What is Islam?
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Brother, "authentic scholars" is not a "reason". . . it is appeal to authority, a fallacy
Brother, refute sholars, but using their work (translation, mushaf) is more worst than fallacy ;D
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4The first video is our main issue right now, but not the second....
I'm sad, someone like you believe so easily with youtube videos O0
Yes some videos is authentic/fact and uploaded by formal groups, but you must notice some videos is also fakes, jokes, misslead titles, provocations etcExample http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM0Ozn52pUc
People who don't understand Malay language will think if Indonesia and Malaysia was in war because East Kalimantan dispute and alleged separatist named "Republic of Sorona".
But actually this video is about Indonesian military drills and Republic Sorona is a fake rogue state and used for dramatized enemy. Malaysia didn't involved in that drill.
Plus the second video about alleged prosecution against Christian is a misslead news.
It's not muslims NGO who destroy the church but the government officials,
The church is HKBP, a Bataknese chruch and it's illegal because has no proper certificate.If you want to know, there are many illegal buildings in Indonesia and bulldozer in action is common thing in here.
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This what you and your scholars interpret, ie . . Muhammad's words is the indirect wahy of God. . .
wow now you spoke like scholar itself and know everything ;D
Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealedFirst notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in AhadithThe tafseer of An Najm ayat 4
Dalam ayat ini, Allah SWT menguatkan ayat 3; yakni bahwa Muhammad saw hanyalah mengatakan apa yang diperintahkan oleh Allah SWT untuk disampaikan kepada manusia secara sempurna, tidak ditambah-tambah dan tidak pula dikurangi menurut apa yang diwahyukan kepadanya.
Abdullah bin 'Amr bin 'As menulis setiap apa yang ia dengar dari Rasulullah saw, karena ia mau menghafalkannya. Tapi orang-orang Quraisy melarangnya. Mereka mengatakan mengapa ia menulis setiap perkataan Muhammad, sedangkan Muhammad itu adalah manusia biasa yang berkata dalam keadaan marah. Maka berhentilah Abdullah bin Umar menulis. Kemudian ia mendatangi Rasulullah saw, dan memberitahukan perihalnya itu. Maka bersabdalah Rasulullah sawArtinya
"Tulislah, demi Tuhan, tidak ada yang keluar dari perkataanku kecuali kebenaran".
(H.R. Ahmad dan Abu Daud)
Al Hafiz, Abu Bakar Al Bazzar mendapat riwayat dari Ahmad bin Mansyur, dari Abdullah bin Saleh, dari Al Lais, dari Ibnu Ajlan, dari Zaid bin Aslam, dari Abu Saleh dan dari Abu Hurairah bahwasanya Nabi Muhammad saw bersabdaArtinya
"Apa-apa yang aku katakan kepadamu bahwa ia dari Allah SWT, maka tidak ada keraguan padanya".
(HR. Abu Hurairah)
Dari Yunus, Lais, Muhammad bin Said bin Abu Said, dari Abu Hurairah mereka berkata bahwa Rasulullah saw bersabdaArtinya
"tidaklah aku berkata kecuali yang benar".
(HR. Abu Hurairah, Lihat Tafsir Al Maragi, hl. 45, juz 27, jilid IX)Daripada Ali bin Abi Thalib r.a. berkata telah bersabda Rasulullah saw.;
Sudah hampir sampai suatu masa di mana tidak tinggal lagi daripada Islam ini
kecuali hanya namanya, dan tidak tinggal daripada Al-Quran itu kecuali hanya tulisannya.
Masjid-masjid mereka tersergam indah, tetapi ia kosong daripada hidayah.
Ulama mereka adalah sejahat-jahat makhluk yang ada di bawah naungan langit.
Dari mereka berpunca fitnah (penipuan), dan kepada mereka fitnah (penipuan) ini akan kembali??
(HR al-Baihaqi)So you accuse me for not getting the hidayah?? pray in heretic masjid??
Sadar diri kau lah... you blame the great scholars like Syaf'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, Al-Ghazali etc and created your own tafseer with has no concept at all.
Hmm perhaps you're the only muslim who survived from punishment in the grave ???
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also in this verse
1644 with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.
Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.
Peace, read what is written and not read "into it" words that are not there.
