Salat According to the Quran and a Critical Remark
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Nazzam,
Edit2 I regret that I wasted my time and mood on the likes of you. Best not to further discuss anything with you that I disturb my peace. Hope you find the path at some point.
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Salaam,
This forum does not practice censorship.
Many people have admitted and claimed that their posts are also missing.
Regards,
Yuliana -
All your points are invalid, and it is clear you too are not in the position to discuss the substance of what I have written. Your reactions are so bizarre, it is unbelievable. I mean the courage.. you must believe in yourself very much.
All my points raised are INVALID according to you is because YOU DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS WITH YOU. (IF YOU CALL YOURSELF AN EXPERT, THEN PLEASE REVISE YOUR THINKING)
SWIMMING IN A POND OR A LAKE DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN EXPERT SWIMMER UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW TO SWIM IN A SEA OF HIGH TIDES AND LOW TIDES.
In a fair discussion the questions are asked and views are expressed but to run away from the discussion without giving answers to the questions, with the excuse that articles are censored, is a sign of hypocrisy, childishness, lack of basic knowledge of the Quran and pride.
Before deciding to run away please answer my questions which I had already asked you.
PROVE THE RITUAL SALAT AND ITS DETAILS VIA THE QURAN (DO NOT QUOTE HADITH OR OTHER SOURCE
PROVE IN 2239 "WHAT IS THE FEAR"
PROVE THAT VERSE 4100 AND 101 IS REVEALED IN THE CONTEXT OF TRAVEL.
DEMONSTRATE THE TRAVEL PRAYER ON HORSE OR CAMEL OR DONKEY. HOW YOU PERFORM IT OR HOW THE PROPHET PERFORMED.
PROVE THAT WE HAVE TO FACE A PARTICULAR QIBLAH DURING THE PRAYER VIA QURAN.
TAKE MY CHALLENGE. NEITHER YOU NOR YOUR TEAM OF RENOWNED ARABIST CAN ANSWER ANY OF THE ABOVE QUESTIONS
When my article is finished, p2p reviewed by a team of renowned Arabists, and publicized, then you may ponder on your reaction.
In Hindi / Urdu language there is a phrase "ANDHON MEIN KAANA RAAJAA" (A EYED BLIND IS THE KING AMONG THE BLINDS)"
IF YOUR TEAM OF ARABIST GIVES YOU A GREEN SIGNAL TO YOUR ARTICLE AFTER REVIEWING IT THEN THE ABOVE PHRASE APPLIES TO YOU AND YOUR TEAM OF ARABIST.
I have said earlier I was not going to write here anymore, cause of censorship. So that you know.
WHAT A LAME EXCUSE TO RUN AWAY FROM A FAIR DISCUSSION. TAKE THE EXAMPLE OF DR. ZAKIR NAIK, (ALTHOUGH I DISLIKE HIM FOR UPHOLDING THE HADITH) HOW HE STANDS FIRM TO ANSWER A BARRAGE OF QUESTIONS SHOWERED ON HIM BY THE AUDIENCES. He never said to any audience that his questions are invalid and bizarre but tried to convince them through his knowledge based on Quran Hadith and common sense.
I need not ponder over my reaction because I know where I stand, but by reading your article on SALAT it took me only seconds to know that you do not have the basic knowledge of the Quran. If you had the knowledge of the Quran you would have answered my questions and made me silent. On the contrary you have decided to run away with a childish excuse. I really feel pity for you and your team of renowned Arabist who are backing you.
Next time when you jump in a sea please make sure you know how to swim in high and low tides
Thanks
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@ Nazzam, hafeez kazi,
Salam. Please forget your ego and stop fighting. We can learn from your discussion. Seems Nazzam is a knowledgeable man and we can overlook his boasting for the knowledge he posseses.
I think there is a computer glitch , no body is cesuring Nazzam.
Thank you both.
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Salaam hafeez.
Your points are not invalid cause I cant answer them; the lack of my elaboration on your ridiculous remarks is not the lack of an answer. It would be a lack of efficiency if I did.
As I said, this is a very good example of a major problem perceived among 'sola-scriptura' moslims; the discourse is over represented by people who by far do not posses even the basic competences to treat the subject.
Your baseless and truly embarrassing rantings, many of which are totally unknown to the rules of Arabic grammar or etymology, are way out of the league of this topic, and quickly betray your lack of knowledge of not only Arabic, but also a sound methodology and even English.
I mean, your remarks on 4101 and the preposition 'min', I mean o my God or the utter nonsense concerning 'fear' in 2239 and your ridiculous question 'prove what is fear', come on. Lifting the tip off your lack of sound methodology with the remarks 'I agree', I mean... its not about agreement at all! You can not even count, bringing you to the conclusion that in 11114 only two salaats are mentioned regardless of the grammatical rules which hit you in the face and give you a technical knock-out, I mean, oh my God what is this where I have landed in. Not to mention the virtual mess about the meaning of the word 'wusta'... its truly sad.
