What is Islam?

David_Saidi

Peace be upon you

First sorry to accuse you for being an atheist.

First your presentation is magnificient, you tried to define God's teaching by intellectual remarks.
But as Muhammad Itani said, your intepretation of the Quran still diverted and often highly traditional Ahadith influence.
Plus you gave the wrong ways for using the Arabic words.

Example

Standing South.. Fire.. Energy / Motivation / Direction . . . (hablum minallah)
Ruku West.. Air.. Communication / Relationship . . . (hablum minannas)
Sitting East... Water... Knowledge / Expertise . . . (hablum minannas)
Prostration North.. Earth... Humble / Persistence . . . (hablum minallah)

I believe what you mean standing, ruku, sitting and prostation is the part of salat.

Hablum minnanas = relations between humans
Hablum mimallah = relations between humans and their Deity.

I believe salat is hablum minallah not hablum minannas.

Plus there are some interestings

There is no evidence in the Quran
that Iblees prostrate to any other than Allah

Iblees prostrate to "Allah Alone"

Iblees is "Allah Alone"
"He refused and he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers" (234)
Because Iblees is trying to outsmart Allah's command.

Iblees was ordered to sujud to Adam but he refused and made a pledge if he will mislead the humans.

Okay, and yes, I don't believe in God/god... because I believe the Quran.

I don't understand what you mean, please explain

muslims

Peace be upon you

First sorry to accuse you for being an atheist.

First your presentation is magnificient, you tried to define God's teaching by intellectual remarks.
But as Muhammad Itani said, your intepretation of the Quran still diverted and often highly traditional Ahadith influence.

No need to say sorry
I'm an atheist.. and a Sunni, and also a Shia.
Therefore, I follow the hadith, and all religious books from other religions.

no "religion" has a monopoly on truth and believe it or not, we are all those things, at one time or another.

and because, it is a "religion"

. . .

Plus you gave the wrong ways for using the Arabic words.

Example

I believe what you mean standing, ruku, sitting and prostation is the part of salat.

Hablum minnanas = relations between humans
Hablum mimallah = relations between humans and their Deity.

I believe salat is hablum minallah not hablum minannas.

No, that's not what I mean....

The following is just a philosophical statement from wudhu and salat.

. . .

Plus there are some interestings

Iblees was ordered to sujud to Adam but he refused and made a pledge if he will mislead the humans.

Therefore, Iblees prostrate to "Allah Alone"

. . .

I don't understand what you mean, please explain

Allah is not God/god

Say, "He is Allah , One
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born
Nor is there to Him any equivalent
1121-4

muslims

Main
Previous Assignment

TO-DO LIST Al-Qalam

Theme Do not follow the liars, who distorting Allah's rules and judge not according the Quran.

COMMAND

http//track2run.in/r.gif Be patient on the straight path. (684
http//track2run.in/r.gif Quran is a reminder for the worlds. (6852)

PROHIBITION

http//track2run.in/r.gif Do not obey the deniers (lie, distort, invent or disobey Allah's commands/prohibitions etc). (688 )
http//track2run.in/r.gif ie. Primarily those who are lowly swearer, a slanderer, a backbiter, forbidder of charity, a transgressor, a sinner, the unappreciative, and greedy. (6810-13)

LIKE

http//track2run.in/r.gif Strive for a high moral character. (684)

DISLIKE

http//track2run.in/r.gif Do not strayed off from Allah's path. (687)
http//track2run.in/r.gif Allah's revelations are not "Fictional tales of old!" (6815)
http//track2run.in/r.gif Do not lie or distorting Allah's rules and turn the submitter into criminals. (6835-41)

David_Saidi

Therefore, I follow the hadith, and all religious books from other religions.

456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative (hadith) after God and His revelations do
they believe?

7750 So in what narrative (hadith), after it, will they believe?

Hadith = narrations, stories, sayings . Quran is God's hadith and no one else even the Bible you see.

Therefore, Iblees prostrate to "Allah Alone"

No verses said this.

Allah is not God/god

Allah is God in english while god is ilah, rabb in Arabic.

Allah = Al + Ilah, the Deity of milat Abraham (Abraham monotheism).
The proof is Christian and Judaic Arab also used the word "Allah".

http//www.copticchurch.net/cgibin/bible/index.php?r=Psalm%20502,23&version=SVD&showVN=1

That is Psalm in Arabic and notice the word "Allah" in there.

muslims

456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative (hadith) after God and His revelations do
they believe?