What was it which they concealed and did not make clear to the humankind?3187 and when took the god agreement the ones given they of the book/writ to make clear they it to the humankind and not conceal it so threw they it behind backs theirs and purchased with it price of little of so wretched what are purchasing
1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder to make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting
6114 is besides the god arbitrator of and he the one has descended toward you the book/writ explained of and the ones gave we them the book/writ are knowing that it is descended from lord your in the right/truth so not being from the doubters
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Peace David Saidi,
It's the sign of speculations
No, it is not. It is the sign of logical conclusions based on the knowledge we have of what is good or not. And when you say "dead animal" then it is impossible to infer any other meaning than a logical conclusion based on the expression "dead animal". If you find a dead animal then it may as well have been sick or killed and infected by a predator. It does not take a wise guy to figure that out.
Naby is simply a person who received the wahy and the Rasool is the naby who became living example for the ummah for how to practice God's teaching.
The "best example" one has on how to practice what is decreed is to recite it.
141 Alif, Lam, Ra. a Book which We have revealed to you, , that you might bring mankind out of darknesses into the light by permission of their Lord - to the path of the Exalted in Might, the Praiseworthy -
You ought to realize that "o Muhammad" does not belong to the original narration.
It was a decree revealed to him that Muhammad recited to the people and because the discourse was explicitly received by Muhammad himself then obviously the passage is formulated this way. It is what Muhammad recites in the narration that will bring mankind out of darkness into the light. The information given to Muhammad is what brings people to the Light, and this is in the decree that is being revealed in the Recitation (Qur'an). Because Muhammad at the time was in possession of what was being revealed then obviously the passage is constructed that way.
From this verse we know if Muhammad is the human who have more authority to explain Quran.
It does not say a thing about explaining something, it talks about conveying a message, i.e. the decree that was being recited by the man.
Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.
And you believe that Muhammad was using three stones to wipe his rear end while answering the call of nature? Is that what you want people to think of him as a retard?
What exactly is it that you do not learn enough of while reciting the decree?
Phrophet sallahu'alayhi wa sallam said You know, actually I was given the Qur'an and something similar to the Qur'an. Know this, there will be a rich man who sat on the plush seat and he said, "Hold you the Qur'an. Whatever is said lawful in the Qur'an , then it's halal, otherwise whatever it is said illicit in the Al-Qur'an, then it's haraam . Surely anything that is forbidden by the Prophet, God also see it as haraam " (Takhrijul Msykat no 163)
Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.? (Sunan Abu Dawud)
16114 So eat from what God has provided you, that which is good and lawful, and be thankful for the blessing of God, if it is indeed He whom you serve.
16115 He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe ?This is lawful, and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.Why would Muhammad recite something of the decree and then make recorded in a hearsay that things are unlawful besides that? Which narrative do you believe more in? This or your beloved "hadith".
Open your eyes and see that you are misled and misguided.
God bless you
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Brother, refute sholars, but using their work (translation, mushaf) is more worst than fallacy ;D
That is because I am not a bigot, you are . . therefore I only see what is just or unjust.
and it is unjust to kill people and oppressed the minority in Indonesia.
The first video is our main issue right now, but not the second....
What are you saying ? It is not about oppression against the Christian minority in Indonesia? the issue of cancelling Church Permit ? rotfl
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBFhpvEX_O8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxA0Ss01dAhttp//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indonesia+oppressed+christians
How about Chinese minority?
You rape and burned them alive?
WARNING! VERY DISTURBED IMAGES
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
http//kerusuhan-mei-1998.blogspot.com/
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ypwStRa2kw/UsdV1whEbhI/AAAAAAAAC4c/r3hS6CrLN1A/s1600/kerusuhan-mei-1998.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jakarta+anti-chinese+riots+What's all this ?
They are Muslim but they killed, raped and burned people alive ? . . . and you support this kind of oppression ?
. . .
I'm sad, someone like you believe so easily with youtube videos O0
Yes some videos is authentic/fact and uploaded by formal groups, but you must notice some videos is also fakes, jokes, misslead titles, provocations etcWhat are you saying? This video is fake ? rotfl
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349349#msg349349. . .
and. . where is the ayat ?
You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .
Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.
What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ? -
First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in AhadithHow all that relates to the issue of our discussion ? Another circular reasoning ?
It seems that you don't even understand what is the issue and what people are saying, and what the Quran is saying. . .
The point is you said . .
Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)
533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,Meaning, you said the verse 53.3-5 is the authority for saying "Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy"
On the other hand, I prove that you and your scholars interpretation of verse 53.3-4 is totally wrong, a distortion of Allah's words. .
