Adultery punishment

truthsearcher

Hi all. I have two questions for you

1.What is punishment for adultery in quran ? Is it 100 lashes or house arrest ?

Does this part of verse (with bold) approve verses abrogation which is supported by sunni muslims?
415
any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

"Allah ordain for them some (other) way"- does this mean that after this verse God sent a "better verse" and we should not follow this verse ?

unknownuser

Salam

My answer is

100 lashes is for adultery act (zina), while house arrest is for a woman who commit lewdness
In verse 415, the word lewdness in Arabic is , means lewdness, obsenity, filthy, pornoaction etc
Lewdness and adultery is diffferent things.

Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

230 " ......"
He (God) said ?I know what you do not know.?

huruf

There have been several threads about 4.15. I could not know offhand which, but I think htat searching they would be found. The matter is very detailed in those threads.

As to illicit sexual relationships between man and woman, the 24 Sura is quite clear. It deals with both trnasgressors, the male nad the female. There is not hint that there is any extra penalty or any different penalty provided for males or females. How can there be any doubt after readint he first ayas of Sur 24?

As to 4.15 it is clear as far as I can see that it is not dealing with any penalty but with taking care of women who do the street into homes and maintaining them off the street in their homes to the community's cost till they die or till they find anocer source of subsistence. No to forget that historically and even today most women are into prostitution beause they need to feed their children or their family.

Salaam

drfazl

Punishment for adultery

242
The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.

The bold part of the ayat is the mandatory necessity ordained by Allah before the punishment is carried out. A party of "True Mumins" shall be witness to the punishment. Who is a true mumin or believer? Here Allah lists out the possessors and keepers of the 10 under mentioned qualities as mumins or believers. They shall know well beyond doubt the meanings of the bold parts of each verse and it is most essential they should be practically living as a model to all the qualities here.

Successful indeed are the believers.
They who are during their prayer humbly submissive
And they who turn away from ill speech
And they who are observant of purity
And those who guard their chastity
Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors
And they who are true to their trusts and to their covenants
Those are indeed the inheritors
And they who carefully maintain their prayers

Such of those who have these qualities inherently well established in their hearts and the same reflecting in their lives and adjudged by Allah shall be he witness to the punishment. And a party of such mumins should alone pronounce the judgement in one voice without ambiguity. Only now you are sure to carry out the punishment.

Who has such authority to judge each of the party members, witnessing the punishment as mumins? If there is one who claims to have such authority to judge for sure then he considers him to be God; and then if such heavenly people should be judged by the other ordinary masses, then Allah's authority is rejected outright. Who dares to call himself a mumin and pass judgement on himself as belonging to heaven and he can judge another party as 'mumin' ahead of God?

Now you judge who can wield the first flogging! He is bound to go to hell and all the party of so called 'mumins' are also hell bound.

huruf

Punishment for adultery

242
The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.

The bold part of the ayat is the mandatory necessity ordained by Allah before the punishment is carried out. A party of "True Mumins" shall be witness to the punishment. Who is a true mumin or believer? Here Allah lists out the possessors and keepers of the 10 under mentioned qualities as mumins or believers. They shall know well beyond doubt the meanings of the bold parts of each verse and it is most essential they should be practically living as a model to all the qualities here.

Successful indeed are the believers.
They who are during their prayer humbly submissive
And they who turn away from ill speech
And they who are observant of purity
And those who guard their chastity
Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed
But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors
And they who are true to their trusts and to their covenants
Those are indeed the inheritors
And they who carefully maintain their prayers

Such of those who have these qualities inherently well established in their hearts and the same reflecting in their lives and adjudged by Allah shall be he witness to the punishment. And a party of such mumins should alone pronounce the judgement in one voice without ambiguity. Only now you are sure to carry out the punishment.

Who has such authority to judge each of the party members, witnessing the punishment as mumins? If there is one who claims to have such authority to judge for sure then he considers him to be God; and then if such heavenly people should be judged by the other ordinary masses, then Allah's authority is rejected outright. Who dares to call himself a mumin and pass judgement on himself as belonging to heaven and he can judge another party as 'mumin' ahead of God?

Now you judge who can wield the first flogging! He is bound to go to hell and all the party of so called 'mumins' are also hell bound.

Well that is an outstanding post. Many or probably most us now know why they would never like to witness such a thing and have struggled with it.