7750 So in what narrative (hadith), after it, will they believe?

Hadith = narrations, stories, sayings . Quran is God's hadith and no one else even the Bible you see.

What is the context of the whole Quran?

Do you follow the man-made law?

Does it sound reasonable to disobey the man-made law?

No verses said this.

to Him have submitted those within the heavens and earth (3.83)

Where is Iblees?

Therefore, it is very clear and it includes, Iblees...

Allah is God in english while god is ilah in Arabic.

Allah = Al + Ilah, the Deity of milat Abraham (Abraham monotheism).
The proof is Christian and Judaic Arab also used the word "Allah".

http//www.copticchurch.net/cgibin/bible/index.php?r=Psalm%20502,23&version=SVD&showVN=1

That is Psalm in Arabic and notice the word "Allah" in there.

This is also very clear..

Say, "He is Allah , One
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born
Nor is there to Him any equivalent
1121-4

Therefore, how many God/god(s) that you know?
Obviously it is a "duality concept"..
ie. "equivalent" to the same category of "God/god(s)"

But it is okay because Allah introduce Himself as God to those who are only understand the concept of Godliness
However, chapter 112 is the "definition provision" for the true meaning of Allah.
You can choose whatever is best for you.

David_Saidi

What is the context of the whole Quran?

Do you follow man-made law?

That verses are literally said, explicitly and clearly.
I don't follow man-made law, I follow the Quran, the God's words and always ask Him if I find difficulties.

to Him have submitted those within the heavens and earth (3.83)

Wrong translation.
The word doesn't exist in Arabic text.
I believe you still follow traditional Sunni-Shia theology.

Therefore, how may God/god that you know?
Obviously it is a "duality concept"..
ie. equivalent to the concept of Godliness .. "equivalent" to the same category of "God/god"

But it is okay because Allah introduce Himself as God to those who are only understand the concept of Godliness
However, chapter 112 is the "definition provision" for the true meaning of Allah.
You can choose whatever is best for you.

Duality concept is Christian man-made theology/tafseer, the Scripture doesn't spoke about it.

Judaism,Christian, Islam has same origins, but different teologically.
The Deity of Abrahman monotheiist is Allah (Arabic), lh (Aramaic), Elohim (Hebrew), God (English).
Even both of this three religion claims the worshipp the same GOD, but their definition of GOD (theos) differs each other

muslims

That verses are literally said, explicitly and clearly.
I don't follow man-made law, I follow the Quran, the God's words and always ask Him if I find difficulties.

In that case, you are the first person I know that reject the statutory laws..
and still survive to get your citizenship, proper education, medical benefits, works, electricity, internet etc.

no further comment

And We shall (also) facilitate you (to put into practice this) easy (law). (87.8 )

Wrong translation.
The word doesn't exist in Arabic text.
I believe you still follow traditional Sunni-Shia theology.

The issue is "those within the heavens and earth", and your issues are

Whether "those within the heavens and earth" is referring to ""?
Whether Iblees prostrate to Allah?

again, no further comment.

By the way, I'm referring you direct ayat from the Quran, and how does it relate to the "Sunni-Shia theology"?

Duality concept is Christian man-made theology/tafseer, the Scripture doesn't spoke about it.

Judaism,Christian, Islam has same origins, but different teologically.
The Deity of Abrahman monotheiist is Allah (Arabic), lh (Aramaic), Elohim (Hebrew), God (English).
Even both of this three religion claims the worshipp the same GOD, but their definition of GOD (theos) differs each other

You can choose whatever is best for you.

For me... Allah is "One" and "Nor is there to Him any equivalent" is the Muhkamat
and what Allah is really about is the Mutasyaabihat (3.7)
Therefore and frankly, I don't really care what Allah is all about. Sorry.

David_Saidi

In that case, you are the first person I know that reject the statutory laws..
and still survive to get proper education, works, electricity, internet etc.

Between two points, there are no relations at all.

By the way, I'm referring you direct ayat from the Quran, and how does it relate to the "Sunni-Shia theology".

You used Sunni's translation and the translation is highly Ahadith influences.
Means you follow Sunni but don't know if you actuallfy following it.

For me... Allah is One is the Muhkamat, and what Allah is really about is the Mutasyaabihat (3.7)

Allah is clearly defined in the Quran.
From the Quran/wahy itself Allah introduce Himself

muslims

Between two points, there are no relations at all.