This is because the verse is about Muhammad and Gabriel,
not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy . . .Now we read the verse. . .
Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed
Taught to him by one intense in strength
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat"
The heart did not lie what it saw the wahy, ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . . rotfl
Therefore, who are interpreting the Quran by his own desire ?
As we can see from the above, the ayat is relating the wahy by Gabriel to Muhammad. . this is from the Quran.
and what is your reply ?
First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in AhadithHuh ? Do you know how to read the Quran, or another circular reasoning ? argument by repetition? confused
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong
Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrongTherefore, Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy, the scholars say so. I am right . . you are wrong rotfl
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1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder to make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting
Salaam Noon Waalqalami
to make clear
According to you there is no word "you" in there, but please pay notice with ta' in there )
I believe the Quran cannot be translated to literally or per-wordsIt was a decree revealed to him that Muhammad recited to the people and because the discourse was explicitly received by Muhammad himself then obviously the passage is formulated this way. It is what Muhammad recites in the narration that will bring mankind out of darkness into the light. The information given to Muhammad is what brings people to the Light, and this is in the decree that is being revealed in the Recitation (Qur'an). Because Muhammad at the time was in possession of what was being revealed then obviously the passage is constructed that way.
Salaam Man of Faith
Quran is God's words/wahy to Muhammad not the Bible who contains God's words + Jesus or other Phrophets's hadith -
and it is unjust to kill people and oppressed the minority in Indonesia.
then what is relation with our discussion??
You simply posting baseless videoshttp//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBFhpvEX_O8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxA0Ss01dAhttp//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Indonesia+oppressed+christians
I only recognized the second video by Aljazeera and this is still the same case with the previous one
Notice a person named Manurung in there, he is a BatakneseThe other videos somewhat the picture is true, but not the dubbing or commentatories
Do you think when Christian do missionary activities, make moslems convert to their religon, we muslims just sit down and do nothing??Example of Christian misionary activities
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEYCZMlJz1g
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CToQS6zohCM
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWVCT-GeUUYou don't know nothing the situation in this country bro......
But it's time I told you, Christian may minorities in here, but some of their chruch and ministries was backed by international missinaries organizations stationed in some countries like German and America.
The work is simple, if a missionary capable to convert non christian (lost sheep) into their religion, then the misionary will get reward from that organizations.Watch the explanation from former Christian http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sY4yXI7M00
You get many her videos by type "Irine Handono" in search tab.
The
The issue is not simple as you think, perhaps in Malaysia there is none or lest such a thing since Malaysia adopted sharia in the constitutionYou may heard in a video mentioned "Laskar Jihad" right??
The first purpose of this group first is to defend moslems from Christian attack in Sulawesi
But I don't know why this suddenly turned into Taleban-like.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskar_Jihad
Remember the Christians also did many sin against us (muslims) during the Poso and Ambon conflict.
How about Chinese minority?
You rape and burned them alive?
By using the word "you" means you accuse me to attack the chinese.
Sorry to said this, but I WARN YOU!!! to don't so easily play slander to other person
Beside that, I'm not in Jakarta during the riots
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
http//kerusuhan-mei-1998.blogspot.com/
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ypwStRa2kw/UsdV1whEbhI/AAAAAAAAC4c/r3hS6CrLN1A/s1600/kerusuhan-mei-1998.jpg
http//www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jakarta+anti-chinese+riots+The whole image and video is FAKE
The 1998 protest is Anti Suhato protest not anti chinese and the main victims mostly colleger and protestestors who get shot and annilihated by military forces.
Plus the people who get burned are the looters in Jogja plaza, the story is during the riots some organized groups invite people to loots the goods in that plaza then when the crowd inside that plaze, that organized group burned them aliveI told you, yes the chinese cassualties is exist but they're very little,
More detail http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtpW-5ObbKA
You don't understand, what typically chinese is.The chinese is type of ethnic who uphold ethnic chauvinim.
Means you give bad in their name especially their surname and perhaps you do public execution against them then the whole chinese will get anger and using some ways to take revenge.The picture you posted was very anonymous and don't know who really upload this.
Expecially this http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_xOuLnnPISSw/Rq7fuOCpjBI/AAAAAAAAAAg/nYgZRW7JAX4/s1600-h/KERUSUHAN+MEI.jpg
I'm gotta laugh when see this, how can the creator of this image can did easily by matching the victims with the irrelevant photos.