If I would waste my time and energy on every arrogant ignoramus, I would have to charge money for it and become rich in no time.
As for your last remark, it applies to you when you ditched the sunna. You dont know what you have started with, you underestimated the implications, and now you think you are a scholar cause u have a fixed view. Guess what, its not about views and becoming a scholar means paying 10 thousand euros at least and study at a renowned university, being subjected to methodologies which have been tested and fine tuned over and over and over again, being exam-ed therein and proving ur competence. Its about ascertainment through research which is subject to sound methodology. Perhaps you are better off with your friend Zakir Naik, and his speech about his 'fact of evolution' game of semantics, you certainly fit into his characterization of 'reasoning'.
Many people think that learning Arabic is enough to understand the quran (originally it was), but data is only one side of the coin.
Without a sound methodology, data is worthless. Tens of thousands of sunni and shia clergymen throughout history prove this point.
Theoretically speaking, knowing Arabic (which you clearly do not) would suffice to understand the quran. Would it not that Arabic
- Has been contaminated by theologic terminologization
- Has been contaminated by popular terminologization
- Needs the application of different methodologies in semitic studies to recover the meanings of many words which have been twisted by the above mentioned processes
- Needs to be approached professionally instead of by amateurs because of the above mentioned processes
- Can only be effectively understood and applied by people who are aware of the above mentioned and live up to its demands.
After these steps, the difficulties do not end. Now you have to analyze the text using a sound methdology which deals with ontological and epistemological questions, and practicing a multi-disciplinary approach (thats why the quran encourages to learn from creation in order to understand the implications of the quran) to get as much as understanding from the quran as one can.
The language barrier which has been created, must be teared down together with invalid methodology first before one can analyze the text. And in the process, all incompetent actors have to be strictly kept away from the discourse created.
All the claims of egoism or whatever on my side; being clear against nonsense is not any of that. Its justified and should be the norm.
@Man of Faith;
Focus on the arguments, not on the person behind them. You fail too in practicing a working methodology to filter relevant data from nonsense.
I dont believe glitches are person-specific.
No one here can ever invalidate my conclusions, and that is not because they are mine, it is because they are in line with the data available and the research conducted.
Unfortunately you can not verify all my argumentation, reasoning and proof, but that isnt even necessary. We are not discussing rocket science here. The subject of salaat is not the major difficult subject sola-scriptura muslims do not seem to be able to clear out because of some reason. This assumption only lives at the ignorant. With all the indicators I have left behind, anyone should be able to reconstruct what I have concluded (be it that their methodology is scientific and their knowledge of Arabic is sufficient).
Sounds arrogant? So be it. I find it as arrogant as stating the world is round. It may insult a lot of people, that then is their problem.
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The only discussions which are worthy my consideration and time, are those I have with fellow colleagues and professors who are demonstrably competent in these area's.
I agree with much of what you say, but your delivery is awful (no offense intended)
Are your posts directed at your colleagues and professors here at free minds, or are
you addressing your colleagues, professors and us common folk?Please continue with your dissertation, but for the sake of the audience give up the
snarling, offensive arrogance if you can, but if you cannot, then continue anyway.God bless
peace
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peace,
I dont believe glitches are person-specific.
No one here can ever invalidate my conclusions, and that is not because they are mine, it is because they are in line with the data available and the research conducted.
Unfortunately you can not verify all my argumentation, reasoning and proof, but that isnt even necessary. We are not discussing rocket science here. The subject of salaat is not the major difficult subject sola-scriptura muslims do not seem to be able to clear out because of some reason. This assumption only lives at the ignorant. With all the indicators I have left behind, anyone should be able to reconstruct what I have concluded (be it that their methodology is scientific and their knowledge of Arabic is sufficient).
Let us know when you have an evidenced rebuttal ;D
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Peace...
Guess what, its not about views and becoming a scholar means paying 10 thousand euros at least and study at a renowned university, being subjected to methodologies which have been tested and fine tuned over and over and over again, being exam-ed therein and proving ur competence.
What if those tested methodologies are not as good as you think? At least they were constructed by the same people who even stick to stupid hearsay stories which btw actually state that the earth is not round. Shouldn't this make you think?
But if you like academic methodology so much, which isn't a bad thing of course, you should love the precise methodologies you learn by studying mathematics. Mathematical methodologies are absolutely superior to those of so called human sciences which are a little wishy-washy from the perspective of a mathematician.
Brother Ayman has a mathematical Ph.D. and he draws totally different conclusions than you do. This is because in mathematics you learn to use logic in its purest form and unfortunately academics from human sciences seem to lack this logic very frequently.