Hadith is a "man-made law", whether it is from Muhammad or not.

You used Sunni's translation and the translation is highly Ahadith influences.
Means you follow Sunni but don't know if you actuallfy following it.

Why don't you stick to the fact rather than relying on fallacy and ad hominem to make your point
It is irrelevant, and a waste of time and energy...
In fact, it is not an argument at all

Now... the issue you raise have no merits..
Everything prostate to Allah, including Iblees...
Because Allah is the Creator
and Iblees is quite somebody, because he was with the angels when Allah commanded him to prostrate to Adam..

Bring me a verse from the Quran that says Iblees do not prostrate to Allah
This is your burden of proof

Allah is clearly defined in the Quran.
From the Quran/wahy itself Allah introduce Himself

Allah is clearly defined in the Quran as "One", this is the Muhkamat
and Allay says "Nor is there to Him any equivalent", this is also the Muhkamat

Therefore, the issue you raise have no merits because your argument is.. Allah is God, in Islam
However ..
Christians says, Jesus is God!
Jews says, YHVH is God!
Hinduist says, Lord Shiva is God!
Chinese says.. God!
Buddhist says.. God!
and so on...

There are many God(s)

Therefore, the concept of "God(s)" is equivalent, the One True Creator in all those religions
All those God(s) belong to the same category
They are "equivalent"
But Allah says "Nor is there to Him any equivalent"

David_Saidi

Hadith is a "man-made law", whether it is from Muhammad or not.

Yes, of course

Why don't you stick to the fact rather than relying on fallacy and ad hominem to make your point
It is irrelevant, and a waste of time and energy...
In fact, it is not an argument at all

Yes, and yourself did some "burden of proof".
You keep used Sunni theology to discuss with me, while myself don't recognized it.

Aristoles Fallacy the most hypocryte methodolgy used to divert the issues (to make the users keep for being stubborn).

Ad hominem right ?? In verse 218, 217, Did God Himself also ad hominem

Allah is clearly defined in the Quran as "One", this is the Muhkamat
and Allay says "Nor is there to Him any equivalent", this is also the Muhkamat

Therefore, the issue you raise have no merits because your argument is Allah is God, in Islam
However ..
Christians says, Jesus is God!
Jews says, YHVH is God!
Hinduist says, Lord Shiva is God!
Chinese says.. God!
Buddhist says.. God!
and so on...

There are many God(s)

Therefore, the concept of "God(s)" is equivalent, the One True Creator in all those religions
All those God(s) belong to the same category
They are "equivalent"
But Allah says "Nor is there to Him any equivalent"

Please learn diffences between God and god in english
Allah is singular and the plural form is Alihah, so this is not a proper noun

muslims

Yes, of course

I have proven both the hadith and the statutory laws are "man-made law".

Therefore, the ideology to reject the hadith is totally unrealistic and exhibiting a lack of common sense.

| You | | 7750 So in what narrative (hadith), after it, will they believe?
Hadith = narrations, stories, sayings . Quran is God's hadith and no one else even the Bible you see.

| Me | | What is the context of the whole Quran?
Do you follow the man-made law?

| You | | I don't follow man-made law

| Me | | In that case, you are the first person I know that reject the statutory laws..
and still survive to get your citizenship, proper education, medical benefits, works, electricity, internet etc.

| You | | Between two points, there are no relations at all.

| Me | | Hadith is a "man-made law", whether it is from Muhammad or not.

| You | | Yes, of course

. . .

Yes, and yourself did some "burden of proof".
You keep used Sunni theology to discuss with me, while myself don't recognized it.

So it is a "Sunni/Shia Theology" simply because it has "" in its translation?
This is your issue?
Find out what is the meaning of bracket () in that translation...

and please be realistic, and less of a sectarian.

| Me | | There is no evidence in the Quran
that Iblees prostrate to any other than Allah
Iblees prostrate to "Allah Alone"
Iblees is "Allah Alone"
"He refused and he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers" (234)
Because Iblees is trying to outsmart Allah's command.

| You | | Iblees was ordered to sujud to Adam but he refused and made a pledge if he will mislead the humans.

| Me | | Therefore, Iblees prostrate to "Allah Alone"

| You | | No verses said this.

| Me | | to Him have submitted those within the heavens and earth (3.83)
Where is Iblees?
Therefore, it is very clear and it includes, Iblees...

| You | | Wrong translation.
The word doesn't exist in Arabic text.
I believe you still follow traditional Sunni-Shia theology.