First notice the first photo who see three mens rape alleged chinese girl, if you want to know it's the Japanese porn video
DO YOU EVER REALIZE IT, THE HUMAN RIGHTS BOTH FROM LOCAL AND FOREIGN NEVER RELEASE THAT KIND OF IMAGES NOR THE IMAGE NEVER SHOWING IN THE MEDIA LIKE TV.PLUS THE MOST IMAGE ALWAYS IN CHINESE LANGUAGE.WHY YOU DON"T REALIZE IT INSTEAD BELIEVE THE HOAXS SO EASILY??
What are you saying? This video is fake ? rotfl
I never said the Ahmadiya video is a fake!!!
I said if the second video about HKBP church is a missleading newsNOW MUSLIMS LOOK UPON YOU!!! YOU WHOLE ACTIVITIES IN HERE ONLY PUT SLANDER AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS AND MAKE THEIR POSISTION TO BECAME WEAKENED IN THE PUBLIC
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Just see how you twist every word in this forum . . . rotfl
yet there is still no answer, over and over again
merely diverting the real issue and circular reasoning . . . .http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349643#msg349643You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .
Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.
What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?https//encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcTZYHdoAZxPgCYtraY_6VEWV3wH7LS_lXYa4K5Z44vsr8g0LCIp
. . .
You simply posting baseless videos
Baseless video? That's how it is always being, they deserved to be killed like that. he . . .
. . .
The issue is not simple as you think
Yes, it is always not as simple as people think , and many here don't understand. .
Only you understand why they should be killed like animals. . .
Sorry to said this, but WARN YOU!!! to don't so easily play slander to other person
Beside that, I'm not in Jakarta during the riots
What difference does it make ?
You support and approved such action, just look how you defend those barbarians in this forum.
. . .
The 1998 protest is Anti Suhato protest not anti chinese and the main victims mostly colleger and protestestors who get shot and annilihated by military forces.
Plus the people who get burned are the looters in Jogja plaza, the story is during the riots some organized groups invite people to loots the goods in that plaza then when the crowd inside that plaze, that organized group burned them aliveI told you, yes the chinese cassualties is exist but they're very little
Anti Suharto and killed the Chinese Minority . . this is Islam rotfl
- the news said 1250 burned alive in one situations , rape and killing of the chinese minority
warning, very disturbed images
http//www.mobilbaru.info/2014/04/pemerkosaan-wanita-etnis-tionghoa-di.htmland of course, these minorities are justified to be killed, raped and burned alive. .
so as the Ahmadiyyah killing, it is all justified. . those who killed them are Muslim
so as those 1 million Papuan Native and their traditional weapons, they deserved to be killed and burned alive like animals. right ?http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349349#msg349349
. . .
You don't understand, what typically chinese is.The chinese is type of ethnic who uphold ethnic chauvinim.
Means you give bad in their name especially their surname and perhaps you do public execution against them then the whole chinese will get anger and using some ways to take revenge.Of course I don't understand the Chinese
They are 42% of the Malaysian population
While Indonesia has less than 1% than the Indonesian population. . you understand them better. he he. .and see? What is the difference between you and those barbarian ?
I started to sense that there is no difference . . . It is the same person.
and it is a laughing matter for you to see those people were killed, raped and burn alive . . it is porn videos!!I'm gotta laugh when see this, how an the creator of this image can did easily by matching the victims with the irrelevant photos.
First notice the first photo who see three mens rape alleged chinese girl, if you want to know it's the Japanese porn video
So as in Acheh . . .porn vidoes and 600 rapes in a year, ie. 50 per month
http//web.comhem.se/~u99506137/RI-Biadap.htm
http//freewestpapua.wordpress.com/2009/09/24/shocking-images-of-indonesian-military-sweeping-operations-against-west-papuan-civilians/This is disgusting.
. . .
NOW MUSLIMS LOOK UPON YOU!!! YOU WHOLE ACTIVITIES IN HERE ONLY PUT SLANDER AGAINST YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS AND MAKE THEIR POSISTION TO BECAME WEAKENED IN THE PUBLIC
Yes, the Muslim in Indonesia killed, raped and burned people alive, and I am committing slander. . .