In fact, as christians have often thrown on our faces that Jesus said to the adulteress whoever is free of sin let him throw the first stone, there is in Qur'an the equivalent. I never stop wondering what has made muslim societies become so blind to the light of the Qur'an, precisely, yes, the sura An-nur. Still blabbering about women's dress for an aya which they find open to draw whatever they like and on the other hand all the ayas dealing with slander and defamation which precede that and which are quite damning do not draw any debate or worry. And yes, those ayas come also right after those about zina. Selective enjoyment it seems.

Hope we start the way of true and sincere feelings of concern for others and of consciousness of how we are so, so so incredible far from being even a little powerful at all to dare distribute punishments and prohibitions and obligations as if we could or knew. Alhamdulil-lah we are not powerful.

Salaam

noshirk

salam
zina has no relation with sex for me.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605270.0

No constraint in religion and we cannot punish others for what they do in their homes without harming anyone

Peace

DrGm

Well that is an outstanding post. Many or probably most us now know why they would never like to witness such a thing and have struggled with it.

In fact, as christians have often thrown on our faces that Jesus said to the adulteress whoever is free of sin let him throw the first stone, there is in Qur'an the equivalent. I never stop wondering what has made muslim societies become so blind to the light of the Qur'an, precisely, yes, the sura An-nur. Still blabbering about women's dress for an aya which they find open to draw whatever they like and on the other hand all the ayas dealing with slander and defamation which precede that and which are quite damning do not draw any debate or worry. And yes, those ayas come also right after those about zina. Selective enjoyment it seems.

Hope we start the way of true and sincere feelings of concern for others and of consciousness of how we are so, so so incredible far from being even a little powerful at all to dare distribute punishments and prohibitions and obligations as if we could or knew. Alhamdulil-lah we are not powerful.

Salaam

peace,

well said

peace

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I think I am going to agree with noshirk. It seems ungodly to punish adulterers this way. However, since I am of the critical type I will need to research the whole thing a bit more.

This punishment is not being dealt these days anyway and it seems not utterly important to solve this puzzle. But of course it would be significant to clear God's name of barbarism.

God bless you

Zulf

Very good post drfazl!! Great thought process!

I'm always amazed at people who take for granted that they are the holy ones, the pure ones, the guided ones, the truthful ones, the winners, the inheritors, the saved ones. It's sickening.

Arrogance is indeed the biggest component of the human race, alongside other characteristics like shocking stupidity, unbelievable cruelty and heartlessness.

It's so funny to see the holy ones claim that adversity falling on them is a trial and test from God (with a reward around the corner) , while adversity falling on others (especially those of other religions or atheists..) is a punishment from God. What marvelous and consistent logic. yuck brickwall

Apart from that, I'm starting to wonder what 'believe' and 'believer' really means. I'm seriously beginning to doubt that it is just to say that you believe in a God. I think 'believing' has more to do with "sensing a grander reality behind the apparent physical world, even without being able to put a name on it"... and also "to do good deeds for the sake of goodness, justice, fairness and promotion of life, and not for personal gain". Perhaps there are many people out there that are believers, or at least with a strong foundation, but do not claim to believe in God because of all the evil and hypocrisy they have seen created by the religious institutions. Because of religions, God is made to look like an unpredictable and confusing super-human character with all sorts of emotions. Obviously one does not feel like believing in that. That's a farce. I think religious people and atheists alike have serious misconceptions about what God is and how God "does" things. The way I see it, the most sensible character to me is an intelligent atheist which believes in the unseen and an entity that can be called God. Sound like a paradox? Well, such a paradox is probably more sensible than most things we see in life.

Peace

Also,

drfazl

........ The way I see it, the most sensible character to me is an intelligent atheist which believes in the unseen and an entity that can be called God. Sound like a paradox? Well, such a paradox is probably more sensible than most things we see in life.

Peace

Also............,

Salam. Zulf, I think part of your post is missing in the end.....

Salam

quranflea

Hi all. I have two questions for you

1.What is punishment for adultery in quran ? Is it 100 lashes or house arrest ?

Does this part of verse (with bold) approve verses abrogation which is supported by sunni muslims?
415
any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

"Allah ordain for them some (other) way"- does this mean that after this verse God sent a "better verse" and we should not follow this verse ?

peace

according to 242 the punishment for adultery is 100x lashes (both to male and female)
"or god makes for them a way" (415), for example her husband divorce her so she hasn't being confined for life. that's a way from god.

Lena

Adultery is sexual intercourse with a married person.
Illegal sexual intercourse is having sex with someone below the legal age or committing incest.
Fornication and lewdness - having sex with anyone (and everyone) with no committment.