Please study brother Aymans works in Arabic and let us know what you think http//www.quran4peace.org/
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Salaam,
I regret what I just wrote. Sorry for the inconvenience.
God bless you
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Theoretically speaking, knowing Arabic (which you clearly do not) would suffice to understand the quran. Would it not that Arabic
- Has been contaminated by theologic terminologization
- Has been contaminated by popular terminologization
- Needs the application of different methodologies in semitic studies to recover the meanings of many words which have been twisted by the above mentioned processes
- Needs to be approached professionally instead of by amateurs because of the above mentioned processes
- Can only be effectively understood and applied by people who are aware of the above mentioned and live up to its demands.
After these steps, the difficulties do not end. Now you have to analyze the text using a sound methdology which deals with ontological and epistemological questions, and practicing a multi-disciplinary approach (thats why the quran encourages to learn from creation in order to understand the implications of the quran) to get as much as understanding from the quran as one can.
That is very important!
@Timur,
Thank you for the link, the two parts are very interesting and good, pity there is no section about the Salat.peace
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No one here can ever invalidate my conclusions, and that is not because they are mine, it is because they are in line with the data available and the research conducted.
Unfortunately you can not verify all my argumentation, reasoning and proof, but that isnt even necessary.
I am only responding here because you sound extremely arrogant , and it shows that you didn't learned much from your conclusions .I don't know if you didn't realize that yet .
Even if you have exclusively the keys of the heaven your attitude is simply very Poor
Are you sure no one here can invalidate u'r conclusions ?
Are you sure all you conclusions are 100 % correct ?
Are you sure you miss nothing ?
Are you sure your attitude and arrogance is for someone who hold knowledge and guide people to the right path ?No need to say ad hominenm or bla bla bla cause i'll show you some of your invalid conclusions , and just to tell you most of what you concluded been said here or known by many , anyway you add nothing new to my knowledge i just feel sick when i read your arrogance and your lake of humility . do you know that what you think you posses as knowledge value nothing simply because of u'r attitude ?
Regarding u'r so called academic level which you throw here and there as reference , the one who bring and spread this message and the knowledge, which you think you are the only possessor , never put foots in a formal school !
Anyway , wait for some arguments.
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Peace GODsubmitter.
@Timur,
Thank you for the link, the two parts are very interesting and good, pity there is no section about the Salat.There is, but unforunately only in Arabic at the moment (this one http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-part3.pdf). Brother Ayman has promised a translation but it is not finished yet.
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Peace GODsubmitter.
There is, but unforunately only in Arabic at the moment (this one http//www.quran4peace.org/documents/Quran4peace-part3.pdf). Brother Ayman has promised a translation but it is not finished yet.
Thank you very much for your answer.
Will wait for the English translation.@Alkitab, stop promising your promised answers in most of your posts, just give some concrete arguments please!
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Hi people!
It is better to pray alone (755, 2271), in order to prevent the susceptibility for vanity, arrogance and pride(7206). This will ease praying in humbleness and submission (231-2).
Would you kindly let us know how this experience of praying alone worked out for you? Do you think you are a more humble person now than before you did your research on salat? After all we are not only interested in what salat is but also like to know how a particular version of salat can bring in measurable changes in a person that contributes towards positive moral development.
Perhaps some day, my whole article, complete with all substantiations, reasoning and proof, will be presented here.
Until that day arrives, my suggestion would be for you to focus on the verses you have quoted above. That you have spent 1000s of Euros learning your trade is of no value to the forum members. This information contributes nothing to the discussion of salat. Instead of claiming to have used a certain methodology please share it to that we can learn from it. In the academic circles, your opening post of claiming to have found the holy grail of salat would be laughed at simply because it lacks in substance. Try getting an article titled 'I know what salat is and I will share it with the rest of you Ignoramuses soon' published in a peer reviewed journal and see how that works out for you.
If you claim to be a professional, please act like one and post your finished product. Until then, you really should not be adding anything to this thread simply because it is clear you do not have the skills to engage in a respectful debate with your fellow forum members. You should also learn the distinction between a public forum from an academic one. It was your choice to start a thread here and not the other way around. If you consider the members here to be incompetent, simply do not post and go back to your friends in the academia where livelihoods are a function of remaining politically correct and not venturing far away from the mainstream.
The only rational response to this post would be for you to post your finished article. Anything else would be construed as fftopic
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Would you kindly let us know how this experience of praying alone worked out for you? Do you think you are a more humble person now than before you did your research on salat? After all we are not only interested in what salat is but also like to know how a particular version of salat can bring in measurable changes in a person that contributes towards positive moral development.
