
who remember

Should Muslims ignore all the signs in <a href="http//quran.com/55/10-78">Sura ar-Rahman</a>?

All the "<a href="http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ayy#(216441)">Signs</a>" in this link?

Should Muslims ignore the implications of the following ayaat?

None can dispute about the Signs of Allah but the Unbelievers.

All the above might have some sort of symbols, numerology, hidden meanings and mysterious esoteric communications that have no value for some Muslims; at this point in time.

Just asking. handshake

God bless. pr

Man_of_Faith

Salaam brother hawk99,

Basically you are right, the main points are there and all it takes is some rationality. However, it is still difficult to interpret the original meaning of certain passages from the Arabic script. Now, as you said, it may be irrelevant for our salvation as long as we use sensible thinking and acting. Like I have said many times before, the fundamental criteria for salvation are

Belief in God
The eternal existence
Righteous living (definition easily understood from context)

This is also what I consider Islam.
God bless you

muslims

An open discussion on the issue of salvation

This private relationship between man and his Creator is essentially founded on the idea of salvation. Salvation is common to all religions, even to Buddhism which does not acknowledge the existence of God. The idea of salvation was born out of the belief that man's sojourn on earth was one of bondage. How to extricate himself from that bondage thus became the main object of his life.

Islam on the other hand, is neither such a relationship between man and God, nor is it characterized by the experience of an individual of a subjective nature, but is essentially a "Code of Life," regulating the conduct of affairs concerning the individual as well as the collective life of human beings. Secondly, it does not consider man?s life on earth a period of bondage in. which case the .idea of salvation does not arise.

On the contrary, having assigned to man a very high position in the universe, Islam expects him to take up the challenge of life boldly in order to harness the forces of nature for the development of his own self and the larger community of mankind.

The fallacy of considering Islam a religion springs from the fact that absolute "faith" in God is of fundamental importance to it, as it is supposed to be more or less so in all religions, past and present, but it is not only the " faith" in God that should serve as a criterion in arriving at a correct estimate of one or the other. The real question we should be concerned with is, what is the concept of God which is supposed to be the common factor?

...

Comparison

A comparative study of religion or madhhab, and din, should help us understand the vital and fundamental characteristics of each and the differences between the two

Every follower of a madhhab is satisfied that he has established a communion with the Almighty, and the objective of each individual is his own salvation.

The aim of din on the other hand is the welfare and progress of all mankind, and the character and constitution of a society indicates whether or not it is founded upon the Divine Law; <a href="http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR_20.htm">Islam A Challenge To Religion</a>

Other <a href="http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/ICR/ICR_9.htm">The Quranic Concept of Salvation</a>

Moreover, in the Quran, the emphasis is on the positive content of salvation. It is not conceived as a negation of pain and liberation from evil. It consists in the sense of fulfilment, the feeling of realisation and the thrill of expansion. Man is endowed with a number of potentialities. By developing these he reaches his full stature and qualifies for still higher stages awaiting him. Man must discover in what direction his self can develop and then he must create the conditions, physical as well as social, which favour the development. His main task in this life is to develop his self by conquering the forces of nature and employing them for the development of mankind

He is indeed successful who causeth his self to grow, and he is indeed a failure who stunteth it (91 9-10).

The primary function of din is the development of human personality. It determines man's outlook on life and makes life meaningful to him. It aims at the transformation of man's character by organizing his desires into a harmonious system of living. To the extent that it succeeds in this aim, it eliminates the sources of internal conflict and enables man to live at peace with himself and at peace with his environment. Success and happiness are basically the fruits of a genuine personal conviction. But din has its social side as well. It is concerned with man as he exists in a network of social relationship. It does not isolate man from his social setting ; rather, it brings him closer to his fellow-beings. It has a meaning for man as an individual; but it has a far richer meaning for him as a member of a social group. Din leads man to the realization that he can develop his potentialities only by co-operating with his fellow men in the attainment of common ends.

DrGm

We do accept your comment. May Allah shower us His Blessing.

Quote from DrGm on Yesterday at 123206 AM
he last day.