They are Muslim and this is your version of Islam . . very funny rotflhttp//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kslNnhVCksw#t=360
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQ6kDkirBg
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy15BcK7lFI -
Salaam Man of Faith
Quran is God's words/wahy to Muhammad not the Bible who contains God's words + Jesus or other Phrophets's hadithPeace,
There are a testament to God's words in the Bible too although slightly biased and that is the decree to Moses, i.e. the Commandments and the Torah. But you are right that "Qur'an" is the only survived "original" compilation of God's words, and the only full compilation, while what was revealed to Moses could be filled on stone tablets and is merely a very common list of commands and some attachments such as the famous "eye of an eye, tooth for a tooth" and that you shall not eat the flesh of swine and similar commands that were reminded of in the Recitation to Muhammad to a people that had not received a reminder before, i.e. the Arab tribes.
To be quite blunt the recitation of Muhammad is also a hadith, that is God's hadith, and which hadith do you prefer? God's hadith or the hadith of infidels that want to create the same scenario that happened to the Jews and later on the followers of Jesus, i.e. lawmaking without limits or divine authorization, and did you know that the Jews have an approximated 603 "religious" rules?
God's "Law" is very simple while men, especially malicious men, are complicating things. God has not intended to make the Faith difficult for us humans but has a very simple structure with few direct rules other than the obvious decree recited by Muhammad slightly more than a thousand years ago.
The decree recited by Muhammad was the most detailed narrative of God of those previously revealed as per God's own words in the recited compilation. The Mosaic decree were the only previously revealed direct words of God on some material (tablets) and the Torah is what Moses taught from the decree (the word torah in fact means something similar to teaching), and after Moses a succession of missionaries were to uphold the decree with varying degree of success. Some were righteous while most were not and the most successful ones were mentioned in the recitation. The revelation to Jesus was written by his followers and were a testament to their own observation, and is much like hearsay. Many people uphold the updated decree revealed to Jesus but they do not do so without mistakenly associating him with God. Sad to say but Muslims worldwide commit the same kind of error even if they do not call Muhammad the son of God but it is hardly far away from the same degree of idolatry.
Without exaggerating I would say that God sent missionaries after Muhammad presence here on Earth but most were killed or ignored, and some succumbed to their own ego (see Rashad Khalifa). "Send" is perhaps a slightly inappropriate word since it is those that make a distinction among men that are chosen to excel on their roles and one builds his own success through perseverance and patience. But people are prone to treat their missionaries that they like as supermen with an exaggerated amount of power and might. Muhammad was just a man like you and me but what perhaps differentiated him from us is that he saw the Truth and he established a communication with his Lord, and your Lord, and my Lord and build a bond and received inspiration and guidance from the Lord due to his increased Nearness to God.
God bless you
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Salaam my brother muslims
I WARN YOU TO SHUT UP IF YOU LACK OF COMPEREHENSIVE AND UNDERSTANDING SKILL
YOUR ARGUMENTS IS NONE BUT PROVOCATIONS
MEANWHILE WHERE IS THE RELATION OF CHINESE and WEST PAPUAN KILLING WITH ME AND ISLAM
DONT BE CHILDISH PAL!!!!!
http//www.mobilbaru.info/2014/04/pemerkosaan-wanita-etnis-tionghoa-di.html
I told you this issue, THIS IS JUST A CONSPIRATIONS CREATED BY SOME CHINESE BASTARDS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND
YOU NEVER MET THIS BASTARDS IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE MOST OF THEM HIDING IN SINGAPORE, TAIWAN and PEOPLE REPUBLIC CHINA
Remember I write "some" means not all Chinese.There are many good chinese who understand peace and not do bad scheme
BTW why you care so much with the chinese while the main victims is not the chinese, but Suharto oppositions, collegers and looter in Jogja plaza.
They're missing, kidnapped, jailed and get killed during operation code named "Mawar".Most of the killers are organized people by armyRead http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penculikan_aktivis_1997/1998
http//id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedi_SemanggiMost of victims are still moslems ya know, some of them even muslims activist...
Do you know during Suharto regime, the mosques were being watched by government spies and if an imam do khotbah by critize government the imam will face hard punishmentAlso during the regime, the muslims was forbidden to used the word Allah
Plus take a look that website, who is the person who wrote that?? LAY CAO LAY, a chinese provokator!!!