| Me | | The issue is "those within the heavens and earth", and your issues are

Whether "those within the heavens and earth" is referring to ""?
Whether Iblees prostrate to Allah?
again, no further comment.
By the way, I'm referring you direct ayat from the Quran, and how does it relate to the "Sunni-Shia theology"?

| You | | You used Sunni's translation and the translation is highly Ahadith influences.
Means you follow Sunni but don't know if you actuallfy following it.

| Me | | Now... the issue you raise have no merits..
Everything prostate to Allah, including Iblees...
Because Allah is the Creator
and Iblees is quite somebody, because he was with the angels when Allah commanded him to prostrate to Adam..
Bring me a verse from the Quran that says Iblees do not prostrate to Allah
This is your burden of proof

| You | | Yes, and yourself did some "burden of proof".
You keep used Sunni theology to discuss with me, while myself don't recognized it.

. . .

Aristoles Fallacy the most hypocryte methodolgy used to divert the issues (to make the users keep for being stubborn).

Ad hominem right ?? In verse 218, 217, Did God Himself also ad hominem

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person&quot, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

It usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments.

Why don't you stick to the fact rather than relying on fallacy and ad hominem to make your point
It is irrelevant, and a waste of time and energy...
In fact, it is not an argument at all

. . .

Please learn diffences between God and god in english
Allah is singular and the plural form is Alihah, so this is not a proper noun

The is issue about "Nor is there to Him any equivalent"

Not about the meaning of "God" or "god"
(I hope Muhammad has no trouble to differentiate the pronunciation of "God" and "god" from Gabriel )

There are many God(s)

Therefore, the concept of "God(s)" is equivalent, the One True Creator in all those religions
All those God(s) belong to the same category
They are "equivalent"
But Allah says "Nor is there to Him any equivalent"

David_Saidi

I have proven both the hadith and the statutory laws are "man-made law".

Therefore, the ideology to reject the hadith is totally unrealistic and exhibiting a lack of common sense.

The ideology is based on the QUran.
Meanwhile the hadith is full of contradictions which very untrustworthy

http//asimiqbal2nd.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/contradictions.pdf
http//wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Hadith
http//www.irfi.org/general/history_of_hadiths.htm

or u can find many articles in this forum

Hadith contradict the Quran in many aspects both theology and linguistic.
It's methods for collecting it is same nonsense as like this http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/chinese_whispers_(P1155).html

muslims

Hadith contradict the Quran in many aspects both theology and linguistic.

Do you understand the issue?

I'm not denying that many hadith are contradicting the Quran

What I'm saying Muhammad is a man, and therefore the hadith is a "man made law"
Whether it is from Muhammad or not, is irrelevant. . . and there are good and bad hadith

Similarly and as equal to any other "man made law"
There are so many laws which are full of nonsense and contradicting the Quran
but you still obey the laws and accept it as part of your life (e.g. fractional banking system, or 5.51)
simply because it is impossible to reject all these laws, unless you decide to live by yourself in the jungle (hopefully not)

Therefore the ideology to reject the hadith and simply because it is a hadith is a half baked ideology
It is totally unrealistic and exhibiting a lack of common sense

Now.. .how do you explain this situation?

David_Saidi

Whether it is from Muhammad or not, is irrelevant. . . and there are good and bad hadith

Yes there are some good hadith, good Torah, good fabrications...
But if you follow it, the analogy is You already knew if that cake poisonous, but you still dared to eat it.

There are so many laws which are full of nonsense and contradicting the Quran
but you still obey the laws and accept it as part of your life (e.g. fractional banking system, or 5.51)

Please learn again the concept of "iman" in the Quran.
Definition of iman/believe in the Quran is different for "obey", "believe" in other context.

I obey the Quran but when I participate in this forum, of course I must obey the forum rules.

Therefore the ideology to reject the hadith and simply because it is a hadith is totally unrealistic and exhibiting a lack of common sense

Please give me some proofs

muslims

I obey the Quran but when I participate in this forum, of course I must obey the forum rules.

You are still unable to give the justification for your ideology, and instead.. asking irrelevant question
Your ideology is inconsistent, and it is unreliable. . .

Whether it is from Muhammad or not, is irrelevant. . . and there are good and bad hadith

. . .