Until that day arrives, my suggestion would be for you to focus on the verses you have quoted above. That you have spent 1000s of Euros learning your trade is of no value to the forum members. This information contributes nothing to the discussion of salat. Instead of claiming to have used a certain methodology please share it to that we can learn from it. In the academic circles, your opening post of claiming to have found the holy grail of salat would be laughed at simply because it lacks in substance. Try getting an article titled 'I know what salat is and I will share it with the rest of you Ignoramuses soon' published in a peer reviewed journal and see how that works out for you.
If you claim to be a professional, please act like one and post your finished product. Until then, you really should not be adding anything to this thread simply because it is clear you do not have the skills to engage in a respectful debate with your fellow forum members. You should also learn the distinction between a public forum from an academic one. It was your choice to start a thread here and not the other way around. If you consider the members here to be incompetent, simply do not post and go back to your friends in the academia where livelihoods are a function of remaining politically correct and not venturing far away from the mainstream.
The only rational response to this post would be for you to post your finished article. Anything else would be construed as offtopic
Hang on, is this guy saying that he knows best because he's written an academic piece on whatever he's written about. I hope not. Every idiot has a PhD these days.
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Salaam es,
This guy is knows best in the entire world. You have to listen to what he has to say.
God bless you
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Salam
The purpose of this post is simply a slight pinch for the so called academician so he may act less arrogantly , even if i am doubting that he will re-appear in this forum , even if i am sure he is using and will still using comparatively the research and the study of many knowledgeable , humble , and unassuming members in this forum . In his case i'll be ashamed to show up again , only if he change his pseudo or simply change his exaggerated disgusting arrogance
Sounds arrogant? So be it. I find it as arrogant as stating the world is round. It may insult a lot of people, that then is their problem.
Some hint you may re-think about your academic methodology and your professors
Arguments n?1
- Salat exists out of 3 physical postures; qiyam (standing), ruku3 (bowing), sujud (kneeling down) which are implemented 4 times qiyam-ruku-qiyam-sujud.
ruk3/ do not mean bowing
There is no 2nd qiyam simply because there is no bowing , this is the traditional ruk3 explication which he is claiming not using in favor of the academic methodology , The academician is wrongly pointing to this positionhttp//imageshack.us/a/img23/3199/b7rk.jpg
The wrong position of ruk3/ there should be a knelling down on the ground not a 90 degree inclination .3824 said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down on his kneel and turned in repentance .
The verse is saying that David fell down / khr knelling , the position in the image above there is no fell down / khr it's about a smooth , gentle inclination , what happen if someone or something fell down / khr
1626 (Those before them had already plotted, but Allah came at their building from the foundations, so the roof fell upon / khr them from above them, and the punishment came to them from where they did not perceive.)
http//imageshack.us/a/img138/3908/hpnb.jpg
Does the roof by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position ?
3414 (And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell down (khr), it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment.)
Does Solomon by using the verb fell down / khr fell down completely into the ground or inclined in a 90 degree position when he was dead, ?
So by using the verb fell down / khr in 3824 it's clear that the position of ruk3/ is about knelling into the ground
http//imageshack.us/a/img692/6801/idp7.jpg
The position of ruk3/ there is a knelling down on the groundThe word ruk3/ contain the key element of this position , which are the two sounds / letters r and k ruk3/
http//imageshack.us/a/img834/9408/ypo7.gif
The root rk / in the action of ruk3/ are indicating the movment of the kneel /al-rkbatyen the single of rkbah / one single kneeThis root rk we find it an all action that need the movement of the kneel /al-rkbatyen ex
rakd / to run ...as you are uzing mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to run
rakl / to kick . ... as you are using mostley your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kick something or somebody
ruku3 / to kneel .... as you are using your knee / al-rkbatyen in movement to kneel down@Godsubmitter , have patient and do not tolerate arrogance in any case
To be continued
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Peace Brother Alkitab
Excellent
First time explained in words, drawings and images.
Frankly speaking I do not believe, that in the Quran, all the occurences of the word Ruku and Khirr are pertaining to physical movements and my belief is based on the following verses.
And those who, when reminded of the verses of their Lord, do not fall (PHYSICALLY) upon them deaf and blind 2573
I believe that the word FALL is used as a metaphor.
O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277
Is success guaranteed against simply physical bowing and prostrating?
In the above verse I believe that Ruku is Humbleness and Sujud is Submission
O you who have believed, be HUMBLE and SUBMIT (to the will of your Lord) and serve your Lord and do good - that you may succeed 2277
Your ally is none but Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed. Those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they are those who bow down 555
The bowers are those who establish the prayer and give Zakat. Do you find any logic in this interpretation? Bowing is a part of the Ritual Salat then why a separate command for BOWING? It means that those who do not give Zakat (commonly poor people and women) do not bow down. What Zakat has to do with the physical bowing? All those who bow in prayers do establish the prayers and give Zakat? Really confusing?
I want to know your views. Do you believe what I believe or you have your own definition of these words.
Thanks.