I will quoted a stupid claim from that website
Tim relawan untuk kemanusian Divisi Perempuan sesungguhnya adalah tim relawan untuk kemanusiaan yang lebih besar dan dipimpin Romo Sandyawan
"Tim sudah melakukan identifikasi korban-korban kerusuhan yang jumlahnya mencapai 1333 orang, hampir sebagian besar adalah orang Tionghoa. Sekarang, kami sungguh-sungguh sangat marah karena perempuan dijadikan target atau obyek untuk mengintimidasi masyarakat lewat kekerasan seksual. Ini adalah state violence." tegas Romo Sandyawan
Red part Most of victim are chinese
But it's very contradict with the Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta's data, the legal investigator team purposed to investigate the 1998 incident,
This is their data http//semanggipeduli.com/tgpf/bab4.html
From that data, we know if the rape victims are only 34 people, and some of them are not chinese
So the website you cited are absolutely LIAR!!!(1) data Tim Relewan 1190 orang akibat ter/dibakar
This is the main victims 1190 people get burned and most of them are looters inside Jogja plaza
If you still disagree, watch this http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6XsTwf9c8I
In that videos, there are two Indonesian chinese give the testimony and straightly tackle your whole arguments- Ester Indahyani Yusuf , a member of Tim Gabungan Pencari Fakta and the writer of a book about the incident
- Christianto Wibisono, his home was destroyed during the riot and he give testimony for what actually happen in minute 10450
So brother....... I think you start to slander your fellow muslims and start to support the devilish provocators.
How can someone like you capable to get the God's salvation??Oh yes, I will give you the example of Chinese provocators https//www.facebook.com/xiaoyucan?fref=nf
http//yinnihuarendexueleishi.blogspot.com/
http//yinnihuarendeshehuigeming.blogspot.com/Now what I want discuss is about Ahmadiya, because if I talking with you about chinese you will not connect and always misslead
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Please read the forum rules. This is a reminder/warning.
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Yes, the Muslim in Indonesia killed, raped and burned people alive,
The killing, raping, and other kind of crimes also happened in many other countries in the world, not just in Indonesia.
And I observe that people who claim as Muslims are not always obey Allah.
And you also can look into yourself. Your attitudes (insulting and enjoy mocking at others) seem far from the righteous attitudes that I know from the Qur'an.
Peace.
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Peace,
And you also can look into yourself. Your attitudes (insulting and enjoy mocking at others) seem far from the righteous attitudes that I know from the Qur'an.
I have felt this before too.
God bless you
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Oh yes muslims who kill muslims like in the Aceh case, the muslim killers cannot be called as muslim
In the past I lived in Indonesia, but it doesn't means I support the government. Government and citizen/civvilian are two different entities
Allah is the most I loyal to and all good muslims whatever their sects, race, countries as long as they're not corrupted Quran and hadith, they're my brother ans sisters.Embrance Ukhuwah Islamiyah (Islamic brotherhood)
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I have felt this before too.
You should because you also belong to those who like to mumbling with personal fallacy
and with no methodology for identification of truth
and in fact many are here. . .and when people start questioning your contention and asking for prove . .
when people start "testing the truth of your contention", with premises from the Quran
you becoming into this. . .http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341096#msg341096
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341094#msg341094
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg342173#msg342173revealing your true Muslim character . . .
Truth because I said it is truth . . don't ever ever ever question what I said!
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Oh yes muslims who kill muslims like in the Aceh case, the muslim killers cannot be called as muslim
Another self contradicting statement ? or. . you mean to say "muslims who kill muslims (from the same sect) like in the Aceh case"
July 2010
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxkAhmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
I believe they make the syahada, pray to the same Allah, fasting, pay zakat . . go to hajj and teach righteousness etc. (refer here). They are muslim as the majority called themselves a Muslim.
Distinct Ahmadi beliefs
Although the central values of Islam (prayer, charity, fasting, etc.) and the six articles of belief of Ahmadis are identical to those of mainstream Sunni Muslims and central to Ahmadi belief, distinct Ahmadiyya beliefs include the following
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That the prophecies concerning the second coming of Jesus were metaphorical in nature and not literal because Jesus is in their belief is dead, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad fulfilled in his person these prophecies and the second advent of Jesus, that he was the promised Mahdi and Messiah.
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The continuation of divine revelation. Although the Qur'an is the final message of God for mankind, He continues to communicate with his chosen individuals in the same way he is believed to have done in the past. All of God's attributes are eternal.
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That no verse of the Qur'an abrogates or cancels another verse. All Qur'anic verses have equal validity, in keeping with their emphasis on the "unsurpassable beauty and unquestionable validity of the Qur'n". The harmonization of apparently incompatible rulings is resolved through their juridical deflation in Ahmad fiqh, so that a ruling (considered to have applicability only to the specific situation for which it was revealed), is effective not because it was revealed last, but because it is most suited to the situation at hand.