Ma malakat aymanukum = what your right hands possess = those who are rightfully yours.
Is it against God's Quranic laws to have sex with a boyfriend / girlfriend who is rightfully yours i.e not in the categories 1, 2, 3 above?

unknownuser

salam
zina has no relation with sex for me.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605270.0

No constraint in religion and we cannot punish others for what they do in their homes without harming anyone

Peace

In that thread what bro noshirk's fault is he claim the word zania came from root znn, but actually z-nun -ya' .Thus

.

I forget to reply your past post and the main reason of bro noshirk reject zina=adultery is this.
In that Arabic lisan, the word zannah-zannan suspect it/him or accusing.

I dont know how to read Lisan al Arab properly, but in another dictionaries zana still refers to adultery.

Example There is terminology such like (zna al-mahram) means incest.

Peace

quranflea

Ma malakat aymanukum = what your right hands possess = those who are rightfully yours.
Is it against God's Quranic laws to have sex with a boyfriend / girlfriend who is rightfully yours i.e not in the categories 1, 2, 3 above?

Your girlfriend is NOT your possession. She is a free people with her full of right.

Person who fit the "ma malakat aymanukum" category is slave. And yes you may have sex with YOUR OWN slave. To have sex with someone else slave, you have to marry her first.

unknownuser

Person who fit the "ma malakat aymanukum" category is slave. And yes you may have sex with YOUR OWN slave. To have sex with someone else slave, you have to marry her first.

Then how about "malakat aymanukum" in verse 2431??
This is the basic of "malakat aymankum LiNK

To who we must maintain the oath, posses right hand is not limited on slave, I'm still on research, but if you have an idea I appreciate this.

Salam

quranflea

Then how about "malakat aymanukum" in verse 2431??

To who we must maintain the oath, posses right hand is not limited on slave, I'm still on research, but if you have an idea I appreciate this.

Salam

there is no issue if we consider "malakat aymanukum" in 2431 as slave.

ayman (right hand) refer to power/authority. "malak" is possess.
the keyword is actually "malak/possess".
what kind of people is possessed by other people? Answer slave.

our wife, our maid, our worker is not our possession.

peace

huruf

So, possession and that is it? Why then the mention of the right hand? Means nothing? It does nto modify anything that it is there or not?

Anything when it comes to pander some egos.

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I got an idea; maybe the "right hand" expression relates to actions which leads to receiving the final record in your right hand on the Judgment Day and this argument is probably a metaphor. The other, traditional argument, sounds illogical in my opinion. I am not sure if this opens up for premarital relationships though, but I have always felt that the traditional understanding is of humanly origin and not from God.

Courtship I have wondered about and if God really forbids you to meet your potential future wife and socialize with her so that you are sure you make the right decision while you decide to marry her. As it is in traditional Islam you can barely meet your wife before marriage and get to know her. I did not mean it is okay with premarital sex, only verbal communication and activities.

But if you have an intention to marry the wife I think it is okay to have sex. Also you can loosely understand this to be the real "wedding ceremony" or final bond in the Biblical passages which are several thousand years old. I also understood that if you have premarital sex with a woman you have to marry her.

Also I have never believed that you own your wife or other humans in God's system and this is just a patriarchal invention.

God bless you

diamantinehoneybunch

Your girlfriend is NOT your possession. She is a free people with her full of right.

Person who fit the "ma malakat aymanukum" category is slave. And yes you may have sex with YOUR OWN slave. To have sex with someone else slave, you have to marry her first.

You really remind me of a member named siki on here.
Where in the Quran does it say you can have sex with your own MMA? 425 disproves your argument.
Women may also have their own MMAs as per Qur'an. So according to you Qur'an also permits women to have sex with their MMAs?

Lena

I understood the Arabic word Abd can mean servant as well as slave. If it does refer to slavery, how can it be just, righteous or acceptable for a person to even have slaves if freedom and justice is the core values of Islam?

Re having sex with their slaves / servants, is it required that slaves / servants first give consent to having sex with their owners or are owners allowed to rape their slaves / servants?? Does it apply to female owners of slaves or only the male owners? Can there even be true consent in such a relationship when all the power is held by the owner? Isn't consenting sex between 2 adults who love each more appropriate than having sex with slaves?
There are still countries where slavery is occurring today such as Mauritania and Niger. Slavery is a gross human rights abuse. How do we reconcile that with other Quranic values of peace, justice, freedom? Is it possible that "what your right hand possesses" is not literal in terms of actually possessing someone (owning), but a term which covers relationships that are considered legal and lawful?