There are so many laws which are full of nonsense and contradicting the Quran
but you still obey the laws and accept it as part of your life (e.g. fractional banking system, or 5.51)
simply because it is impossible to reject all these laws, unless you decide to live by yourself in the jungle (hopefully not)

Therefore the ideology to reject the hadith and simply because it is a hadith is a half baked ideology
It is totally unrealistic and exhibiting a lack of common sense

Now.. .how do you explain this situation?

I'm not asking again.

David_Saidi

There are so many laws which are full of nonsense and contradicting the Quran
but you still obey the laws and accept it as part of your life (e.g. fractional banking system, or 5.51)

I think I already answered this.
Another Example I obey the Quran, but when I work in a firm which has many non-muslim employees in here, so I must believe the non-Quranic rules that firm provided to us.

Please see the context, Quran is not book of economy, mathematic nor constitutions , it's the guide to how to became good believer and how to reach HIS salvation.Quran is to those who believe on it

Ok if I'm a chairman in a firm and some of my employees are non-muslim and it's a wrong way to implement Quranic rules in my firm (Read surah Al Kafeerun).

Do you understand??

muslims

I think I already answered this.
Another Example I obey the Quran, but when I work in a firm which has many non-muslim employees in here, so I must believe the non-Quranic rules that firm provided to us.

My point is if you can accept bad "man-made law" from the firm's policy and statutory law etc
(e.g. fractional reserve banking. . . creation of money and a usury system to exploit the world for bankruptcy - see. 2.279)

Then why you cannot accept "bad/good hadith", which is also a "man-made law"

Your ideology is inconsistent since both the hadith and statutory law are "man-made law". . .

Is it simply because it is a hadith, and the other is statutory law?

What is your justification for this double standard?

David_Saidi

My point is if you can accept bad "man-made law" from the firm's policy and statutory law etc
(e.g. fractional reserve banking. . . creation of money and a usury system to exploit the world for bankruptcy - see. 2.279)

Then why you cannot accept "bad/good hadith", which is also a "man-made law"

Your ideology is inconsistent since both the hadith and statutory law are "man-made law". . .

Is it simply because it is a hadith, and the other is statutory law?

What is your justification for this double standard?

No double standart for me.It's you mister, don't understand what I say.

I never said if I follow that bank system.

Then why you cannot accept "bad/good hadith", which is also a "man-made law"

Because it's pointless and has no effect for me whatever I follow hadith or not.Please see the context
Why I believe the rules in the company I work for?? because I'm in the situation that I must follow that unless I will get fired.

When I spoke about hadith, mean I speak in the context of theology.

muslims

Because it's pointless and has no effect for me whatever I follow hadith or not.Please see the context
Why I believe the rules in the company I work for?? because I'm in the situation that I must follow that unless I will get fired.

Simply because it is "pointless"... and simply because you don't want to get "fired"

i.e. it is simply personal reasons . . .

Your ideology is inconsistent since both the hadith and statutory law are "man-made law". . .

. . .

What is your justification for this double standard?

If you feel like to follow the rules, you follow
If you don't feel like to follow the rules, you don't follow. . .
So as others, simple . . . personal ideology and dogmatic belief
since there is no principle which and when to follow the rules, and which/when not to follow the rules

and

That's what I said..

Double standard principle
Half baked ideology
No justification

. . .

I never said if I follow that bank system.

I never said that too
I guess you don't understand the system for money creation, nevermind . . .

(e.g. fractional reserve banking. . . creation of money and a usury system to exploit the world for bankruptcy - see. 2.279)

David_Saidi

What I discuss is about Quran and it's theology, intepretations. not anything else!!
So this discussion is between muslim and muslim not muslim and non muslim.

In theological context, I discard the hadith not because personal reasons, but because it's contradict the Quran and 7750 also said to discard it.
So in term of theology/faith all statinory laws must be expelled and follow the Quran only.

When I told you about why I believe in company rules, because I'm not talking in the context of theology, but talking in the context of work ethic.
Why?? It's to respond your post which mixing different contexts into single issue.

Like this one

In that case, you are the first person I know that reject the statutory laws..
and still survive to get your citizenship, proper education, medical benefits, works, electricity, internet etc.

Look!! This is very misslead the issue.
I reject statutory laws teologically, but it doesn't mean I reject it in other situations.

and my following example

I obey the Quran Only but when I participate in this forum, of course I must obey the forum rules.

I make distinct this sentence into blue and red.
In the blue sentence I'm talking in the context of theology, and in the red one I talking in the contex of my position as member of this forum.

Do you understand??