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That Jesus, contrary to mainstream Islamic belief, was crucified and survived the four hours on the cross. He was later revived from a swoon in the tomb. Ahmadis believe that Jesus died in Kashmir of old age whilst seeking the Lost Tribes of Israel. Jesus' remains are believed to be entombed in Kashmir under the name Yuz Asaf. Ahmadis believe that Jesus foretold the coming of Muhammad after him, which Christians have misinterpreted.
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That the "Messiah" and the "Imam Mahdi" are the same person, and that it is through his teachings and influence and through his prayers and those of his followers that Islam will defeat the Anti-Christ or Dajjal in a period similar to the period of time it took for nascent Christianity to rise (see also Ahmadiyya relationship with Christianity) and that the Dajjal's power will slowly melt away like the melting of snow, heralding the final victory of Islam and the age of peace.
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That the history of religion is cyclic and is renewed every seven millennia. The present cycle from the time of the Biblical Adam is split into seven epochs or ages, parallel to the seven days of the week, with periods for light and darkness. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appeared as the promised Messiah at the sixth epoch heralding the seventh and final age of mankind, as a day in the estimation of God is like a thousand years of man's reckoning. According to Ghulam Ahmad, just as the sixth day of the week is reserved for Jumu'ah (congregational prayers), likewise his age is destined for a global assembling of mankind in which the world is to unite under one universal religion Islam.
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The two Ahmadiyya groups have varying beliefs regarding the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believes that Muhammad brought prophethood to perfection and was the last law-bearing prophet and the apex of humankind's spiritual evolution. New prophets can come, but they must be completely subordinate to Muhammad and cannot exceed him in excellence nor alter his teaching or bring any new law or religion. They are also thought of as reflections of Muhammad rather than independently made into Prophets, like the Prophets of antiquity. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement believes that Muhammad is the last of the prophets and no prophet, new or old, can come after him, also rejecting any notion of Jesus returning to earth as a Prophet
Wikipedia, Ahmadiyya
. . .
I'm closing the issue of Ahmaddiya since you have no reason to justified your contention, from page 50 to page 58. .
Other than distortion of the rules form the Quran, blank denials, fallacy and circular reasoning. .and . . I think there are full of people who just like to mumble without facts and personal fallacy
and without using clear authority and reasoning . . .Truth for them, because I said it is truth . .
and without proving that their contention has no inconsistency with any rules from the QuranPremise. . .
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an?
If it had been from other than Allah <- ie. including the rules, hadith etc
they would have found within it much contradiction
482Clear authority; all true premises
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606010.msg342131#msg342131. . . The conclusion
Facts
at page 50. . .
Mohammed (saw) is also sectarian, if not he won't attacking pagan or jewish tribes to make them embrance Islam.
And also the Caliphate will not destroy Byzantine just because they're Christian.Islam is identity and must be united in single ummah whatever the sects.
. . .
The issue Whether Muhammad is a sectarian and attack people to make them embrace Islam ?
at page 50. . .
Another contradiction . . .
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26See? Another wishful thinking . . . your contention are full of inconsistencies.
and did you mean this kind of unity and Islam ?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj_GTRcKq_I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ReNSqqVeU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0S4qUQWzU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4. . .
Contention (1) The hadith said those people should be killed.
David Saidi
According to hadith, the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it, since they did high treason and corrupted religion of Allah.
Also in hadith, Ahmadiyah will labelled as "raddad".Same as murtad, they will get death sentence if they're not repent.Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.
My counterargument
What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?and . .
It is not the true methodology for Islamic Jurisprudence (usul al fiqh) . . and there is not a single ayat to support the hadith. Contradictorily, there are bundle of authority that prohibit such action.
your contention are contradicting the Quran.
the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
refer here for authority
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349380#msg349380
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349596#msg349596
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349395#msg349395
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349438#msg349438. . .
Contention (2) The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer of verse 16106, therefore can kill the disbelievers etc.
David Saidi
The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer
16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;
My counterargument
Verse 16106 is not the authority since "Allah said "wrath from Allah" . . and it follows the punishment is from Allah. It is a clear distortion of Allah's words.
Nope. . are you trying to distort Allah's words ?
The following verse 16106 mentions nothing at all about killing the disbelievers !
and it also follows that the hadith is irrelevant to the ayat.http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349616#msg349616. . .