But I am looking for an answer for which I asked for Reoply # 104
You Wrote
<<<<<......>>>>>

Mohammed is a messenger and the seal of the prophets. moreover i do not believe, Adam.. Nuh.. Aad.. Ibrahim..Musa..Isa..Mohammed.. have any direct blood line, they are examples in the path of peace for humankind. every believer in the path of peace are the descendants of prophets, messengers, noblemen, witnesses, righteous, martyrs.. Allah is all knowing

<<<....>>>>>

Could you please explain further "moreover i do not believe, Adam.. Nuh.. Aad.. Ibrahim..Musa..Isa..Mohammed.. have any direct blood line, they are examples in the path of peace for humankind"...

In fact those Prophets have lived and shown the Right Path right ?. Regarding blood line its agreed. There are some sects claims that their fore ...fore fathers..fore fathers belongs to prophet hood etc. That forms a kind of Hadith which you and I discard straightaway.

I kindly asking whats your stand on "moreover i do not believe.. Adam....."

peace brother,

my stand? there is no more to add. or do not know whether i understand your question.

peace.

hawk99

Salaam brother hawk99,

Basically you are right, the main points are there and all it takes is some rationality. However, it is still difficult to interpret the original meaning of certain passages from the Arabic script. Now, as you said, it may be irrelevant for our salvation as long as we use sensible thinking and acting. Like I have said many things before, the fundamental criteria for salvation are

Belief in God
The eternal existence
Righteous living (definition easily understood from context)

This is also what I consider Islam.
God bless you

Peace Man of Faith,

Your understanding and insight of what is required for salvation is well documented in this
forum and is much appreciated and testament to your good character. I thank you.

God bless

peace

hawk99

Salam hawk99,

Understood, I will try my best to avoid using the "(<a href="https//www.google.com/search?q=what+is+bracket&oq=what+is+bracket&aqs=chrome..69i57j0j69i60j0l2.467j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=what+is+a+bracket">bracket</a&gt".

Should Muslims ignore the following signs?

Should Muslims ignore all the signs in <a href="http//quran.com/55/10-78">Sura ar-Rahman</a>?

All the "<a href="http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ayy#(216441)">Signs</a>" in this link?

Should Muslims ignore the implications of the following ayaat?

None can dispute about the Signs of Allah but the Unbelievers.

All the above might have some sort of symbols, numerology, hidden meanings and mysterious esoteric communications that have no value for some Muslims; at this point in time.

Just asking. handshake

God bless. pr

Peace muslims,

I sincerely have difficulty understanding your point, and I am in no way intending to be
offensive, maybe someone can paraphrase what you are trying to say, or are you asking
should muslims ignore the Quran?

God bless

peace

muslims

Peace muslims,

I sincerely have difficulty understanding your point, and I am in no way intending to be
offensive, maybe someone can paraphrase what you are trying to say, or are you asking
should muslims ignore the Quran?

God bless

peace

Salam hawk99,

Very well said.

God bless. handshake

DrGm

What does it take to move Islam from "Religion" to "Deen"?

peace,

those? who thought to make 'deen' a movement/group, created religion.

now, a proposal for a movement /group to make 'religion' into deen.

where as

2856 - It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest;

1043 - but can you guide the blind, even though they see not?

2781 - Nor can you lead the blind out of their error

heads of movement/religion/government/organisation

1197 - Unto Pharaoh and his chiefs but they followed the command of Pharaoh and the command of Pharaoh was no right

2079 - Pharaoh led his people astray instead of leading them right.

when we become part of group

4354 - ..and they obeyed him. Indeed, they were a people defiantly disobedient

the path of peace is for individual, our prophets, messengers stood firm in their covenant to God and by the leave of Allah lived their life as an example in the path of peace they wish for. this example united the wishful believers in God and His government.

a prophet/messenger is for the believers who need guidance towards Allah. this believers are always there right from the days of Adam till today, till the last day. a messenger is chosen for this believers for salvation if need arise by the leave of Allah.

these believers are known only by Allah. His grace removes them from their agony.

peace.