Contention (3) The Quran is silent on those issue, therefore can kill the disbelievers.
David Saidi
the Sunnah may consist of rulings on which the Qur'an is silent, in which case the ruling in
question originates in the Sunnah itself. This variety of Sunnah, referred to as al-Sunnah al-muassisah,
or 'founding Sunnah', neither confirms nor opposes the Qur'an, and its contents cannot be traced back to
the Holy Book.There are many hadith teaching which doesn't existed or explicitly written in the Quran, such like - Grave punishment
- Laws regarding picture
- Circumcision and etc
My counterargument
The Quran is not silent on those issues, it is a clear authority.
The Quran is not silent on this issue,
and your issue opposing clear facts and principles from the Quran. . . a very clear contradiction!
look at the following ayat (in fact, many more!)There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26. . .
Contention (4) Verse 533-4 says Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human)
David Saidi
Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)
533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,My counterargument
Verse 533-4 does not say whatever Muhammad saying is a wahy, it is a clear distortion of Allah's words.
Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed
Taught to him by one intense in strength <- Gabriel
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat, the wahy,
The heart did not lie what it saw ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . .
refer here for authority
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349643#msg349643
. . . no answer, from page 50 to page 58
You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .
Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.
What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?and it will just remain the same. . and I believe the killing of the Ahmadiyya, is not Islam.
But whoever kills a believer intentionally
his recompense is Hell
wherein he will abide eternally
and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment
493Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land
it is as if he had slain mankind entirely
And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely
And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs
Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors
532 -
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Salaam Noon Waalqalami
to make clear
According to you there is no word "you" in there, but please pay notice with ta' in there )
I believe the Quran cannot be translated to literally or per-wordsSalaam David Saidi,
OK again you missed the point and verse ? what was to be made clear to humankind and not conceal it?
3187 and when took the god agreement the ones given they of the book/writ that thou make clear it to the humankind and not thou conceal it so threw they it behind backs theirs and purchased with it price of little of so wretched what purchasing
1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder that thou make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting
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DONT BE CHILDISH PAL!!!!!
I told you this issue, THIS IS JUST A CONSPIRATIONS CREATED BY SOME CHINESE BASTARDS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND
"...WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND..."
The less than 1% minority want to take over the Indonesia country, just what they did in Singapore and Thailand.
The contention is very sound and logic.
. . .
Therefore . . .
prove that life is not about Sunnatullah
prove that justice is not about balancerefer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349248#msg349248. .
The point of discussion from the Papuan issue, Timor Leste, Acheh, Christian and Chinese minorities etc is. . .
Religious tolerance and freedom under threat in Indonesia. .
Their way of living has nothing to do with Islam, but it is fanaticism, religionism, racism, nationalism and sectarianism etc.http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvYp8SRpPNI
No balance and no justice . . . and there is no Ying and Yang.
goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil . . .
http//i61.tinypic.com/63r9es.gif
Therefore . . there is no Islamic way of living in Indonesia.
It is merely Religionism and Sectarianism.
I'm bigot?? Yes, I will became bigot to someone who tried to annilihate my faith
my faith = sectarianism
(killed and burned alive all minorities. . . they are threatening our security with their ancient weapons, and so on. . . )whereas, and contradictorily. . .
refer here Reply #443
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg348769#msg348769For you is your deen <- based on "religion" - Sectarianism - Bigot - concept of God alone, so as Iblees, Allah Alone
and for me is my deen <- based on "ad-deen" - Just vs. Unjust - an upright man - living justly balanced - Sunnatullah
(109)(note can you say the same to other religion? nope.. because there is no difference. . . both are religions)
http//s11.postimg.org/hq4ht9ic3/humanunity.png
Therefore and in my opinion , what you fight for is not Islam.
in the fact muslims actually must united into single ummah, helping each other and not bounded by nationality or races.
What makes you think I will unite with the oppressor and who support the killing of 500,000 innocent people and treat them like animals ?
and do not be of those who associate others with Allah
of those who have divided their religion and become sects
every faction rejoicing in what it has
3031-32You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day
having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger
even if they were
their fathers
or their sons
or their brothers
or their kindred
Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him
And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally
Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah .
Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful.
58.22While. . .
July 2010
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxkAhmadiya deserved it
Religion is an insult to human dignity
With or without religion
you would have good people doing good things and
evil people doing evil things
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion
Steven Weinbergend.